Has Your Body Image Of Yourself In Los Changed?

[sbk]

I agree, Thai women are harder on themselves and each other than on us farang (see my comment above regarding our staff members). And yes, alot of it is hurtful nidge, not meant to be a comment on healthy looking. Perhaps with farang women it is not as they don't know us well enough to be hurtful or then again, perhaps not.

I think Bangkok and big cities are far worse for that constant push to look skinny and fit the cultural norm than in the country IME as the local women seem far less obssessed about their appearance and their weight than city girls. But, as nidge pointed out, even in rural areas, it is still there.

Another one that Thai women have to deal with is the constant criticism of their skin color- something most farang women will get complimented on on a regular basis. But god help a Thai girl with darker skin-- unfair and usually not put in a nice way.

So, in all, I'd much rather be a fat farang thanks very much. I am happy with the way I look and do not pay much attention to what some people think is acceptable in their own eyes.

[Macx]

But what about the positive sides? Instantly, you're good looking because of the big nose, round eyes, and pale complexion.

Hundreds of thousands, millions of Thai women, would trade a few extra kilos for those assets

[villagefarang]

Sure when you first come here there is an adjustment period. It may be easier for men as we are, all of a sudden, much taller and more powerful. All this stuff is relative, however.

If the majority of people are taller then you are short. If the majority are fatter then you are thin by comparison. If the majority are older then you are younger. It runs through all things. Our brains work by comparing things. It is that simple.

It is not about being rude or hurtful. The only person you can control in these situations is yourself and how you feel. It does no good to degrade someone for making what amounts to culturally acceptable comments in their own country.

It may not be fair but there are no guaranties in life that people are going to like you or be complimentary of how you look. We are not all equal or treated the same where ever we go.

Many posts have detailed the size and shape of their body parts. That may be reinforcing and therapeutic on some level but doesn't really deal with the issue. Some of it sounds rather self-indulgent.

[kat]

VF:

I understand some of your sentiments, but this is a thread where women are talking openly about our experiences here. We are not degrading anyone here. Although I understand what you are saying about culturally acceptable comments, sometimes they are actually degrading and meant to be so.

I haven't heard anyone here talking about guarantees, either.

Some of it does sound self-indulgent, some of it sounds self-deprecating, and some of it sounds very honest as well - just like in life, the way women talk to each other.

[bina]

eek, u know, the thai thing that women must wear bras, even if they are flat chested they wont be caught dead w/o....

well, my nipples are the standup outish kind so bra or not, they show up... and i wont wear the popular 'filled' or ' push up' that are sold here cause i really hate anything constricting me and went braless for a zillion years. so i end up wearing the teenager 'training' bras which sort of hold me up a bit but dont cover the naughty nipples :) -- most women here also will wear a bra even if the shirt is worn falling off the body, or the straps show up thru the backless shirt... talk about fashion cultural things....the bra thing is my concession to my husband's cultural hangups. thats ok., he makes some concessions too when needed here.

i think that my husband also has the country way of seeing 'fat', i.e. a fuller, less skinny person means they are well fed, therefore they must have money, cause a really skinny person doesnt have enough to eat. he really enjoys it when i am stuffed (my tummy distends noticeably after i eat a good meal, not bloated, just full ) , good appetite for him is very important, he doesnt like the 'peck at the food' and 'farang salad' type meals that he sees the women here eating (u know, diet style eating habits). but this is a poor country man who really doesnt care about fashion clothing etc., he also really likes fat chubby roly poly babies and children, and often points out skinny or thin babies and children as 'maybe they dont get enough to eat, may mother doesnt give breast milk, maybe they are sick'.

i've noticed actually that the thai here do respond more to chubbier children as they are 'healthier' (well fed?). and they will often comment also about animals that are 'too skinny' (pom maak). this must be a country poor people thing where FAT means wealth/food....

what do u all think l know its not about women weight in thailand but an interesting side line of cultural perceptions in general.

bina

[mssabai]

