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I realise all sales have taken a bit of a downturn lately but in general, is there a resale market for leases? If I build a house on the piece of land I have rented can I sell it in ten years? or if I had 20 years remaining on a lease now, would there be a buyer?

I have also heard a few 'anti' comments about leasehold having loopholes. Just how safe am I from a dishonest landlord/freeholder?

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I realise all sales have taken a bit of a downturn lately but in general, is there a resale market for leases? If I build a house on the piece of land I have rented can I sell it in ten years? or if I had 20 years remaining on a lease now, would there be a buyer?

I have also heard a few 'anti' comments about leasehold having loopholes. Just how safe am I from a dishonest landlord/freeholder?

Not sure about the resale, but I would be pretty sure you can only sell the lease with the permission of the landlord/freeholder. From what I have seen (in my own case), the chanote legal document of the the land has your name and details on the back of the chanote. But the landlord/freeholder will have control of the chanote So if they are going to be difficult I don't see how you could sell the lease.

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I realise all sales have taken a bit of a downturn lately but in general, is there a resale market for leases? If I build a house on the piece of land I have rented can I sell it in ten years? or if I had 20 years remaining on a lease now, would there be a buyer?

I have also heard a few 'anti' comments about leasehold having loopholes. Just how safe am I from a dishonest landlord/freeholder?

Besides the legal issues, I don't think there will be much market for leasehold unless you are right in the centre of town like Rajprasong or Rajdamri Road or beach front.

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My friend who has leased a small plot has it written into the lease that he can sell it on. She got a lawyer to draft it though of course that does not always mean it's 'legal'.

Interesting post Adagio.

I have been looking at all the options I may use to move my house and land out of the company if the new FBA is a nasty little piece of law. I have not come across this option at all???

Was this 30 year lease registered with the land registry?

I have to say I am sceptical this would be of any real use in practise - BUT if someone has evidence of the contrary it would be another option.

Anyone heard of this???

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I have also heard a few 'anti' comments about leasehold having loopholes. Just how safe am I from a dishonest landlord/freeholder?

I am not an expert, but being a land 'owner' in a company name, I have made a lot of enquiries since the news last year that the land laws would be interpreted more rigidly.

My research into this has come up with the following:

- 30 year lease registered with the Land Registry office is very safe. It has been tested all the way up to the Supreme Court (I was advised this in a thread in TV - so may be worth looking for if you are interested). I have not heard of any loopholes.

- Incidentally - to dispel an urban myth here in Thailand - there is no such thing as a 30+ 30 lease. Only 30 years is recognised legally and then its up to the owner if they want to extend.

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I am not an expert, but being a land 'owner' in a company name, I have made a lot of enquiries since the news last year that the land laws would be interpreted more rigidly.

My research into this has come up with the following:

- 30 year lease registered with the Land Registry office is very safe. It has been tested all the way up to the Supreme Court (I was advised this in a thread in TV - so may be worth looking for if you are interested). I have not heard of any loopholes.

- Incidentally - to dispel an urban myth here in Thailand - there is no such thing as a 30+ 30 lease. Only 30 years is recognised legally and then its up to the owner if they want to extend.

Thank you, this is helpful. Especially the supreme court bit.

As regards 30 year leases with an option to extend the extension option cannot be registered with the land registry so is in effect useless. I have just read (www.chiangmailaw.com/leasing.htm ) about th possibility of a 50 year lease available to businesses making a 20M Baht investment though of course I might as well buy if I'm going to go down that dodgey path.

Most of the lawyer sites mentioning leases seem to think clauses on resale or transfer of ownership of the lease in the event of the death of either party are legal and above board and that a clause allowing sub leasing would negate any need for the assistance of an unco-operative landlord.

Back to my original question, Is there a market? I do not seem to be able to find leasehold properties to buy, just new leases from freeholders.

Edited by Adagio
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I've seen leaseholds for sale in Phuket. One website listed an apartment for sale with 25 years remaining on the lease. I would assume the asking price for such a leasehold will decrease as the time remaining on the lease decreases.

