Domestic Violence

[girlx]

i know this topic has been posted before but i couldn't find it.... i know the women on here decry the thai men's reputation of being abusive with their women, but in my experience about 70% of the thai men with farang girlfriends or wives that i know (that is, 7 of the 10 mixed relationships i am closest to) beat their partner regularly. i have been lucky enough not to end up with one of them- my thai boyfriends have been violent in their speech but have never tried to hit me.

now i have a friend who married into the biggest family on this island. i have always really disliked the guy she married. but he was a monk for 11 years and just about everyone here is related to him, and he has decent money, which means he gets a lot of respect. the girl is really ignorant- she grew up in a very religious family in england, went to bible school, very conservative and traditional, doesn't know much at all about the real world, never mind thai culture. she got pregnant early in her life, but never married her child's father. she came on holiday with her kid (now 7) to thailand 2 years ago- met this thai guy, and never returned home. her kid has been going to the local thai school ('god' help him), and since she married this boyfriend shortly after she arrived, she has invested lots of money into his business and her father has given his family enough money to build 5 houses on his land that he can rent out in future. i am quite convinced this is the only reason why a thai guy from a big traditional family would be allowed to married a farang girl with a child. i tried to warn her of this in the beginning but she wouldn't listen. they were together about 3 months before the marriage decision.

now 2 years later, the shit has hit the fan. he is the most horrifically controlling person i have ever met (and i come from a background of abuse). absolutely every single thing she does he will tell her she is doing wrong and that she is stupid, and he will come over and show her how to re-do it his way. he constantly humiliates her, even in public, so much so that if she expresses her opinion in a group, he will say "can you please shut your mouth and go sit over there until i am finished speaking to these people"... he also grabs her by the ears and back of the neck to make her follow him places etc. she is an emotional wreck and recently put herself on prozac out of desperation (which he snatched away from her and refused to let her take). i have known for a long time this guy was at least emotionally abusive to her, but have just now gotten evidence that he is also physically abusive, and possibly sexually abusive. some of it is things she has said to me recently, but also an event in which he punched her 3 times in front of her kid and another friend of mine.

now like i said, i know lots of girls getting abused by their boyfriends here, but the difference is that most of them haven't put up with it and their situations have since changed. this girl has been brainwashed to think that in thai culture, women are the man's property and thus are supposed to obey his every need. she thinks it is perfectly acceptable to be beaten because she is wrong, and she doesn't believe that she can get help. she also says that her religion and family have taught her that when she marries someone, she has to stay with him no matter what. now, ok, i can try to understand that, but what about the kid? what if this gets so bad that he eventually puts her in hospital or kills her, or her son? is she still going to stay with him because her religion dictates it? her bright idea now is to move them all in with his mother on the other side of the island, because she says thai culture dictates that that is the best move. this means she will be moving away from all her farang friends and her only support network. my feeling is this family will turn a blind eye to anything that happens to her and she will be moving out of the frying pan into the fire.

i know this is not really my business, and i am trying not to get involved (especially since it is the biggest family where i live), but i have spent a good portion of my life trying to deal with my own abuse (and succeeding), and i really feel i should use my own experience to try to help this girl see there is a big problem and it is not her fault, and she does not have to force herself or her kid to be in this situation. is there anything at all i can do? what would you suggest?

[JimmyTheMook]

i know this is not really my business, and i am trying not to get involved

This seems to be the norm with Thai guys. There is a couple near us where the wife gets a beating every week and "sometimes" the police come but do not arrest anyone.

Another double standard because if a Farang were to beat his Thai wife he would be locked up.

IMO only a coward would hit a woman, might be from growing up with a bunch of sisters that I feel this way.

[girlx]

yeah- i don't know if it is the norm in general but it seems to be the majority where i live now, and also where i lived before (koh chang).

[Nienke]

Another double standard because if a Farang were to beat his Thai wife he would be locked up.

And if a Farang woman beats back her Thai bf/hubby? Does she ends up in jail as well?

IMO only a coward would hit a woman, ...

Although, I certainly don't want to talk this good, but sometimes you don't know what drives a person to do something like that. It can very well be that such a man has had an abusing past as well, and walks aound with psychological problems.

It does happen when both partners go for consultation, things can talked over and through, and with help they can solve their problems (including that the beatings stop).

