Gay War Against Novotel Bangkok

[BambinA]

edit..

(have this copy for this post anyway)

I misunderstodd observer becoz my eng is poor.

Sorry again

Edited June 28, 2007 by BambinA

[observer21]

Sorry i dont understand - what are you trying to say?

My English is not that great. However, i re-read your post ...and i know that i misunderstood so i shut up.(sorry then)

Happy?

Sorry too, only joking with you.  Your English is far far better than my Thai x

[meom]

I would support the ban on the grounds of which toilets would they use.

Can't have then using the ladies - wouldnt be right. And i am sure a lot of guys wouldnt feel comfortable with katoeys in the gents!

So how do other places that do allow katoeys deal with this toilet issue?

[observer21]

I would support the ban on the grounds of which toilets would they use.

Can't have then using the ladies - wouldnt be right. And i am sure a lot of guys wouldnt feel comfortable with katoeys in the gents!

So how do other places that do allow katoeys deal with this toilet issue?

Good question - dont really know though.  As far as i know it is rare to have 3 genders in the same bar/club.

In Pattaya for example, there is a Katoey bar (Michaels i think) but it is only guys and Katoeys, so its like  - ladies and gents.  And anyway the guys who go in dont mind anyway!

[BambinA]

So you re-edit the post you deleted and pretend it was a double post.  Not so clever really as you can not fully delete your post - only admin. can.

Devious

It is not that clever I know.

I just make an accuse as double post coz i do not want to say i yell your parents.

and again I am so sorry for misunderstanding

[observer21]

So you re-edit the post you deleted and pretend it was a double post.  Not so clever really as you can not fully delete your post - only admin. can.

Devious

It is not that clever I know.

I just make an accuse as double post coz i do not want to say i yell your parents.

and again I am so sorry for misunderstanding

Mai pen ry

[zink]

Duh, that policy is understandable. They simply don't want newbie tourists to pick up a wrong kind of "lady" from their expensive disco. I believe also Nana disco has the same policy for the same reason.

[Digger]

Most ladyboys I know would not pass the time of day in CM2 - they tend to go to other venue's where they get the level of respect they feel they as spending customers deserve. Personally I have been into Spasso and Sheratons new bar with a ladyboy and they have not said a word (probably help that we spent about 8000 baht between us). Novotels loss is anothers gain. Equally Bed Supperclub is LB friendly - they seem to have no problems.

PS by the way, they always use the ladies toilet in case you did not realise.

[klrsmith]

I support the right of any bar to refuse service to anyone, at their discretion. This is standard procedure found throughout the world. There are stories of many a straight person accidentally walking into a gay bar and upon ordering a beer have been refused service. So, why should it be any different?

Therefore, I support the ban that Novotel has instigated simply because they have the right to do so.

And all you heterophobes out there can b!tch all you want. I've heard it all before, so don't waste your time...

I agree - one of my favorite signs; "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" Actually, I don't recall being in a bar in the US and NOT seeing that sign.

My problem with this story was that "high-end Bangkok hotel" was used to describe the Novatel Siam Square... :-D

Edited June 28, 2007 by klrsmith

[TAWP]

I sense the story is missing some details.

But apart from that: It is my firm stance that a company may refuse service or entry to anyone they so chooses. However, in protection of consumers, I support the idea that every bar/shop/company that wants to have selective admission, pre-decided and not on a per client-base (i.e. on race, gender or something else), have to have a clear sign outside their venue declearing this. This will both avoid problems at the door with unwanted clients wanting to get in (i.e. farangs into japanese-only clubs and so on) but also allows other customers to pick a place and accuratly validate what kind of place it is and if they support the blanket-ban. Or even prefer such a place.

[jumnien]

I always enjoyed the gay discos in Los Angeles whose entrance policy was based on money, fame and appearance. If you are rich or famous or cute, you get in. If you are ugly, poor or unknown, don't waste their time. Hey, it's an American tradition!

[astral]

Is Right of Admission a valid concept in Thailand??

The signs still exist in South Africa, a throw back to the bad old days.

Does Thailand want to be tarred with the same brush.

[Gary A]

I would suggest that you get used to it !! I was with a friend who is fluent in Japanese. We went to a Japanese bar and were told Japanese ONLY. My friend asked for the manager and explained to him that we just wanted to have a few drinks. The manager told us that we would not be allowed to take any of the ladies. My friend then wanted to go in and I told him that NO WAY would I spend a single baht there. Why would I want to go in a place to spend money when they don't want me there? There are farang bars that don't allow Thai men to go in. You still see signs that say "No Arabs/muslims allowed". There is a big massage parlor on Petburi Road that doesn't allow farangs. So what? It's their bar and they make their own rules.