J

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- Incidentally - to dispel an urban myth here in Thailand - there is no such thing as a 30+ 30 lease. Only 30 years is recognised legally and then its up to the owner if they want to extend.

There can effectively be 30+30 years lease, if the first 30-year lease is stated with the option of renewal by the lessee with specific future increment for that renewal period. This is well protected since the lease has to be officially registered.

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only the first 30 years is registered...........the lease contract might state that the lessee has an option to renew for another 30 years or even state that the option is exercised with full advance payment now, but nevertheless, the second 30 year lease needs to be registered in future... if something happens (death, liquidation etc) to the original lessor (during the first 30 years) the contractual option to renew is gone... (BUT it might just be possible to mortgage the land in favor of the lessee to secure lessee's rights)....

besides the legal issues, I've seen leaseholds for sale (on Rajadamri Road) but it seem as the remaining lease term approaches 15 years or so, the re-sale prices drop dramatically...

Edited by trajan
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only the first 30 years is registered...........the lease contract might state that the lessee has an option to renew for another 30 years or even state that the option is exercised with full advance payment now, but nevertheless, the second 30 year lease needs to be registered in future... if something happens (death, liquidation etc) to the original lessor (during the first 30 years) the contractual option to renew is gone... (BUT it might just be possible to mortgage the land in favor of the lessee to secure lessee's rights)....

besides the legal issues, I've seen leaseholds for sale (on Rajadamri Road) but it seem as the remaining lease term approaches 15 years or so, the re-sale prices drop dramatically...

Upon death or liquidation of the lessor, the lessor through his estate executor or the company's liquidator still has the legal obligation of granting the rights to the lessees.

I am one of the leaseholders of a few properties along the Rajadamri Road and Rajprasong Road. Both lessors are famous and respectable. Under both long-term leases which are all well registered, the future renewal clause was at the mercy of the lessor and the lessee went in with the opened eyes recognising this disadvantage. But the lessees have the hope that when the time comes, the lessor would be fair like their past conducts.

The value of one property has gone down at a certain level but not proportionately to the prices they originally paid. The declining value is mainly caused by bad management even though the property is situated at the most desirable location facing the whole view of the Royal Bangkok Sports Club. The investment return is not that great.

However, the value of another property on that vicinity has gone up not down while the remaining period is shortened. The reason is mainly due to a good management and sporty Executive Committee who conducts the place like a hotel. There will always be refurbishing and improvements to the corridors etc. Occupancy rate has been in the range of 90% with high rental. The return to the investment is in the two digit range with large capital gain potential.

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only the first 30 years is registered...........the lease contract might state that the lessee has an option to renew for another 30 years or even state that the option is exercised with full advance payment now, but nevertheless, the second 30 year lease needs to be registered in future... if something happens (death, liquidation etc) to the original lessor (during the first 30 years) the contractual option to renew is gone... (BUT it might just be possible to mortgage the land in favor of the lessee to secure lessee's rights)....

besides the legal issues, I've seen leaseholds for sale (on Rajadamri Road) but it seem as the remaining lease term approaches 15 years or so, the re-sale prices drop dramatically...

Upon death or liquidation of the lessor, the lessor through his estate executor or the company's liquidator still has the legal obligation of granting the rights to the lessees.

I am one of the leaseholders of a few properties along the Rajadamri Road and Rajprasong Road. Both lessors are famous and respectable. Under both long-term leases which are all well registered, the future renewal clause was at the mercy of the lessor and the lessee went in with the opened eyes recognising this disadvantage. But the lessees have the hope that when the time comes, the lessor would be fair like their past conducts.

The value of one property has gone down at a certain level but not proportionately to the prices they originally paid. The declining value is mainly caused by bad management even though the property is situated at the most desirable location facing the whole view of the Royal Bangkok Sports Club. The investment return is not that great.

