When A Man Loves A Woman?

[donna]

easy to say, much harder to so Sir Burr.

[sbk]

The older you get, the harder it is to find love. Don't wait too long.

My grandmother remarried at 57, and lived with and loved her husband until the day he died, 20 years later.

[Sir Burr]

The older you get, the harder it is to find love. Don't wait too long.

My grandmother remarried at 57, and lived with and loved her husband until the day he died, 20 years later.

Good for her. I'm sure she would have agreed with my statement.

[GreenShone]

The older you get, the harder it is to find love. Don't wait too long.

My grandmother remarried at 57, and lived with and loved her husband until the day he died, 20 years later.

I am not the marrying type, but it would be nice to have a partner/companion in life. I guess, I'm not that hopeless at 26.

[Sir Burr]

The older you get, the harder it is to find love. Don't wait too long.

My grandmother remarried at 57, and lived with and loved her husband until the day he died, 20 years later.

I am not the marrying type, but it would be nice to have a partner/companion in life. I guess, I'm not that hopeless at 26.

Have a look at a different culture that does things differently. Arranged marriages in India for instance.

You would be surprised at what percentage of marriages there are successful.

They have a saying "Love the man you marry, not marry the man you love".

[kat]

Right. Arranged marriages in India. Women have to pay ridiculous dowries to the male, and then are treated like indentured servants by the husbands and the family. She only becomes a tad more powerful when she has a son, who can then intervene on her behalf. And of course, those are the lucky ones who are not beaten to death or set alight with cooking oil. The others in the upper stratum wouldn't dream of complaining publicly because they will be ostracized from society as they know it.

The last stellar advice you gave to women was for us to follow the laws of the animal kingdom in the jungle. If we followed you advice, we wouldn't be concerned with finding love, but protection.

[LaReina]

Now now Kat, we only hear of the bad cases because succes stories are not news worthy.

What woman/ mother is not an indentured servant?

I myself am no fan of arranged marriages, but I know of three (here in thailand) where the men just adore their wives.

Two are a young couple and one is an old old old couple.

I know of ONE marriage where the one is not happy, but only because her husband (like quite a few men) is a prick. Enough for her to complain about him, but not enough for her to want to leave.

All Indian.

Marriage is the luck of the draw. Either your spouse was raised by a mother, or dropped as a baby and brain parts just never developed... properly.

And if you are not beaten to death in India, then you are killed by a hit man that your spouse hired after he upped your life insurance in the US... or.. after you told him you were leaving him for good.

[canadiangirl]

What woman/ mother is not an indentured servant?

I'm not, and I intend to remain so.

I myself am no fan of arranged marriages, but I know of three (here in thailand) where the men just adore their wives. Two are a young couple and one is an old old old couple.

I know of ONE marriage where the one is not happy, but only because her husband (like quite a few men) is a prick. Enough for her to complain about him, but not enough for her to want to leave.

All Indian.

Marriage is the luck of the draw. Either your spouse was raised by a mother, or dropped as a baby and brain parts just never developed... properly.

I know of one arranged marriage that seems to be going on strong. If the parents have good judgements, and the young people have poor judgement, but the young people are willing to put effort into getting along with each other -- maybe it turns out better than what either of them would have chosen by love.

BUT -- I think arranged marriages vs free marriages are like dictatorships vs. democracies: yeah, people make stupid decisions and elect stupid leaders under a democracy -- but it prevents the worst case scenario of a brutal tyrant a la Kim Jong-Il/Burmese junta.

Arrianged marraiges work out sometimes, I have no doubt, but I wouldn't want to leave my marital happiness to the luck of the draw, as you say. Especially since women eternally get the short end of the stick in these "traditional" marriages.

[Sir Burr]

Right. Arranged marriages in India. Women have to pay ridiculous dowries to the male, and then are treated like indentured servants by the husbands and the family. She only becomes a tad more powerful when she has a son, who can then intervene on her behalf. And of course, those are the lucky ones who are not beaten to death or set alight with cooking oil. The others in the upper stratum wouldn't dream of complaining publicly because they will be ostracized from society as they know it.

