'new Politics' And The Pad Challenge

[Johpa]

This "new" politics is not so new. It's called corporatism:

Under fascism in Italy, business owners, employees, trades-people, professionals, and other economic classes were organized into 22 guilds, or associations, known as "corporations" according to their industries, and these groups were given representation in a legislative body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporativism

Hey, I think I saw that film.

But call it what you will, Thai politics has always been about which segment of the Bangkok based ol' Boys network will get the biggest piece of the pie. That is why the standard euphemism in Thai for politics is kin muang. Nobody is really fighting over changing the basic political structure.

[h90]

A Question not a statement. The Pad is in my mind definetly involved in the Political system here. Why didn't it formally become a party and run in the elections?

Not enough funds to buy votes?

[h90]

I don't see how having a bunch of corrupt, lazy, inept, and selfish appointed officials would differ from the current elected government.

Well why appointed officials should be less corrupt than elected?

Who appoints them, and why the appointing agency is expected to be free of corruption?

I know what PAD hopes and means, but it isn't that easy....

[stuandchris]

All interesting reading but until Thai's accept the principle of elected gov, no matter how bad or good is what you are stuck with this will never change.

Of course the only way to democratic governiship is to get rid of corruption, so don't hold your breath, it will never change, hasn't done for countless years. If they ever wake up to the fact that corruption stops wealth then the country might take off but raking money in on the side is endemic from the lowest to the top.

Live for today mentality will keep Thailand a third world, or at best a second rate country.

[h90]

All interesting reading but until Thai's accept the principle of elected gov, no matter how bad or good is what you are stuck with this will never change.

Of course the only way to democratic governiship is to get rid of corruption, so don't hold your breath, it will never change, hasn't done for countless years. If they ever wake up to the fact that corruption stops wealth then the country might take off but raking money in on the side is endemic from the lowest to the top.

Live for today mentality will keep Thailand a third world, or at best a second rate country.

yes first we need democracy, that means no vote buying.

That live for today mentality comes because Thailand never had problems like Europe. If you don't plan min 8 month ahead you die in winter.

Since we have perfect supermarkets, the people get also more short-sighted.

[ray23]

Maybe the reality is that for fifty or so years a change in a system that has been around for a 1000 years.

I have came to the conclusion after finally getting some experience in living as an Expat, that Democracy comes in many forms, not just the one I'm used to. Nor do I beleive that the one I know will work everywhere.

Lot of good answers as to why they don't run for office and probably a little accuracy in each one.

Thank goodness we can sit by the sideline and watch. Mai Chai tura pom ( not my business)

[catmac]

A Question not a statement. The Pad is in my mind definetly involved in the Political system here. Why didn't it formally become a party and run in the elections?

Quite simple, really. PAD, like their chums in the Democratic Party, haven't a cats chance in H*ll of being elected! Which is why they want to do away with such inconveniences as having to contest a General Election, and just appoint themselves and their elitist chums to run the Country.

Very sound comparison to Mussolini's Italy, and didn't he kick off with that "march on Rome" to oust the elected Government?

[Plus]

What if I describe "new politics" as elections based not only on geographical location but on one's occupation and social group? What's wrong with that?

Look at the various groups demanding the govenment to do this and that - rice growers, garlic growers, bus operators, bus commuters, boat operators, truckers - everyday there's someone new.

Why do they all come to the government house with the problems? Plain answer - they don't have any political representation.

Who would truckers go to? Local MP? They come from all across the country, there isn't a single MP who'd be representing them. Even if they find an MP willing to listen - what can he do? He belongs to a party, he represents the party, not the people.

Look at Banharn, former PM, leader of the second largest coalition party, and he still can't do anything in parlament - he publicly asks for Noppadon's resignation but he couldn't vote against him just a week ago.

>>>

Thailand had dozens if not hundreds of parties for sixty years, and not a single one of them (apart from Democrats) can be truly called a political party with clear ideology. ALL of them ALWAYS abandon whatever ideology they profess for a position in the government. Who do they represent? Their owners, not the people. Who do they work for? Their owners, not the people.

