Land For Sale Advice.

[Mosha]

My sister in law and her idiot huband, are splitting up and want to sell the land to split assets. This is what I know.

22 Rai 1700 trees in 1st year of production. This is where I am getting confused. There is no paper on the land according to my wife, so how can they sell it? I am meeting up with some expats tonight and my wife has asked me to mention this land. I have told her that if there is no paper, convincing a non Thai to part with money will not be easy.

Thoughts please.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Mosha

[Pierrot]

There is always a "paper" attached to a land.

Lickey made the effort to give us a summary of how things work in Thailand, here is the link :

LAND TYPES AND TITLES EXPLAINED

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Good-Deal-t2...09#entry2160309

[Mosha]

OK thanks, it sounds like I need to interrogate her further when she gets home. I'll start heating the irons now.

[Mosha]

OK I got it out of her. When I said paper she thought I meant Chanote. OK the land is Por Bor Tor 5, which just about describes most of the land in production around here. dam_n I was looking forward to using the irons too.

[Maizefarmer]

My personal opinion is NO - stay clear.

There are too many potential pitfalls/problems/complications with POR BOR TOR 5 titled land,. It is for lack of a better description a "squatters" titleship - and not ownership in/of any kind.

POR BOR TOR 5 land is best left to specialists to deal with. Now Mosha, let me tell you why - and anyone else with an eye on PBT5 land, you'd do yourself a favour to take note of the following practical aspects:

The first thing you should be aware of is this: POR BOR TOR 5 land cannot be legally bought or sold - not even the PBT5 certificate holder is allowed to sell land - all he/she owns are rights to use the land and reside on it while using it. Thats what they own - the rights to usage - they do not actually own the land.

Put aside discussion about ex-pats, land ownership and how best to structure land ownership, because this is an example of land not even a Thai can buy, sell or own.

The question then of course is?

Well, just what is one paying for if the money you hand over is to a person who does not own the land, and is not allowed to sell it?

You are in effect paying an "under the table" rent up front - and that too, I am afraid to not allowed. To the best of my knowldege the only person a PBT5 certificate can be transferred to is another family member (traditionaly the son or daughter of the holder upon their death - but not confined to just them).

In short you will have no legal right to the land or its usage.

Note - I said no legal right, not that the PBT5 certificate holder won't let you use it (they may and probably will) - just that your usage of the land will not be legal.

Now, if you are comfortable with that - go ahead, but keep in mind that what looks "nice and rosy" now may not be the status quo in 5 years time or whenever - in fact if there is ever a falling out you are going to have no legal recourse.

PBT5's are traditionaly issued on the basis of the fact that a prospective holder has being able to demonstrate he/his family have being the traditonal users/occupiers of the land for a long period of time - in fact, as said already noted, one of the rights that come with PBT5 land certificate, is the right to hand it down to a son/daughter , so that they can continue the family farming. This addresses the question of land transfer/ownership. i.e. namely that tranfer is confined to immediate family members.

It is correct that PBT5 land can be "upgraded", but keep in mind that while PBT5 land is adminstered at the local level, a desicion to upgrade it is not a local level decision. Applications to "upgrade" are handled at central government level - and purposely so to avoid transfer and sale on death by the family to make a profit.

Okay, that is the legal situation with the land - now what about any crop on the land e.g. rubbr trees?

It is common for PBT5 certificate holders to "mortgage" their latext crop, or the timber value of the trees before harvest - and that is 100% legal. In fact it I am quite sure it would be correct of me to add that as an ex-pat you could 100% legally hold the mortgage to the timber or latext, so long as you were carefull how such a document was structured. In fact, at the end of the day it would not suprize me that if just what you were buying into was rights to the timber and/or latext - at least legally I can;t see your rights extending much further than that.

Whatever the case, at the very least Mosha, not withstanding the above comments regards the legal status pertaining to the land, and assuming you still want to go ahead, I would advise you to commission a lawyer to undertake due dilligence on the "crop" i.e. establish beyond any doubt if it has/has not being already being "mortgaged" for a loan to an unknown 3rd party.

In summary: proceed by all means - but with caution.

I wish you all the best.