The power game, as described in the OP, has only become this bad, because the woman doesn't fight back. She excepts everything the man does, and in no way puts up boundaries. If she would start putting up boundaries now, the chance is high that the abuse first becomes worse (as the man had always succes before). When she keeps up those boundaries, it might be that after a while the abuse lessens untill the point it stops, or until she leaves.

I can understand girlx's fustration and fear about what is going to happen to this woman and her child. But, if the woman herself is not prepared or ready to stand up for herself, I'm afraid there is not much you can do.

You could talk yourself to one of the organisations against women abuse (see one of the other threads on this forum). And ask them what the possibilities are.

Wish you good luck,

Nienke

[buddhafly]

this is sad.

the only answer i can come up with is to find the next up on the power chain to this guy. who does he respect or look up to. there must be a father or big brother or local mafia headman who can be approached. that person must be convinced of the severity of the situation. then that guy must have a serious talk with mr abusive.

[girlx]

hmm that will be difficult- she is starting to see herself that there is a problem but she really tries to keep up the facade of a perfect marriage and insisting she can handle it. as nienke said it might have to get worse before it gets better. i feel really bad for her.

P.S. can anyone refer me to those links to abuse help organizations in thailand?

Edited May 13, 2007 by girlx

[aussiestyle1983]

Is her father gave her loads of money to buy houses for the guy's family, I'm sure they could pay enough to someone to have him vanish, for good. If she wants out, she has to be brave enough to leave or deal with him, on the other hand, if she is too stupid to do anything about the situation and continues letting him treat her this way, she only has her self to blame

[LaReina]

Well get some video taped footage of her being abused, or lead around by the ears or something like that.

Then, send it to her folks in England.. and let them hop on the first plane and get their daughter.

With her state of mind, they may have to stage an intervention.

Good luck!

[Nienke]

hmm that will be difficult- she is starting to see herself that there is a problem but she really tries to keep up the facade of a perfect marriage and insisting she can handle it. as nienke said it might have to get worse before it gets better. i feel really bad for her.

P.S. can anyone refer me to those links to abuse help organizations in thailand?

Hi girlx,

I was referring to the following thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=112667

There is a list with women organisations.

At least there is some hope as she starts seeing herself that this situation isn't normal.

Wish you good luck again. It's really horrible to see a friend stuck like this.

Nienke

[Nienke]

Is her father gave her loads of money to buy houses for the guy's family, I'm sure they could pay enough to someone to have him vanish, for good. If she wants out, she has to be brave enough to leave or deal with him, on the other hand, if she is too stupid to do anything about the situation and continues letting him treat her this way, she only has her self to blame

It is always so easy to judge, isn't it?

[taxexile]

It does happen when both partners go for consultation, things can talked over and through, and with help they can solve their problems (including that the beatings stop).

this is a small island off the coast of surratthani , not san francisco.

i doubt if good counselling facilities exist there , and the police and courts arent likely to offer any help. and the family probably dont have too much respect for a single falang mother either.

her only way out of this is to leave him , but so often , women at the receiving end in abusive relationships seem to want to go back for more , or should i say , cant help themselves from going back for more.

she should take her child and leave and write off this period of her life.

p.s. your intentions might be good but dont get involved , you could make an enemy of the family and you could lose the friendship of the girl.

[aussiestyle1983]

Is her father gave her loads of money to buy houses for the guy's family, I'm sure they could pay enough to someone to have him vanish, for good. If she wants out, she has to be brave enough to leave or deal with him, on the other hand, if she is too stupid to do anything about the situation and continues letting him treat her this way, she only has her self to blame

It is always so easy to judge, isn't it?

We all have to live with the choices we make, also the ones (in her case) we don't make. I know she is in a hard situation, but it will only get worse and the longer she lets it play out the harder it will be for her to deal with. Unless her family comes here and saves her or her friends get together and take her away, she is going to have to deal with this on her own and it seems like she is not capable of doing so. Hopefully, her friends will help her get out, this would be one of the easiest solutions since her family is so far away, but unless her friends do this, I can't see much happening, the cops here are useless, her family is to far away (and do they know the extent of this problem?) and she can't help herself, so I hope to hel_l her friends pull her out. If the friends who are close to her and know what is happening don't do anything, that would be even more sad..........