[dominique355]

As I understand, the person who's admission was refuse, was a cross dresser, not a TG. I am not sure if this qualifies him as "katoey", because this term seems to be a bit ambiguous.

He presented himself at the door in women's cloth and when he had to produce his ID card, the doorman noticed he was a man and refused admission.

Personally, I would not have a problem with such a person in the same disco, and apparently the management regretted the incident and hurried to emphasize it's Open Door policy. Too late it seems. The harm is done, although it seems most people here in TV would support the doorman's decision.

If he would later, once inside the disco, behave in a way which cannot be tolerated, I would agree to have him kicked out. But simply because he is a cross-dresser? Where is the famous Thai tolerance?

I like your idea, Bambina. Bring in the Ghost dancers!

[farang prince]

Gay people annually spend millions of "pink baht" in Thailand. If a boycott is actually organized against Novatel, they will feel the pain, although I don't know what Simsiriwong was thinking when he went to CM2. It is a dive and my ladyboy and I wouldn't be caught dead in the place. There are plenty of classy venues in Bangkok that cater to the "Third Sex" community and do very well financially because of it.

[Livinginexile]

I went to a bar a while back and was told "sorry sir, japanese only"

In my country the the bar owner would be sent to jail for this obvious "colour" discrimination.

[hkt83100]

He claimed a once-popular Silom nightclub was bankrupted within a month after putting up a sign reading "No homosexuals" on its door.

The exact text on the sign at the wall of Rome Club was "Homosexuals are not welcome". Those were the days...

[geriatrickid]

It is unfortunate that Novotel - the brand, was dragged into a decision made by a doorman at a franchise holder hotel. Novotel is part of the French hospitality and real estate investment group Accor. Other Accor brand names are Sofitel, Ibis, Motel 6, red Roof Inns and a few others. Seems that some people have conveniently forgotten that Accor has a liberal same sex benefits approach to employees and that several of its brands are considered gay friendly and endorsed for gay functions. (Red Roof Inns are known for its pet friendly policy and are one of the few chains in the US to go out of their way to do so. I don't think gay people that love their doggies will be boycotting anytime soon.)

For people that should know better, a few facts about large hotels in Thailand were thrown aside. Accor is a big believer in the use of local franchisees to operate its hotels. Do people honesty believe that the Novotel H.O. has an edict that says no gays at its hotels? This is a case of the local shmo at the door that made a mistake. Or maybe it wasn't and the wench gave the doorman attitude. It happens. It is not corporate policy to turn away clients that behave and spend money. Accor is in business to make a buck. It's franchisees are in business to make a buck. Get all the facts befire there's a rush to condemn.

[chinthee]

It is unfortunate that Novotel - the brand, was dragged into a decision made by a doorman at a franchise holder hotel. Novotel is part of the French hospitality and real estate investment group Accor. Other Accor brand names are Sofitel, Ibis, Motel 6, red Roof Inns and a few others. Seems that some people have conveniently forgotten that Accor has a liberal same sex benefits approach to employees and that several of its brands are considered gay friendly and endorsed for gay functions. (Red Roof Inns are known for its pet friendly policy and are one of the few chains in the US to go out of their way to do so. I don't think gay people that love their doggies will be boycotting anytime soon.)

For people that should know better, a few facts about large hotels in Thailand were thrown aside. Accor is a big believer in the use of local franchisees to operate its hotels. Do people honesty believe that the Novotel H.O. has an edict that says no gays at its hotels? This is a case of the local shmo at the door that made a mistake. Or maybe it wasn't and the wench gave the doorman attitude. It happens. It is not corporate policy to turn away clients that behave and spend money. Accor is in business to make a buck. It's franchisees are in business to make a buck. Get all the facts befire there's a rush to condemn.

Actually, if you really want to get into the minutiae, I met the franchise owner a few years ago of that Novotel, and if I remember correctly he told me that the CM2 was actually leased out to another group, so Accor and Novotel don't actually own that club, I think.

Another clarification on my point. Some katoeys are notorious trouble makers in some of the nicer clubs. For that reason, sometimes they are not allowed in unless well behaved. We have gone to Qbar with two friends of friends who are post-ops and they are well behaved and never denied entrance. I think the ones who are trouble makers are well known to most doormen. Now, to the point that this particular aggrieved person was actually a transvestite, (a man dressed as a woman) or a pre or post op transsexual I maintain is still not relevant and not a gay issue.

This probably boils down to a doorman making a decision, right or wrong, that this person would be a trouble-maker.

[JimmyCA]

ONCE AGAIN THIS IS NOT ABOUT GAYS... IT IS ABOUT SLEAZY KATOYS TRYING TO TRICK FARANGS NOTHING MORE. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT THAN SOME SLEAZY OLD SOD TRICKING UNDERAGE GIRLS.

