Teacher's License

[bow]

I am the school's first farang. They want to help me to get a teacher's license and a work permit, but they don't know where to start. They are just sitting there, looking confused. I have tried to persuade them to use the telephone, but they don't want to do that for some reason. (My guess is that is has something to do with "face".) I have tried to phone the Ministry of Education myself, but they keep hanging up on me.

I think I can get them started by giving them the application forms for a teacher's license.

I would save me a lot of legwork if somebody out there knows exactly where I can pick up the forms.

[Ijustwannateach]

Whoa, you are going to have a long row to hoe. It seems odd that your school doesn't want to use the phone- and more like an excuse for dragging things out and not doing anything. Or maybe it's just laziness.

Your school may be acting in good faith, but it doesn't seem likely- probably they just assumed they could pay you and not deal with any paperwork (or in true Thai fashion, didn't even think about it). I don't want to cast a shadow on this new job of yours, but if they're leaving you on your own with this it's not a very good sign about how they're going to take care of you in other matters.

Technically, if you don't have the teacher's license and work permit and non-imm. B already, you're working illegally right now. I'm not sure how advisable it is for YOU to be the one running around asking advice from the various departments (it takes all three- MOE, Labor, and Immigration) to get you legal here. Another sad case of the schools screwing their workers, either through ignorance or apathy. If you're feeling lucky, get yourself down to the MOE and ask them for the paperwork- but personally, I think you'd be better off spending your time searching for another job. Good luck.

"Steven"

[astral]

They probably don't know what to do and feel they will loose face if they admit that.

An all too common situation here, unfortunately.

I suggest you contact a lawyer who will deal with the application for you and advise the school.

The other alternative is for find a job where the emplyer does know how to handle the whole work permit and teachers license.

As already stated, if you are working then you are doing so illegally and risk arrest, deportation and blacklisting.

[kenkannif]

Cut and pasted from Ajarn, but should help (I hope this is okay Phil?):

http://www.ajarn.com/Banter/visaworkpermitfaq.htm

Q Briefly, what is the process of obtaining a teacher's license and getting a work permit?

A Briefly, you give your school whatever documents they ask you for, and they process them. You need to be tolerant and helpful at this point even if you personaly think hey have no need to ask for certain things. If you don't co-operate, the process will get stuck and you'll be the one leaving the country to get a new visa. First they obtain a teacher's license for you, and then they use this to get a work permit. Once you have a work permit, your visa can be extended.

Lengthily, (and the details may vary betwen schools and povinces) the first step is the teacher's license. This requires more or less the following: A personal information document, up to 12 one and a half inch photos, up to 12 two inch photos, a current health certificate (50 baht any hospital - are you alive? yes - you passed), copies of your degree and other certs (originals may be requested along with transcripts) certified Thai translations of your degree and other certs, copies of every page of your passport, school director's license, school principal's license, map of school, teaching schedule of teacher, list of other work permit holders at the school, a new blank teacher's license book (blue), form Sor Chor 10, form Sor Chor 17, form Ror 11. And if you've had a license before, then you can add Ror 12, Sor Chor 19, Sor Chor 18, and your blue license book (not to be confused with the work permit book, plus some provinces don't issue them, in which case you might need to fabricate a police report saying you've lost it)

These are all submitted in quadruplicate to the Min of Ed, and don't forget to sign every single page. After a while (one week to who knows) you will get the license back. You take this, along with most of the same documents as above to the Labour Department, who will issue a receipt of application. You can use the receipt to extend your visa - the implication being that your application won't be turned down at this stage. After about three weeks you pick up your new work permit. When the time comes for renewal, it's a good idea to remind your school about one month before the expiry date, though they really should be on top of things by that stage.

Q How long does this process take, and do I have to do it myself?

A You need a school backing you up in order to get yourself a teacher's license. If the school can't do the paperwork then your own chances of doing it will be slim to non-existent. Many schools do not actually know how to get licenses and work permits for foreign teachers, or do not have a member of staff who has ever done it. In this case things can get very drawn out with the application being postponed indefinitely. If you're the first or only foreigner in a school, good luck.

The actual process need not take a long time. The important thing is to get the teacher's license because that will enable you to make your work permit application which is enough to extend your visa. When I process these, I consider the day the visa expires to be the deadline for getting the license in my hands. It can be done in a week. I aim for a month. If the paperwork is flawed you can just keep on waiting.

