Briton Killed

[intumult]

R.I.P.

And another one 'jumps / falls' ?

Now, I am beginning to wonder at the number of these incidents also.

[Richard W]

The jumping because of no access is the one I find a bit tenuous - anybody can find a lace to jump in the UK with free access but its not a method chosen that much is it?

See suicide bridge. Clifton Suspension Bridge near Bristol sprang to mind, but barriers were installed to make suicide much more difficult. Our local hospital in England allegedly now keeps the doors to the balconies locked because they had too many jumpers, but I can only find evidence of one jumper.

[Prakanong]

One type of suicide that seems to have completely and suddenly stopped here in Thailand is the plastic bag over the head for foreigners.very common for a while a few years ago. Something I had never heard of in Canada or the U.S.

That leaves me thinking that most of those were murders and that whoever was committing those murders have changed their technique since.

R.I.P. Paul

I remember a spate of those as well - a lot in 99 when I was living and working in Thailand.

There was a pal of a guy I worked with who was found like that and it was said he was mixed up in some jewellery fiddle with some cops and thay did it - the guy I knew was very very nervous and went upcountry for a holiday but did not say much to us.

The second I remember well was the American found in the Dynasty like that. All down to suicide until the Pakistani that killed the prostitutes and left them in black plastic bags in Suk soi 3 was caught and he confessed to murdering the American.

[Prakanong]

The jumping because of no access is the one I find a bit tenuous - anybody can find a lace to jump in the UK with free access but its not a method chosen that much is it?

See suicide bridge. Clifton Suspension Bridge near Bristol sprang to mind, but barriers were installed to make suicide much more difficult. Our local hospital in England allegedly now keeps the doors to the balconies locked because they had too many jumpers, but I can only find evidence of one jumper.

My old hall of rsidence at Sheffield Uni, Sorby Hall, was known as the place student jumpers went to and I was just discussing this the other Friday with someone in Singapore.

There was a hall at Warwick Uni as well famous for suicides but I do not think they jumped.

As for the jumpers in Thailand it may be that in their distraught state they copy the methods others use - this seems to be common where a lot of suicides happen such as the spate in South Wales now or the few that have happened in Japan.

It can only be cold company for his family though - being so far away when a loved one dies is not a pleasant experience.

[howtoescape]

As for the jumpers in Thailand it may be that in their distraught state they copy the methods others use - this seems to be common where a lot of suicides happen such as the spate in South Wales now or the few that have happened in Japan.

The spate in South Wales is less then the national average of suicides for the relevant age group per capita, compares to any average town throughout the UK, its just its reported more and made good press. "For all forms of press"

I am getting my fact of so called experts on many different news channels.

Edited March 7, 2008 by howtoescape

[Prakanong]

As for the jumpers in Thailand it may be that in their distraught state they copy the methods others use - this seems to be common where a lot of suicides happen such as the spate in South Wales now or the few that have happened in Japan.

The spate in South Wales is less then the national average of suicides for the relevant age group per capita, compares to any average town throughout the UK, its just its reported more and made good press. "For all forms of press"

I am getting my fact of so called experts on many different news channels.

Thanks for the update - the only place I have seen anything about the S Wales case is on Sky News so my info is limited.

[bendix]

Thailand attracts some people who are running away from problems in their lives, bad debt, bad marriage etc, running away to Thailand may seem like a good idea at the time, then the money runs out, the few plastic friends that you thought you had made beat a hasty retreat when you are running short of cash, the Visa needs renewing, family at home don't wanna know you anymore.

Precisely. People talk about expat suicides, but let's call a spade a spade. I'm not seeing many suicides by expat Citibank bankers, or expat diplomats. It seems it's limited only to the types that Maigo describes and it's tempting to draw some conclusions that those very types are running away from issues at home which, inevitably, catch up with them here (and some!).

Nevertheless, RIP. Not a nice way to go.

[Prakanong]

Thailand attracts some people who are running away from problems in their lives, bad debt, bad marriage etc, running away to Thailand may seem like a good idea at the time, then the money runs out, the few plastic friends that you thought you had made beat a hasty retreat when you are running short of cash, the Visa needs renewing, family at home don't wanna know you anymore.

