Drive Defensively

[brahmburgers]

Beware of 4-way stops. In my town of C.Rai, the stoplights turn to flashing lights late at night. The theory is, drivers are supposed to slow and stop, allow one or two other drivers who were nearer the intersection to go, and then proceed themselves. Of course, in Thailand, courtesy is considered wimpy and the 4-way stop is about as understood and complied-with as the zebra crossing - which means: effectively never.

Last night I came to a 4-way stop, and like a dumb farang, I stopped, waited for several cars in cross traffic to proceed, and then ventured forth. An approaching driver, who should have seen me as clear as an day-glo elephant, didn't slow, so I gunned my motorbike - but still, got the bike clipped on its rear end - knocking out the tail light. Did the driver stop? Is water dry? No, in typical Thai fashion, he didn't even slow. I chased him on my bike as he sped away, and twenty blocks I forced him to stop. We talked heatedly - didn't agree on anything, and he sped away again.

Three times, in my ten years of driving in Thailand, I've been rear-ended when I stopped at zebra crossings or red ights. Even so, I still stop to allow people to cross the road - probably a silly (and dangerous) habit here in Thailand.

[Flatouthruthefog]

Beware of 4-way stops. In my town of C.Rai, the stoplights turn to flashing lights late at night. The theory is, drivers are supposed to slow and stop, allow one or two other drivers who were nearer the intersection to go, and then proceed themselves. Of course, in Thailand, courtesy is considered wimpy and the 4-way stop is about as understood and complied-with as the zebra crossing - which means: effectively never.

Last night I came to a 4-way stop, and like a dumb farang, I stopped, waited for several cars in cross traffic to proceed, and then ventured forth. An approaching driver, who should have seen me as clear as an day-glo elephant, didn't slow, so I gunned my motorbike - but still, got the bike clipped on its rear end - knocking out the tail light. Did the driver stop? Is water dry? No, in typical Thai fashion, he didn't even slow. I chased him on my bike as he sped away, and twenty blocks I forced him to stop. We talked heatedly - didn't agree on anything, and he sped away again.

Three times, in my ten years of driving in Thailand, I've been rear-ended when I stopped at zebra crossings or red ights. Even so, I still stop to allow people to cross the road - probably a silly (and dangerous) habit here in Thailand.

I admire you and would not want to suggest changes in your considerate technique. As visitors here from nations more used to motor traffic (the car, historically, is very new to Thailand, really!) I think it behoves us (not 'behooves', please!) to drive by example.

But pragmatically, when driving at night especially, I WOULD recommend one of those little high pressure capsicum spray cans for your glovebox.

Fully legal in Thailand and could save you from extended road rage.

OK, I know, it could start a lot too. All depends if your throttle and clutch movements are as fast and accurate as your trigger finger and door lock mechanism!

[torrenova]

We have some of those in Pattaya as well and there is always some form of chaos. Luckily, the one I encounter most is one I lived near for over 3 years so I feel more comfortable about it and how other drivers, who are not drunk or on yabba, feel when they approach it. The other thing is that I drive a truck so bikes and small things like cars usually give way automatically.

[Nibor1945]

Agree entirely that defensive driving is a must out here, although of course there is not much you can do when stationary, twice the rear mounted spare wheel on my aged Sport rider has saved me from sustaining damage when rear ended at traffic lights.

On the subject of traffic lights, when they are shifted to flashing amber then "in theory" the rule of "give way to traffic from the right applies". This is the same rule that allows vehicles emerging from side roads to have priority over vehicles approaching from the left at unmarked junctions, which often takes non-native drivers by suprise!

So as the Scout master said to his troop, "Be Prepared".

Regards Nibor.

[toptuan]

No matter how "defensively" you drive, there are some situations in wild Thailand you just cannot avert. I've been rear-ended three times in five years in Thailand, one resulting in injury to myself.

Each time, I was in the right--such as waiting to turn right from a busy highway (not a double line), stopped at a traffic light or stop sign, or simply getting hit in moving traffic (the violator was moving faster than everyone else--I wasn't going abnormally slow).