MF

Lastly - I am not an expert on land ownership in Thailand. I am speaking against the background of practical experiance (20 years "owing" farmland without ever having a dispute or "h'cup"). If I have incorrectly stated something here, anybody please feel free to correct me.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Maizefarmer

[Khonwan]

Now you could follow some advice and NEVER buy land that is not chanote, NEVER get into farming in the first place unless you have over 1,000 rai, NEVER do anything until you've considered all pros and cons for 5 years or more, NEVER...NEVER...NEVER...

or, you (i.e., your Thai partner) could reasonably safely buy Bor Tor 5 land with a very reasonable expectation of absolutely no problems.

My (wife's) own 200 rai has all started out as Bor Tor 5. It is only now being converted to Sor Por Kor, Sor Tor Gor, and Zone C plots of land. I have never had a problem throughout my 12 years of ownership.

So, pay a fortune for a chanote title...and TRY to recover the costs through your farming efforts...or buy the cheaper land knowing you should recover the cost in a very short period.

Your purchase contract (along with tax receipts) SHALL be accepted as evidence of your ownership at future upgrades.

Indeed, 'ownership' (as in use of the land) and transfer of these titles is a whole lot easier than Sor Por Kor land.

Take all of this as true from someone who has purchased such plots 11 times throughout the early part of the last 12 years and is currently upgrading them.

Rgds

Khonwan

[slapout]

Khonwan: I agree 100% with what you say and have seen none of the doom and gloom forecasts happen in my time watching and learning in the LOS. Of course I admit I understand just about zero where Thai thinking, morals, poltics, law, etc are concerned and when it comes to the application of any of the mentioned, my understand may approach a negative number. If all of the farang farmers I have had contact, with followed the doom/gloom theories I guess we would all be teaching English, bar owners, or some other boreing profession. I suspect most of us "Farmers" have a negative more often than postive cash flow from farming. If we were not willing to accept this I guess we would flood the market with land for the experts to buy at pauper prices. I am one of those whole try to look on the positive side for any venture after neutralizing as many of the negatives as I have the knowledge and power to. Now if I can figure how to apply all of this to the weather and my wife (women) I can use the profit to farm more land.

[Mosha]

Well I never said I was buying it (Although if I read it right we could as a transfer within the family - sister to sister) IF PBT5 ever became a major issue, I think many parts of Thailand would go up in flames. About 99% of the land I have seen sold round here is PBT5

[slapout]

Mosha; I speak with a little authority (next to zero) but do what feels best to you, within the family, you know if they are tobe trusted, land office can give approval, money is avaliable, and its what you are happy with, go for it. I agree with what Khonwan said with as a cheeky way of putting it. Maybe I was wrong but my take the NEVER was a up to you kind of advice. As I indicated above the self proclaimed experts have been shown wrong many times here in the past and probably more so in the future as people watch and remember their non-operational advice.

[Pierrot]

Now you could follow some advice and NEVER buy land that is not chanote, NEVER get into farming in the first place unless you have over 1,000 rai, NEVER do anything until you've considered all pros and cons for 5 years or more, NEVER...NEVER...NEVER...

or, you (i.e., your Thai partner) could reasonably safely buy Bor Tor 5 land with a very reasonable expectation of absolutely no problems.

My (wife's) own 200 rai has all started out as Bor Tor 5. It is only now being converted to Sor Por Kor, Sor Tor Gor, and Zone C plots of land. I have never had a problem throughout my 12 years of ownership.

So, pay a fortune for a chanote title...and TRY to recover the costs through your farming efforts...or buy the cheaper land knowing you should recover the cost in a very short period.

Your purchase contract (along with tax receipts) SHALL be accepted as evidence of your ownership at future upgrades.

Indeed, 'ownership' (as in use of the land) and transfer of these titles is a whole lot easier than Sor Por Kor land.

Take all of this as true from someone who has purchased such plots 11 times throughout the early part of the last 12 years and is currently upgrading them.

Rgds

Khonwan

I'll have to agree with you (I'm in the same situation) but I will never advise anybody to buy such kind of land.

Why ? Because there is risks. I know of all the investments I have, I'm going to lose money on some. My bet is, on the average, I'll win.