Edited May 13, 2007 by aussiestyle1983

[fruittbatt]

i know this topic has been posted before but i couldn't find it.... i know the women on here decry the thai men's reputation of being abusive with their women, but in my experience about 70% of the thai men with farang girlfriends or wives that i know (that is, 7 of the 10 mixed relationships i am closest to) beat their partner regularly. i have been lucky enough not to end up with one of them- my thai boyfriends have been violent in their speech but have never tried to hit me.

now i have a friend who married into the biggest family on this island. i have always really disliked the guy she married. but he was a monk for 11 years and just about everyone here is related to him, and he has decent money, which means he gets a lot of respect. the girl is really ignorant- she grew up in a very religious family in england, went to bible school, very conservative and traditional, doesn't know much at all about the real world, never mind thai culture. she got pregnant early in her life, but never married her child's father. she came on holiday with her kid (now 7) to thailand 2 years ago- met this thai guy, and never returned home. her kid has been going to the local thai school ('god' help him), and since she married this boyfriend shortly after she arrived, she has invested lots of money into his business and her father has given his family enough money to build 5 houses on his land that he can rent out in future. i am quite convinced this is the only reason why a thai guy from a big traditional family would be allowed to married a farang girl with a child. i tried to warn her of this in the beginning but she wouldn't listen. they were together about 3 months before the marriage decision.

now 2 years later, the shit has hit the fan. he is the most horrifically controlling person i have ever met (and i come from a background of abuse). absolutely every single thing she does he will tell her she is doing wrong and that she is stupid, and he will come over and show her how to re-do it his way. he constantly humiliates her, even in public, so much so that if she expresses her opinion in a group, he will say "can you please shut your mouth and go sit over there until i am finished speaking to these people"... he also grabs her by the ears and back of the neck to make her follow him places etc. she is an emotional wreck and recently put herself on prozac out of desperation (which he snatched away from her and refused to let her take). i have known for a long time this guy was at least emotionally abusive to her, but have just now gotten evidence that he is also physically abusive, and possibly sexually abusive. some of it is things she has said to me recently, but also an event in which he punched her 3 times in front of her kid and another friend of mine.

now like i said, i know lots of girls getting abused by their boyfriends here, but the difference is that most of them haven't put up with it and their situations have since changed. this girl has been brainwashed to think that in thai culture, women are the man's property and thus are supposed to obey his every need. she thinks it is perfectly acceptable to be beaten because she is wrong, and she doesn't believe that she can get help. she also says that her religion and family have taught her that when she marries someone, she has to stay with him no matter what. now, ok, i can try to understand that, but what about the kid? what if this gets so bad that he eventually puts her in hospital or kills her, or her son? is she still going to stay with him because her religion dictates it? her bright idea now is to move them all in with his mother on the other side of the island, because she says thai culture dictates that that is the best move. this means she will be moving away from all her farang friends and her only support network. my feeling is this family will turn a blind eye to anything that happens to her and she will be moving out of the frying pan into the fire.

i know this is not really my business, and i am trying not to get involved (especially since it is the biggest family where i live), but i have spent a good portion of my life trying to deal with my own abuse (and succeeding), and i really feel i should use my own experience to try to help this girl see there is a big problem and it is not her fault, and she does not have to force herself or her kid to be in this situation. is there anything at all i can do? what would you suggest?

Hi Girlx,

and good for you for caring about this woman's sad situation.

If you know her well enough and are able to talk somewhere neutral (eg a cafe or somewhere gossips cannot observe or overhear) I would suggest that you explain to the woman that she and her son deserve much better than the abuse she is enduring from this man.

I would explain to her that even if she does not care too much about herself, the man's behaviour is modelling what it means to be a man for her son. Does she want her son to have this example, and probably abuse as well?

I would also tell her that domestic violence is not a static or isolated occurrence. In fact the common DV pattern is that it accelerates and becomes more intense, so she is in real physical as well as psychological danger. I am especially concerned that she is already depressed enough to be taking prozac rather than dealing with the problem.

She needs to see that she can - in fact MUST - leave for her own safety....and I agree with the poster who suggested that perhaps her parents need to be alerted to the situation and to intervene to get her out of there. The best news is that she has no kids with this man. Good luck, and I hope you'll get lots more helpful responses on this forum.