However, the value of another property on that vicinity has gone up not down while the remaining period is shortened. The reason is mainly due to a good management and sporty Executive Committee who conducts the place like a hotel. There will always be refurbishing and improvements to the corridors etc. Occupancy rate has been in the range of 90% with high rental. The return to the investment is in the two digit range with large capital gain potential.

Irene, Trajan is correct. The only legally binding lease is for a period of 30 years - registered at the Land Office.

The rest is just not worth the paper its is printed on! You say you have these 'well registered' with lessors 'famous and respectable'. Come off it - 'pull the other one' as they say in the UK. Who can say what these companies will be like in 30 years. Lets face it Enron were 'famous and respectable' just a few years ago!

I don't wish to be rude, but you really should not peddle this stuff as 'fact' on TV as is just confuses people.

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There can effectively be 30+30 years lease, if the first 30-year lease is stated with the option of renewal by the lessee with specific future increment for that renewal period. This is well protected since the lease has to be officially registered.

there is no such thing like 30+30 "officially registered". if it existed i would have done it already. "officially registered" is what the chanote mentions.

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Of course leaseholds can be assigned, so long as there is a provision for assignment within the contract. Although they are more difficult interests to dispose of.

Options can not be registered by themselves, they are merely clauses within a contract, the land office is not really interested in that but there seems to be no restrictions on the number of leases one can register on a title deed and nothing to stop someone from officially registering a lease prior to it's commencement date, just so long as all parties are in agreement.

Edited by quiksilva
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only the first 30 years is registered...........the lease contract might state that the lessee has an option to renew for another 30 years or even state that the option is exercised with full advance payment now, but nevertheless, the second 30 year lease needs to be registered in future... if something happens (death, liquidation etc) to the original lessor (during the first 30 years) the contractual option to renew is gone... (BUT it might just be possible to mortgage the land in favor of the lessee to secure lessee's rights)....

besides the legal issues, I've seen leaseholds for sale (on Rajadamri Road) but it seem as the remaining lease term approaches 15 years or so, the re-sale prices drop dramatically...

Upon death or liquidation of the lessor, the lessor through his estate executor or the company's liquidator still has the legal obligation of granting the rights to the lessees.

I am one of the leaseholders of a few properties along the Rajadamri Road and Rajprasong Road. Both lessors are famous and respectable. Under both long-term leases which are all well registered, the future renewal clause was at the mercy of the lessor and the lessee went in with the opened eyes recognising this disadvantage. But the lessees have the hope that when the time comes, the lessor would be fair like their past conducts.

The value of one property has gone down at a certain level but not proportionately to the prices they originally paid. The declining value is mainly caused by bad management even though the property is situated at the most desirable location facing the whole view of the Royal Bangkok Sports Club. The investment return is not that great.

However, the value of another property on that vicinity has gone up not down while the remaining period is shortened. The reason is mainly due to a good management and sporty Executive Committee who conducts the place like a hotel. There will always be refurbishing and improvements to the corridors etc. Occupancy rate has been in the range of 90% with high rental. The return to the investment is in the two digit range with large capital gain potential.

Irene, Trajan is correct. The only legally binding lease is for a period of 30 years - registered at the Land Office.

The rest is just not worth the paper its is printed on! You say you have these 'well registered' with lessors 'famous and respectable'. Come off it - 'pull the other one' as they say in the UK. Who can say what these companies will be like in 30 years. Lets face it Enron were 'famous and respectable' just a few years ago!

I don't wish to be rude, but you really should not peddle this stuff as 'fact' on TV as is just confuses people.

I think you are rude. Tell me what do I gain from so doing. I am a seasoned investor for thirty years on condominiums and equity. I am sharing my experience not as an observer because I have been so impressed with TV for the past help some of the members have given me. I am doing this just as a pay-back for the good deeds of others.

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Irene, please define "officially registered" (as mentioned by you).

It means the whole lease agreement covering the covenants and conditions are registered with and recognised by the government's district offices. This is stronger than a contract concluded by two parties and witnessed by others.