Now I watch my rear view mirror more than ahead of me, which isn't a very good option either.

[Murf]

When in Rome do as the Romans do.

Forget what you know or think is right from a western perception it will only cause you greif.

A no U turn sign doesnt neccessarily mean you can't U turn... and a red light doesn't neccessarily mean you have to stop...

[Cuban]

When in Rome do as the Romans do.

Forget what you know or think is right from a western perception it will only cause you greif.

With all due respect to the OP - you seem to have been here long enough to learn that the rule of the road is that the larger vehicle has right of way. Sometimes regardless of any traffic sign or common sense.

Consider the biker that shoots out of a side turning without looking or coming to a stop even if the road sign indicates Stop & Give Way, the Thai logic is that they will magically merge with the traffic flow or they will get a driver hoot their horn at them to let them know there is traffic coming.

[Gearhead13]

I agree with the comments above. I am aggressive, but defensive too. The agressive part is for being able to get somewhere on the same day, and the defensive part is actually being careful my aggressiveness doesn't threaten others. In other words, I take the opportunity when its safe, and there are a lot... Decisive but not reckless.

I almost never trust my mirrors even though they are pretty good with blind spots. I consult them first but then I always turn my head around or roll my eyes into the sides of my head to check out for things like.....motorcycles....that seem to defy the laws of physics by rising up from the ground, shape-shifting, or blasting into immediate existence from some other dimension. Have you guys seen the movie, "Jumper"?

[Thaiboxer]

Here, defensive driving is a MUST. On top of this, plan to look everywhere around you and then look again before venturing out. In addition to defensive driving, you must adopt aggressive driving if you're to get anywhere. This is especially true here in BKK. If you don't butt your way in sometimes, you'll be stuck at that turning point forever. The "Might is right" rule is alive and well, although motorcyclists often seem to think that cars should give way to them coming out quickly without looking and without wearing a helmet. These motorcyclists also think that their bikes are designed to accomodate a whole family with the smallest kid on the gas tank. Who needs a four door truck?

[dave_boo]

As a side note, do other Western countries (non-American) have protected right (or let if driving on the same side as Americans) turn arrows? I.E., when the green turn arrow is lit, the traffic can make the turn with the oncoming traffic having a red light. Because in Nakhon Sawan, they have those green arrows, but they don't mean a d@mn thing because the oncoming traffic also has their solid green through lights.

But driving defensively is a necessity here. I usually keep above 80 km/h, but when I'm humming along there on my CBR 150, it's too easy to open it up and grab another 15 km in a couple of seconds--handy for getting out of jams and keeping distance between me and those god-forsaken Fortuners. I also keep my head turning around, even though my missus says that using the mirrors is a good enough. So with the exception of once having a mini-van stop quite suddenly in front of me in Samut Prakarn (I was able to mostly get around him--bike missed, helmet slapped the rear corner), and having another motorcycle weave between some trucks and hit my front tire (no problems there since it was only tires rubbing but could have been worts), I've been fairly lucky(?) with driving in LOS.

[Maigo6]

I chased him on my bike as he sped away, and twenty blocks I forced him to stop. We talked heatedly - didn't agree on anything, and he sped away again.

I knew a big aggressive American guy that did that in Pattaya, the Thai guy pulled a gun on him and wisely the American saw sense and sped away.

Be careful out there chaps.

[Thaiboxer]

In some areas of BKK, you can turn left on red just as Americans can turn right on red. Other places, you must stop and wait for the green arrows. As for the mirrors, don't rely solely on those....especially when backing up. Many people here use the mirrors only as if they're driving a vehicle with no rear view (like a box truck for example). I was taught to always turn my upper body/head, rest my hand on the back of the passenger seat and go from there. Mirrors aren't always accurate and it's easy to have a fender bender in the carpark if you don't use your eyes.