The last stellar advice you gave to women was for us to follow the laws of the animal kingdom in the jungle. If we followed you advice, we wouldn't be concerned with finding love, but protection.

Forget about all the other cultural crap that goes with Indian arranged marriages. That wasn't my point.

My point was that two strangers can live together and fall in love. Love doesn't have to come first for a successful marriage.

Maybe my previous advice has been a bit neanderthal, but there are a lot of single, older women on this board who haven't exactly been successful when it comes to relationships. Are they more qualified to give advice? I don't know. I'm happily married, are you?

There was an article on the BBC about peoples expectations in their partners and the institute of marriage being too high, which explains the high divorce rate. We are bombarded by the media to believe that there is that perfect someone out there for us. The perfect soul-mate, the perfect romance and the perfect marriage. If it's anything less, people abandon it.

People should be a tad more realistic in their expectations.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Sir Burr

[canadiangirl]

Forget about all the other cultural crap that goes with Indian arranged marriages. That wasn't my point.

My point was that two strangers can live together and fall in love. Love doesn't have to come first for a successful marriage.

Maybe my previous advice has been a bit neanderthal, but there are a lot of single, older women on this board who haven't exactly been successful when it comes to relationships. Are they more qualified to give advice? I don't know.

Sir Burr,

I don't know where you get this impression that there are a lot of bitter old single women on this board. Most female posters here seem to be either happily married, widowed and enjoying life or single and enjoying life. Personally, I am single and enjoying life!

What I have seen a lot of is bitter old farang men, unable to deal with this "newfangled" idea that women are people, who move to the third world to buy themselves the kind of sweet feminine compliance that only financial dependance can bring, and call it "love".

Edited July 26, 2007 by canadiangirl

[kayo]

Right. Arranged marriages in India. Women have to pay ridiculous dowries to the male, and then are treated like indentured servants by the husbands and the family. She only becomes a tad more powerful when she has a son, who can then intervene on her behalf. And of course, those are the lucky ones who are not beaten to death or set alight with cooking oil. The others in the upper stratum wouldn't dream of complaining publicly because they will be ostracized from society as they know it.

The last stellar advice you gave to women was for us to follow the laws of the animal kingdom in the jungle. If we followed you advice, we wouldn't be concerned with finding love, but protection.

Forget about all the other cultural crap that goes with Indian arranged marriages. That wasn't my point.

My point was that two strangers can live together and fall in love. Love doesn't have to come first for a successful marriage.

Maybe my previous advice has been a bit neanderthal, but there are a lot of single, older women on this board who haven't exactly been successful when it comes to relationships. Are they more qualified to give advice? I don't know. I'm happily married, are you?

There was an article on the BBC about peoples expectations in their partners and the institute of marriage being too high, which explains the high divorce rate. We are bombarded by the media to believe that there is that perfect someone out there for us. The perfect soul-mate, the perfect romance and the perfect marriage. If it's anything less, people abandon it.

People should be a tad more realistic in their expectations.

I must say that I have to agree with Sir burr's sentiments here.

a) vis-a-vis, the media impregnation of peoples expectations.

B ) (and more on topic) My mother is to me an exemplary example.

She married, out of complete free will, a man that she did not love.

But she respected him. She also saw in him a person who would be a responsible father and husband.

Some Thirty odd years later, and through all kinds of hardships, they are solid together, more solid than ever. When I sporadically see them, and they are sitting somewhere together, or go on some outing together, they seem like a puppy love struck teenage couple.

To use her words (from a few years ago) words she spoke to me, "I may not have loved him when I married him, but I was dam.ned sure he'd be a good father to any children I might bear, and a good husband to me. You (kayo) are the third child who is now an adult and doing well in your life and i have never loved a man more than your father."

Edited July 26, 2007 by kayo

[Sir Burr]

Sir Burr,

I don't know where you get this impression that there are a lot of bitter old single women on this board. Most female posters here seem to be either happily married, widowed and enjoying life or single and enjoying life. Personally, I am single and enjoying life!