I am not thin by thai standards, but still do not feel any more negative about my body than I did at home. I am 5'9 and can sympathise with the giant feeling at times, but I feel I have always had this as I have chosen a particular group of friends who all stand no taller than 5'2. I actually find the thai straightforward attitude to weight in Thailand very refreshing. Sure there are some PMS stricken days when I very nearly land a punch on the cook at work for giving me a fat comment...and I DO get them, from friends and foes alike....but all it takes is an overweight thai friend grabbing her stomache and laughing about how fat she is to realise that this openess about weight can actually be a healthy thing. Sure the ideal in Thailand is to be a size 4 stick insect, but if you aren't then people do not seem to carry around the same guilt and shame as they do in the west. This may just be a saving face tactic and I am not saying that people aren't upset about their excess weight, but it is just less of an embaressment. In the west too often friends will openly lie to their frerinds who ask "have I put on weight" or "do I look fat?". OK be tactful, but at the same time what is the purpose in lying about something that is probably blatantly obvious (and something people are most probably talking about behind their back).

I find it pretty useful in Thailand to walk in to a jeans shop and them to immediately work out my size by eye and tell me if they have my size or not. I used to try and prove them wrong by squeezing myself into their largest jeans, only to leave empty handed, but now I realise that there is no point. There is nothing to prove, they are only being honest. If you do feel that someone is being deliberately spiteful, well nobody is perfect so perhaps a little smiley comment about bad skin, greasy hair or height (or even what a great 'tan' they have) may make them think twice about saying this kind of thing, or it may not but it will make you feel better. I know it isn't always easy to be in a country where the average body shape is so vastly different to our own, but if you are unhappy, do something about it. If you can't then you have nothing to feel bad about and you should just embrace it and take heart that whatever is being said to you, it is better to your face than behind your back.

[buffcoat]

I believe that the farang reaction to being described as fat i.e. that it is an insult because of Western views regarding health is very different to the Thai perception.

If you are fat to a Thai this means you are wealthy enough to eat well and will probably be healthier than a farm worker who lives hand to mouth.Turn back the clock in Europe to the time when Reubens was painting and you see larger women were the ideal against a background of a large population living on poor incomes.

Thai's do not seem to differentiate between fat ,meaning a well built healthy woman/man and fat meaning someone who is obese.

Since Thai's generally shy away from confrontation I doubt that they are using fat as an insult,it is merely an easy way to say that farangs are generally physically more robust, which is of course true.

I am not surprised that Thai men react with enthusiasm to well built farang ladies since we (men) generally like variety and it is nice to get 'friendly' with someone who has additional assets particularly if you have only been sampling the petite section.

Whatever your basic body shape you are going to be of 'interest', accept what you are and enjoy it. If you feel yourself to be different to the majority around you,then be grateful for it as it means you are not another clone in the crowd.

[sbk]

Actually, villagefarang, the comments I was referring to were not being directed at me but rather at a Thai woman who did, in fact, find them hurtful, as did nidge's wife when they were aimed at her. So, perhaps you misunderstand what is culturally acceptable and what is hurtful. These Thai women most certainly did not.

Have to say, that one thing that has changed is my own perception of my white skin. Having heard for so many years how beautiful it is, I've come to accept my white skin for what it is rather than risk skin cancer for something I think I should have.

[villagefarang]

Actually, villagefarang, the comments I was referring to were not being directed at me but rather at a Thai woman who did, in fact, find them hurtful, as did nidge's wife when they were aimed at her. So, perhaps you misunderstand what is culturally acceptable and what is hurtful. These Thai women most certainly did not.

Have to say, that one thing that has changed is my own perception of my white skin. Having heard for so many years how beautiful it is, I've come to accept my white skin for what it is rather than risk skin cancer for something I think I should have.

The white skin thing is a good example of things being relative. It is the same skin one always had but comparison with others or a different cultural bias makes it seem lighter or darker, better or worse.

It just seems life would be much easier if we could just accept differences as a given and not allow others view to get us all moody and down on ourselves or all competitive about who is right and who is wrong.

It is interesting how a Thai could perhaps go through their whole life with a nick name like FAT or ROTUND, or some variation there of, and think nothing of it where another would be upset by hearing the same word.

I still say it is in the ear of the hearer, to bend a phrase. The very same words can be interpreted in different ways and one can choose to be sensitive and offended or not. People often get themselves in hot water by trying to over think things and reading too much into innocuous events or comments.