[manjara]

I've been driving here for 4 years now and never had an accident (*touches wood*). I've done about 80,000km in that time, mostly in BKK and driving up to Lampang.

I think you have to drive fairly aggressively, but always expect the unexpected. There will be cars coming up your inside, no-one will stop where they should. The guy on your left IS turning right, and he will veer in front of you, you just have to make sure he doesn't get his nose ahead of yours. That sticker in the window in Thai does say 'I brake for no F****** reason at all!'

If there is one rule (other than might is right), then it seems to be that if you are ahead, then it is the responsibility of the person behind not to hit you.

Accelerate into space, don't wait for it to be offered (it won't be). I drove in Portugal for a year, and that was a milder version of Thailand. My friends from the UK thought I was a crazy driver after that period, god knows what they think now!

P.S. No, I don't have a Fortuner, it's a Ford Ranger

[Maigo6]

My friends from the UK thought I was a crazy driver after that period, god knows what they think now!

P.S. No, I don't have a Fortuner, it's a Ford Ranger

[Thaiboxer]

Another poster told me that if he drove in the UK like he drives here, they'd lock him up! Lots of things that they do here would get you shouted at in the States.

Might is right; whenever I think of this rule, it makes me want to purchase a secondhand commercial two truck I've seen for sale near where we live. That thing would turn those taxis into scrap metal in no time.

[Edorf]

I have driven in Thailand for slightly more than 3 years now and never had an accident! I live in Phuket so most of the driving has been here, but I have been on the road many times all over the place between Phuket and Bangkok.

Contrary to what most posters say, I do not believe in driving defensively at all... I tried driving defensively in the beginning but that got me in more dangerous situations than I have ever been in before while driving (and I have driven "all over the world"). I fast took on driving more agressively but as controlled as possible, and try to match the "local behavour". I feel that if you drive defensively then you are likely to cause dangerous situations as you react different that what those around you expect you to do thereby causing them to be confused causing them to get in to a situation they are not used to (sorry for that terrible sentence).

As a footnote, has any of you guys living in Phuket seen the new police "traffic awareness" sign on top of the mountain leading down to Patong? It has a big photo with a smashed up car and a serious looking officer standing in front of it, and a text that reads: "Drive fast, Be safe" (no spelling mistake on my behalf!!!)

[elkangorito]

I agree with the comments above. I am aggressive, but defensive too. The agressive part is for being able to get somewhere on the same day, and the defensive part is actually being careful my aggressiveness doesn't threaten others. In other words, I take the opportunity when its safe, and there are a lot... Decisive but not reckless.

I almost never trust my mirrors even though they are pretty good with blind spots. I consult them first but then I always turn my head around or roll my eyes into the sides of my head to check out for things like.....motorcycles....that seem to defy the laws of physics by rising up from the ground, shape-shifting, or blasting into immediate existence from some other dimension. Have you guys seen the movie, "Jumper"?

As a former motorcyclist in Australia, I concur with the above ideology. It doesn't matter where you are in the world...if you are a motorcyclist, many motorists will not only NOT see, some will even intimidate you. NEVER rely upon mirrors. ALWAYS turn your head.

Here in Thailand, it's a slightly different game. One must realise that "common sense" does not exist here. One must "think for others" when it comes to road safety (or the lack thereof).

One of my old bosses, with whom I am friendly, "had" 3 sons. 2 of his sones lived in Thailand. Now, only 1 son exists in Thailand . Why? This particular son was obeying the "common sense" rules whilst walking across the road at traffic lights in Bangkok (he was obeying the signals) & a total dumbarse killed him. Consequently, my former boss constantly tells me, "Only fools & suicidal maniacs drive or ride in Thailand." I believe him, since I have experinced 'first hand' Thai driving behaviour. (overtaking on double yellow lines, on a hill or on a bend with only "Buddha" in control.)

I was with a Thai friend once, who proceeded to zoom through a major set of traffic lights on Sukumvit Rd (Pattaya). On approach to this intersection, he simply switched on the hazard lights & did not slow down at all. I commented to him that not slowing at such intersectiuons could be dangerous. His comment was, "Do you think that I am stupid?"

