TopDogger Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 normal procedure would just be such a burden. Normal procedure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Clifton Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 normal procedure would just be such a burden. Normal procedure? Normal police procedure. I wonder if they get a "service charge" when a settlement is reached? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiu-Jitsu Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 I'm sorry... I've never taken this viewpoint on any other occasion, but if this is how she's playing this out... it sends the woman's movement back a decade or so... as this was no rape... it was something not illegal in some parts of world and cost: Thai Baht 30,000 = Israeli Shekel 3,714.71 = Euro 649 30,000 baht?? Even the Jet Ski scammers on Pattaya beach go for 50,000 baht or more. Let's hope she was not traumatised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waveydavey Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 I'm not defending her decision to accept the payout but maybe the police told her there wasn't a realistic chance of a conviction - she voluntarily left the club with him, his word against hers, no evidence of rape, no witnesses etc....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Rape case dropped, for 30,000 baht A young Thai man accused of raping an Israeli tourist in Chiang Rai early on Thursday morning surrendered to police yesterday and managed to get the charges against him dropped, after offering to pay his victim 30,000 baht. Ronapee Nakum, 22, turned himself in at Tambon Bandu police station in Chiang Rai and admitted that he had sex with the female tourist who lodged a complaint with police that she had been raped on Thursday, according to police. But Ronapee denied he had raped the Israeli, insisting it was consensual sex after he met the 22-year-old at a downtown disco. Both sides eventually reached agreement while the police mediated. Ronapee agreed to pay the tourist 30,000 baht and she agreed to withdraw the complaint, said police. Continued here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/24Nov2007_news10.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Clifton Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 I think the point was that rape occurs everywhere, not just in thailand, as Mekongcombat made it sound.To say that rape is a fact of life in Thailand seems to deny that it is a fact of life everywhere. And as a woman, I have to add my voice to Bina's here. Women should know better. Nobody deserves to be raped and rapists should be punished but women do know that they are targets and as such should know better than to place themselves in risky situations. Its a sad fact of every woman's life that if she doesn't want to be victimized then she has to be more careful. While rape may occur in western countries, more than likely the rape will be reported and it will be prosecuted. Thailand however is another story, rape is rarely reported much less prosecuted. If what one member posted is correct that a donation of money to a charity made the case go away every Thai and tourist should be outraged! Something is definitely wrong if a rape actually occurred and a payment settled it, I will wait and see if this is truly the case before I further comment. Well said. Unfortunately money changing hands between perpetrator and victim in Thailand is commonplace allowing criminals to go free and not face proper justice or receive a more lenient sentence. I would not be surprised if the Police encouraged the victim to accept a payment in order to facilitate the release of the suspect, and to quickly stop further prosecution. I believe it's also the shortest avenue for them, quickly washing their hands from the case, normal procedure would just be such a burden. Rape case dropped, for 30,000 bahtA young Thai man accused of raping an Israeli tourist in Chiang Rai early on Thursday morning surrendered to police yesterday and managed to get the charges against him dropped, after offering to pay his victim 30,000 baht. Ronapee Nakum, 22, turned himself in at Tambon Bandu police station in Chiang Rai and admitted that he had sex with the female tourist who lodged a complaint with police that she had been raped on Thursday, according to police. But Ronapee denied he had raped the Israeli, insisting it was consensual sex after he met the 22-year-old at a downtown disco. Both sides eventually reached agreement while the police mediated. Ronapee agreed to pay the tourist 30,000 baht and she agreed to withdraw the complaint, said police. Continued here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/24Nov2007_news10.php Like I said, normal police procedure wold be such a burden... Another case solved in record time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Not to sound off base here but this just makes it sound like the same kind of arraignments that are typical in lower Sukhumvit, except there was a broker involved. I guess if the police are involved and they get a cut, they may be classified as pimps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 (edited) Not to sound off base here but this just makes it sound like the same kind of arraignments that are typical in lower Sukhumvit, except there was a broker involved. I guess if the police are involved and they get a cut, they may be classified as pimps. It sounds like you are accusing this young lady of setting this incident up to make money. I am not saying such things do not happen in the world, but without any evidence, that is a disgusting thing to charge her with. Edited