"New politics" can change that completely. I'd say go for it, see if it can be adopted in any way, there's practically nothing left to lose anyway.

[PREM-R]

If, as stated earlier in the thread, 50% of the electorate are farmers then why would they not support the People Against Democracy party if they stood in an election as a party. The truth is that the Isaan farmers are the ones who elect the government in Thailand and the Bangkok "Academics" are the ones who lead to their ousting. You can change the faces and the names of the parties as many times as you wish but does anyone really believe that there is a will amongst the people who own and run Thailand to make any real changes, they are making billions of baht and they do not want to dilute that income by sharing it with the rest of the country.

[Plus]

Ok, with farmers it's a bit easier because there are so many of them. In fact it presumed that any MP from Isan was elected by farmers.

Two problems - being elected by farmers is not the same as representing them, and what about all other social groups in Isan? They'll never get their voice heard because there are just too many farmers. Clever politicians can play these groups against each other forever, like emerging middle class, or Isanese academics, they only need to get most votes, the "defeated" group will never get a chance of being represented.

So we end up with farmers beating Bangkokians in elections and Bangkokians beating governments out of the office. It's like the system is designed that the two groups cannot co-exist - the winner takes all and rules supreme.

Chalerm said he won't allocate any funds to Soutern provinces where he was booted out by protesters. Should the people of Krabi stoppaying taxes and form their own, alternative government now?

[Siripon]

I agree with the Democrats who say the way forward is through Parliament and civic society developing in tandem. The rise of NGOs can only be a good thing if it stimulates more awareness and participation in politics. The stronger checks and balances are starting to weed out more and more bad apples.

Sonthi's gone over the top with his proposal though, unacceptable in this day and age.

[Plus]

...unacceptable in this day and age.

I know what you mean, but a lot of stuff going on in Thai politics is unacceptable, too.

Still, there's no way they can implement this "new politics" at this point. It must be taken up by a society at large and considered when the next constution is written. Now it's just testing the water time.

Perhaps they should leave the lower House as it is and concentrate on the way half the Senate is appointed - that's where they can showcase their new ideas, check if they work at all.

Realistically, though, Thais consider themselves very democratically advanced already and would insist on nothing less than a top condition western model (with all the substance stripped, as usual). There's an enourmous national ego to satisfy.

[ray23]

Well now we are getting closer to my home country politics. Special interest groups and lobbyist. Money makes the machine n move, so until those group represent that money for election expnses, never going to happen.

Of course I'm not so sure that all of this gets the average guy representation. Doesn't seem so in the good old US of A

[WinnieTheKhwai]

No one can deny that parliamentary or representative democracy has been ridiculed around the world as being limited and incapable of facing world crises where evil capital is in control of things.

LOL... Bunch of clowns have *COMPLETELY* lost the plot.

What a bunch..

[Xangsamhua]

Sonthi's gone over the top with his proposal though, unacceptable in this day and age.

Aren't we talking about Suriyasai, not Sondhi - unless I've missed something?

I tried to google a bit more information about Suriyasai, to find out what he did before becoming a full time protestor, what his academic background is, etc. Partly out of curiosity and partly to find out what relevant experience he had to bear on this proposal - for a corporatist oligarchy. I couldn't find anything. I know about Thaksin's background; I know about Sondhi Limthongkul's, Samak's, Tirayut Boonmee's, etc.. You can get the info on Wikipedia about these guys (though nothing about Chalerm's, uhum, "doctorate"), but nothing about Suriyasai.

Who is Suriyasai? Where does he come from? What are his qualifications and experience? I'd really like to know.

PS I've been a keen supporter of Sondhi's and PAD's protest against corruption and their identification of key figures and specific facts, but I really wonder if they have anything to offer other than a focus for extra-parliamentary protest.

[clausewitz]

It is clear that Plachon is correct. Anyone disagreeing with PAD must be against Thailand and the Royal Family.