But a lot of people here are investing their life savings. If they lose, they lose everything. I would never invest my life savings on such lands.

[Khonwan]

I'll have to agree with you (I'm in the same situation) but I will never advise anybody to buy such kind of land.

Why ? Because there is risks. I know of all the investments I have, I'm going to lose money on some. My bet is, on the average, I'll win.

But a lot of people here are investing their life savings. If they lose, they lose everything. I would never invest my life savings on such lands.

Hi Pierrot

Could you clarify, please, what you mean? Have you lost out on some investment in non-chanote land because of dispute over the title, or had the land taken back from you by a government department, lost money on the purchase and subsequent resale, or…what?

Rgds

Khonwan

[Pierrot]

I'll have to agree with you (I'm in the same situation) but I will never advise anybody to buy such kind of land.

Why ? Because there is risks. I know of all the investments I have, I'm going to lose money on some. My bet is, on the average, I'll win.

But a lot of people here are investing their life savings. If they lose, they lose everything. I would never invest my life savings on such lands.

Hi Pierrot

Could you clarify, please, what you mean? Have you lost out on some investment in non-chanote land because of dispute over the title, or had the land taken back from you by a government department, lost money on the purchase and subsequent resale, or…what?

Rgds

Khonwan

What I was saying is when we invest money, some time we win, sometime we lose.

10 years ago, we bought a house in Bangkok, a very nice place. But as an investment, it's a disaster.

3 years ago we bought some land without chanote. So far it's a good investment. But it's only "so far" because we haven't sell the land. On the other hand, some of our neighbours got into serious trouble because it was found that their land encroach on national park or some local reservoir.... And it's people with friends and money !

And then, you have all the negociation with the neighbours ...

IMHO, if it's just for investment, a condo in Bangkok is a much safer bet !

[Lickey]

Quote Khonwan, My (wife's) own 200 rai has all started out as Bor Tor 5. It is only now being converted to Sor Por Kor, Sor Tor Gor, and Zone C plots of land.

Mrs tells me the farm is also BT5, and its been in the family name longer than she can remeber, [her grandad used to farm it] so would that automatically hold a chanote bt4 now or is there still some hoops to jump through?

Thanks J, Lickey..

[DaveD]

Now you could follow some advice and NEVER buy land that is not chanote, NEVER get into farming in the first place unless you have over 1,000 rai, NEVER do anything until you've considered all pros and cons for 5 years or more, NEVER...NEVER...NEVER...

or, you (i.e., your Thai partner) could reasonably safely buy Bor Tor 5 land with a very reasonable expectation of absolutely no problems.

My (wife's) own 200 rai has all started out as Bor Tor 5. It is only now being converted to Sor Por Kor, Sor Tor Gor, and Zone C plots of land. I have never had a problem throughout my 12 years of ownership.

So, pay a fortune for a chanote title...and TRY to recover the costs through your farming efforts...or buy the cheaper land knowing you should recover the cost in a very short period.

Your purchase contract (along with tax receipts) SHALL be accepted as evidence of your ownership at future upgrades.

Indeed, 'ownership' (as in use of the land) and transfer of these titles is a whole lot easier than Sor Por Kor land.

Take all of this as true from someone who has purchased such plots 11 times throughout the early part of the last 12 years and is currently upgrading them.

Rgds

Hi khonwan,

Yes i agree with you .We have bought land from the bank ,with chanoot title .We took our time and it was a few months before we got the land we were looking for .

What surprises me .is that land in the same area ,but with only por bor tor5 ,is selling for the same money.

I really dont get it.I would be prepared to gamble on PBT5 land ,but only if was a lot cheaper.

However in saying that ,it seems a lot of people go this way and never (or not yet) have problems.I regard land with chanoot as a good investment long term ,and the land can be used as collateral in a bank.

Khonwan

[Khonwan]

Quote Khonwan, My (wife's) own 200 rai has all started out as Bor Tor 5. It is only now being converted to Sor Por Kor, Sor Tor Gor, and Zone C plots of land.