November 24, 2007 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Not to sound off base here but this just makes it sound like the same kind of arraignments that are typical in lower Sukhumvit, except there was a broker involved. I guess if the police are involved and they get a cut, they may be classified as pimps. It sounds like you are accusing this young lady of setting this incident up to make money. Shame on you! Not intentional but from a distance without looking at all the points in depth, it sure could seem that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 (edited) This is why women (and men) don't report rapes. Edited November 24, 2007 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 This is why women (and men) don't report rapes. On that point I can agree, there certainly is a lot of trauma involved in rape cases particularly when addressing the accused in court. Financial settlements won in court in cases like this, the money is meant to cover counseling and lost time from work. This somehow seems a little less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 (edited) 30K baht is alot of money to many young Thai men. If he was really innocent, don't you think he would have fought this agreement? This kind of deal is not typical in the west, but obviously it happens here. Actually, for me it is really hard to imagine a young foreign tourist having the cajones to make up this charge with a profit motivation in a strange land, making a false accusation is a serious offense. I think maybe some people might be specifically biased against Israelis. Edited November 24, 2007 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Again I agree, the standards are not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Having seen first hand the treatment of a foreign rape victim in this country I imagine the police put it to her this way: "You can stay and press charges but when it comes to trial you need to be here to go to court. Could take a couple of years. Or, we can make him pay now, this will really hit him where it hurts. " So, you have an upset and traumatized girl being given an ultimatum that is pretty unacceptable. Which one would you choose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 If she had to wait a long time to go to trial as I suspect was the case, what visa would she have stayed on, the rape victim visa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Clifton Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 So, a cash settlement is supervised by a police force, not by a court or judge, the same police force in charge of the investigation? The police being aware of and involved with the case doesn't mean they should automatically become a mediator and have the opportunity to lay down selective "road blocks" to point a case in the direction they desire. The man surrendered, was he already aware of a done deal? What if he really wasn't guilty? Bypass The Justice System 101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bina Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 from ma'ariv (israeli newspaper friday page 10) a half page spread along with three other rape mini articles-- she involved the embassy people after the tour guide of the group she was with persuaded her to file a complaint. (she was in a group of israelis on a jeep 4x4 trip that our kids love doing so much)... security video in the disco revealed his picture together with her when they left together. i just have this feeling, since i know our kids so well, that she was a bit drunk, went with him, thinking about a fun date, at the last minute, regretted it, said no... and as we all know, men dont always like NO at the last minute, he just ignored her. that may be the reason behind her not going further. that of course is my own 'take' on the situation. this coming from the fact that last month we had a 15 yr old boy here charged by an american girl of 16 on rape charges, in the end she retracted her statement (it was consented sex , but she thought she was pregnant and ws afraid of her parents' reactions as she was here on a high school program). we had the social workers here, and community police here to explain to our teens the fine lines and legal ramifications of rape etc. both our girls and our boys really really dont have a clear idea of when NO means NO, and what charging someone with rape really means. also, in our penal system, a rape victim has to go in to the same room with the rapist during line up for identification purposes, and the courts here arent very nice : young girl + disco + drinking + dancing + wearing israeli style nite life clothes -skimpy/provocative- = FREE SEX.... so she could have had the scenario in her head already. especially in a foreign country, away from home. so i suspect that she just wimped out as majority of israeli girls/women do; easier to deal with rape personally rather than go public, court proceedings, her word against his, etc. as many israeli girls would do, she would wait for her father to 'deal' with the situation, beuracracy, banging on tables/demanding things. while our kids are tough customers in certain situations, they really arent the most 'street wise' here. as i've said before, hitchhiking here is common, no problem going out late at night on most streets in most cities, a large percentage of sexual crimes here are political in nature, we are much more afraid of a bomb in the street than meeting a guy for a date then go out somewhere else with him. most kids here arent afraid of strangers. i have a daughter the same age, she has a good head on her shoulders but she really really doesnt have the same