Private Dancer

[RueFang]

I've just finished reading Private Dancer by Stephen Leather about an English dude who falls in "love" with a bar girl who constantly lies to him to get his money. I've lived in Thailand for a few years but as I'm a woman and live nowhere near heavily touristic areas I'm not exposed to this seedy side of Thailand. That's not to say that I'm not very aware that Thailand is a top destination for sex-tourism and on my visits to Bangkok, Phuket, etc I've obviously seen bargirls/prostitutes walking around with old men and I've read enough on various forums from hoards of bitter men that have been fleeced of everything they have by these women, but it seems (from the book and observations) that the men are always throwing money away on them voluntarily. Handing over 5000 baht just as a tip for example...that's one months wages for many many people in Thailand.

The book itself was ok (although nearly every page would say "she's just so cute" which got boring very quickly) and it got me wondering about how many farang women have actually visited places like Nana Plaza or any of the strip clubs in Thailand. Seriously. I've visited a couple in my own country out of a sense of inquisitiveness and for a bit of a birthday joke but I probably wouldn't go again as personally I find it a little sad. I've never thought of taking a look in Thailand, have any of you ladies ever been to one or thought of it just to see what's like?

It also made me wonder how so many farang men want to be involved long term with women who so obviously look like prostitutes. I don't know if I'm crossing a line talking about this on this forum but I really want to discuss things from the book. Anyone read it? Thoughts on how accurately written it is (from experience)?

Please keep it nice though without flaming

[LucyLui]

I've read the book and it is very entertaining and I do know this book was written based on a true story. I know of guys, mainly 'long-term' tourists who have had similar experiences and have lost or as you say given away alot of money.

I have been in go-go bars but I wouldn't go again, I get bored! I have been to the boys go-go shows aswell and they get boring after a while aswell.

[Prakanong]

I've read the book and it is very entertaining and I do know this book was written based on a true story. I know of guys, mainly 'long-term' tourists who have had similar experiences and have lost or as you say given away alot of money.

I have been in go-go bars but I wouldn't go again, I get bored! I have been to the boys go-go shows aswell and they get boring after a while aswell.

Yes the book was loosly based on the authors own experiences and was published as an article in esquire magazine which the author tries to keep of the internet now (so it has been said).

The girl in question worked in Voodoo Bar in Nana Plaza and the story was well known around the expat bar's when it was happening. This was pre 97 time.

The book was written and was freely available on the authors website as the publisher of his other books thought it not in line with his usual works - he then found another publisher for this book years later.

The girl on the book cover is from Angel witch (was) and I was told the picture taken by Stickman.

A lot of guys do pay over a lot of money although I do hear less of it now in Bangkok than before - maybe all the fools now go to Pattaya. I am sure the amounts were a pittance to Stephen and he might even turn a profit given book sales

I do bumpt into him every so often and have a few drinks - something awful always seems to happen though after we have left each other. Last 2 times it involved my ex being groped and us spending time in Lumpini Police Station having someone have a bad holiday and the next time i got run over!

[midasthailand]

A good book, well worth the read for both male and female. I always recommend this book to first timers in Thailand and especially to those that become lulled into a false sense of superiority by the attentions of a pretty Thai bargirl. Even if it wasn't based on a true story, I can assure you that it happens more often than is reported, a lot of victims (for want of a better word) are too ashamed to admit that they have been duped out of large sums of money by a girl from Isaan with a primary school education. Unfortunately there will always be those among us men who cannot help but think with their little brain instead of the one in their head, consequently Mr. Leather's book will always be relevant.

As to the "strip clubs", very few clubs actually have strippers per se, they go on stage with whatever costume is the theme for their bar and wear that costume throughout their stay on the stage. I too find them boring after a time, but us guys have to meet somewhere.

[kash]

... live nowhere near heavily touristic areas I'm not exposed to this seedy side of Thailand. That's not to say that I'm not very aware that Thailand is a top destination for sex-tourism and on my visits to Bangkok, Phuket, etc I've obviously seen bargirls/prostitutes

The sex business is all over the country and has been so since who knows when, the things you can see are just the top of an iceberg (wonderful cliché), the real bad stuff happens behind the curtains in all cities, all over the country.

I've never thought of taking a look in Thailand, have any of you ladies ever been to one or thought of it just to see what's like?

take a look at your local mp's, karaoke and bar beers and you'd be surprised, disgusted and horrified how common this is amongst the common thai, its part of the culture, and I can't see any difference between a farang having a LT girlfriend than thai's having mia noi's, it's kind of adapting to the lifeset, how wrong it now can be found morally. but it's there.