Precisely. People talk about expat suicides, but let's call a spade a spade. I'm not seeing many suicides by expat Citibank bankers, or expat diplomats. It seems it's limited only to the types that Maigo describes and it's tempting to draw some conclusions that those very types are running away from issues at home which, inevitably, catch up with them here (and some!).

Nevertheless, RIP. Not a nice way to go.

It is an interesting proposition and one from observation I could agree with. I have seen very sick guy's refuse to return home for treatment even after having tickets bought for them.

Then there are the others you see that just seem to be wose off each time you see them and full of woe how their business or job is going down the pan and it the Thai's/farang partner/insert other fault.

However, Thailand is not the only country these guy's run to is it?

What are the rates of suicide like in other countries where they head to?

I am still of the view though that even if we take just the British suicide there are just too many jumpers comared to suicides in the UK in similar age brackets ie 5% or less and that includes moving object deaths too and I would wager (maybe 500 THB only as I am not sure ) there are more train deaths than jumpers in the UK.

[bendix]

I am still of the view though that even if we take just the British suicide there are just too many jumpers comared to suicides in the UK in similar age brackets ie 5% or less and that includes moving object deaths too and I would wager (maybe 500 THB only as I am not sure ) there are more train deaths than jumpers in the UK.

But havent you answered your own question?

The reason there are more suicides here in that age bracket compared to the UK is EXACTLY because of the types of people in those age brackets who are attracted here.

Their counterparts in the UK are probably family men, working in half decent careers and are surrounded by family members or other positive influences. They don't feel alienated by their circumstances.

Here, people arrive feeling like a King and then it's downhill quickly. They have very few positive role models. Their money slips away. They lose contacts at home. Their career prospects dwindle. Their girl leaves them for a richer guy. It's a pretty desperate situation.

[Prakanong]

I am still of the view though that even if we take just the British suicide there are just too many jumpers comared to suicides in the UK in similar age brackets ie 5% or less and that includes moving object deaths too and I would wager (maybe 500 THB only as I am not sure ) there are more train deaths than jumpers in the UK.

But havent you answered your own question?

The reason there are more suicides here in that age bracket compared to the UK is EXACTLY because of the types of people in those age brackets who are attracted here.

Their counterparts in the UK are probably family men, working in half decent careers and are surrounded by family members or other positive influences. They don't feel alienated by their circumstances.

Here, people arrive feeling like a King and then it's downhill quickly. They have very few positive role models. Their money slips away. They lose contacts at home. Their career prospects dwindle. Their girl leaves them for a richer guy. It's a pretty desperate situation.

I agree with your view of the demographic ie guy's with problems and no social network to support them.

My question is about the method of suicide.

In the UK it is 5% at most and usually les that kill themselves by "Jumping - either from heights or in front of moving objects like trains or vehicles". I would posit that out of thi small % the jumpers from hieghts are smaller than jumping in front of trains but lets accept 50/50 so 2.5% at most

The majority do it by poisoning of some kind which includes overdose or by strangulation.

My question is what are the rates in Thailand for the jumping method rather than the most common one in the UK - why such the change if it is significant statistically?

[Maigo6]

The majority do it by poisoning of some kind which includes overdose or by strangulation.

Many people that overdose are overdosing on prescription medication that they are on for depression, anxiety etc.

Also an overdose is sometimes a cry for help, help that is available in countries like UK and unavailable to a Farang with no money here.

A jumper isn't crying out for help, he's going for it with no turning back, he's had enough.

An overdose you can change your mind after the dose, a plastic bag on the head you can rip off before passing out, but jumping from a great height is sure to work.

[Prakanong]

The majority do it by poisoning of some kind which includes overdose or by strangulation.

Many people that overdose are overdosing on prescription medication that they are on for depression, anxiety etc.

Also an overdose is sometimes a cry for help, help that is available in countries like UK and unavailable to a Farang with no money here.

A jumper isn't crying out for help, he's going for it with no turning back, he's had enough.

An overdose you can change your mind after the dose, a plastic bag on the head you can rip off before passing out, but jumping from a great height is sure to work.