It will be an easy matter to decide the 70% of members who are selected, as this will be done by Chamlong Sri Maung and Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the Dear Leaders of PAD. If there is any disagreement between them they can consult The Little Red Book or Lenin's "How can you make a revolution without executions" for a definitive answer. We can look forward to a bright future where the proletariat are led wisely by elite minds.

All Proles are equal, but some proles are more equal than others.

Begging your pardon but might you have meant Sondhi Limthonkul of Manager Media Group?

I believe Sonthi Boonyaratgalin was chairman of the C.N.S. and led the coup in 2006.

Oops! Thanks for that correction.

[phupaman]

HI all.

I do think the PAD is going on a bit to much now, But I do believe you would have never seen Taksin and all his criminal cronies in the courts if they did not rally, one by one they are getting found guilty for thetr past crimes , It just needs a strong Judge to give long custodial sentences io a couple of them big fish , and slowly Thailand politics will start to clean up. So for that reason I still support the PAD. phupaman

[Artisi]

HI all.

I do think the PAD is going on a bit to much now, But I do believe you would have never seen Taksin and all his criminal cronies in the courts if they did not rally, one by one they are getting found guilty for thetr past crimes , It just needs a strong Judge to give long custodial sentences io a couple of them big fish , and slowly Thailand politics will start to clean up. So for that reason I still support the PAD. phupaman

I would tend to agree with the above, but as a non-Thai I believe that I need to keep my own very strong ideas to myself. However, having said that, I further believe it is fair to comment that change will only come about with the proper rule-of-law and time. We do need to remember as "farangs" we are from societies that have developed over many years - in some cases reaching back 1000 years which has been fraught with many ups and downs just as Thailand is going thru at the moment - let's hope that change however slow will prevail.

[h90]

HI all.

I do think the PAD is going on a bit to much now, But I do believe you would have never seen Taksin and all his criminal cronies in the courts if they did not rally, one by one they are getting found guilty for thetr past crimes , It just needs a strong Judge to give long custodial sentences io a couple of them big fish , and slowly Thailand politics will start to clean up. So for that reason I still support the PAD. phupaman

I would tend to agree with the above, but as a non-Thai I believe that I need to keep my own very strong ideas to myself. However, having said that, I further believe it is fair to comment that change will only come about with the proper rule-of-law and time. We do need to remember as "farangs" we are from societies that have developed over many years - in some cases reaching back 1000 years which has been fraught with many ups and downs just as Thailand is going thru at the moment - let's hope that change however slow will prevail.

And not everywhere developed in the right way. Most Europeans don't see the USA as a democracy at all (two more or less similar parties, with no chance for new movements), or on the other side Italy with a perfect democracy just it does not bring any output beside Berlusconi (a shame)

[nomoretalksin]

What if I describe "new politics" as elections based not only on geographical location but on one's occupation and social group? What's wrong with that?

Look at the various groups demanding the govenment to do this and that - rice growers, garlic growers, bus operators, bus commuters, boat operators, truckers - everyday there's someone new.

Why do they all come to the government house with the problems? Plain answer - they don't have any political representation.

Who would truckers go to? Local MP? They come from all across the country, there isn't a single MP who'd be representing them. Even if they find an MP willing to listen - what can he do? He belongs to a party, he represents the party, not the people.

Look at Banharn, former PM, leader of the second largest coalition party, and he still can't do anything in parlament - he publicly asks for Noppadon's resignation but he couldn't vote against him just a week ago.

>>>

Thailand had dozens if not hundreds of parties for sixty years, and not a single one of them (apart from Democrats) can be truly called a political party with clear ideology. ALL of them ALWAYS abandon whatever ideology they profess for a position in the government. Who do they represent? Their owners, not the people. Who do they work for? Their owners, not the people.

"New politics" can change that completely. I'd say go for it, see if it can be adopted in any way, there's practically nothing left to lose anyway.

Spot on!

I even would say, if we hadn't the PAD in the last 2 years, we wouldn't have seen hardly any positive changes at all (especially the good changes now on-going in the courts).