[girlx]

yeah i have tried to tell her already, but she is too embarassed to acknowledge the situation. if i can find any way of contacting her parents maybe i will try to do that. thanks for the tips!

[DrFisher]

I think anyone who resorts to violence does it because out of ignorance, lack of education or intelligence for that matter not to mention the way they may have been raised. After saying that I would remind you that Thais don't like us swimming in their soup and stirring things up. You are fortunate to have such nice people in you life and I wish you all the luck in the world in continuing your trend of non-abusive relationships.

[cmsally]

Seems like if this girl has moved in with his extended family then they are the best recourse to put a stop to it. If this isn't an option then it is really up to her, but sounds like she has really low self esteem.

I haven't had much experience of domestic abuse but the one case I know of first hand was a friend in UK who was beaten up by her French boyfriend. When it got bad it was her decision to leave and the first thing she didn't want to happen was for her parents to find out. 1 Because she thought her father might have killed him (didn't want father to get in trouble). 2. She wanted the end to be the end, so she left quickly and then went into hiding for a month (knew he would try and find her), so he couldn't find her and her bruises healed up.

I am not sure that you can safely interfere in these situations as an outsider , there is a lot of denial and often many interelated factors. No small part are her options if she leaves. Being a single mother with not much experience means you kind of have the cards stacked against you.

I once asked my friend what would have happened if we had of interfered with her and her boyfriend (whom many of us suspected as pretty nasty). She said that looking back on it she was always thinking something would change for the better, there was in fact an unbelievable optimism on her part. Not even she is sure what suddenly made that crumble away one day (although she does admit there was a recognition on her part, he might kill her), but she just packed up and left. But it was her decision totally, she doubts she would have listened to anyone else.

So you can see from my rambling that even the one case I know inside out , I never really understood. But one thing is, he did move her away from any friends and that is when it escalated. So I have a little doubt in my mind as to whether your friend's move over the island is her idea.

Although I find it a little strange that no one in his family would intervene.

[GuestHouse]

The second rule of coming to anyone's aid is to first ensure your own safety. That is true for diving into a river to save someone and it is absolutely true for diving into someone else's marriage.

You have already told us that the husband is connected, wealthy, related to almost everyone on the island where YOU ARE LIVING and that you believe the basis of the relationship is the money he can get out of his wife.

So TREAD EXTREMELY CAREFULLY. Get caught up in that mess and you might find you yourself are on the receiving end of a beating, or worse.

The first rule of rescuing someone is to determine if they actually want rescuing.

That is not to say that this woman is happy with being beaten, but she may for any number of reasons be happy with her sittuation.

However, what you discribe seems terrible and you are not wrong for wanting to help.

My advice would be to act behind the scenes and use the agency of others rather than put yourself at risk.

If you can get access to her parents address can you write to them and give them your concerns?

One option may be to bring the welfare of the child to the attention of the UK authorities. Ideally if you could find the contact details of the child's natural father, but also the grandparents.

If you can get her family to help her than by all means have a go, but I would advsise strongly against getting directly involved yourself.

If you threaten money, name, face or simply interfere you could bring the wrath of the guy and his family on you. And if that happens you'll have no support from any Thai authroities, including the Thai police.

Proceed with EXTREME CAUTION.

[MiG16]

again....lots of practical advice, what groups to contact etc, tips on alerting her parents, or how to coax her have well been given by many members

so I will just add that whats really important as a first step is that your friend is given some counselling help. when it comes to domestic violence, it is not only outsiders and police etc that tend to treat is with little attention, but most often the problem lies with that victims/survivors themselves are not ready to see it for what it is. in all cultures, not just asian but particularly more so in asian countries, this is regarded as a family matter not to be shared with others. add to that many people's tendency to blame themselves when things go wrong, you almost invarably end up with women victims who are feeling like they are somehow responsible and deserve what they get from their partners.

only some serious counselling will help get them out of that state of mind, and ONLY THEN will they even know that they need other help. (such as leave the relationship? demand more respect from him? or whatever else is needed.....)

Girlx, I have to say thanks for taking the interest and for caring enough. given the possible danger you mention due to the guy's connection I can only admire you more. ofcourse sure you need to take precautions for your own safety.......but there are still things that can be done to help her without putting yourself in direct risk.

also one thing to keep in mind is...once she gets the counselling help....the result doesnt always necessarily mean she will end up leaving her husband (a situation which could bring loss of face to him...and probably more anger directed towards those who tried to help her), but often other solutions/options might be considered.

all the best to your friend.....and also to you. do let us know how things go...and if you want to discuss some things in detail feel free to PM me.