Mrs tells me the farm is also BT5, and its been in the family name longer than she can remeber, [her grandad used to farm it] so would that automatically hold a chanote bt4 now or is there still some hoops to jump through?

Thanks J, Lickey..

Not necessarily, Lickey. It will probably end up being upgraded to chanote at some point but will probably be upgraded first to Sor Por Kor. The process can take just a few years, or decades. It’s completely in the hands of the authority – nothing much you can do to hurry it along.

Rgds

Khonwan

PS I’m having a really tough time with my Internet connection these past few days – takes me forever to get a connection that usually lasts only for a minute or two; I’m taking my systems to be checked out tomorrow.

[Pierrot]

Not necessarily, Lickey. It will probably end up being upgraded to chanote at some point but will probably be upgraded first to Sor Por Kor. The process can take just a few years, or decades. It's completely in the hands of the authority – nothing much you can do to hurry it along.

What I learned (I may be wrong) is the uprgrade process concern an area (village ...), not just a parcel. So one cannot apply individually to have his land upgraded but has to wait that the all area be upgraded. Am I right ?

[Lickey]

Thanks Khonwan, good luck with fixing the connection,

Pierrot, Mrs confirms your post, saying that if an area looks like its doing well and expanding,then a goverment agent will call and upgrade your land as he sees fit, nobody knows when this will happen in there area and i think this is what Khonwan is getting at.

Cheers, Lickey.

[lannarebirth]

Not necessarily, Lickey. It will probably end up being upgraded to chanote at some point but will probably be upgraded first to Sor Por Kor. The process can take just a few years, or decades. It's completely in the hands of the authority – nothing much you can do to hurry it along.

What I learned (I may be wrong) is the uprgrade process concern an area (village ...), not just a parcel. So one cannot apply individually to have his land upgraded but has to wait that the all area be upgraded. Am I right ?

Generally speaking, that is true. It is not true if the parcel you seek to upgrade is contiguous to another parcel of higher title. that upgrade process is made easier still if you are the owner of that adjoining parcel. Still, a bit of a hassle, requiring constant prodding, but generally achievable.

[donx]

Quote Khonwan, My (wife's) own 200 rai has all started out as Bor Tor 5. It is only now being converted to Sor Por Kor, Sor Tor Gor, and Zone C plots of land.

Mrs tells me the farm is also BT5, and its been in the family name longer than she can remeber, [her grandad used to farm it] so would that automatically hold a chanote bt4 now or is there still some hoops to jump through?

Thanks J, Lickey..

Not necessarily, Lickey. It will probably end up being upgraded to chanote at some point but will probably be upgraded first to Sor Por Kor. The process can take just a few years, or decades. It’s completely in the hands of the authority – nothing much you can do to hurry it along.

Rgds

Khonwan

PS I’m having a really tough time with my Internet connection these past few days – takes me forever to get a connection that usually lasts only for a minute or two; I’m taking my systems to be checked out tomorrow.

A few years ago, my wife purchased two plots of Sor Tor Gor land. One was 17 rai and the other 10 rai. She has since sold the 17 rai plot. She is still holding onto the 10 rai plot which her brother has replanted with rubber trees. My question is do you know what the differences are between Sor Por Kor and Sor Tor Gor? Is Sor Tor Gor closer to becoming chanote titled? My wife said that the Sor Tor Gor title is a real land title and that she owns the land, but that she can't borrow money from a bank with it. She didn't say if a house can be built on it or not, but I would also like to know if this would be possible before being converted to a chanote.

I've searched several times on the internet for an explanation of Sor Tor Gor land and I've never found much of anything.

[lannarebirth]

Quote Khonwan, My (wife's) own 200 rai has all started out as Bor Tor 5. It is only now being converted to Sor Por Kor, Sor Tor Gor, and Zone C plots of land.

Mrs tells me the farm is also BT5, and its been in the family name longer than she can remeber, [her grandad used to farm it] so would that automatically hold a chanote bt4 now or is there still some hoops to jump through?

Thanks J, Lickey..

Not necessarily, Lickey. It will probably end up being upgraded to chanote at some point but will probably be upgraded first to Sor Por Kor. The process can take just a few years, or decades. It's completely in the hands of the authority – nothing much you can do to hurry it along.