The figures I am quoting are for successful suicide attempts in the UK for about 10 years up to 2001

Even if a lot of the successful ones were mistakes ie lets say 50% for arguments sake there is still a big discrepancy i would argue in the methods used in Thailand compared to Britain for the same demographic - or does anyone have any other explanation?

[bendix]

I think there are a few reasons for it.

I would hazard a guess that - unlike back home - most expat suicides in Thailand are relatively unplanned. They come by in a moment of despair, and it's acted upon instantly. Few of these types of people would have a conveniently full medicine cabinet in their apartment. Let's face it, most such medicine cabinets are stocked by wives, rather than single guys.

Other techniques back home would would include the exhaust pipe one, or the hanging in a garage. Again, how many of these types have either cars or a garage?

Similarly, virtually all these guys HERE would live in highrise condos either in Bkk or Pattaya. It's the cheapest and most usual form of accomodation, yet relatively rare in the UK.

All those factors suggest why it's much more common here than back home.

[AA1]

Having just logged in to Thai Visa I was saddened to see the thread "Briton Killed" but was then was distressed to read that the majority of writers seem to automatically assume that Paul Hollen committed suicide and seem to relish dicussing this subject rather than Paul's tragic death. As 'Howtoescape' says:- "The story in the Nation is a bit sparse on facts. Few of the comments on here 'are' going to be viewed favourably by his family.........".

There was no evidence of a fight so it was assumed suicide - what an assumption!!

As 'Playboy' says "maybe he jumped, maybe it was an accident .......".

As 'Maizefarmer' mentioned - the police have not said how or why he died (other than he fell).

What I feel is much more relevant at this time (other than expressing our deep regret for the family) is the problem with many balconies etc. in Thailand for Westerners. As Kiakaha, Dee123 & Mosha say - the height of the rails/walls in many cases are okay for Thais but too low for many westerners as many of us are many inches on average higher.

The majority of us sometimes have the odd pint or 2 so no problem but with or without a drink if you slip or lean back, I sometime think how easy it would be to go over as my centre of gravity is often ABOVE the height of the 'safety' rail/wall. This I feel IS a major problem in Thailand.

Please give Paul the benefit of the doubt about it being an acccident until we learn otherwise

and

don't just use his death as an excuse to show off what we know about different ways of commiting suicide in Thailand, England or Wales without having any regard to the feelings of his family or friends.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Maybe when he opened the bottles the two "bears" inside pushed him????

Only for the observant.

[Prakanong]

I think there are a few reasons for it.

I would hazard a guess that - unlike back home - most expat suicides in Thailand are relatively unplanned. They come by in a moment of despair, and it's acted upon instantly. Few of these types of people would have a conveniently full medicine cabinet in their apartment. Let's face it, most such medicine cabinets are stocked by wives, rather than single guys.

Other techniques back home would would include the exhaust pipe one, or the hanging in a garage. Again, how many of these types have either cars or a garage?

Similarly, virtually all these guys HERE would live in highrise condos either in Bkk or Pattaya. It's the cheapest and most usual form of accomodation, yet relatively rare in the UK.

All those factors suggest why it's much more common here than back home.

Points well made but

All studies show that people usually build up to a suicide and for people close to them certain symptoms can show this - Are saying suicides in Thailand are deiiferent? Of course its in a moment of despair but a single moment wityh no build up?

medicine cabinets stocked by wives?

Most overdoses are probably with prescribed drugs in the UK as a guess or paracetemol OTC - given how easy it is to get in Thailand would this not be an easier option - it must take the depths of despair i know to jump but some bloody guts as well

Carbon monoxide poisoning - yes good point with less access in Thailand - I guess the Honda Wave does not cut it.

Hanging - is the garage the only place in the UK where they do this? People can hang themselves from low points off their feet and not just above head height.

I have to admit we do not know the disparity (if any) but in my opinion I think there must be other factors.

Maybe they are not all suicides and are accidents due to alcohol an the low balcony's in Thailand as alluded to above. I am not tall a tall and have always felt uncomfortable at freinds places with the eight of the balcony - below my centre of gravity so well below most men.