What I have seen a lot of is bitter old farang men, unable to deal with this "newfangled" idea that women are people, who move to the third world to buy themselves the kind of sweet feminine compliance that only financial dependance can bring, and call it "love".

I never acused anyone of being bitter, so, please do not put words in my mouth. If you are single and enjoying life, good for you.

Ahhh the bitter old farang buying love with sweet subservient local lasses. That old cliche again. why did you bring that up?

To put it succinctly:-

The older you get, the harder it is to find love, especially if you have swallowed the myth of perfect romances, perfect marriages.

I tried to show that other cultures don't put such a high value on love at the beginning of a relationship and that love can follow.

That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yet, for expressing this opinion, I'm ridiculed by Kat, and you throw a worn out cliche at me.

I'm starting to believe those male posters that say you guys only want people to agree with you, otherwise you are not welcome here.

[kayo]

(Personally, I think Sir Burr might have me on ignore, due to comments I've seen earlier else where and unrelated)

yet again, I do believe he has above clarified a position I echo.

With exception to the last line. I wouldn't have asked that.

I'm generally more inclined to go with the "mai bpen lai" on that one.

( Ladies,

I've still got the edit function open.

I just now see Sir Burrs reply, below this post. Thank you, Sir Burr. And I, as any common over-sensitive klown, wasn't sure. I do post seriously, and often openly. But yes, they are few and far between. It just depends on how much a thread interests, or more often, touches me. That's why I initially joined. I do joke around a lot, but only because there is to much at stake to lose my sense of light hearted fun - speaking of which, I'd love to know who does have me on ignore! )

Edited July 27, 2007 by kayo

[Sir Burr]

Not on ignore Kayo, just I've never seen you post a serious reply before. Obviously my impression of you was wrong. Apologies.

[November Rain]

Maybe my previous advice has been a bit neanderthal, but there are a lot of single, older women on this board who haven't exactly been successful when it comes to relationships. Are they more qualified to give advice? I don't know. I'm happily married, are you?

<snip>

People should be a tad more realistic in their expectations.

Who are the "lot of single, older women on this board who haven't exactly been successful when it comes to relationships"? I'd be very interested to know exactly which of us you have formed this opinion of. Pm me, as I don't think it's fair to put the names on the forum - although if I'm one of them, feel free to say so. As Canadian Girl says, I think you've misjudged the ladies & their past relationships, badly from a few lines they may have written on a forum.

You may be happily married, but is your wife? I'm not implying anything, but sometimes these feelings aren't mutually felt. There can be dissatisfaction or resentment which one partner is blithely unaware of. If she is as happy as you, then I think that she's the perfect person to be giving advice here - as she has the distinct advantage (when understanding a woman's point of view) of being a woman. You don't, no matter how happy you may be. So, no, I don't personally feel that your status of maritally satisfied/blissful makes you any more qualified than any woman on here to give your feelings or advice. It doesn't make you unqualified, either; but no better qualified.

I'm not sure if I agree with your last statement. To an extent I do. To expect perfection is ridiculous and unattainable. However, to compromise on your standards & ideals can ultimately lead to misery for both partners. I think to be realistic about yourself & what is a need & what is merely a desire, is more to the point.

[kayo]

and, needs being needs and therefore essentialy basic, perhaps even more to the point: Where to find a balance within eachothers' desires?

[canadiangirl]

I never acused anyone of being bitter, so, please do not put words in my mouth. If you are single and enjoying life, good for you.

Ahhh the bitter old farang buying love with sweet subservient local lasses. That old cliche again. why did you bring that up?

To put it succinctly:-

The older you get, the harder it is to find love, especially if you have swallowed the myth of perfect romances, perfect marriages.

I tried to show that other cultures don't put such a high value on love at the beginning of a relationship and that love can follow.

That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yet, for expressing this opinion, I'm ridiculed by Kat, and you throw a worn out cliche at me.

I'm starting to believe those male posters that say you guys only want people to agree with you, otherwise you are not welcome here.