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Of course leaseholds can be assigned, so long as there is a provision for assignment within the contract. Although they are more difficult interests to dispose of.

Yes, you are right, leaseholds can be registered (or sub-leased) as long as the master lease contract allows it (normally with notice, but not consent of, the land owner). However, any assignment of the lease (if the remaining lease term exceeds 3 yrs) requires registeration.....

Options can not be registered by themselves, they are merely clauses within a contract, the land office is not really interested in that but there seems to be no restrictions on the number of leases one can register on a title deed and nothing to stop someone from officially registering a lease prior to it's commencement date, just so long as all parties are in agreement.

absolutely correct, lease extension options are merely private contractual promises (not registered rights).....but with respect to your second point, I actually tried to register a lease (commencing in the future)....was successful for a 30 yr registered lease commencing in a few months later (i.e., the scheduled date when some construction was to finish) BUT was firmly advised (by the Land Office) that one could not register an initial lease for 30 years and at the same time register another successive lease commencing 30 years later because the maximum registered lease period is 30 years (***there are some very exceptional 50 year leases)... I interpreted this to mean that you could only have a maximum of 30 years lease registered at any one time.....

quiksilva, is your experience different? if so, I guess one could (one "day-one") register three, four or five successive 30 year leases (paying 1.1% registration fee based on the entire 90 or 120 years rent) and we could just go about like the HK system and stop the debate.... however, I honestly do not think this is the case....

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Irene, please define "officially registered" (as mentioned by you).

It means the whole lease agreement covering the covenants and conditions are registered with and recognised by the government's district offices. This is stronger than a contract concluded by two parties and witnessed by others.

Irene, thank you for your always helpful, informative and intelligent posts and opinions....

just my two cents on the topic...

I believe we need to separate the concept of: (a) registering the lease itself and ( b ) registering all of the detailed terms of the lease agreement....

in my experience, only the 30 year lease itself is registered (as reflected on an official government short form and also on the reverse of the title deed).

The more detailed actual lease agreement could be attached (but is not required to be attached) as an addendum to the official government short form. The Land Office nor the official process recognize, sanction or somehow legally elevate the detailed extraneous terms of the addendum. rather, the addendum is merely a private contractual promise between the parties of the day (i.e., the landlord and the tenant).....if the landlord dies (or liquidates etc. in the case of a corporate landlord) the new owner of the land is not legally bond to honor any contractual promises of the previous owner....

however, if the landlord is the "Crown Property Bureau" or the "Royal Privy Purse", it might be a safer bet that that particular landlord will be around in 30 years' times and will honor any contractual promises to renew the lease.... however, if the landlord is Khun Somsak or Lucky Happy Gold Ltd., I really would not count on that landlord being around to honor the renewal terms of the lease in 30 years time....

some people (lessees) have tried to secure themselves by taking possession of the original title deed and having a mortgage put in place to secure their lessee rights, but I would be interested to know if these mechanisms have been tried and tested ...

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if so, I guess one could (one "day-one") register three, four or five successive 30 year leases (paying 1.1% registration fee based on the entire 90 or 120 years rent) and we could just go about like the HK system and stop the debate.... however, I honestly do not think this is the case....

of course this is not the case. if it was the case or if Irene's model was legally "watertight" protecting the farang investor/homeownner, the problem "farang owning land" wouldn't exist and renowned law firms like Sunbelt Asia would definitely know about it.

unfortunately, from what i gathered, Sunbelt has a negative view on "30+30+xyz".

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only the first 30 years is registered...........the lease contract might state that the lessee has an option to renew for another 30 years or even state that the option is exercised with full advance payment now, but nevertheless, the second 30 year lease needs to be registered in future... if something happens (death, liquidation etc) to the original lessor (during the first 30 years) the contractual option to renew is gone... (BUT it might just be possible to mortgage the land in favor of the lessee to secure lessee's rights)....

besides the legal issues, I've seen leaseholds for sale (on Rajadamri Road) but it seem as the remaining lease term approaches 15 years or so, the re-sale prices drop dramatically...