How about Thai bus drivers? I'm certain that they consider themselves "king of the road". Their overinflated egos make them lethal weapons (or "F1" racing car drivers) at the best of times. How do you defend yourself against them?

Defensive driving in Thailand? The only people in Thailand who defensively drive are NOT Thais. How do you escape transportation in Thailand? Unfortunately, you don't...unless you can invent a "Star Trek" transporter. Only then will you be able to avoid idiocy.

[torrenova]

A right of passage here is a few scrapes and scratches which would cause a stop and claim in the normal world but if you try and avoid those, you'll be driving into far worse trouble.

[manjara]

I have driven in Thailand for slightly more than 3 years now and never had an accident! I live in Phuket so most of the driving has been here, but I have been on the road many times all over the place between Phuket and Bangkok.

Contrary to what most posters say, I do not believe in driving defensively at all... I tried driving defensively in the beginning but that got me in more dangerous situations than I have ever been in before while driving (and I have driven "all over the world"). I fast took on driving more agressively but as controlled as possible, and try to match the "local behavour". I feel that if you drive defensively then you are likely to cause dangerous situations as you react different that what those around you expect you to do thereby causing them to be confused causing them to get in to a situation they are not used to (sorry for that terrible sentence).

As a footnote, has any of you guys living in Phuket seen the new police "traffic awareness" sign on top of the mountain leading down to Patong? It has a big photo with a smashed up car and a serious looking officer standing in front of it, and a text that reads: "Drive fast, Be safe" (no spelling mistake on my behalf!!!)

Absolutely, driving defensively is more likely to cause accidents over here, as when you are waiting patiently at a junction for a gap in the traffic, all the aggressive drivers will be trying to get past you, right and left. You become like a rock in a stream, just waiting for something to slam into you.

BTW, you're supposed to have either a Thai, or International drivers license to drive here. Most Thais just buy theirs for a couple of hundred baht (if they have one at all). I have one of the new UK ones, which most Thai police accept as 'International' after a bit of 'persuasion'. Speeding tickets have cost me around 200 baht (and no points!). Once I had no change and gave the policeman 500. He was very 'di jai' but said it was too much, I think he would have given ME change if I hadn't insisted...

[indothai]

Driving conditions here are absolutely horrendous attributed to 2 main things:

1) Ignorance: (people think it's a 'right' to drive, when it's really a privilege). Have an accident that involves a lost of life and you'll quickly understand the privilege.

2) Impoliteness: Always in a rush to go somewhere, Always want to be the first one, will not yield. I always thought that politeness was one of the attributes that defined Thailand ?!?

I've been in BKK for about 1 year now and I've seen more accidents here than I have when I was in the states for 15 years (metro cities).

P.S. I drive defensively, with a baseball bat.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi

I have been driving here only five years yet, car and motorbike, and i can verify that if you are driving "defensively" you are more liklely to cause an accident AND not getting anywhere.

I am from Germany where a driving license costs the equivalent of 75.000 Baht easily and takes about three months to get, with proper education in theory/traffic rules as well as driving in different conditions (city, overland, Autobahn/high speed, night, and various different methods of parking i.e. road side, diagonal, backwards etc). Once i started driving HERE i learned within an hour that i must quickly forget all that i learned in Germany and adapt to the local style or i'll be dead soon.

For example if you want to change lanes and bother to use the indicators to indicate your wish, all that happens is that everyone coming from behind in the lane you want to change into will speed up to make sure you'll NOT get in front of them. Solution? Don't indicate and just pull over into that lane, whatever comes from behind will likely honk the horn but WILL slow down - they do NOT want to wait for their insurance guy to show up in case they hit you!

Same with zebra crossings - in Germany, if you do NOT stop at one the pedestrian can and will call the police and report your license plate, and you'll lose your license - instantly. Here? Keep moving. If you stop to let the poor soul cross the road, you'll endanger yourself (as you may get rear-ended) AND THEM because they can only get to the middle of the road - don't even imagine the lane beside you will let them cross, unless there's by chance another farang driving the vehicle beside you.