I don't know what result you really expect from posting "there are a lot of bitter old farang women who haven't been very successful in their relationships" -- in the ladies forum.

I don't think any of the women here have ever expressed that we want only men who agree with us 100% to post here ---- in case you haven't noticed, we don't always agree with each other! -- but there's a difference between disagreeing and blatant disrespect. I am not accusing you of this, but your comment above comes close, in my opinion.

It is possible that we are having a misunderstanding about the idea of arranged marriage. If you are merely suggesting that both people should expect some amount of work and compromise to go into a relationship -- then I agree. What I don't agree with is the idea that things were better in more "traditional" times, and that the higher expectations of women today are somehow responsible for all of the problems in Western relationships.

Edited July 27, 2007 by canadiangirl

[Sir Burr]

I don't know what result you really expect from posting "there are a lot of bitter old farang women who haven't been very successful in their relationships" -- in the ladies forum.

Please provide a link to the post where you say I said this.

I don't think I've ever said that on any Thaivisa forum. Put up or shut up.

Try re-reading my previous post starting with "To put it succinctly".

If there's anything you don't understand, i'll try to explain and maybe type slower.

[sbk]

To be fair to Sir Burr, he never used the word "bitter". He did say

but there are a lot of single, older women on this board who haven't exactly been successful when it comes to relationships. Are they more qualified to give advice? I don't know.

Well, since I am married (is 40 older these days?) and have been so for 18 years, I guess I don't quite fit in the with your conception of single with unsuccessful relationships. Yet, you seem unwilling to accept anything I might post either.

I think there are several misconceptions going on here. Sir Burr is under the misconception that his arguments will change people's minds, and some of the ladies are under the misconception that their arguments will change Sir Burr's mind. And when that doesn't happen, he accuses the women of not being willing to accept another point of view, and he gets accused of, well, being a typical man.

Fact is, we all have differing opinions and everyone has the right to that opinion without being attacked or judged. From both sides.

I disagree with Sir Burr, but then I have been married to the man I love for 18 years. My parents have been married for 39 (second marriage for both, they loved each other and got married after both having gone through painful divorces). My sister has been married to the man she fell in love with for 26 years. So, I guess I have a different conception of commitment, relationships and marriage. Seeing as how I believe that two people who love each other can be married, and if they so choose, stay married.

And before you come up with some argument trying to dispute my beliefs, remember one thing. They are my beliefs and I am entitled to them. Just as you are to yours. Your arguments won't change my mind nor my life experiences. Just as mine won't change yours. Lets leave it at that, shall we?

[kat]

Now now Kat, we only hear of the bad cases because succes stories are not news worthy.

What woman/ mother is not an indentured servant?

I myself am no fan of arranged marriages, but I know of three (here in thailand) where the men just adore their wives.

Two are a young couple and one is an old old old couple.

I know of ONE marriage where the one is not happy, but only because her husband (like quite a few men) is a prick. Enough for her to complain about him, but not enough for her to want to leave.

All Indian.

Marriage is the luck of the draw. Either your spouse was raised by a mother, or dropped as a baby and brain parts just never developed... properly.

And if you are not beaten to death in India, then you are killed by a hit man that your spouse hired after he upped your life insurance in the US... or.. after you told him you were leaving him for good.

I went to school with a high concentration of South Asians, and have close personal acquaintances with many. I have observed 5 different couples of arranged marriages from a close social distance. All of these couples were within the elite, upper stratum of South Asian society. So, I am no stranger to arranged marriage. My point is not whether or not they are happy - because one can never really tell, and I personally need a lot more than polite social decorum to be happy - but the effects of these constrained choices on women's lives.

Are you aware of the massive numbers of Nepali and Indian women and girls that are life-long sex slaves in brothels, and the much larger proportion of non-elite women who are in fact indentured servants in arranged marriages? It's far more than the few that you and I know put together.

I'm not saying that individual arranged marriages can't be happy, but that the practice on a societal level is bundled with some pretty nasty social consequences for women. It's no wonder they all worked out.