[richardb]

....but it seems (from the book and observations) that the men are always throwing money away on them voluntarily. Handing over 5000 baht just as a tip for example...

Me Cheap Charlie

Richard

[Samuian]

"etc I've obviously seen bar girls/prostitutes walking around with old men ..."

Sorry, but it's a Cliche as well...- come to Samui - I'll show you around - plenty a' young guys (i know only about one female) - getting "stripped" by smart sex workers... after all it's the name of the game - everyone with only a grain of brains...should know better, at least find out rather fast....unless, they're brain dead!

[donna]

funny how most posters on this thread are men!

i posted a lengthy post but on second thoughts decided that i should withdraw it. ive never been inside one of the strip clubs as i feel it would sicken me.

there, thats it. i have other opinions on the topic but they are probably best left unsaid.

[girlx]

i have been several times to nana plaza, soi cowboy, patpong, and pattaya... initially it was because my boyfriend was a sex tourist (unbeknownst to me at the time) and dragged me along with him thinking i could get involved too (?!?!?!?)... later on it was because my other farang male friends would occasionally meet up there and i would tag along. i like to watch, it's pretty intruiging to see the game in play. my first trip to thailand was to pattaya and i had a great time chatting with the bar girls at the open beer bars... girls who had 5 different cellphones- one for each boyfriend who was sending her money from their home in farangland (yes i think 'private dancer' was pretty credible). they all have similar sob stories, but the personalities range from hardcore "whores" to innocent farm girls who really sort of just found themselves in a bar one day working... the men range from sad, fat losers to your average metrosexual business exec... there are freelance ladyboys, straight boys working in gay bars, lesbians who pick up bar girls... i studied psychology and sociology in school and am always interested in peoples' behaviors and motivation so places like this are a candy store to me. one thing i can say for sure is that sure a lot of people on both sides end up getting hurt, but they sure have fun on the way down.

[little_muppet]

I have read that book. as i am thai, i dont understand if farang men can see the different btw bar girls and normal girls? i have to accepted that most of things in book that the writer wrote are true, i have heard so many time also i used to help a bar girl read and wrote e-mail to her man (i got forced to do that hhahaha).

i would like to see wats inside the gogo bar, but as i am thai they never let me in!!!

LMP

[kash]

i would like to see wats inside the gogo bar, but as i am thai they never let me in!!!

LMP

lot's of my thai friends has been to go-go's, and they are definitely not into the scene.

(worst case, say you'd like to have a look as you consider an application ;-))

[sbk]

I am afraid I generally don't read those kinds of books. Just not interested to be honest, enough of that drama here on TV

Neither do I go to lady bars, boy bars, go go bars, sex shows or any of those things. Viewing the voluntary degradation of women and men isn't really my thing either.

Also, before we get too in-depth, lets remember the forum rules, put into place because these kinds of conversations usually degrade into discussions of where and how to find girls:

By using this service you agree;

1) You will not use thaivisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, referencing prostitution (including bargirls and barboys), referencing suicide, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.

[britmaveric]

If you like bored ladies shuffling their feet back and forth on a pole.. then perhaps this is your sort of place. There are places that do strip shows, but not typical version of what you'd expect in the west, more like a choreographed show like smth you'd see in Las Vegas. Then you have the places that do sex shows - ping pong balls and other assorted items. Must admit not really sexy, but rather odd.

Sum it up - Gogo(s) for the most part are boring, and can't handle more than hr in one of those places.

[legag]

It also made me wonder how so many farang men want to be involved long term with women who so obviously look like prostitutes. Please keep it nice though without flaming

Too many. Knowing and not knowing they men have made their choice and got me wondered if it's easy to find someone like that I should have become one too. Probably have 2-3 kids, open up a bar on the beach somewhere or have a big filed planting some fruits, even a farm, away from stage life drinking everynight by now. Not a bad choice huh.

little_muppet: i would like to see wats inside the gogo bar, but as i am thai they never let me in!!!

I don't see any thais that I know or been with us ever had a problem getting in go-go bar Come with me and I'll take ya!! But tell you what, you haven't missed much. It's nothing like strip clubs over on western side. Not one bit close.