People's feelings are always represented on the streets. And if you go there and understand that the PAD people are commited to the fight against corruption, you will understand that I guess most Thai people share the same goal. We keep on dreaming (some are acting = PAD and others) for a better Thailand. PAD is doing the right thing, for the current situation. They will prevail and some day most voters will understand, that they have been hijacked since 2001/2 and the only honest good party in Thailand "The Democrats" will finally have a chance to clean up the mess what the others left behind. Go PAD go!

(please any poster coming again with the old song, that all politicians (especially parties) are corrupt, then please list us some negative actions done by "The Democrats", in the last view years - or read other/older threads here on TV. You just have to compile a list of corruptions cases, impeached politicians etc etc. , and you see where the weight balance nearly hits through to the other side of the earth)

[MrSnrang]

I don't see how having a bunch of corrupt, lazy, inept, and selfish appointed officials would differ from the current elected government.

Well why appointed officials should be less corrupt than elected?

Who appoints them, and why the appointing agency is expected to be free of corruption?

I know what PAD hopes and means, but it isn't that easy....

I meant that it won't make a difference.

Anyone in power here will be corrupt and until Thais can get the concept of personal responsibility through their heads, it will remain that way no matter if there is an elected government or an appointed one.

[nomoretalksin]

I don't see how having a bunch of corrupt, lazy, inept, and selfish appointed officials would differ from the current elected government.

Well why appointed officials should be less corrupt than elected?

Who appoints them, and why the appointing agency is expected to be free of corruption?

I know what PAD hopes and means, but it isn't that easy....

I meant that it won't make a difference.

Anyone in power here will be corrupt and until Thais can get the concept of personal responsibility through their heads, it will remain that way no matter if there is an elected government or an appointed one.

so you are trying to tell us , that people like Khun Abhisit, Korn, Apirak (his deputy), Rosana, Surayud, Surin, Prem, Ong-Art, Leekpai, Kiart, Teera, Sukhumbhand etc, etc. are corrupt?? Sorry I think you are painting an old inaccurate political landscape pic here.

Edited July 10, 2008 by nomoretalksin

[MrSnrang]

I don't see how having a bunch of corrupt, lazy, inept, and selfish appointed officials would differ from the current elected government.

Well why appointed officials should be less corrupt than elected?

Who appoints them, and why the appointing agency is expected to be free of corruption?

I know what PAD hopes and means, but it isn't that easy....

I meant that it won't make a difference.

Anyone in power here will be corrupt and until Thais can get the concept of personal responsibility through their heads, it will remain that way no matter if there is an elected government or an appointed one.

so you are trying to tell us , that people like Khun Abhisit, Korn, Apirak (his deputy), Rosana, Surayud, Surin, Prem, Ong-Art, Leekpai, Kiart, Teera, Sukhumbhand etc, etc. are corrupt?? Sorry I think you are painting an old inaccurate political landscape pic here.

Not necessarily those individuals, but corruption will certainly go on.

Elect them. Give them a few years. There will be scandal, perhaps not as immense as that of the TRT and other incarnations, but there will be bribery, embezzlement, and patronage.

[jumnien]

I don't see how having a bunch of corrupt, lazy, inept, and selfish appointed officials would differ from the current elected government.

Well why appointed officials should be less corrupt than elected?

Who appoints them, and why the appointing agency is expected to be free of corruption?

I know what PAD hopes and means, but it isn't that easy....

I meant that it won't make a difference.

Anyone in power here will be corrupt and until Thais can get the concept of personal responsibility through their heads, it will remain that way no matter if there is an elected government or an appointed one.

so you are trying to tell us , that people like Khun Abhisit, Korn, Apirak (his deputy), Rosana, Surayud, Surin, Prem, Ong-Art, Leekpai, Kiart, Teera, Sukhumbhand etc, etc. are corrupt?? Sorry I think you are painting an old inaccurate political landscape pic here.

Not necessarily those individuals, but corruption will certainly go on.

Elect them. Give them a few years. There will be scandal, perhaps not as immense as that of the TRT and other incarnations, but there will be bribery, embezzlement, and patronage.