Right. Arranged marriages in India. Women have to pay ridiculous dowries to the male, and then are treated like indentured servants by the husbands and the family. She only becomes a tad more powerful when she has a son, who can then intervene on her behalf. And of course, those are the lucky ones who are not beaten to death or set alight with cooking oil. The others in the upper stratum wouldn't dream of complaining publicly because they will be ostracized from society as they know it.

The last stellar advice you gave to women was for us to follow the laws of the animal kingdom in the jungle. If we followed you advice, we wouldn't be concerned with finding love, but protection.

Forget about all the other cultural crap that goes with Indian arranged marriages. That wasn't my point.

My point was that two strangers can live together and fall in love. Love doesn't have to come first for a successful marriage.

Maybe my previous advice has been a bit neanderthal, but there are a lot of single, older women on this board who haven't exactly been successful when it comes to relationships. Are they more qualified to give advice? I don't know. I'm happily married, are you?

There was an article on the BBC about peoples expectations in their partners and the institute of marriage being too high, which explains the high divorce rate. We are bombarded by the media to believe that there is that perfect someone out there for us. The perfect soul-mate, the perfect romance and the perfect marriage. If it's anything less, people abandon it.

People should be a tad more realistic in their expectations.

SB, I am not ridiculing you, but I am lambasting your comment as part of a collection that I've seen on here, particularly the one about the animal kingdom.

I'm single, I'm older than 35, and I've had a few successful relationships. I've also ended a few of them with great success. And from what I can see, it is in no danger of stopping anytime soon. I OWN my sexuality - it's mine, and I know exactly what that means. Western women are incredibly blessed to have that privilege. However, it is incredibly sad that in much of the world it still is a privilege.

If I felt that I was at a deficit without a husband, then I would've found myself one a long time ago. I don't define happiness, qualifications, or success by marriage, but I can see that you do. Does your wife, too?

I am not bombarded by the media, but by my own gut instincts and choice. That's how my creator intended it, and that's how my lovers and relationships like it.

[kat]

To be fair to Sir Burr, he never used the word "bitter". He did say

but there are a lot of single, older women on this board who haven't exactly been successful when it comes to relationships. Are they more qualified to give advice? I don't know.

Well, since I am married (is 40 older these days?) and have been so for 18 years, I guess I don't quite fit in the with your conception of single with unsuccessful relationships. Yet, you seem unwilling to accept anything I might post either.

I think there are several misconceptions going on here. Sir Burr is under the misconception that his arguments will change people's minds, and some of the ladies are under the misconception that their arguments will change Sir Burr's mind. And when that doesn't happen, he accuses the women of not being willing to accept another point of view, and he gets accused of, well, being a typical man.

No, sorry, SBK, but you are mistaken on a couple of counts. I have no misconceptions whatsoever of changing SB's mind. I don't really care if I do or not, to be honest. I am challenging his assertions and views on certain things because I believed they are flawed, not because of his beliefs.

And along those lines, SB, I'm sorry to break it to you but the older man in Thailand with paid wife or companion is not a cliche but a widely published, documented, and statistically significant FACT. There are entire villages being built in Thailand from this single demographic. If you want to argue that it is more complicated, or that there are variations, then fine, but attempts at mind control will not work here.

[Sir Burr]

I am challenging his assertions and views on certain things because I believed they are flawed, not because of his beliefs.

And just what do you think my beliefs are from the few posts I've put on this thread?

You seem to have made a whole house out of two bricks.

The two points I have tried to put across, which you have totally missed are:-

1. Love can come after a marriage, in other words we can grow to love the person we are with, love is not a prerequisite.

2. Too many people have been influenced by the media that there is that perfect some one out there, that the perfect romance and marriage is possible and we shouldn't accept anything less. This, I think is bullshit and that overly high expectations result in divorces.

Anything alse you have read into my posts is a product of your own imagination. Yes, I do judge success in the romance stakes if I have a loving partner that I love and my love is returned. Anything wrong with that? Try looking at the title of the thread.