Rgds

Khonwan

PS I'm having a really tough time with my Internet connection these past few days – takes me forever to get a connection that usually lasts only for a minute or two; I'm taking my systems to be checked out tomorrow.

A few years ago, my wife purchased two plots of Sor Tor Gor land. One was 17 rai and the other 10 rai. She has since sold the 17 rai plot. She is still holding onto the 10 rai plot which her brother has replanted with rubber trees. My question is do you know what the differences are between Sor Por Kor and Sor Tor Gor? Is Sor Tor Gor closer to becoming chanote titled? My wife said that the Sor Tor Gor title is a real land title and that she owns the land, but that she can't borrow money from a bank with it. She didn't say if a house can be built on it or not, but I would also like to know if this would be possible before being converted to a chanote.

I've searched several times on the internet for an explanation of Sor Tor Gor land and I've never found much of anything.

My wife owns quite a bit of Sor Tor Gor land. As far as I know it is the only non paered land designation that was created to upgrade directly to Chanote. Sor Tor Gor land falls under the administration of the Forest Department and depending on where you are a title upgrade could be coming soon or many years hence.

You can build on it but t usually described in very rough metes and bounds terms so boundarys and parcel size are usually not exact. I have seen maps of her land at the Forest Dept and they are extremely crude and ill defined. Still, they have her name (or family member) on it and that is part of the process. If the STG land is adjacent to Chanote land the upgrade process can be quite rapid and needn't be done "when they get to your area".

Cab I ask you, does it have the square cement pegs at the corners or just the odd slasg of red paint on a tree to demark boundaries? Have you fenced it? Decent road in yet? Electric?

Most people would caution that you shouldn't build oon this land until it's upgraded, but I'm not one of them. That is assuming your wife has done her research well, has clearance from the puyai ban and adjoining owners.

[donx]

Quote Khonwan, My (wife's) own 200 rai has all started out as Bor Tor 5. It is only now being converted to Sor Por Kor, Sor Tor Gor, and Zone C plots of land.

Mrs tells me the farm is also BT5, and its been in the family name longer than she can remeber, [her grandad used to farm it] so would that automatically hold a chanote bt4 now or is there still some hoops to jump through?

Thanks J, Lickey..

Not necessarily, Lickey. It will probably end up being upgraded to chanote at some point but will probably be upgraded first to Sor Por Kor. The process can take just a few years, or decades. It's completely in the hands of the authority – nothing much you can do to hurry it along.

Rgds

Khonwan

PS I'm having a really tough time with my Internet connection these past few days – takes me forever to get a connection that usually lasts only for a minute or two; I'm taking my systems to be checked out tomorrow.

A few years ago, my wife purchased two plots of Sor Tor Gor land. One was 17 rai and the other 10 rai. She has since sold the 17 rai plot. She is still holding onto the 10 rai plot which her brother has replanted with rubber trees. My question is do you know what the differences are between Sor Por Kor and Sor Tor Gor? Is Sor Tor Gor closer to becoming chanote titled? My wife said that the Sor Tor Gor title is a real land title and that she owns the land, but that she can't borrow money from a bank with it. She didn't say if a house can be built on it or not, but I would also like to know if this would be possible before being converted to a chanote.

I've searched several times on the internet for an explanation of Sor Tor Gor land and I've never found much of anything.

My wife owns quite a bit of Sor Tor Gor land. As far as I know it is the only non paered land designation that was created to upgrade directly to Chanote. Sor Tor Gor land falls under the administration of the Forest Department and depending on where you are a title upgrade could be coming soon or many years hence.

You can build on it but t usually described in very rough metes and bounds terms so boundarys and parcel size are usually not exact. I have seen maps of her land at the Forest Dept and they are extremely crude and ill defined. Still, they have her name (or family member) on it and that is part of the process. If the STG land is adjacent to Chanote land the upgrade process can be quite rapid and needn't be done "when they get to your area".

Cab I ask you, does it have the square cement pegs at the corners or just the odd slasg of red paint on a tree to demark boundaries? Have you fenced it? Decent road in yet? Electric?