(Im not a counsellor/therapist or even a soaial worker, but have worked with them and many victims of violence)

[girlx]

Proceed with EXTREME CAUTION.

yeah i know this, for sure... i have dealt with this same family before- i posted about a year ago about them doing bad land deals with some farangs. i was never able to warn those farangs and at least one deal did go bad in the end. also, the second biggest family in this area had the same problem- spoiled son beat his farang girlfriend about a year ago (so much for certain people's <deleted> ideas about the local people here being better people than imports, btw). i have managed to remain friends with him and even help him to think about changing his ways, without interfering to a dangerous degree (though it did get close at one point). i hate to see things like this because i know how it is, but i am certainly not going to sacrifice myself for this girl's stupidity.

[blizzard]

there is nothing you can do.

if the girl dont think theres a problem then there isnt one.

happens all the time in usa.

endings usually tragic. please no name calling. girl is misguided not stupid.

Edited May 15, 2007 by blizzard

[Sheryl]

Girlx,

This is the best organization in Thailand to my knowledge dealing with domestic violence:

Friends of Women Foundation

218/16 Soi Pradipat 18, Phayathai Bangkok 10400 Thailand

Tel: 279-0867, 278-3551

OR (not sure which address is more current):

386/61-62, Soi Ratchadaphisek 44,

Ratchadaphisek Rd

Ladyao, Chatujak,

Bangkok 10900, Thailand

Tel: 66-2-5131001

Fax: 66-2-5131929

"The Women's Rights Protection Centre (WPRC) is a project of the Friends of Women Foundation (FOW) which aims to assist women victims of violence. The centre arranges social workers and lawyers to give counselling and legal assistance, and provides a safe haven for some abused women in need of shelter."

To the extent that she believes this to be a normal part of Thai culture and is trying to conform to her adopted land, the Thai women at this foundation can set her straight and help her understand that, while it may be occurring quite often, it is neither sanctioned nor legal behavior in Thailand.

It is frustrating when someone doesn't acept help but I believe sooner or later she will, although things may have to get a lot worse first. Tell her about FOW, try to get her to at least go talk with them, and keep telling her that she shouldn't put up with this and that there are places available for help and. if need be, emergency shelter. Also maybe stress the welfare of her child to her since she sounds very tradition minded. A man who beats his wife is quite likely to also abuse his children and especially step-child. Even if he dopesn't, studies have shown that observing domestic violence permanently scars children pyschologically. Put it to her that it is her duty as a mother to get her child away from this.

Bless you for trying. Even if she won't do anything now, try to stay her friend and let her know you are there for her, so that if and when she is finally ready she'll have someone to turn to.

[Sheryl]

P.S.

I also support the idea of contacting her parents if you can, and Guest House's suggestion of reporting the child's situation to UK authorities (whichever agency is responsible for child welfare in UK with copy to embassy here) is good if you have any grounds for thinking the child is being subject to or witnessing abuse. The child is a UK citizen and entitled to protection if the mother is not able to provide it.

[GracelessFawn]

I think anyone who resorts to violence does it because out of ignorance, lack of education or intelligence for that matter not to mention the way they may have been raised. After saying that I would remind you that Thais don't like us swimming in their soup and stirring things up. You are fortunate to have such nice people in you life and I wish you all the luck in the world in continuing your trend of non-abusive relationships.

Sometimes, it is easy for us to judge others and how they deal with their hells, but such situations, especially when we are in the middle of it are not easy to manage. When you are reduced to nothing, beaten frequently, threatened, constantly treated like crap, called nasty names all throughout the day........ at one point, you start believing or doubting your capabilities and qualities as a person. Slowly, you get brain-washed and start believing that you are nothing, that you are stupid, that you are worthless because the other person says it to you all the time. Your self-worth gets reduced to nothing, it is barely there. Once you are in that state, you slowly think that you deserve every bit of abuse you're getting, starting to believe that you ought to be treated like that and you deserve nothing better.

Do not judge her! You've never been on her shoes and you don't know what it's like!

