What's The Deal With E85

[nikster]

I keep reading about E85 Gasohol - can somebody clear up for me what this is and why it's supposed to be good?

All I can see is that it's ethanol-based (made from... food?), it's not cheaper, requires huge investments in engines, and in all likelihood is going to benefit certain politicians who have invested in ethanol production. Further, it seems mad to replace oil with food. And no one else in the world is doing this.

Is that too cynical? Is there actual merit to it?

[pigtail]

They started with an E10, now moving to E20.

It will be a long time before they get to E85, if at all.

[Hog Head]

They started with an E10, now moving to E20.

It will be a long time before they get to E85, if at all.

Au Contraire, as production already exceeds consumption and more ethanol plants are slated to come on line. The owners of those plants will see to it that their intrests are looked after, no matter what the folly.

Volvo has an E-85 car in the market now, and with the planned reduction in excise tax, more will come. It remains to be seen if the subsidised cost of E-85 is sufficent to compensate for the reduced km per litre.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

E-85 will never sully my tank.

[PeaceBlondie]

But just this week, didn't some Thai politician claim that E85 would reach the market in 6 months? Why yes, right here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=191141 the Deputy PM/Finance Minister said two days ago, it would be here in 3 to 6 months, and you can always believe them.

I have heard claims on TVisa for years now, that ethanol fuel has less power than benzene of a similar rating octane rating, and that you get high fuel consumption with it. But when I stated that yesterday, I was told we are all the gullible victims of a vast petrol conspiracy-brainwashing.

I bought a 2008 Honda CBR150R two weeks ago, and it is about the first CBR that can run on E10. Methinks we have a long way to go.

[Hog Head]

But just this week, didn't some Thai politician claim that E85 would reach the market in 6 months?

But the ONLY car in the Thai market that can use it is a new Volvo, and you can imagine how many of there are on Thai roads.

A chicken and egg question, with no thought as to the egg side of the equation. Excise taxes on E-85 vehicles should have lowered a long time ago to create a market.

As to the claim that Thai made cars will be E-85 compatible in 18 months, I am falling off my chair laughing.

But then again, I wonder who owns all those ethanol plants with excess production, and how they are going to sell it?

[Gary A]

Tell Brazil that ethanol is a stupid idea. The thing I hope I live to see is the day we can tell OPEC to eat their oil.

The ethanol industry creates jobs and the money stays in the country. That looks like a win win situation to me. When farmers can get a decent price for their crops, they will grow more crops. At this point it is simply NOT profitable to grow food crops on marginal land and unfortunately there is a LOT of marginal land especially in Issan.

[ruddick]

As far as I am aware when using 100% ethanol your fuel consumption is in the order of twice that of 100% petrol. So I would guess E85 will give a consumption of just over half of that of normal petrol.

So unless the E85 is going to sell at somewhere near half the price of normal petrol there would be no saving so why would anyone buy it.

I don't think the guys who own the ethanol plants are going to like that. I guess we have some interesting times ahead in LOS........

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi

Isn't it a great way to encourage people to buy more and more cars? Now that everyone is buying E20-capable new cars, they will all need the even newer E85-capable cars once available.......

But true is, in Brazil they run on that stuff since the 70's and don't have any problem with it. I think they don't even have normal petrol there, but i could be wrong with that.

Best regards.....

Thanh

[tartempion]

The thing I hope I live to see is the day we can tell OPEC to eat their oil.

Because you think it's OPEC that makes the price of oil go up and up and up???

[tartempion]

Funny on the subject of E20, just found this at http://www.mda.state.mn.us/renewable/ethanol/default.htm:

I am considering buying a Nissan Tiida running on E20, 35K price reduction!

E-20 Test Results

Results of drivability and compatibility tests by the State of Minnesota have found that motor vehicles operating on a 20-percent blend of ethanol fuel will perform as well as those running on 10-percent ethanol or gasoline. The tests also found that using the higher E-20 ethanol blends did not cause significant problems for a wide range of materials, including metals, plastics, rubbers and fuel pumps used in vehicle fuel systems.

The study used nationally recognized standards and protocols to ensure research quality. It was conducted at Minnesota State University Mankato and the University of Minnesota, with cooperation from the State of Minnesota, including the Minnesota Departments of Agriculture and the Pollution Control agency, and the Renewable Fuels Association. The study included input from fuel refiners, automakers and small-engine manufactures, and funding support from the Minnesota Corn Growers Association and the Council of Great Lakes Governors.