kind of 'antenae' or 'street smarts' as i did at the same age. she goes out to discos, meets up with people, and trusts most of them until proven otherwise. she is totally unaware that she is putting herself in certain situations that could end up badly. it just doesnt occur to her. most of our kids still dont really date until they get past 16 + , they run in packs of boys/girls even during the army and after. they are very dependant on the 'pack' mode when travelling, dating etc. they of course give off a different message by their clothing and actions but its a lot of 'israebluff'. our kids dont leave home until after university even. this creates a specific kind of 'naivete' as some poster mentioned here. although this particular rape /suspected rape was in thailand, the scenario is probably very familiar all over: girls/women just have to be more careful unfortunately because just by being women we are more vulnerable. bina just to add a slightly off topic note as a mother to two israeli daughters who will probably go gallivanting around thailand at some point in their lives : my daughter is a soldier/teacher. after her 6 hour teaching day, she is allowed out of her apartment until curfew 23:00. at curfew, their officer makes spot checks to make sure they keep curfew. and they are 6 girls in an apartment in a large city, living on their own. and on friday/saturday they are required to go home. so they are all in a 'strict routine' until age 21/22 with someone watching over them even though dealing with army regs etc makes u toughen up in other aspects. slightly different than those that come over from the states etc who at age 18 dont live at home anymore , gap year types etc. well, my take... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Having seen first hand the treatment of a foreign rape victim in this country I imagine the police put it to her this way: "You can stay and press charges but when it comes to trial you need to be here to go to court. Could take a couple of years. Or, we can make him pay now, this will really hit him where it hurts. " So, you have an upset and traumatized girl being given an ultimatum that is pretty unacceptable. Which one would you choose? I'd certainly give myself more than a couple of hours, if that, to decide.... It was the suddenness of her actions in accepting a small amount of cash that tends to tarnish her stance... and to retain a 1/3 for such things as her hotel bill is a bit tainted. The sudden nature of the man turning himself only to end up being in police custody for apparently only a brief time before sorting out the details lends one to believe it was pretty much all sorted out with her before he arrived at the station. If he was guilty of heinous crime... I would have expected a months-long search for him. Some of the details seems like he could easily be from a well-to-do family where 30K would be what they'd spend on a trip to Bangkok for a soapie party at one of Chuwit's old establishments. What was her experience with the Foundation for Life and Social Development? Surely they had as much an impact on her as the police did since they are reeiving most of the payment. Did they tell her the same impossibilities as the police may have told her? What about the Embassy? What did they tell her? Whether or not she can explain her rationale or intentions adequately, on the surface as most will see it, she's made it more difficult for others who are traumatized. As for what truly happened... no one but the 2 involved will ultimately know.... but I would say that bina's description could very well be accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 (edited) Rape is a difficult subject. No doubt there are many convicted rapists behind bars that are not guilty, but I am quite sure there are many more guilty ones who were never even charged. Given the prevalence of HIV rape is even more of a serious crime than before HIV. Edited November 24, 2007 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 (edited) Is there a link to the Ma'ariv article online, bina? I didn't have any success just browsing it (Babylon is a good translator of Hebrew). How woud you account for the dearth of news in the Israeli press? I couldn't find a single article in any English-language paper from there. I would imagine any number of Western countries where this "overseas rape" would get at least a fair amount ink in the press. Edited November 24, 2007 by sriracha john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bina Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 it was in the printed edition on friday tucked away behind a two page spread involving police vigilantes ; she involved the embassy, they said they were just waiting to 'see what would develop' which is the israelil equivalent of not doing anything unless the person pushes for it (its what docs say to young mothers when they run to the doc on the first day of nasal discharge: wait and see what develops)... emproortud: i specifically used words that involve feeling, speculation... i'm not blaming the victims but in israel a very large percentage of victims of rape not counting incest or based on political actions (jewish arab rape), were girls at discos who put themselves in vulnerable positions to begin with: drunk and going off with an unknown guy/guys... parties with people unknown to them, just situations that leave u vulnerable to being mugged raped etc. which is why i try to teach my girls to think before doing, dont get drunk in unknown situations, dont go off with people u just met, always let someone know where u are , just common sense rules. unfortunately, travellers leave