Upon death or liquidation of the lessor, the lessor through his estate executor or the company's liquidator still has the legal obligation of granting the rights to the lessees.

I am one of the leaseholders of a few properties along the Rajadamri Road and Rajprasong Road. Both lessors are famous and respectable. Under both long-term leases which are all well registered, the future renewal clause was at the mercy of the lessor and the lessee went in with the opened eyes recognising this disadvantage. But the lessees have the hope that when the time comes, the lessor would be fair like their past conducts.

The value of one property has gone down at a certain level but not proportionately to the prices they originally paid. The declining value is mainly caused by bad management even though the property is situated at the most desirable location facing the whole view of the Royal Bangkok Sports Club. The investment return is not that great.

However, the value of another property on that vicinity has gone up not down while the remaining period is shortened. The reason is mainly due to a good management and sporty Executive Committee who conducts the place like a hotel. There will always be refurbishing and improvements to the corridors etc. Occupancy rate has been in the range of 90% with high rental. The return to the investment is in the two digit range with large capital gain potential.

Irene, Trajan is correct. The only legally binding lease is for a period of 30 years - registered at the Land Office.

The rest is just not worth the paper its is printed on! You say you have these 'well registered' with lessors 'famous and respectable'. Come off it - 'pull the other one' as they say in the UK. Who can say what these companies will be like in 30 years. Lets face it Enron were 'famous and respectable' just a few years ago!

I don't wish to be rude, but you really should not peddle this stuff as 'fact' on TV as is just confuses people.

I think you are rude. Tell me what do I gain from so doing. I am a seasoned investor for thirty years on condominiums and equity. I am sharing my experience not as an observer because I have been so impressed with TV for the past help some of the members have given me. I am doing this just as a pay-back for the good deeds of others.

The fact is there are naive farang - like I was 5 years ago - who read and take at face value the views of well intentioned decent people like yourself.

It was nice decent people like yourself as well as Estate Agents and others that told me it was OK to buy my house and land in the company name. I believed these people.

Now I hear all over the place 'its OK to buy your property with a 30+30+30 lease'.

Its almost the same mantra that I heard 5 years ago about land 'ownership' through the company route.

And look at us lucky landowners now!!! Awaiting the result of the FBA - oh joy!!!

Acquiring your land through a lease is only guaranteed for 30 years if registered at the land Registry.

Anything beyond this is at the discretion of the land owner, whoever that may be in 30 years time.

So I would please please please politely ask you to stop saying otherwise.

I however repeat, I am not an expert, just a farang who got conned 5 years ago and now do all I can to warn others of the

the folly of listening to stuff like this. :o

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The fact is there are naive farang - like I was 5 years ago - who read and take at face value the views of well intentioned decent people like yourself.

It was nice decent people like yourself as well as Estate Agents and others that told me it was OK to buy my house and land in the company name. I believed these people.

Now I hear all over the place 'its OK to buy your property with a 30+30+30 lease'.

Its almost the same mantra that I heard 5 years ago about land 'ownership' through the company route.

And look at us lucky landowners now!!! Awaiting the result of the FBA - oh joy!!!

Acquiring your land through a lease is only guaranteed for 30 years if registered at the land Registry.

Anything beyond this is at the discretion of the land owner, whoever that may be in 30 years time.

So I would please please please politely ask you to stop saying otherwise.

I however repeat, I am not an expert, just a farang who got conned 5 years ago and now do all I can to warn others of the

the folly of listening to stuff like this. :o

Just because you were conned 5 years ago, now you like me to stop saying something that is at variance with your belief. Unfortunately, I cannot oblige since I am born as a free person and still believe that 30+30 year lease is possible. I am not in an estate business but a person with independent means with no ulterior motives in joining this TV forum which is the best I have ever experienced. I may be wrong and I may be right that is up to the readers to judge on our rationales. There is no monetary reward or reward of any nature in sharing my knowledge and experience with others.