* Executive Summary (PDF: 48 KB / 6 pages)

* Drivability Study (PDF: 520 KB / 43 pages)

* Effects of E20 on Automotive Fuel Pumps and Sending Units (PDF: 505 KB / 13 pages)

* Effects of E20 on Plastics used in Automotive Fuel System Components (PDF: 240 KB / 22 pages)

* Effects of E20 on Metals used in Automotive Fuel System Components (PDF: 167 KB / 16 pages)

* Effects of E20 on Elastomers used in Automotive Fuel System Components (PDF: 625 KB / 35 pages)

[Gary A]

The thing I hope I live to see is the day we can tell OPEC to eat their oil.

Because you think it's OPEC that makes the price of oil go up and up and up???

Certainly they control the price of oil. If they want the price to go up, they simply pump less and the market will quickly bid up what oil is being pumped. If they want to price to go down they raise the pumping quotas. To keep the price up, they keep the supply on the ragged edge.

[ozzydom]

Unless ethanol is heavily subsidised (as in the US ) it would have to be more expensive than petrol,if what I have been reading is correct, ethanol production is a net energy loser. to the tune of approx 30%.

In this paper they state that it takes about 100,000 BTU of fossil fuel to produce 78,000 BTU of ethanol.

quote>

www.slate.com/id/2122961/

[samran]

The thing I hope I live to see is the day we can tell OPEC to eat their oil.

Because you think it's OPEC that makes the price of oil go up and up and up???

Certainly they control the price of oil. If they want the price to go up, they simply pump less and the market will quickly bid up what oil is being pumped. If they want to price to go down they raise the pumping quotas. To keep the price up, they keep the supply on the ragged edge.

traditionally yes, but new capacity isn't coming on line fast enough to keep up demand. In otherwords, demand is greater than supply. You only have to look at publically avaialble information for it IEA to verfiy this.

Main growth drivers are Asia (china) and the middle east.

New oil fields also can't keep up with the rate of decline from existing oil fields.

Now if I'm not mistaken, if you are to beleive in peak oil, you also beleive that we are all going to go back and live in caves etc, and 75% of us will die off unable to survive. I'm not quite so pessimistic. People who work upstream that I know, doing the exploring beleive that there will be less and less oil to go around. Given this, money is pouring into alternatives. Brazil has led the way, but it will be a mixture of other things as well (ie electric, hydrogen power etc etc etc) as well as solar and win power playing a greater role in generation for homes and industry.

[Gary A]

Unless ethanol is heavily subsidised (as in the US ) it would have to be more expensive than petrol,if what I have been reading is correct, ethanol production is a net energy loser. to the tune of approx 30%.

In this paper they state that it takes about 100,000 BTU of fossil fuel to produce 78,000 BTU of ethanol.

quote>

www.slate.com/id/2122961/

It all depends on who you believe. Why does the US STILL pay corporate farms to grow NOTHING? I cannot believe Brazil loses money on their ethanol production. They quit importing oil. Purdue University in Indiana spent 20 years developing an enzyme to convert cellulose to sugar. Where do you suppose the first production plant is at? It's NOT in the US. Canada is producing ethanol from wheat straw. Who built the first large bio diesel plant in the US? It was the French who built the plant and decided bio diesel from soybeans would be profitable. Is it profitable? I don't know but I do know that Brazil is NOT losing money exporting ethanol.

A proved fact is that there is more shale oil and oil sands in the US and Canada than all the oil that has ever been used in the history of the world. There are two problems with that oil. It costs $45 a barrel to extract it with the current technology and it doesn't make very good gasoline. It DOES make good diesel fuel. Peak oil? NO WAY!

I'm not a conspiracy fan but those people could get a lot of mileage from why the US has held back alternative energy sources for so many years.

[ozzydom]

Brazil achieved oil independence in 2006.

Brazils ethanol is produced cheaply because of low wages,the use of sugarcane as source and by using sugar cane waste (bagasse )to produce the heat and electricity used in the production process.

[Gary A]

Brazil achieved oil independence in 2006.

Brazils ethanol is produced cheaply because of low wages,the use of sugarcane as source and by using sugar cane waste (bagasse )to produce the heat and electricity used in the production process.

One of the main reasons corn is used in the US is because of the ability to store corn in large quantities for long periods of time. Sugar cane and sugar beets have to be processed in relatively short periods of time. Sugar beets are very seasonal in the US with sugar cane a little less so. Sugar beets went out of style when the bottom dropped out of sugar prices. I think you are going to see a big comeback of sugar beets. There is now very little manual labor raising sugar beets. When I was a kid they were weeded by hand. Herbicide resistant plants now allow chemicals to be used. What is left over from sugar production is good animal feed. We used to grow a lot of beets in Ohio and I think Michigan is still the leader as far as production.