As always this is just a general observation from my point of view and not meant to be viewed as an attempt to disagree with or negate what someone else has said or meant. We are all free to feel and react to things as we choose. My way seems to work well for me and if others are happy with their results then more power to them.

And for KAT

I liked your response and felt you summed up your position well with that last sentence.

"Some of it does sound self-indulgent, some of it sounds self-deprecating, and some of it sounds very honest as well - just like in life, the way women talk to each other."

[bina]

maybe the exposure in the media etc is at fault here; my husband's mother's age group dont even 'do' their hair. either its very long or chopped off short. they throw on a patung and shirt, and there u go, fashion (which my duaghter made fashionable here actually, many of her friends want pa siin now...) so their idea of healthy = fat (not obese but plump, rotund whatever u want ot call it. they dont watch t.v. (dont have one most of the shacks in his muu baan dont have; i brought a womens mag with me from korat and it was looked at once or twice and relegated to the young girls. this unfortunate cause these same young girls WILL grow up with this fat\thin thing.

i guess i have skin of an elephant to certain things (comes from living on kibbutz) and the 'you so boney' comments in israel are the equivalent of what i got in thailand... neither of which i care about. i am glad that i have a husband whose main comment when asked for an opinion involving clothing/looks/hair is 'mai son jai' (i dont pay attention). i could probably dye my hair purple and he wouldnt notice and neither would his family i think. but they are very much 'bannork' even his sisters and aunts (except for one in france who spent way too much time dressing her daughter and her everyday,just for a jaunt to the fields... gimme a break i dont have patience for flouncing and prissing really) ... his father wears a loin clothe and tattoes and thats about it...

i still think country thai have a different perception of the word 'fat' (aoun). i remember one guy telling me that he'd been to visit a friend's 'sister' when on a home country visit and reporting that she looked much healthier with plump red cheeks and more 'meat' on her. she was my age and had adopted the israeli diet lunch style of eating (rabbit food, or 'buffalo food' as the guys called it). when she went back home to nongkhai, she went back to eating sticky rice and home cooking and gained back the weight she had lost while living and working for an israeli family here. he used the word aoun as a compliment as in 'robust' 'healthy' eating properly, not over worked. many of these thai seem to equate headaches and being too thin as being 'overworked' 'thinking too much'... it really must be the difference between teh country and the city.

as for western women, well, i think , IN GENERAL, they identify theselves way too much by the skin/wrinkles/clothes/body shape/as a personal identity, maybe thai women see it more as 'keeping their husband', or 'the icing on the cake' but not part of their identity. and maybe the self conciousness becomes more defined as u go up the economic ladder or in to the city. but people are individuals too and where many women may take offense, others may laugh about it. i just dont understand why when u live in one culture it gives u 'issues' with yourself if your body build is from an other culture unless u werent ok with it previously...

tell me, what is the word for 'diet ' in thai?? i've never even heard it used; not in conjunciton with nutrition, and not as a 'thing' that u do either.

bina

[kat]

... but if you are unhappy, do something about it. If you can't then you have nothing to feel bad about and you should just embrace it and take heart that whatever is being said to you, it is better to your face than behind your back.

Actually, I don't really feel bad per se, and when I do, I always do something about it. I started this thread to hear other thoughts about how their body image may have been affected in LOS, a very body conscious place where we most definitely do stand out. For me, it was even more so, because my body type did not fit the Thai ideal or the Anglo/European ideal. In addition to being foreign, LOS can be a very polarized place for Western women and Western men, even if you share the exact same culture and background. My posts have been to talk about that experience and gain perspectives from others. Thanks for your comments.