Q What are the current requirements from the Thai Ministry of Education?

A This is something of a 64 billion dollar question. Ask five different people and you'll get five different answers. The general consensus (as of March 2004) is that you need BOTH a B.A (in any subject) AND a recognized TEFL certificate. If your B.A is in English (and only English), then you do NOT need to show a TEFL certificate in addition.

I'm one of the few people who seem to push this point, but a ###### of a lot depends on your school's relationship with the MoE. Some schools have poor relationships with the MoE and need to jump through numerous hoops to get their teachers legal. Other schools have good relationships and find the whole process fairly painless (not that I'd ever use the word painless to describe an aspect of Thai officialdom)

There's a lot of argument over what exactly constitutes a 'recognized TEFL certificate' but in my opinion, if the certificate's got the word TEFL on it in some shape, size or form, it should get through.

Contrary to popular belief and rumor, the MoE do NOT check the validity of degrees and TEFL certificates. They simply don't have the manpower. The responsibility of checking all certificates falls on the shoulders of the employer (which is how it should be) You do however need to show original copies to the officer at the MoE.

[Ajarn]

My experience mostly matches this, especially the last paragraph..

Except, in my experience, the teaching license has always been the last thing processed for teachers, always after getting the WP and immigration stamp (or at least the 'come back in 30 days for a decision' stamp). For sure, in my experience at one company, we never had to show any teaching license to the Labour office at any point, for any of the more than 200 teachers we (I) processed that year. Also, when I went through the process of getting a new WP in Songkhla by myself a couple of years earlier, they never asked for my teaching license, but everything else, including a map from my workplace to the WP office.

I was recently reminded the TEFL is now also included more in the requirements, but, as was the same in the past, no documents are verified at all, and anything submitted that looks like it meets requirements, passes, even those well-known KSR 'Degrees'

These are all submitted in quadruplicate to the Min of Ed, and don't forget to sign every single page. After a while (one week to who knows) you will get the license back. You take this, along with most of the same documents as above to the Labour Department, who will issue a receipt of application. You can use the receipt to extend your visa - the implication being that your application won't be turned down at this stage. After about three weeks you pick up your new work permit. When the time comes for renewal, it's a good idea to remind your school about one month before the expiry date, though they really should be on top of things by that stage.

My experience was that, after going to immigration and getting your visa extended (based on your ending date in your school contract), you must take that back to the WP office, since their dates are matched to the immigration stamp....Then you can get the book.

Oh, some schools will claim ownership of the book and demand that they keep it for you. The fact is, by law, you must have the book at your place of work (and they do make inspections!) .If your WP is not where you're working- like in your boss's office across town, or if your 'work' address in your WP is different than your teaching address, it's your ass in a sling, not your boss. Some bosses need to be reminded of this...

[Ajarn]

Whoa, you are going to have a long row to hoe.  It seems odd that your school doesn't want to use the phone- and more like an excuse for dragging things out and not doing anything.  Or maybe it's just laziness.

Your school may be acting in good faith, but it doesn't seem likely- probably they just assumed they could pay you and not deal with any paperwork (or in true Thai fashion, didn't even think about it).  I don't want to cast a shadow on this new job of yours, but if they're leaving you on your own with this it's not a very good sign about how they're going to take care of you in other matters.

Technically, if you don't have the teacher's license and work permit and non-imm. B already, you're working illegally right now.  I'm not sure how advisable it is for YOU to be the one running around asking advice from the various departments (it takes all three- MOE, Labor, and Immigration) to get you legal here.  Another sad case of the schools screwing their workers, either through ignorance or apathy.  If you're feeling lucky, get yourself down to the MOE and ask them for the paperwork- but personally, I think you'd be better off spending your time searching for another job.  Good luck.

"Steven"

My sense is more like, as the Thai, " call who??" And if they don't have the direct number to the right office, ever tried to get a number through '13'?

And no business can be done on the phone, anyway. Here is the Labour office website.. http://www.labour.go.th/ to get started. Ask around for the location of your local Labour Employment office. Often they are quite small, and even located in shopping areas.

And, sure, no one is going to 'volunteer' unless ordered to. Would you, if you didn't have to?

I's suggest you get started on the WP yourself. Of course, they'll require lots of paperwork from your employer, so make sure they are going to cooperate when WP (and immigration) ask for company papers, including tax info if it's a private school. If they won't fully cooperate with you, find another job. Once you start the WP/Immigration process, red flags will surely be raised if you don't fully follow through, which just invites inspection from Labour and Immigration. I had a similar situation happen to me at one point...