Oh, and that is two women now who have cast aspersions on my marriage, which I really don't appreciate. Must have touched a nerve somewhere for women to start hitting below the belt.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Sir Burr

[LaReina]

So much to say…

We are family…

I’ve got all my sisters with me!!!

Sir Burr.. what ever did you do.. to illicit such negative responses? Granted I do not know your views on other topics.. but, you sure are catching a lot of flack here.

However, I must admit, I do agree with your views on love, and marriage. It all boils down to how we all define love and relationships.

For some, true heart breaking, “will die without you” love occurs instantly, and for others, you may love a person, but the true, deep down , I can look past the skid marks, and you do not look a day over the moment I met you.. comes a little later..

The media.. plays all too big a role on how people view themselves and what they think is ideal. It is entertainment and sometimes we need it to get away from the harsh world we live in, but then we also need to know when to step back into reality.

Perfection comes with true love. When you are in love with a person, that person becomes perfect in your eyes.

Canadian Girl.. my sistah’ did you see the words “bitter” because that is what you think? It is like, no matter how many times you read what he wrote, your mind threw in that word. Interesting.

[LaReina]

Kat.

Actually I am a little ashamed that I do not have a clue about the things you mentioned. Did not know it existed.

[Sir Burr]

Sir Burr.. what ever did you do.. to illicit such negative responses?

I have no idea.

[qwertz]

A suggestion for those of you lucky enough to have a relationship.

Take a critical look at your partner, all those little quirks that irritate you and ask yourselves one question.

Would I miss nothing and be happier if I lost him/her?

Edited July 27, 2007 by qwertz

[November Rain]

Perfection comes with true love. When you are in love with a person, that person becomes perfect in your eyes.

On this one point, La Reina, I don't agree (BTW, just hit me - does your nik mean "The Queen"? Cute!) That's still not love. That's lust. Love is seeing someone's faults, possibly being irritated to hel_l by them, but loving them anyway, because you realise you're not perfect either & they love you for all your faults. Love is loving someone, warts & all.

Qwertz, your last statement. I know what you mean, because I've been through it too, but you can't ask others that haven't to imagine that. You can't know how that feels until (God forbid) it happens. Yes, if you think "I wouldn't give a d@mn", you should be out of the relationship, but I think it's unimaginable (rightly so) for the most part.

[LaReina]

Really! You agree with me on all the rest! Too cool!!!!

Yeah... means.. the Queen.. if I can't be a little princess in real life I might as well be a queen on the net! (and I do not mean real royalty).

But, I guess you are right.. in a way.. that lust factor sure can blind a person.

BUT.. is love really seeing all the negative and loving anyway? I mean, beng able to see and count a persons faults is not good I would think. Honestly speaking, if I were to start noticing a persons negative traits, I don't think I would like them that much (heck I wouldnt like me),

Take for instance a mother. For her, her babies are beautiful and their poop smells like roses. For the rest of us, is smells like what it is. POOP!

We don't love the kid, but she does.

The kids acts up.. "Aww, isn't he so cute, I love it when he does that!".

For the rest of us... "get a rope!". She loves her child and sees nothing but beauty.. and the rest of us, see the child for what it is..

[November Rain]

^^. OK, I dunno. My kid's poop smells like poop & I stop him acting up before other people even notice it. I don't mean I'm a saint or even half-way sorted. What I mean is that I think I see things as they really are & if I can still love after that, then I know it's real. If other people really don't see any faults in their other half/child/whatever then I admit to being totally flummoxed. I really thought it was a case of seeing it, but ignoring it.

[Boo]

agree with you 110% NR. Love for me is exactly that. Once I understood that love wasn't about perfection & champagne & roses (which are fleeting & not always possible or wanted) then I truely fell in love.

And I personally don't know any mother that thinks their kids shit smells of roses, certainly I don't if you saw what came out of my sons arse today. More like we can tolerate our kids shit stink cause we have to, cause they rely on us to take care of them. That in itself is a kind of love as if we didn't love em then they would sit in their own filth forever or starve to death.