I can relate to most of what you said, except for a bit of the last comment above. I definitely view the outright comments from people who know you much differently, and it doesn't bother me as much become I also come from a very direct ethnic sub-culture. However, there is also A LOT of snide comments behind your back in LOS as well, or in Thai, when they think you don't understand.

i still think country thai have a different perception of the word 'fat' (aoun). i remember one guy telling me that he'd been to visit a friend's 'sister' when on a home country visit and reporting that she looked much healthier with plump red cheeks and more 'meat' on her. she was my age and had adopted the israeli diet lunch style of eating (rabbit food, or 'buffalo food' as the guys called it). when she went back home to nongkhai, she went back to eating sticky rice and home cooking and gained back the weight she had lost while living and working for an israeli family here. he used the word aoun as a compliment as in 'robust' 'healthy' eating properly, not over worked. many of these thai seem to equate headaches and being too thin as being 'overworked' 'thinking too much'... it really must be the difference between teh country and the city.

as for western women, well, i think , IN GENERAL, they identify theselves way too much by the skin/wrinkles/clothes/body shape/as a personal identity, maybe thai women see it more as 'keeping their husband', or 'the icing on the cake' but not part of their identity. and maybe the self conciousness becomes more defined as u go up the economic ladder or in to the city. but people are individuals too and where many women may take offense, others may laugh about it. i just dont understand why when u live in one culture it gives u 'issues' with yourself if your body build is from an other culture unless u werent ok with it previously...

tell me, what is the word for 'diet ' in thai?? i've never even heard it used; not in conjunciton with nutrition, and not as a 'thing' that u do either.

bina

I think you are right about different perceptions about rural and city, and even regions, however, I am sure that Thais are very conscious of size regardless. After a certain age, it may not be as much as an issue the same way walking around topless is not an issue.

As far as Western women identifying themselves by skin, wrinkles, clothes as a personal identity, I think that is true everywhere to some extent because of the media as you explained, but in my experience in Thailand it is much more so. Also, the effects on identity and recognition of it take different forms. In the West, there is a bit more diversity of thought on appearance, and there are many women who do not even wear makeup or do the clothing thing. In Bangkok, it seemed that more than 90% of the females don't leave the house without a full face of makeup and a full-on outfit; so yes, very different.

In terms of the word 'diet' in Thai, I don't know what it is, but I know how to eat slim because Thai women would tell me - don't eat sticky rice and don't eat the curries. There's also A LOT of diet pills and diet teas around, and cheap plastic surgeons everywhere.

In terms of my "issue with my body if my build is from another culture," no, as I said, I've never had an issue with it *previously or since. I was talking from my experience as living as a single woman in Thailand, and primarily Bangkok, and exploring how the surrounding other cultures - both Asian and English/Anglo Saxon/European *male culture - started to affect my body image, but not my identity; that always remains in tact regardless of where I am, but I think by the very nature of our changing bodies and environment, body image is more susceptible to influences, despite our best efforts.

*This thread is simply an attempt at honest discussion about it is all.

*edit

Edited November 13, 2007 by kat

[canadiangirl]

In the West, there is a bit more diversity of thought on appearance, and there are many women who do not even wear makeup or do the clothing thing. In Bangkok, it seemed that more than 90% of the females don't leave the house without a full face of makeup and a full-on outfit; so yes, very different.

I definitely agree with you here, Kat. While I find people in Thailand definitely take good care of their appearance, there is really just one or two looks that women have, mostly ultra-femme: long hair, skirts, high heels. There is no diversity of fashion and style, like you see in the West, and even in other Asian countries like Japan.

(As a side note, I find this a bit sad -- if the Thai aesthetic could just diversify a bit, I could see Thailand as a major player in the international fashion scene, as people there seem to really have an innate sense of design and beauty.)

At home, there are a ton of different looks you can sport as a woman: business, ultra-feminine, arty, classic, nerdy, sporty, funky, hip-hop, indie, etc ... whereas as a young woman in Thailand, it's "look like a girly girl" or "look like lesbian". There's a small contingent of hipster urban Thai kids that seem involved in the art scene, and some indie music kids, but they are very sparse.

[kat]

p.s. Kat, from one girl to another, forget the haters, you have a *fabulous* booty! I remember noticing this about you when we went out dancing. :-)

Hey sweetie pie - How've you been? Be sure to email me before you go to LOS, or when you get there.