As for Thais and paperwork, my experience is that Thais are more into paperwork than anyone else I know except maybe in Indonesia. They may try to avoid it, but it's impossible for them, or anyone else in this country, to not think about it

[kenkannif]

I'd say the teachers licence is always the first part of the procedure (although I might be wrong!) at least IME!

Bear in mind some (all?) government schools don't require you to have a teachers licence to work there. Also depending on what you've been employed as (instructor, consultant) and what/where you're teaching can have a say in if you need a teachers licence?

[Ajarn]

I'd say the teachers licence is always the first part of the procedure (although I might be wrong!) at least IME!

Bear in mind some (all?) government schools don't require you to have a teachers licence to work there. Also depending on what you've been employed as (instructor, consultant) and what/where you're teaching can have a say in if you need a teachers licence?

Yep. TiT. Anything is possible, and there certainly is more than one reality, or one experience. That's why I stressed this was only my experience at this one company- a company whose owner was quite a schmoozer. but still, it points out that things are not always the same for each situation...

You are likely right about government universities not requiring a teaching license, and that could likely be the reason I was never asked for one at the WP office in Songkhla.

[mijan24]

Kenkannif a little off track but can you expand on the "employed as

instructor, consultant

.

This may be of no interest to others so PM me if you like [email protected]

Regards

Mijan24

[mbkudu]

Kenkannif a little off track but can you expand on the "employed as

instructor, consultant

.

This may be of no interest to others so PM me if you like [email protected]

Regards

Mijan24

This is also a question I asked a little while ago, but got no reply. I guess a teaching consultant does not need a degree to get a work permit.

[kenkannif]

I don't really know the exact requirements, but I'd guess you'd have to be employed 'normally' rather than as a teacher (and thus on classrooms and teachers licence). So your company would need the capital or Thai staff that's required to hire farang staff. Sunbelt or Indo Siam probably have a better idea than me! Sorry!

[PeaceBlondie]

I am the school's first farang. They want to help me to get a teacher's license and a work permit, but they don't know where to start...........

I think I can get them started by giving them the application forms for a teacher's license.

I would save me a lot of legwork if somebody out there knows exactly where I can pick up the forms.

If this is a Thai government school, and you're their first foreign teacher in memory, neither they nor you can do much, because nobody knows nothing about nothing; it's the blind leading the blind.

You'll probably never be completely legal there. OTOH, if it's an established govt. school in a remote province, and they have good local connections, nobody cares. All the signficiant officials in the area will know about you before you know about them, and if they put pressure on the school to get kosher, it'll happen.

I'm now at my second school in 16 months in the same province. Nobody knows nothing, and it doesn't matter at all, as long as my visa works.

I can't imagine that you can figure it out yourself if you don't know the officials, don't know how to get to their offices, and don't speak or write Thai.

The national anthem's alternate title is "Mai bpen rai."

[Ijustwannateach]

I'd say the teachers licence is always the first part of the procedure (although I might be wrong!) at least IME!

Bear in mind some (all?) government schools don't require you to have a teachers licence to work there. Also depending on what you've been employed as (instructor, consultant) and what/where you're teaching can have a say in if you need a teachers licence?

Yep. TiT. Anything is possible, and there certainly is more than one reality, or one experience. That's why I stressed this was only my experience at this one company- a company whose owner was quite a schmoozer. but still, it points out that things are not always the same for each situation...

You are likely right about government universities not requiring a teaching license, and that could likely be the reason I was never asked for one at the WP office in Songkhla.

In my experience, along with the general cluelessness that PB just mentioned about the exact details of the procedures involved, it's true (as Ajarn mentioned in another message) that the Thais know there is SOME kind of paperwork involved- and it is *also* true that quite often they will KNOW that they are not adhering to official procedure and that someone (probably you) will suffer if the question is raised. Sadly, it is my experience that they'll be happy to continue taking advantage of this vulnerability of their farang employees as long as the farang employees let them- and as with most jobs in Thailand, there is no real recourse except to quit.

Not that that ever seems to induce change in management style.

I still say that unless the OP is happy being an illegal employee, it's time for him to search for a new job. Any other path will just cause his employees (and through them, him) frustration and wasted effort.

"Steven"