[girlx]

thanks sheryl i emailed her that info...

as for not judging her, well, i feel sorry for her but i do think she is stupid. i come from a background of fanatical religion and hypocritical abuse too, but i never once thought i deserved it or fell for any of that brainwashing. i guess maybe stupid isn't the word- i think it's weakness more than anything. i would never let a guy talk to me like that or hit me. i would never marry a guy i met after 3 months, especially if i had a kid to worry about, and if i made such a mistake, i would do whatever i could to quickly rememdy it for my child's sake. but i suppose no one knows the whole story.

[PlainJane]

This topic is very interesting!

[aussiestyle1983]

Please keep us updated on the situation, or if there is any improvements, or if she has gotten out...............

[meemiathai]

thanks sheryl i emailed her that info...

as for not judging her, well, i feel sorry for her but i do think she is stupid. i come from a background of fanatical religion and hypocritical abuse too, but i never once thought i deserved it or fell for any of that brainwashing. i guess maybe stupid isn't the word- i think it's weakness more than anything. i would never let a guy talk to me like that or hit me. i would never marry a guy i met after 3 months, especially if i had a kid to worry about, and if i made such a mistake, i would do whatever i could to quickly rememdy it for my child's sake. but i suppose no one knows the whole story.

I can understand a woman without proper education, without survival skills, without knowledge of the outside world, not being able to deal with this situation and will unfortunately have to suffer for her whole life. Can't really blame her.

But to fly all the way from the UK to here to get abused like that? She should be taking of herself.

Don't risk yourself girlx.

[cm-happy]

Well get some video taped footage of her being abused, or lead around by the ears or something like that.

Then, send it to her folks in England.. and let them hop on the first plane and get their daughter.

With her state of mind, they may have to stage an intervention.

Good luck!

Seems like a good idea to get the folks back in UK involved or possible them along with the Embassy to help this poor girl. That way you're somewhat isolated from this problem.

[LaReina]

In reality there are so many angles to a case like this that it is nearly impossible to determine the right course of action that will work in the shortest amount of time without endangering a person trying to help.

• I have thought, if my husband were to start abusing me what would I do?
  
• Could I up and leave because I know better?
  
• Or would I be filled with so much shame that I would try and hide the truth and deal with it?
  
• Would I be filled with stupid love, and actually blame myself for his anger towards me?
  
• Or could I completely lose it and pull a burning bed?
  

Not to speak to much about my family, but my cousin (who is educated MS degree, taught in a University and whose parents were both educated), married and lives in a foreign country where her husband beats the crap out of her, rips her clothes off her when he fights with her in front of his male siblings (and their children), has been known to force her to bathe outside, and locks her in a room where the neighbors bring her food through a window. Her kids on the other hand are as rotten as whatever, and actually rat their mother out, when people feed her.

Word made it to her mother my Aunt (who for starters did not sanction the wedding and was pretty pissed when it happened and quit talking to her) as neighbors were quite convinced that she (my cousin) was a motherless child and were surprised to know that my Aunt was still alive. My Aunt flew to the country, found my cousin, and tried to bring her back to the US.

Guess what. She refused.

According to my aunt, her daughter said:

1. Her mother was trying to break-up her marriage
   
2. It was not as bad as what the neighbors described
   
3. He is stressed because although he has isolated her from all her friends, her new job does not make enough money to help out, so some times he loses his temper.
   
4. Maybe her mother could help her monetarily to start a business and that would smooth things out a bit.
   
5. The ONLY WAY she was returning to the US was if her husband was coming too.
   

So, after two failed return trips to extract her daughter, my Aunt washed her hands.

And as sad as it may seem, I declined all offers to try fly to what amounts to me as the depths of hel_l to try and talk some sense into someone who is brainwashed beyond belief.

Because in reality, people like this need to be literally kidnapped, against their will and taken to a place where they can slowly remember where they came from, and what their lives used to be. And I think, that takes time and a lot of patience.

[LaReina]

The case was a little more complicated. On the second trip my Aunt told her “sure.. no problem, of course I do not want to break up your marriage, your husband needs to come and live in the US also”.

So.. why don’t you come home with me, and bring your youngest with you.. (she has 6 children or maybe 7?) then you can start to look for a job, and then when you have a job, and you find yourself an apartment, you send for your husband and the rest of the kids.

Unfortunately he husband was no FOOL, and he said NO! We go together.