P.S. - thanks for checkin' out my booty

[bina]

what is 'indie'? -- i must be missing up on a lot of anglo slang...

diversity: well it seems that thai people dont really strive for diversity. they strive to 'be the same as the other guys' , not stick out, so clothes styles and habits would tie in, wouldnt it?

diversity is a cultural thing also, dont forget. many cultures strive for that, and others strive for the 'sameness'...that clothing/makeup etc is just the 'uniform' and not the way u show your personality... do thai fashion trends talk about 'making a statement' or is that a strictly american thing?

what i was trying to say was that for many women their identity is tied up in how they look, or the changes in how they look (the 30+ woman feeling depressed about her age and ageing, etc)... and for other women, how they look is just like choosing the shirt for the day: its something thats needed but not necessary as they view their looks as an asset but if u dont have 'it' then its ok also.

too bad i cant read thai to see how women see themselves if written in articles.

bina

jsut had a thought: i do feel 'hairier' then thai women , or many thai men for that matter.

Edited November 13, 2007 by bina

[Dissolution]

From a guy's point of view, I used to avidly go to the gym back home. When I got here, I continued to frequent the gym at my condo. I did so to keep fit, and to look good.

My girlfriend, however, disagreed. She felt that guys who work out look 'scary', and much prefers average built guys. At first, I just cut down on how frequent I went... but laziness set in after a while, and my subconscious started to agree with her, which somewhat explains why I no longer go to the gym.

I used to do it as part of my routine, but once I fell out of it, I found it really hard to go back.

Current progress: Still trying to stop procrastinating and head down.

[kat]

what is 'indie'? -- i must be missing up on a lot of anglo slang...

diversity: well it seems that thai people dont really strive for diversity. they strive to 'be the same as the other guys' , not stick out, so clothes styles and habits would tie in, wouldnt it?

diversity is a cultural thing also, dont forget. many cultures strive for that, and others strive for the 'sameness'...that clothing/makeup etc is just the 'uniform' and not the way u show your personality... do thai fashion trends talk about 'making a statement' or is that a strictly american thing?

what i was trying to say was that for many women their identity is tied up in how they look, or the changes in how they look (the 30+ woman feeling depressed about her age and ageing, etc)... and for other women, how they look is just like choosing the shirt for the day: its something thats needed but not necessary as they view their looks as an asset but if u dont have 'it' then its ok also.

too bad i cant read thai to see how women see themselves if written in articles.

bina

jsut had a thought: i do feel 'hairier' then thai women , or many thai men for that matter.

"Indie" is the short way of saying the "independent" rock scene, or the "independent" film scene. They are more like anti-corporate, or anti-big business way of saying independent, and more experimental, less mass culture.

*And I totally agree on the "diversity is cultural" point.

From a guy's point of view, I used to avidly go to the gym back home. When I got here, I continued to frequent the gym at my condo. I did so to keep fit, and to look good.

My girlfriend, however, disagreed. She felt that guys who work out look 'scary', and much prefers average built guys. At first, I just cut down on how frequent I went... but laziness set in after a while, and my subconscious started to agree with her, which somewhat explains why I no longer go to the gym.

I used to do it as part of my routine, but once I fell out of it, I found it really hard to go back.

Current progress: Still trying to stop procrastinating and head down.

oh, man - you sound like my twin brother on that one (procrastination and working out). The funny thing is, I am a total schizo about it though, because when I get in shape I am a total fitness, gym person. It seems to be all or nothing with me.

I kind of can relate to what your girlfriend is saying, except that I like my men fit, but not those big super, pumped up guys - never really look at them.

Talking about body image: when I was in my mid to late 20s, I was so incredibly fit that I deliberately let myself get out of shape again just so that I could accept my body at all levels. Talk about crazy kids - ha. Now, I just keep galling myself to back to the gym. Of course, it will happen, but sooner would be better. I hate to say it, and I will probably get flak - but hay, I'm bearing my warts and all here - but I probably need a good, solid crush on someone to jump-kick me back to the gym, lol.

Edited November 13, 2007 by kat

[fruittbatt]

I came to Thailand almost three years ago, in my mid fifties, weighing 65kg. I had always had large hips, big thighs, generous breasts. Yes, I had all the horrid experiences of never being able to buy stuff that fitted unless it was matronly and synthetic, or extremely overpriced imported stuff. Yes, Thais always told me how fat I was, despite my "good" proportions, flattish stomach and reasonable level of fitness.