PS: I just had a 10 minute conversation with two epidemiologist's about this after I wrote the above. They say other behavioural factors need taking into account together with the socialology of suicide - as non-professionals their view is the numbers are strange if there is such a disparity and asked for toxiology results to which I said "In Thailand - only if the family pushed"

[Prakanong]

Having just logged in to Thai Visa I was saddened to see the thread "Briton Killed" but was then was distressed to read that the majority of writers seem to automatically assume that Paul Hollen committed suicide and seem to relish dicussing this subject rather than Paul's tragic death. As 'Howtoescape' says:- "The story in the Nation is a bit sparse on facts. Few of the comments on here 'are' going to be viewed favourably by his family.........".

There was no evidence of a fight so it was assumed suicide - what an assumption!!

As 'Playboy' says "maybe he jumped, maybe it was an accident .......".

As 'Maizefarmer' mentioned - the police have not said how or why he died (other than he fell).

What I feel is much more relevant at this time (other than expressing our deep regret for the family) is the problem with many balconies etc. in Thailand for Westerners. As Kiakaha, Dee123 & Mosha say - the height of the rails/walls in many cases are okay for Thais but too low for many westerners as many of us are many inches on average higher.

The majority of us sometimes have the odd pint or 2 so no problem but with or without a drink if you slip or lean back, I sometime think how easy it would be to go over as my centre of gravity is often ABOVE the height of the 'safety' rail/wall. This I feel IS a major problem in Thailand.

Please give Paul the benefit of the doubt about it being an acccident until we learn otherwise

and

don't just use his death as an excuse to show off what we know about different ways of commiting suicide in Thailand, England or Wales without having any regard to the feelings of his family or friends.

I really do not mean to offend anyone about discussing the methods of suicide - its exactly with regard to your second point why I did bring it up - the immediate assumption of suicide when I think it may have been something else such as an unfortunate accident due to the balcony etc.

It should have had a thread of its own the discussion of the epidemiology of suicide in Thailand!

It must be traumatic for the family to learn of a loved ones death so far from home and more so if it was put down to suicide rather than accident etc as the human mind lead to imagining they had failed some way even though no-one could possibly be to blame.

Whatever it was RIP to the guy and condolencs to his family

[AA1]

Having just logged in to Thai Visa I was saddened to see the thread "Briton Killed" but was then was distressed to read that the majority of writers seem to automatically assume that Paul Hollen committed suicide and seem to relish dicussing this subject rather than Paul's tragic death. As 'Howtoescape' says:- "The story in the Nation is a bit sparse on facts. Few of the comments on here 'are' going to be viewed favourably by his family.........".

There was no evidence of a fight so it was assumed suicide - what an assumption!!

As 'Playboy' says "maybe he jumped, maybe it was an accident .......".

As 'Maizefarmer' mentioned - the police have not said how or why he died (other than he fell).

What I feel is much more relevant at this time (other than expressing our deep regret for the family) is the problem with many balconies etc. in Thailand for Westerners. As Kiakaha, Dee123 & Mosha say - the height of the rails/walls in many cases are okay for Thais but too low for many westerners as many of us are many inches on average higher.

The majority of us sometimes have the odd pint or 2 so no problem but with or without a drink if you slip or lean back, I sometime think how easy it would be to go over as my centre of gravity is often ABOVE the height of the 'safety' rail/wall. This I feel IS a major problem in Thailand.

Please give Paul the benefit of the doubt about it being an acccident until we learn otherwise

and

don't just use his death as an excuse to show off what we know about different ways of commiting suicide in Thailand, England or Wales without having any regard to the feelings of his family or friends.

I really do not mean to offend anyone about discussing the methods of suicide - its exactly with regard to your second point why I did bring it up - the immediate assumption of suicide when I think it may have been something else such as an unfortunate accident due to the balcony etc.

It should have had a thread of its own the discussion of the epidemiology of suicide in Thailand!

It must be traumatic for the family to learn of a loved ones death so far from home and more so if it was put down to suicide rather than accident etc as the human mind lead to imagining they had failed some way even though no-one could possibly be to blame.

Whatever it was RIP to the guy and condolencs to his family

[AA1]

Sorry Quotes sent but without my message!!!

Prakanong.