Most people would caution that you shouldn't build oon this land until it's upgraded, but I'm not one of them. That is assuming your wife has done her research well, has clearance from the puyai ban and adjoining owners.

I have never seen this land myself and when I asked my wife about the boundary markers she said she doesn't remember seeing them. I didn't ask her about whether there is a fence, but it is rare in that area (Phatthalung) for fences to be erected around rubber tree land such as this. She did say that the road leading to the property is not very good and it is on rather unlevel land which makes it more difficult to cut the rubber. I don't know about Electric but I will assume there isn't any.

We bought this land as a way to provide her family members with a revenue stream. At first we were splitting the profits, but that didn't last long because the 17 rai we sold which had mature trees were either tapped out or intensionally damaged by the previous owner in order to get the most out of them. We sold this land at a profit of 15,000 baht per rai to someone that probably cut and sold the trees for lumber. I believe that the 10 rai we still have will be producing in the very near future. My wife also has land she will inherit from her parents (because we kept it from being repossessed by the bank) that make a total of about 28 rai of land. As to what the title of the inherited land is, I couldn't say. I do know that it is supposed to be upgraded to Chanote very soon.

I like the idea of having a house in a mountainous landscape. I really want to see it next time I visit, but it's hard getting my wife to show me. She just doesn't understand why I am so interested in boring farm land. She doesn't see the future potential that I see. I don't plan on building anything there for at least another 10 years so I can wait for the title to be converted.

[Lickey]

Im having a bit of a problem undertanding all this land paper/ownership buisness, not with the forum as such but what the mrs tells me...

A brief description of her 40rai farm.

Its totally fenced off with barbed wire and has dedicated boundaries marked with concrete posts,it has 4 permanent buildings,1,sawmill,2,secure store for BIL building bits and pieces,3,Covered rest area with toilet,4,our small 1 room with balcony to look over the village and surrounding mountains farmhouse, its the only farm for many miles ive een fenced off like this, other than livestock farms.

And she insists its POR BOR TOR 5, isnt this a bit of a risk with buildings ect? after reading the below..

Por Bor Tor 5

This type of land is agricultural land or forestry not under ownership of the local land office. The local village leader is normally appointed as the administrator and is responsible for maintaining possessory rights ownership boundaries. When land is sold, the transaction is carried out under the supervisory role of the village leader. As with Sor Kor 1, one cannot construct upon this land.

Comments welcome, Thanks Lickey.

[Khonwan]

^

Hi Lickey

I can’t quote law on this but I can tell you what is ‘custom & practice’ throughout Thailand for this land title. Construction of dwellings and buildings supporting agricultural endeavours is completely normal and acceptable. You’ve absolutely nothing to worry about.

Rgds

Khonwan

[Maizefarmer]

Im having a bit of a problem undertanding all this land paper/ownership buisness, not with the forum as such but what the mrs tells me...

A brief description of her 40rai farm.

Its totally fenced off with barbed wire and has dedicated boundaries marked with concrete posts,it has 4 permanent buildings,1,sawmill,2,secure store for BIL building bits and pieces,3,Covered rest area with toilet,4,our small 1 room with balcony to look over the village and surrounding mountains farmhouse, its the only farm for many miles ive een fenced off like this, other than livestock farms.

And she insists its POR BOR TOR 5, isnt this a bit of a risk with buildings ect? after reading the below..

Por Bor Tor 5

This type of land is agricultural land or forestry not under ownership of the local land office. The local village leader is normally appointed as the administrator and is responsible for maintaining possessory rights ownership boundaries. When land is sold, the transaction is carried out under the supervisory role of the village leader. As with Sor Kor 1, one cannot construct upon this land.

Comments welcome, Thanks Lickey.

Lickey - buildings related to the agricultural activity can be constructed on PBT 5 land.

What is not allowed (and this is what the law strives to stop happening), is "development" of the land - "development" meaning: the build of dwellings to rent out, the construction of a corner shop to retail goods, the construction of warehousing facilities, the building of workshops ...... ditto ditto, ect ect ........ you have, as Khonan says,nothing to worry about.