Three years later I weigh 49kg, partly due to careful diet, yoga, walking, AND social pressure. Who wants to spend her life being outsized in a tiny persons' country, a kind of "invisible" female Gulliver figure? I think our perceptions of what is normal in body shape and size are totally culturally conditioned. In the West "big" is normal despite the anorexic super-model myths of beauty. Here in Thailand "slenderness" is a national fetish. I see no reason to occupy a bigger space on the planet than is good for my health - both physical and psychological. I have never felt better than I do now for having shed weight and along with it my perceptions of what constitutes a "normal" body image.

If I were to gain weight for reasons beyond my control I would accept that. The great thing to celebrate is our diversity as women not the sizes of our boobs, waists, or hips. I will often make a point of complimenting older Thai women on their beauty (inner grace, dignity, genuine friendliness, kindness, or well-groomed appearance) to emphasize the point that beauty is not a matter of slenderness, or of whitening cream, pink blusher, or applying eye-make you would need an excavator to remove.

[kat]

Thanks, FB. That was a great post!

[Andiamo]

Sure the ideal in Thailand is to be a size 4 stick insect, but if you aren't then people do not seem to carry around the same guilt and shame as they do in the west. This may just be a saving face tactic and I am not saying that people aren't upset about their excess weight, but it is just less of an embaressment. In the west too often friends will openly lie to their frerinds who ask "have I put on weight" or "do I look fat?". OK be tactful, but at the same time what is the purpose in lying about something that is probably blatantly obvious (and something people are most probably talking about behind their back).

I am not sure that I would agree with you on this point. I think that if somebody is carrying excess weight, THEY know about it already (from the skirt or trouserband cutting into them, or not being able to fit into their jeans/skirt/trousers etc ). In my opinion, I think there is no need for anyone to draw attention to it unnecessarily and it can only serve to make the person feel even less good about themselves.

I don't think it is true to say that "it is just less of an embarrassment". I think that perhaps people's reactions may differ - some shyer, less confident people may just smile awkwardly, or not do or say anything, whereas more confident people may retort with "Yeah I know" or give you a dirty look. However, I think most people would feel bad inside - just may not choose to demonstrate their feelings so openly.

I find it pretty useful in Thailand to walk in to a jeans shop and them to immediately work out my size by eye and tell me if they have my size or not.

Yep, I agree with you! Those gals know their stuff!

but if you are unhappy, do something about it. If you can't then you have nothing to feel bad about and you should just embrace it and take heart that whatever is being said to you, it is better to your face than behind your back.

Sure this is the no-nonsense approach to do something about whatever you are unhappy about, however, when I read this I did kinda feel it was a little bit harsh. I contributed to this thread as I thought the objective of the original thread was to focus more on how do you feel the way you view your own Body Image has changed whilst being in LOS. NOt necessarily what someobody has to do if they are unhappy about their body image...

Regardless, I have enjoyed reading everyone's posts - keep em coming - it is great to share and that people have spoken from the heart which has been respected by all. Kudos to all posters!

I enjoyed your post too Fruitbatt - you must feel great!

** Apologies, I don't know how to insert multi quotes from the same post!** Doh!

Edited November 14, 2007 by Andiamo

[sbk]

And we wonder why we have unrealistic expectations of our own bodies and what beauty is:

[Andiamo]

Great Video you posted SBK -Txs 4 that.

Mmmm makes you think eh....

[kat]

Amazing video, SBK. I love what Dove is doing, and that they call their campaign the "Self Esteem" project. We have become slaves to photoshop and plastic surgeons, worshiping this false or machine-made version of beauty. I'm all for people taking control and making their own decisions, but this has given us unrealistic expectations of how humans are supposed to look, especially women.

I want to send around that video to my friends; thanks for posting it.

[ViolentFemme]

one of the most effective responses btw to the "you're fat" comment is to very simpley say "yes, you too" with a nice smile. confuses the <deleted> out of them & it is poetry in motion to see the penny drop along with their face

I'm going to have to remember that one!

Is it really THAT bad???

I haven't been to Thailand since I was a very chubby 13 year old. Ten years later, I have grown into curves. I have no hips and a very flat bottom thanks to my Japanese mother. But at 5'5" and an American 8/10 I am probably a heffer by Thai standards. I'm really not looking forward to my trip to Thailand for that very reason. *runs to do crunches*