Thai people are, for the most part, lovely people. But as soon as they are in the driver's seat of any form of vehicle, they transform instantly to selfish, rude creatures that know nothing but their will to reach their destination as quickly as possible. The world around them instantly ceases to exist the moment their engine starts and anyone in that world is their victim.

Be like them, or be killed.

Best regards......

Thanh

[Cuban]

Once I had no change and gave the policeman 500. He was very 'di jai' but said it was too much, I think he would have given ME change if I hadn't insisted...

A few years ago I was stopped for speeding up country, to my surprise the traffic cop spoke very good English so my first line of defense was gone, we chatted about my car and the speed (about 130 or so) for a while then about possible fines etc. All very polite. When we had agreed on a suitable "fine" I double checked the amount with him (200), then handed over a 1,000 Baht note, holding on to it for a second or two so that he understood that I expected change, he also took a few moments too long to "find" change in his car - like he hadn't got a pile of 100 Baht notes from all the other drivers he had had cause to speak to that afternoon.

I prefer the expression Assertive Driving, using the phrase "Look to go - but prepared to stop", my OH considers I drive badly at times, but I point out hazards on and along the road (dogs, children) she misses completely, I am aware of other road users. I feel that many Thai drivers have no perception that there is anyone else on the road at times. With the little average awareness there is reduced futher by young drivers (the school rush hour) or alcohol (home from bar rush hour).

Once you are aware of other road users what you do is down to manners, this is a different subject. I might suggest that if you are seen as a farang in a particular car you might recieve different treatment than a Thai driver in the same car/bike.

[Brigante7]

Great quote from a Bangkok taxi driver who was I guess in his 60's "Bangkok driving is also know as freestyle driving, everybody does there own thing to get where they're going and you have to do your own thing to get where you're going to" Wise words from an experienced man or typical Bangkok attitude or both?

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

4 years of driving cars and riding motorcycles in Thailand, 17 in total. not enough to be the most knowleadgable driver in the world, but...

For what it is worth, my advice: have you wits about you. It ain't like the west, i.e. you are not on a 'conveyor belt' with everyone driving very similar speeds, keeping good distance between you and the car in front etc...

Here, you have to be aware of and anticipate everything and everyone, all the time, never let your guard down for a minute. Personally, I love driving here. I enjoy the relative freedom from the cameras etc. and also the fact that driving along any road demands my fullest attention...

[spasticated]

<br />

When in Rome do as the Romans do.<br /><br />Forget what you know or think is right from a western perception it will only cause you greif.

<br /><br />With all due respect to the OP - you seem to have been here long enough to learn that the rule of the road is that the larger vehicle has right of way. Sometimes regardless of any traffic sign or common sense. <br /><br />Consider the biker that shoots out of a side turning without looking or coming to a stop even if the road sign indicates Stop & Give Way, the Thai logic is that they will magically merge with the traffic flow or they will get a driver hoot their horn at them to let them know there is traffic coming.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

bit of a contradiction here i think, bike is the smallest?

[Cuban]

>...bit of a contradiction here i think, bike is the smallest?

I think the smallest road user is generally the pedestrian and they know to beware of all powered traffic. My point was that motorbikes will jump out into a stream of traffic assuming that if they are about to get hit the will be warned by the motorist's horn. You can often see larger vehicles push through traffic signals as they are changing from green to red on the basis that they are too big to bother stopping even thro' with air brakes they can stop on a dime. I drive a truck and will use it's size to encouage other road users to allow me across a busy junction, for if I were to wait politely I would still be there now.

In turn I have recently had a larger truck try to encourage me to yield at a junction where the road signs (freshly painted) gave me right of way over him on a side junction merging on to the major road, so I am not doing anything that the native drivers do not already do.

As others have said above, road awareness is important when driving in this country, just like any other.