[keg]

I have posted this info on land docuents in the past and will post them again. I found them on the internet doing some research as my wife had bought some Sor Por Kor land. I believe the previous posters are correct as well in that when it states can't be built on it refers to residential or commercial structures and not farming related structures. I am no expert but below is what I found:

Chanote is the top land title and gives full ownership rights to the owner and has an accurate survey with boundary markers. This is the only true land ownership document.

Next is Nor Sor 3 and Nor Sor 3 Kor - This land can be bought and sold and gives the possessor most rights associated with ownership. The difference in the two is how accurate the survey is. Nor Sor 3 Kor has an accurate survey with boundary markers where Nor Sor 3 has a survey but no boundary markers which could lead to disputes with neighbors.

Next is Sor Por Kor - This is land that is allotted by and overseen by the land reform committee. This land has an accurate survey and defined boundaries. The difference with this land is that the possessor can only pass this land down to legal heirs and it can not be bought or sold. I believe that a large portion of rural Issan farm land is of this type of title. The intent is that the land stay in the family and not be bought up by rich land speculators.

Next is Por Bor Tor 5 - This land is either farm or forest land not under ownership or control of the land office. This land is administered by a local village leader who oversees possession rights and boundaries. Sales are carried out under the supervision of this village leader and recorded locally only. This land can’t be built upon.

Por Bor Tor 6 - This is a document issued for all land so that it can be assessed for taxes.

Next is Sor Kor 1 - This entitles the possessor to occupy the land and farm it only. It can’t be built upon. It can’t be sold but only transferred to heirs. This is the basic squatters rights document. After long term occupation, application can be made to upgrade title. This application can only be made by the long term possessor. Most Sor Kor 1 land has already been upgraded to Nor Sor 3 land.

Keg

[lannarebirth]

I have posted this info on land docuents in the past and will post them again. I found them on the internet doing some research as my wife had bought some Sor Por Kor land. I believe the previous posters are correct as well in that when it states can't be built on it refers to residential or commercial structures and not farming related structures. I am no expert but below is what I found:

Chanote is the top land title and gives full ownership rights to the owner and has an accurate survey with boundary markers. This is the only true land ownership document.

Next is Nor Sor 3 and Nor Sor 3 Kor - This land can be bought and sold and gives the possessor most rights associated with ownership. The difference in the two is how accurate the survey is. Nor Sor 3 Kor has an accurate survey with boundary markers where Nor Sor 3 has a survey but no boundary markers which could lead to disputes with neighbors.

Next is Sor Por Kor - This is land that is allotted by and overseen by the land reform committee. This land has an accurate survey and defined boundaries. The difference with this land is that the possessor can only pass this land down to legal heirs and it can not be bought or sold. I believe that a large portion of rural Issan farm land is of this type of title. The intent is that the land stay in the family and not be bought up by rich land speculators.

Next is Por Bor Tor 5 - This land is either farm or forest land not under ownership or control of the land office. This land is administered by a local village leader who oversees possession rights and boundaries. Sales are carried out under the supervision of this village leader and recorded locally only. This land can't be built upon.

Por Bor Tor 6 - This is a document issued for all land so that it can be assessed for taxes.

Next is Sor Kor 1 - This entitles the possessor to occupy the land and farm it only. It can't be built upon. It can't be sold but only transferred to heirs. This is the basic squatters rights document. After long term occupation, application can be made to upgrade title. This application can only be made by the long term possessor. Most Sor Kor 1 land has already been upgraded to Nor Sor 3 land.

Keg

Good stuff, thank you.

I would add that Sor Tor Gor registered land must have a simple dwelling (minimally) built upon it as part of it's upgrade process. Also, when upgraded it goes straight to Chanote title, which will have a 5 or 10 year sales restriction on it, which is fairly meaningless.

[Lickey]

I have posted this info on land docuents in the past and will post them again. I found them on the internet doing some research as my wife had bought some Sor Por Kor land. I believe the previous posters are correct as well in that when it states can't be built on it refers to residential or commercial structures and not farming related structures. I am no expert but below is what I found:

Chanote is the top land title and gives full ownership rights to the owner and has an accurate survey with boundary markers. This is the only true land ownership document.