The big difference is that if you vote them in, the PPP-TRT will be the opposition party and will not call for a coup or for the suspension of democracy and the elitist appointment of previously elected officials. That is what is tearing Thailand apart at the moment, the lack of a responsible non-military junta oriented opposition party!

[PREM-R]

sunrise07

....what is tearing Thailand apart at the moment, the lack of a responsible non-military junta oriented opposition party!

Just as Thailand is predominantly budhist because they could not find three wise men and and a virgin here, where would they find sufficient 'qualified' citizens to form a government who are not currently or would not after being elected fall under the influence of the people who own and run Thailand for their own ends?

Had JFK been a Thai he may have made a speach along the lines " Ask not what your country can do for you, ask instead what you can do for me!"

[Plus]

Anyone in power here will be corrupt and until Thais can get the concept of personal responsibility through their heads, it will remain that way no matter if there is an elected government or an appointed one.

Ah, but the facts are quitre different - appointed government ministers resigned at the very sign of imporpiety, and so did Apirak who stepped out while under investigation.

Elected ministers, like Chaya, stayed on until the court found them guilty, and initially demanded that his post was given to his brother if he were to resign.

There are still five elected ministers whose court cases are at various stages of progress. They wouldn't have been appointed in the first place - there's far more rigorous criteria to pass.

The real question is - why do appointed ministers have a lot more integrity than elected ones, and whether you could use this advantage, like PAD wants.

>>>

Thailand doesn't have a thousand years to develop its democracy, it's better catch up soon, and it's not democracy that is time critical here, it's the lack of competent government.

[Tony Clifton]

sunrise07

....what is tearing Thailand apart at the moment, the lack of a responsible non-military junta oriented opposition party!

Just as Thailand is predominantly budhist because they could not find three wise men and and a virgin here, where would they find sufficient 'qualified' citizens to form a government who are not currently or would not after being elected fall under the influence of the people who own and run Thailand for their own ends?

Had JFK been a Thai he may have made a speach along the lines " Ask not what your country can do for you, ask instead what you can do for me!"

How about " Ask not what your country can take from you but what you can take from your country" with this bunch of criminals and incompetent clowns.

[h90]

I don't see how having a bunch of corrupt, lazy, inept, and selfish appointed officials would differ from the current elected government.

Well why appointed officials should be less corrupt than elected?

Who appoints them, and why the appointing agency is expected to be free of corruption?

I know what PAD hopes and means, but it isn't that easy....

I meant that it won't make a difference.

Anyone in power here will be corrupt and until Thais can get the concept of personal responsibility through their heads, it will remain that way no matter if there is an elected government or an appointed one.

so you are trying to tell us , that people like Khun Abhisit, Korn, Apirak (his deputy), Rosana, Surayud, Surin, Prem, Ong-Art, Leekpai, Kiart, Teera, Sukhumbhand etc, etc. are corrupt?? Sorry I think you are painting an old inaccurate political landscape pic here.

not these, but who appoints who. Or lets say so: in companies the purchase manager is "appointed" but I hardly know one Purchase who don't ask us for money so we can receive the PO. Recently one hardly developed product complete failed as our sales guy didn't pay the technician a few 1000s.....

The corruption is everywhere.

Appointing would fix the problem for a short time, but in the long range the problems will come again.

[Meerkat]

Couldn't "selecting" rather than "electing" be seen to mean that instead of having to pay a lot of people a few baht, one would have to pay a few people a lot of baht?

[Plus]

Only if people on the selection commitee have no better reasons to be there.

They could instead run elections among people in the chosen field, not selection by outsiders. Say if you were a rice trader, would you vote for someone from your assosiation who is likely to ruin your business by awarding all contracts to his chronies? Compare this to a vote from a rice farmer or Bangkok lawyer - what's it matter to them either way? They are more likely to take the money.

The idea is to help people understand that corruption hurts. So far many of them think that it's excusable as long as they got more money themselves.

One other thing - it's not going to be corporations like in the early 20th century, as some say here, it will also include social groups like women or gays or disabled. The two last ones will never have representation otherwise, they are too small to support a party by themselves and their issues will always be buried under broader topics like populist policies or taxes or whatever.