their brains in their backpacks and their instincst are based on their own cultural assumptions.. which dont match those of thai men .. the newspaper article i will try to find ... try www.nrg.co.il (thats the maariv internet site) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 When someone gets robbed walking down the beach carrying 100K baht in cash, we agree he was foolish, but we also agree that the robber is a criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brahmburgers Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Mid-day News from TITV. The rape suspect has been arrested, the rape victim agree to settle the crime without pressing further charge against the suspect. The monetary offer to the victim will donate to charity. I very much wish charges could have been filed with the benefit of a sworn statement from her and perhaps testimony from witnesses, if there were any. To let the pissant off is despicable, and will likely encourage him and his fellow vermin to rape again and again. Young men in Thailand get let off easy, much more than we hear about - as witness to the many fatherless kids (ok, slightly off-topic). I've spoke with dozens of Thai massage ladies, and roughly 80% have kids, and none of those kids have fathers living with their mothers. And zero percent of those deadbeat dads are paying any support at all. In practical terms, I can understand The Israeli woman dropping charges, because Thai law moves at less than a snail's pace, and she's already had her vacation screwed and didn't want to go through the profound hassles of the Thai legal system: doubtless several unifromed men would interogate her, each time dwelling long upon sordid details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bina Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 obviusly the guy is a criminal, so are the guys that rape stupid girls in bathrooms at discos... that wasnt my point... anyway, the ma'ariv article spent two paragraphs about the actual incident and three or more about thailand as a major tourist center for young israeli tourists, blablabla.... and two dinky articles about the fact the a large percentage of israeli women/girls do not report rape (not sure if they even included the beduin/arabic/relgiuos orthodox whom dont report and have their own ways of dealing with victim and perpetrator) since we are a mid. eastern patriarchal society still... so for two weeks or so, israeli mothers will tell their kids not to go to thailand but greece is ok, while their kids go off to yet an other disco and get drunk on one beer (they cant hold their liquor at all, these kids) and get into car accidents.... i have to see what that charity is though?? ...... that was a little wierd.... bina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddhafly Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 there is also the possibility that the boy has a relative in the police dept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johpa Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 there is also the possibility that the boy has a relative in the police dept. It is all a matter of your family's phu yai, maybe within the police department, but that is not necessary. I don't know the specifics of the club in Chiang Rai, but my son, when in-country, frequents the clubs in Chiang Mai that attract both young foreign tourists as well as young Thais. Now he speaks fluent Thai and hangs out with the young Thai folks and from what I can see these clubs attract young Thais from fairly decent families, not necessarily hi-so, but certainly not the real lo-so criminal element. So in the end we have a "he said, she said" dilemma, and likely a "he" who has a family of some influence, or at least who were able to contact a phu yai whose own phu yai was able to communicate with the Israeli embassy. And clearly someone in the Israeli embassy knew Thai culture well enough to convince the young woman to accept the deal. This will clearly make some here unhappy, those who would want to see the investigation proceed as it would in their home countries. But this is Thailand, and since the alleged attacker was probably not some lowly tuk-tuk driver who would have found himself in deep doggy doo doo, this is probably the best Thai solution that saved face for both sides from the perspective of the phu yais involved, who do possess what little facts are available in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaiman Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Police hunt rapist of Israeli visitorwas approached by a Thai man who offered to drive her to her guest house. -- dpa 2007-11-22 If you enter into a situation be sure you can exit it if things get bad: I rule I've always lived by. Too bad she let her guard down. Tough lesson, but life is full of them. Live and learn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaiman Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Rape is a difficult subject. Why is it difficult? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Rape is a difficult subject. Why is it difficult? Because sometimes sex that is called rape is actually consensual and innocent people are charged, and also victims sex lives are put under public scrutiny. You really don't know this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaiman Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Rape is a difficult subject. Why is it difficult? Because sometimes sex that is called rape is actually consensual and innocent people are charged, yes, you are correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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