[MaiChai]

The streets of Bangkok seem to get more and more packed with cars everyday, so everyone seems to want a car and no one seems to be bothered with the rising cost of fuel (or is everyone converting to LPG/NGV?).

There are several solutions to this:

Build more metro/subway railways. I know there is a great plan for all the railways they want; there seems to be a political and financial restraint on getting these progressed. All these new rail routes are not going to happen soon.

My solution is to leave the car at home and go by motorbike for city trips. This is much more efficient fuel wise (consumption is appalling city driving for a car/pickup anyway). I keep the car for supermarket runs and long trips out of the city. You can also get to where you want much quicker, and not have parking problems at the other end.

We recently parked in The Mall Bang Kapi at the weekend, and they put the price of the parking up to 90 baht for the four hours we stayed. I was horrified at this, and since then we visit by motorbike at the weekends. Interesting thing is the number of cars coming to park has reduced, but the motorbike park is now full Getting in and out of The Mall is much quicker than by car. Ok, we have to put up with the heat and pollution, but I get less frustrated by not being able to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time.

I have a good solution to the high oil price: The Americans invade Saudi Arabia on the grounds that OPEC are holding the world to ransom with oil prices. Once America is controlling this, and they are already in effect controlling Iraq, so that will ease the price a little

[rgs2001uk]

The streets of Bangkok seem to get more and more packed with cars everyday, so everyone seems to want a car and no one seems to be bothered with the rising cost of fuel (or is everyone converting to LPG/NGV?).

There are several solutions to this:

Build more metro/subway railways. I know there is a great plan for all the railways they want; there seems to be a political and financial restraint on getting these progressed. All these new rail routes are not going to happen soon.

My solution is to leave the car at home and go by motorbike for city trips. This is much more efficient fuel wise (consumption is appalling city driving for a car/pickup anyway). I keep the car for supermarket runs and long trips out of the city. You can also get to where you want much quicker, and not have parking problems at the other end.

We recently parked in The Mall Bang Kapi at the weekend, and they put the price of the parking up to 90 baht for the four hours we stayed. I was horrified at this, and since then we visit by motorbike at the weekends. Interesting thing is the number of cars coming to park has reduced, but the motorbike park is now full Getting in and out of The Mall is much quicker than by car. Ok, we have to put up with the heat and pollution, but I get less frustrated by not being able to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time.

I have a good solution to the high oil price: The Americans invade Saudi Arabia on the grounds that OPEC are holding the world to ransom with oil prices. Once America is controlling this, and they are already in effect controlling Iraq, so that will ease the price a little

the reason the number of cars in the car park has reduced is because those people in the know are parking in the teso lotus car park across the road for free, also a lot easier to get in and out of.

[Issangeorge]

If you go to this site it seems that E-85 cars get worse mileage than gasoline powered cars, but are better for the enviorment and depending on the price of of the two fuels are cheaper to run.http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm Issangeorge.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Issangeorge

[indothai]

The biggest question of them all:

- How much will it cost for ME to convert MY car to use E85?

If the government is ramping up to go E85 then all I can do now is to start saving up for that new E85 capable car... nothing much else I can do.

I remember when they pushed for E10, everyone was pretty much bashing it to no end... Here we are today, seeing E20 stations croping up slowly but surely.

So, I ask,... I've got a car now that I'm planning on using for another 8 years that is capable of only E10, what will the government do about it?

[Gary A]

The biggest question of them all:

- How much will it cost for ME to convert MY car to use E85?

If the government is ramping up to go E85 then all I can do now is to start saving up for that new E85 capable car... nothing much else I can do.

I remember when they pushed for E10, everyone was pretty much bashing it to no end... Here we are today, seeing E20 stations croping up slowly but surely.

So, I ask,... I've got a car now that I'm planning on using for another 8 years that is capable of only E10, what will the government do about it?

Your car will long have been recycled before you are forced to use E85. I have a Ford Focus that can use E20 and despite all the hype, I have yet to see E20 at the pumps.

[indothai]

E20 are sold at Bangchak stations in Bangkok. They are not a lot, but they are cropping up slowly and surely.

[Plus]

We asked about upgrading our e10 Camry to e20. They told us it would be about 80,000 baht with all the parts that need to be changed.

With E85 you are talking about replacing practically the whole engine and fuel system, and you will need a "flexi-fuel" car, as they call it, or you will not be able to run on gasoline, ever.

Thailand can import a few E85 cars from Europe but developing local production will take years even if Japanese buy the whole story. They still can't catch up with NGV policy, then shift to E20 policy, and now E85 policy.