[RueFang]

Reading the book I did feel like it was coming from a real experience and just kept thinking how can people be so blind. I guess perhaps a lot of men get the big ego boost from such beautiful/exotic women fawning over them and consider it to be real because in western culture if a woman acts that way it's suggests she cares or loves you. And considering how many times he said "she's just so cute" it's pretty obvious the relationship was purely physical since they couldn't carry on a real conversation beyond "I love you too much".

Have to admit I only bought the book cos I only had a choice of that or several books about drug smugglers in bangkok prisons...rather not give them my money. Still, it did give more insight into a world I know little about and since I live here that can't be a bad thing.

[Prakanong]

I have read that book. as i am thai, i dont understand if farang men can see the different btw bar girls and normal girls? i have to accepted that most of things in book that the writer wrote are true, i have heard so many time also i used to help a bar girl read and wrote e-mail to her man (i got forced to do that hhahaha).

i would like to see wats inside the gogo bar, but as i am thai they never let me in!!!

LMP

I can assure you most farang men can see the difference between a bg and a normal girl - those that can not are either pretty ignorant of Thailand or incredibly stupid.

Of course many bg's can pass them self off as normal girls when out and about and many normal girls do have their own sugar daddy's etc

PS: I am just using your terms also ie normal girl - I would not use those terms myself.

[mikethevigoman]

Reading the book I did feel like it was coming from a real experience and just kept thinking how can people be so blind. I guess perhaps a lot of men get the big ego boost from such beautiful/exotic women fawning over them and consider it to be real because in western culture if a woman acts that way it's suggests she cares or loves you. And considering how many times he said "she's just so cute" it's pretty obvious the relationship was purely physical since they couldn't carry on a real conversation beyond "I love you too much".

Have to admit I only bought the book cos I only had a choice of that or several books about drug smugglers in bangkok prisons...rather not give them my money. Still, it did give more insight into a world I know little about and since I live here that can't be a bad thing.

I know how you feel. i was in a go-go on NYE and there was a thai guy with a not very nice farang woman ( well i wouldnt have ) ! any way when she went off to the toilet i said " your girlfriend ? " he replied, " no ,a customer ,what can i do ? ", like you i couldnt do it for any money if i didnt like them ,ugh

[little_muppet]

i would like to see wats inside the gogo bar, but as i am thai they never let me in!!!

LMP

lot's of my thai friends has been to go-go's, and they are definitely not into the scene.

(worst case, say you'd like to have a look as you consider an application ;-))

sorry Kash, please watch ur mouth before u willing to look down on me.

i was really wanted to see inside when i was a minor still. till now i never have chance to go there coz im not into night life drunk night .

maybe ur relatives need that application???

sorry everyone i cant let it go!!!

LMP

[mouse]

Just to give you the other side of things. I once was married to a European woman that had graduated from a prestigious University and worked as a Bank manager. After a long courtship I presented her with an Engagement ring, which her Mother (the dear) immediately had appraised. I later found that her mother also had me checked out thoroughly through contacts at my bank etc.

Since then I am of the opinion that the difference between marrying the women that you mention from Thailand and those of the west is none. Prostitution is in my opinion unlicensed marriage, albeit temporarily, which some people seem to prefer to make more permanent in nature. I quite frankly appreciate the honesty. For my wife told me that if I took care of her and quit smoking she would provide me with a football team of children. We kept to our agreement and now have a large and happy family. She has gained stature within her little world and I found true happiness. And a funny thing happened while enroute to this goal over the last ten years, we fell in love.

[Furbie]

i would like to see wats inside the gogo bar, but as i am thai they never let me in!!!

LMP

lot's of my thai friends has been to go-go's, and they are definitely not into the scene.

(worst case, say you'd like to have a look as you consider an application ;-))

sorry Kash, please watch ur mouth before u willing to look down on me.

i was really wanted to see inside when i was a minor still. till now i never have chance to go there coz im not into night life drunk night .

maybe ur relatives need that application???

sorry everyone i cant let it go!!!

LMP

Not true, they will let in a Thai woman if she goes in with a customer. Three times I have brought a “normal” Thai girl into a gogo bar as they had always wanted to see inside one. As long as you are with a Western, male customer, they should let you in.

[Mobi]

After hearing about this book for so long, with all and sundry saying it is a “must’ for all single men coming to Thailand, I finally decided to give it a read, to see what all the fuss was about.

It is not particularly well written – but maybe my standards are set rather high, preferring the classics to most (but not all) modern literature.