Thank very much for your reply and what you say much appreciated.

Just sad that the 2 subjects got mixed into 1 thread rather than being 2 seperate ones but your reply will have I am sure will help many members like myself who felt the sub thread rather disrespectful to Paul's memory at this stage even most, if not all, of us didn't know him.

[bendix]

With respect AA1 (and i dont want to make light of a sensitive subject), but if Thai balconies arent high enough for the average foreigner, surely they shouldnt be daft enough to lean against them?

I mean, come on. People arent stupid when it comes to self-preservation.

Your objection reminds me of Weho's classic "taking luggage trolleys on escalators" thread.

[AA1]

With respect AA1 (and i dont want to make light of a sensitive subject), but if Thai balconies arent high enough for the average foreigner, surely they shouldnt be daft enough to lean against them?

I mean, come on. People arent stupid when it comes to self-preservation.

Your objection reminds me of Weho's classic "taking luggage trolleys on escalators" thread.

Part agreed yet again.

What I was pointing out is that accidents can and DO happen.

In this case I am saying that it could have been a stumble & low balcony which was the cause and NOT suicide as many seemed to automatically assume.

You write "people arent stupid when it comes to self-preservation" by which you would seem to say that if someone gets hit by a car when crossing the road that they are not trying to get to the other side, they are trying to commit suicide!! I must say that in Bangkok, if you do attempt to cross a road direct rather than a foot bridge or subway it is attemted suicide so mybe you are right after all!!

[kiakaha]

With respect AA1 (and i dont want to make light of a sensitive subject), but if Thai balconies arent high enough for the average foreigner, surely they shouldnt be daft enough to lean against them?

Accidents can happen, simple...a slip, a visual misjudgement(not wearing glasses in my case, bad lighting etc...), inebriation affecting co-ordination etc.....

[Tony Clifton]

One type of suicide that seems to have completely and suddenly stopped here in Thailand is the plastic bag over the head for foreigners.very common for a while a few years ago. Something I had never heard of in Canada or the U.S.

That leaves me thinking that most of those were murders and that whoever was committing those murders have changed their technique since.

R.I.P. Paul

I remember a spate of those as well - a lot in 99 when I was living and working in Thailand.

There was a pal of a guy I worked with who was found like that and it was said he was mixed up in some jewellery fiddle with some cops and thay did it - the guy I knew was very very nervous and went upcountry for a holiday but did not say much to us.

The second I remember well was the American found in the Dynasty like that. All down to suicide until the Pakistani that killed the prostitutes and left them in black plastic bags in Suk soi 3 was caught and he confessed to murdering the American.

That lasted until about two years ago. Since then, not a single case reported.

They must have changed their murder method.

[Maizefarmer]

.....the building regulations for height of balconey rail......are they same as UK/Europe?....only when I stare up at these condo monstrocity's I get shivers down my spine,.....when loking at the balcony's...

....never mind that, its the construction of the whole balcony you have to be concerned about - I've been on a few that have scary low railing heights to them, but the steel railing where it buts into the wall on the side had rusted loose and the whole railing could easily have being pushed out.

Yer, construction standards in Thailand do leave to bit to be desired on occassion - the country has had its fair bit of tall buildings falling down! They certainly are not what they are in Europe or the USA.

[mamanoodle]

Most UK jumpers choose bridges(google it). Not many blocks of flats, as they are known in the UK have baconies, and the OP report is he FELL, given the low balcony walls here, plus a few beers an accident could be a possibility. Whatever the cause it is a sad waste of life, and condolences to his family and friends RIP.

[TheDon]

Why do so many farang kill themselves? I think farangs minds must be less stable then anyone elses.

[kiakaha]

Why do so many farang kill themselves? I think farangs minds must be less stable then anyone elses.

please point me to a URL or factual body of evidence which shows without a doubt that said individual "killed" himself. Else, turn left at the sign that says "dumb and dumber this way please"

[PadThaiGuy]

Suicide?

Pushed?

Fell?

Who knows?

One thing I do know is I've seen many condos/apartments with balcony railings that are TOO LOW.

Who designs and approves these places?

If I was to guess, I'd say he was drinking and fell.