The government has apparently abandoned NGV promotion among car makers even before they got started.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi

80k is a clear attempt to rip you off. Most Thai garages will do if you let them, they tried to sell my boyfriend a new cylinder head gasket when our car was repeatedly overheating, a cool 20k incl. work.

I changed the broken fan relay for 60 Baht myself, problem solved.

And to adopt a car to E85 or even E100 (= pure ethanol) all you need to change is the fuel lines (if rubber), maybe the gaskets/sealing in the fuel pump and the programming in your onboard computer - depending on car, this can be done by swapping a chip or reprogramming the one in there.

There was a link somewhere in this thread that talked about that sort of stuff, very informative read. After all, your engine doesn't care what fuel it burns, as long as that fuel is mixed with the right amount of oxygen to burn and ignited at the right time. And this mixing and igniting is controlled electronically (if you don't have an old carburetor-powered car) and hence a reprogram is all that's needed. To avoid excessive corrosion, seals and fuel lines have to be able to withstand ethanol, and that's it.

I guess my old Volvo would run just fine on E85 or E100, as it is able to run on anything 76 octane up. Would have to replace the lines and seals only, maybe 5k Baht if so much at all.

Best regards.....

Thanh

[ThaiPauly]

E-85 will never sully my tank.

Thats great news for your fish Doctor

[Lorin]

News about E85 is every day in business section of Bangkok Post now, if they really want it to happen this year, they need to cut the import tax IMHO.

[Issangeorge]

I have posted this elsewhere, but it is relevant for this thread. This came from http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/ethanol.html Flex-fuel vehicles are optimized to run on gasoline, which prevents them from taking advantage of the higher compression ratio and superior fuel-air mixture that is possible with ethanol. It is the engine design, not the fuel that causes flex-fuel vehicles to experience a 25% drop in fuel economy when running on E85.

Engines can be optimized for ethanol, substantially eliminating the mileage penalty. The 25% mileage penalty only occurs when a gasoline optimized engine is run with E85. The drop in mileage can be prevented by designing the engine for ethanol use. Alcohol fuels (ethanol or methanol) can tolerate compression ratios up to 15:1 or higher (like diesel which generally uses compression ratios of around 13:1 and gets higher mileage as a result). Gasoline is restricted to compression ratios below 10:1.

Gasoline engines throw off most of their power in heat losses. Ethanol’s higher octane offers engine manufacturers an opportunity to significantly improve engine efficiency with higher compression ratios that will convert more power into force that can turn the wheels, and reduce the heat losses. Issangeorge

[phutoie2]

I am sure I was reading an article in the Nation on a journey into Bangkok (Tuesday 10th) that no vehicles that run on E85 are manufactured in Thailand and will have to be imported if you want one. It went on to say that the major car manufactures were not too enthusiastic on the recent Thai governments policy/stance on E85.

Oh well-watch this space as they say!.

[Sojourner]

I have posted this elsewhere, but it is relevant for this thread. This came from http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/ethanol.html Flex-fuel vehicles are optimized to run on gasoline, which prevents them from taking advantage of the higher compression ratio and superior fuel-air mixture that is possible with ethanol. It is the engine design, not the fuel that causes flex-fuel vehicles to experience a 25% drop in fuel economy when running on E85.

Engines can be optimized for ethanol, substantially eliminating the mileage penalty. The 25% mileage penalty only occurs when a gasoline optimized engine is run with E85. The drop in mileage can be prevented by designing the engine for ethanol use. Alcohol fuels (ethanol or methanol) can tolerate compression ratios up to 15:1 or higher (like diesel which generally uses compression ratios of around 13:1 and gets higher mileage as a result). Gasoline is restricted to compression ratios below 10:1.

Gasoline engines throw off most of their power in heat losses. Ethanol’s higher octane offers engine manufacturers an opportunity to significantly improve engine efficiency with higher compression ratios that will convert more power into force that can turn the wheels, and reduce the heat losses. Issangeorge

You've done your homework. Higher compression compensates for the BTUs generated by alcohol being less than gasoline. Change out all components that decompose when in contact with alcohol or degenerate due to electrolysis as alcohol is a great conductor of electricity. Coat the tops of the pistons with a thin film of platinum to reduce emissions. It's just that you can't look back unless you want to rebuild the engine again. Only the old farts might remember that the Indy cars burn alcohol not gasoline and have for years. By the way Brazil is now looking at some major oil finds that dwarf Mexico's known reserves. It just keeps coming but at a higher price to get out of the ground.