However, the inferior writing ultimately that doesn’t detract from the message the author is trying to get across.

The story is rather dated, set as it is more than 10 years ago, and Bangkok, Thailand and the world has moved on a bit since then. A good example of this is the dependence on landline telephones, and the significant part they play in the story, which would not be the case today with the mass ownership of mobile phones.

Also, in my opinion there are a lot of ‘technical’ and cultural inaccuracies in the story, and I can only imagine that the author used his imagination, rather than carry out research to fill in a lot of blanks, when describing the background situations of many of the Thai characters. A good example is the account of the girl’s father switching from one daughter’s bedroom to another to commit incest with his young daughters. This was a poor family – and even if it wasn’t, there is no way that an Issan family would provide separate bedrooms for the daughters. Also, while not unheard of, it is very unusual for more than one girl in a family to end up as a prostitute. Typically, it is one – often the prettiest one – who ‘sacrifices’ herself for the others.

I also believe this is an extreme, and therefore not particularly typical example, of what happens in these relationships. For every farang who has gone down this road, and come out a loser, there is a different story – no two are exactly the same, and readers should be wary in assuming that all girls are as bad as the one in the story, and all relationships will end the in the total devastation of the man involved. Some actually have happy endings.

Having said all this, I will concede that the underlying message in the story is a good one, and probably does serve as a timely warning to those wishing to embark upon such relationships.

[zaza]

Since then I am of the opinion that the difference between marrying the women that you mention from Thailand and those of the west is none. Prostitution is in my opinion unlicensed marriage, albeit temporarily, which some people seem to prefer to make more permanent in nature. I quite frankly appreciate the honesty. For my wife told me that if I took care of her and quit smoking she would provide me with a football team of children. We kept to our agreement and now have a large and happy family. She has gained stature within her little world and I found true happiness. And a funny thing happened while enroute to this goal over the last ten years, we fell in love.

I really wishes you both the best of luck and happiness always.I thought these feelings and thoughts do not exist anymore.

did you really quit smoking for her sake or you just made promises? why didn't not you say as other men usually say:"that's me ; I would not change,take it or leave it"??

[Fun2Fun]

There are also countless Thai books available which actually tells stories from the girls point of view....and boy do they have many "scare" stories on how "falangs" use, abuse and abandon thai girls.

So never forget that its a two way street...

And yes i do agree the goo-goo bars in Thailand is a drag (basically just a hook-up place) and can not be compared to the professional variety of the western ones entertainment vise.

[kash]

lot's of my thai friends has been to go-go's, and they are definitely not into the scene.

(worst case, say you'd like to have a look as you consider an application ;-))

sorry Kash, please watch ur mouth before u willing to look down on me.

Please look out for the ;-), if you still don't know irony, try a dictionary.

[little_muppet]

i dont need dictionary, sorry but wat u said i dont take it funny.

[Jai Dee]

OK folks, let's settle down please before we get any other misunderstandings.

[mikethevigoman]

After hearing about this book for so long, with all and sundry saying it is a "must' for all single men coming to Thailand, I finally decided to give it a read, to see what all the fuss was about.

It is not particularly well written – but maybe my standards are set rather high, preferring the classics to most (but not all) modern literature.

However, the inferior writing ultimately that doesn't detract from the message the author is trying to get across.

The story is rather dated, set as it is more than 10 years ago, and Bangkok, Thailand and the world has moved on a bit since then. A good example of this is the dependence on landline telephones, and the significant part they play in the story, which would not be the case today with the mass ownership of mobile phones.

Also, in my opinion there are a lot of 'technical' and cultural inaccuracies in the story, and I can only imagine that the author used his imagination, rather than carry out research to fill in a lot of blanks, when describing the background situations of many of the Thai characters. A good example is the account of the girl's father switching from one daughter's bedroom to another to commit incest with his young daughters. This was a poor family – and even if it wasn't, there is no way that an Issan family would provide separate bedrooms for the daughters. Also, while not unheard of, it is very unusual for more than one girl in a family to end up as a prostitute. Typically, it is one – often the prettiest one – who 'sacrifices' herself for the others.

I also believe this is an extreme, and therefore not particularly typical example, of what happens in these relationships. For every farang who has gone down this road, and come out a loser, there is a different story – no two are exactly the same, and readers should be wary in assuming that all girls are as bad as the one in the story, and all relationships will end the in the total devastation of the man involved. Some actually have happy endings.