I AM SURE RESPECTABLE GAYS ARE WELCOME

[Scott]

I have no particular liking for Katoeys, but I don't care much for discrimination. And I hope Novotel pays for the actions of its employee. If it is, indeed, a fair employer with overall fair policies, it will make right by the actions of this employee.

The right to refuse service to people is generally limited to specific reasons--not because your fat, ugly and your mother dresses you funny.

[observer21]

Most ladyboys I know would not pass the time of day in CM2 - they tend to go to other venue's where they get the level of respect they feel they as spending customers deserve. Personally I have been into Spasso and Sheratons new bar with a ladyboy and they have not said a word (probably help that we spent about 8000 baht between us). Novotels loss is anothers gain. Equally Bed Supperclub is LB friendly - they seem to have no problems.

PS by the way, they always use the ladies toilet in case you did not realise.

Well thats obvious to those who spend their time with katoeys - digger.  But they are still mostly men - r hadnt you noticed.  

[astral]

Any such discrimination is un-acceptable.

Let them use the Ladies.

It is all cubicles so no-one knows what is what.

[Grover]

Gay people annually spend millions of "pink baht" in Thailand.

'brown baht', no ?

[jdinasia]

Okkkkk.... so the straight person accidentally walks into a gay bar and orders a beer... now, tell us, HOW did the bartender know he/she was straight in order to discriminate against him/her in this fashion?

Interesting cul-de-sac you've wandered into...

i don't think that's a culd-de-sac and i am convinced that most gay men can identify me as a hetero as i can identify most gay men.

I am convinced by that statement that you know very few gay men Even I cannot identify a man's sexuality just by seeing him .... after some prolonged time I MIGHT be able to narrow itt down IF he is gay and not severely closeted! (watch someone long enough and you can see who their eyes track on etc .... but at a glance? No way! You can pick out the obviously heterosexual and obviously gay ... and that leaves the rest ...

[jdinasia]

ONCE AGAIN THIS IS NOT ABOUT GAYS... IT IS ABOUT SLEAZY KATOYS TRYING TO TRICK FARANGS NOTHING MORE. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT THAN SOME SLEAZY OLD SOD TRICKING UNDERAGE GIRLS.

I AM SURE RESPECTABLE GAYS ARE WELCOME

Your CAPS lock can be found above your left 'shift' key. and how is Canada today?

[jdinasia]

I would support the ban on the grounds of which toilets would they use.

Can't have then using the ladies - wouldnt be right. And i am sure a lot of guys wouldnt feel comfortable with katoeys in the gents!

So how do other places that do allow katoeys deal with this toilet issue?

Good question - dont really know though.  As far as i know it is rare to have 3 genders in the same bar/club.

In Pattaya for example, there is a Katoey bar (Michaels i think) but it is only guys and Katoeys, so its like  - ladies and gents.  And anyway the guys who go in dont mind anyway!

huh? Every disco in Pattaya has Ladyboys that either go or work there. Ladyboys use the women's toilets ... not a burden. Do not forget that places like the disco at the Novotel have attendants in the toilets. Safe as can be except for some guy trying to massage your shoulders while you piss!

[AlexLah]

Novotel CM2 bar rejects any transgender that wants to enter.

I went there once with a TG friend of mine. No she did not look like a bargirl just decent dress.

Indeed first the crew had no problem letting us in untill they checked her ID card.

Sorry no TG allowed.

I asked for the manager but they refused and did not explain why.

To those of you that think they are right, how about rejecting afro americans, jews, chinese or any other different looking people huh?

I agree when there is a party or something where there is a dresscode and someone shows up and want to enter not acording the dresscode they cannot enter.

What is the fear about TG people, they are all humans just like you and me.

Novotel management should be ashamed.

And yes I am avoiding any Novotel hotel to stay just to boycot them.

And I am travelling 35 weeks a year so they loose a lot of money only from me, imagine if 10.000 others are doing the same.

It is time for Thailand and the rest of the world and some of the people here at TV to wake up and get rid of their stereotype thinking and acting.

Humans are humans no matter how they look or what they feel.

Alex

Edited June 29, 2007 by AlexLah

[farang prince]

Gay people annually spend millions of "pink baht" in Thailand.

'brown baht', no ?

No.

[jetjock]

I had given some serious thought to opening a very exclusive nightclub in LOS which would be restricted to only men who were Brad Pitt or George Clooney look-alikes and only gorgeous beautiful women between 21 and 29 years old. I gave up the idea when I realized that a club populated with only ThaiVisa members might get a little boring.

Edited June 29, 2007 by jetjock