Next is Nor Sor 3 and Nor Sor 3 Kor - This land can be bought and sold and gives the possessor most rights associated with ownership. The difference in the two is how accurate the survey is. Nor Sor 3 Kor has an accurate survey with boundary markers where Nor Sor 3 has a survey but no boundary markers which could lead to disputes with neighbors.

Next is Sor Por Kor - This is land that is allotted by and overseen by the land reform committee. This land has an accurate survey and defined boundaries. The difference with this land is that the possessor can only pass this land down to legal heirs and it can not be bought or sold. I believe that a large portion of rural Issan farm land is of this type of title. The intent is that the land stay in the family and not be bought up by rich land speculators.

Next is Por Bor Tor 5 - This land is either farm or forest land not under ownership or control of the land office. This land is administered by a local village leader who oversees possession rights and boundaries. Sales are carried out under the supervision of this village leader and recorded locally only. This land can't be built upon.

Por Bor Tor 6 - This is a document issued for all land so that it can be assessed for taxes.

Next is Sor Kor 1 - This entitles the possessor to occupy the land and farm it only. It can't be built upon. It can't be sold but only transferred to heirs. This is the basic squatters rights document. After long term occupation, application can be made to upgrade title. This application can only be made by the long term possessor. Most Sor Kor 1 land has already been upgraded to Nor Sor 3 land.

Keg

Which is exactly the same in this link i posted earlier in this topic.

LAND TYPES AND TITLES EXPLAINED

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Good-Deal-t2...09#entry2160309

[donx]

I have posted this info on land docuents in the past and will post them again. I found them on the internet doing some research as my wife had bought some Sor Por Kor land. I believe the previous posters are correct as well in that when it states can't be built on it refers to residential or commercial structures and not farming related structures. I am no expert but below is what I found:

Chanote is the top land title and gives full ownership rights to the owner and has an accurate survey with boundary markers. This is the only true land ownership document.

Next is Nor Sor 3 and Nor Sor 3 Kor - This land can be bought and sold and gives the possessor most rights associated with ownership. The difference in the two is how accurate the survey is. Nor Sor 3 Kor has an accurate survey with boundary markers where Nor Sor 3 has a survey but no boundary markers which could lead to disputes with neighbors.

Next is Sor Por Kor - This is land that is allotted by and overseen by the land reform committee. This land has an accurate survey and defined boundaries. The difference with this land is that the possessor can only pass this land down to legal heirs and it can not be bought or sold. I believe that a large portion of rural Issan farm land is of this type of title. The intent is that the land stay in the family and not be bought up by rich land speculators.

Next is Por Bor Tor 5 - This land is either farm or forest land not under ownership or control of the land office. This land is administered by a local village leader who oversees possession rights and boundaries. Sales are carried out under the supervision of this village leader and recorded locally only. This land can't be built upon.

Por Bor Tor 6 - This is a document issued for all land so that it can be assessed for taxes.

Next is Sor Kor 1 - This entitles the possessor to occupy the land and farm it only. It can't be built upon. It can't be sold but only transferred to heirs. This is the basic squatters rights document. After long term occupation, application can be made to upgrade title. This application can only be made by the long term possessor. Most Sor Kor 1 land has already been upgraded to Nor Sor 3 land.

Keg

Which is exactly the same in this link i posted earlier in this topic.

LAND TYPES AND TITLES EXPLAINED

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Good-Deal-t2...09#entry2160309

Both of which fail to mention Sor Tor Gor at all. Why? Why is it so difficult for me to find any information (other than the wonder posts in this thread) on this type of land title?

[Lickey]

I agree with you Donx, ive searched the internet with 3 engines and cannot find Sor Tor Gor atall, all the other titles yes, no problem, perhaps its a miss pronounciation of Sor Por Gor, the links have details ect on that, and heres another one ,

http://phuket-realestate-law.com/law/law/land_ownership.htm ..

So please all farmers, can you post a link to Sor Tor Gor, or is it spelt wrong, Thanks Lickey..

Edited August 29, 2008 by Lickey

[Lickey]

Done another search tonight and still cant find SOR TOR GOR land, its nowhere in any land/development sites in Thailand,