Having said all this, I will concede that the underlying message in the story is a good one, and probably does serve as a timely warning to those wishing to embark upon such relationships.

There is a great handbook to thailands red light areas called "Money number 1 ", if only all male visitors read and heeded the warnings ,fortunes and hearts would be saved, if only !

[PhilHarries]

Well I thought this thread was going to be about farang women visiting boys agogo bars etc etc and about do any of them lose it similar to the men? Wrong!

Anyhow off topic.

Well I know of one Irish lass back around '95 that used to hang around Pattaya soi 13 with her boyfriend we used to call number nine (his stage number apparently). He was quite a hunk and she did lose it big time, last I heard of her she was on massive overstay, went broke, got bailed out by family, went broke again and that was the last anybody saw or heard of her. So it does happen but very rarely, odd thing was she was a good looking girl and should have had no problem getting male company back home, maybe she had a bad experience who knows?

Back on topic.

When I worked for a large multi-national in Thailand we had a lot of guys with expat wives assigned to the office. After work on Fridays most of us used to congregate for an hour or so in a Beach Road gogo bar. Very often the expat wives would accompany their hubbys into the bar and seemed to enjoy themselves chatting mostly to the girls. When new guys were sent out it usually fell to some of the older hands to show them around town and exlain the ropes etc. Often some of the expat wives used to accompany the group on their tour of the seedy "show" bars and were quite amused by it all. But, by and large, they were down to earth unpretentious types, difficult to be anything else with hubby in the construction business, and they never seemed to feign the self righteous aloof attitude often voiced. Maybe they were/are different when in more elevated social circles.

As for Thai women in gogo bars I can only talk of that Beach Road establishment mentioned above. That place had a strict rule of no Thai women in the place before 7pm, other than the workers obviously.

But I do love the string of replys in this thread claiming "I never go to gogo bars they are boring". Yeah right we'll believe you, thousands wouldn't.

There is a great handbook to thailands red light areas called "Money number 1 ", if only all male visitors read and heeded the warnings ,fortunes and hearts would be saved, if only !

That assumes that:-

a. All male visitors can read.

b. All male visitors will take it on board and there'll be no "but my girl is different" syndromes.

[richardb]

I recently had cause to visit Pattaya for a few days with my Thai Girlfriend. We went out to see some of my friends at some beerbars which was nervous about but ultimately ok with, chatting with some of the girls. We then moved on to Secrets, not quite a Go Go more a Coyote. She hated it and could not wait to get out. We left asap and she was like " how could you bring me to such a place".

Falang women in Go Go's I have seen a few times. Generally pissed as newts before trying to get on stage and flash their knickers thinking they are the life and soul of the party. This kind of misses the point of a go go in that the dancers are not employed primarily for their personality. It seems that after a few beers a competitive streak appears in some falang women in a go go. Not a pleasent sight.

Perhaps things are different in the boy go gos?

Richard

[fletchsmile]

I thought it was an OK book, nothing special. It looked based on a few stories mixed together, combined with a few stereotypes. One thing that made it slightly more interesting was choosing a young guy, rather than the old guy stereotype as the protagonist.

One key factor in why it happens is naivety, plus a lack of having experienced anything similar before visiting Thailand. Why can't people see thru it all? If I think back to when I first came to work here, it would never have entered my mind that all these Thai bar girl antics exist. I started with zero first hand knowledge of this industry before coming to Asia, and had never knowingly even talked to anyone invovled in it before Thailand. Before coming here I would have laughed Private Dancer off as unbelievable and pure fiction. Fast forward to having spent a few years in Thailand, and the book seems pretty obvious, easy to see thru and predictable. I think that's mainly a reflection of the country, life here and a side of life you learn about, that you probably wouldn't do so in many other places.

BTW Anyone thinking it is limited to western guys and Thai females is kidding themselves. You can pick any combination of males/females western/thai here in Thailand, and there'll be similar stories. Obviously not the majority of relationships here, but enough to spot the themes.

A better book I thought was "Only 13". It's written from a Thai girl's perspective. It gets hijacked in the middle by western PC rhetoric on the industry, which sort of interrups the flow of the story for a while, before it resumes again. But otherwise it's a much more interesting book, with a much less mainstream/less stereotypical perspective of this type of subject than Private Dancer. I found it much more thought provoking.

Edited January 4, 2008 by fletchsmile