I have promised myself on the TV forum not ever to insult people with different point of view from mine or cast on their intelligence just because of my knowledge and experience being different from theirs. I have seen a few ugliness in this forum when the exchange was reduced to childishness. In sticking to this principle, I have learnt quite a lot from others and it has also changed my thinking and attitude when I was proven wrong.

To state that "Anything beyond this (the first 30-year lease) is at the discretion of the land owner, whoever that may be in 30 years time." is a generalised statement without recognising the free intention of the lessor and lessee. It also reflects on the lack of impartial reading of my message. My message was that even if the landlord dies before 30 years is up, the successor to the property is still obliged to the legal commitment as previously made by the deceased because the land is subject to that incumbrance already registered with the officials. It is not 100% protection but rarely has the landlord won the case when there is this dispute in court which is not often. Similarly, if the landlord is a company, the company's liquidator is obliged to follow the legal commitment previously made by the company. All I require to hear is for someone to tell me that I am mistaken and why. If I am wrong, then I would apologise and learn of the new ground and become a better man. If I am right, then others could benefit from this TV forum in knowing the right standing of the renewal clause of 30 years.

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...because the land is subject to that incumbrance already registered with the officials

Irene,

unspecific claims and expressions like "registered and recognised at district offices" or "registered with the officials" or "i believe" are not very helpful for those of us who are trying to secure our investment in immobile property.

give us details please. most of us do not understand legal lingo but i am sure we would understand if you explain what a district office is and in what form the incumbrance was registered with what kind of officials.

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At first glance Irene's comments looked nicely written, but against logic learnt from living here, as well as my basic, but reasonable, understanding of legal documents.

(I've recently dealt with Thai land offices, Thai lawyers and Thai judges and I'm very pleased that the land office documents, clear Thai laws and a good Thai lawyer were on my side otherwise I would have lost land / money.)[My missus's land of course.]

Common sense tells us that a maximum term 30 year lease means just that. And we also know that liberal interpretation of Thai land laws is not sensible.

The land office have authority. Registered district offices, recognised district offices, officials and many other terms are generic terms with limited meaning in this case, which is irrelevant anyway because the land office have authority and we must abide by their rules wholely and completely.

Irene's last paragraph concerning the lease owner dying and the successor having a legal obligation to respect the contract may be true on a land office authorised 30 year lease, but it won't be applicable to a 30 year + 1 second lease (on the plus segment).

Nice words don't hide the fact. I would not take Irene's advice.

Sorry Irene. I'm not flamming you, I just disagree with your point. I'm keen to hear your answer to Dr Naam's questions. I'm always willing to learn.

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...because the land is subject to that incumbrance already registered with the officials

Irene,

unspecific claims and expressions like "registered and recognised at district offices" or "registered with the officials" or "i believe" are not very helpful for those of us who are trying to secure our investment in immobile property.

give us details please. most of us do not understand legal lingo but i am sure we would understand if you explain what a district office is and in what form the incumbrance was registered with what kind of officials.

Sorry for being legalistic without realising it.

First,under the Thai Civil and Commercial Code, a lease of more than 3 years cannot be effective if it is not registered with the Land Office. The Land Office is spreaded all over Thailand with each relevant district. (A lease of three years or less does not require this registration).

Second, a lease cannot exceed a period of 30 years but can be with a renewal clause of not more than another 30 years.

Third, when registering with the Land District Office, there is a standard official form issued by the Land Office stating the name of the lessor and the lessee, period involved, the amount of rental charges, and other conditions as an official evidence of the registration. Under the clause,"Other conditions", it is stated as "shall be in accordance with the lease contract signed by the lessor and lessee on 22 November 1999 as attached to this official lease agreement. The attachment shall be regarded as an integral part of this official lease", ( the official registration date was on 31 January 2000). The attachment is the detailed agreement between the two parties covering normal covenants and conditions including a condition of renewal and is officially stamped as evidence as part of the official lease.

Fourth, the official lease has to be signed by the lessor and lessee or their proxy and witnessed by two officials of the Land District Office.

Fifth, the official lease and the attachment are made into three sets, one each for the lessor and the lessee and another set as signed by all the parties shall be kept by the District Office as a public record.

Sixth, there is a payment of 1% registration fee and 0.1% stamp duty on the total rental charge.

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At the end of the day I thought that NO 30 year lease has even expired yet, and its seen as a non-tested law what will happen to extensions etc...

My understanding also was that if the leaseholder were to pass away or sell the property, then ANY extension would be unenforcable.

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jasreeve17,

My comments are in bold type:-

At first glance Irene's comments looked nicely written, but against logic learnt from living here, as well as my basic, but reasonable, understanding of legal documents.

(I've recently dealt with Thai land offices, Thai lawyers and Thai judges and I'm very pleased that the land office documents, clear Thai laws and a good Thai lawyer were on my side otherwise I would have lost land / money.)[My missus's land of course.]

Common sense tells us that a maximum term 30 year lease means just that. And we also know that liberal interpretation of Thai land laws is not sensible.

Under the law, it allows a renewal period and not a liberal interpretation.

The land office have authority. Registered district offices, recognised district offices, officials and many other terms are generic terms with limited meaning in this case, which is irrelevant anyway because the land office have authority and we must abide by their rules wholely and completely.

Sorry, it was my mistake in using the term District Office. I should have stated as Land District Office. It is the branch of the Land Department.

Irene's last paragraph concerning the lease owner dying and the successor having a legal obligation to respect the contract may be true on a land office authorised 30 year lease, but it won't be applicable to a 30 year + 1 second lease (on the plus segment).

Once a lease agreement is effective, the death of the lessor or the bankruptcy of the lessor company does not affect the right of occupation of the lessee. However, a change of a lessee during the lease period is subject to approval of the lessor.

Nice words don't hide the fact. I would not take Irene's advice.

At least, I am glad that it appears as nice words. It is just my style of not hurting people's feeling. That does not make any difference to me whether my advice is taken so long as I have a chance to state my point of view and not like in one case of telling me to discontinue discussing on this subject.

Sorry Irene. I'm not flamming you, I just disagree with your point. I'm keen to hear your answer to Dr Naam's questions. I'm always willing to learn.

Oh, you are proper and nicely put on your doubt. I understand the feeling once one has this hang up idea of what one understood. Dr. Naam's questions also taught me not ever to use the words, "District Office", "I believe", "encumbrances". That is the whole beauty of this Forum of people trying to help each other.

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A 30 year lease is just that. I took out a 30 year lease registered with the land office way back when I first thought about moving to Thailand. In my contract, I was allowed to renew the lease for a further 30 years which was more than enough for my needs at the time.

At about year 23 the landowner told me that he was selling the land and told me that I would have no further extension of the lease. When I took my contract to the land office they pointed out that the registered lease was for 30 years only. I still own the house on the land but do not have the right of abode there.

30 years is 30 years and that is it! Anything else is not worth the paper it is written on as it cannot be registered at the land office.

Also very important is the fact that the 30 year lease is not transferable. The only way to sub let is to have the original landowner sign a new lease with the new lessor. You cannot sell it.

With the above said and done I understand that TAT and the original Thai elite card are coming up with some program to provide lifetime transferable leases and that the company that they are setting up is to be listed on the stock exchange - I cannot confirm or advise on the legality of this scheme as I don't have enough info and am not qualified to do so.

I strongly suggest that anyone purchasing property (land) at this time goes the leasing method as it is still the only legal way that a foreigner can secure the land in his name albeit for a limited period.

OH

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Come on are you kidding!! :o There isn't a re sale market for ANY property a farlang buys in Thailand unless he can find another farlang sucker...and even then its not that easy. We BUY property we never can actually SELL!!!! :D

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