PAD Lay Siege On Government House, NBT TV Station

[animatic]

Thaksin's machine TRT threw just enough bones to the up country poor

to make them think things will change for them in some significant way.

But it has been more a sop to gain control of their votes.

TRT also co-opted the kamnan's and cliques of influencial persons,

throwing money to their disposal for local patronage,

but in bigger amounts than previous partys could do.

And used this network to manipulate the electorate.

And continued to do this as policy, with little though

of HOW to pay the bills coming due on this.

Many middle class objected to paying TRT's bills that kept them in power.

but helped the little people rather little.

Then when Dr T. got into power he got stroked by too many people,

in the classic feudal mannor, it went to his head and he thought

he was omnipotent. Especially after he beat the hidden assets rap in 2001.

He proceded to use a democracy in a classic feudal style, not a modern democratic style.

His government turned into a magnificent self serving kleptocracy

of gigantic proportions.his ego followed suit and he over reached repeatedly.

If he'd been satisfied with only doubling his money while in office, most here would

have just shrugged but he went for the brass ring now plated gold,

and stepped on MANY old toes in the process.

Those chickens are coming home to roost.

PAD's main issue has always been removing the tentacles of Thaksin's

power machine, this is what brought them back from the sidelines after the election

Thaksin STILL pulling the strings to regain his power, and save his ill gotten gains.

This whole debacle we are witnessing this week is DIRECTLY connected to

Thaksin not backing off his attempts to control this country for his own profit.

Other groups and ideologies are now more or less grafting themselves onto this

core anti-Thaksin bandwagon, but the core is; erdicate his long reach,

or there NEVER can be a possibility of true democracy here.

IF we ignore the add on opportunistic additions and assorted revenge motives,

and assorted musing on interim or long term governance designs,

we see a cleaning of house that was not completed before.

Sadly this whole mess was preordained when the last government didn't properly

detach Thaksins fingers from the trough of profits he so misses.

The current cabinet was put in place to reattach itself for Dr. T.s benefit

with trickle down patronage for all assisting. Classic feudal control strategy.

Escalating rhetoric aside this was inevitable. You can't allow an 'on the run' ego-maniacal,

mega-rich oligarch to control your government by proxy and call it an actual democracy.

This was the situation since December. This is why PAD re-emerged.

PAD did NOT try and become a party or a government after 2006,

which would have been a perfect opportunity to do so.

Why not, one must ask; if their aim is to 'take over the country'

as many seem to imply here? Seems a stretch.

No they dropped back and went into watch dog roll.

And didn't re-emerge until it became clear Thaksin was lying through his teeth about

staying out of politics. So they re-emerged and fought his control,

till this inevitable denoument that we are witnessing now.

One feudal group masquerading as a democracy

vs one not pretending to be anything but what it is.

The one heartening thing is that the little people

seem to be so keen for changing the system.

And this runs counter to BOTH old school groups,

no matter the sheeps clothes they are parading in.

Edited August 30, 2008 by animatic

[cmsally]

AP article

These and similar articles seem to reflect the general consensus abroad.

Can anyone really see a clear and alternative viewpoint?

Definitely there are problems within the system; of vote buying , corruption and all the other vested interests and power cliques.

But is an overthrow of the government and ignoring law and order the way to sort it out?

Do we really want a situation where some of the population decide they want to topple an elected government or if you read it another way, where some of the population are manipulated to topple an elected government.

On the one hand we have protestors letting all hel_l loose about police brutality. Police brutality is the use of excessive force to keep law & order. At the moment they are nowhere near keeping law and order.

I would hope to see more international articles in the foreign press really dragging some egos through the mud and then maybe some people would wake up as to how stupid they look.

If this is allowed to go on there will be a precedent set and if it swings back the other way, you will have the other side protesting. That of course is if they are allowed to protest.

[coreyp2]

I am trying to understand the situation. I found the following

http://socialistworker.org/2008/08/28/behi...ailand-protests

It seems to me to be a reasoned and resonable account. Would others agree?

(I have not read all 92 pages and maybe this has been mentioned already - if so sorry)

[catmac]

Hmmmm...

You have a Protest leader, who owns a police station, which constantly airs free service announcements against Child Labour, against family violence, against sex slavery. A station that educates people about AIDS and other things

You have protest leaders who have been keeping large masses of people demonstrating peacefully. Protest leaders who know how to organize defensive moves to hold their ground at the government building

Lots of intelligent people supporting them....doctors, teachers, University Students, Pilots, etc....

while they are leading a peaceful, civil disobedience protest...

...and you call them bad

Then you got Samak and his corrupt government, who only got elected, because they bought the votes, who have less than 50% of voter support in Thailand (even after spending billions of Baht trying to buy it), who use force to deal with peaceful demonstrators, beating on old men and women, etc....

A government that tortures innocent hilltribe people to admit to crimes they didn't commit. An illegal government under Thai constitution, because of it's leaders being involved in vote buying..

and you they they are good????

Give me a break.

I openly support the PAD, so does my Thai wife and we are proud of it.

For 24 hour coverage of the demonstrations here is the ASTV link...

http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/

I seriously doubt that you are what you claim to be.

Why do you find it necessary to post nonsense (now Samak is "torturing hill-tribe people.....") at regular intervals just to constantly post the link to ASTV?

[jts-khorat]

while they are leading a peaceful, civil disobedience protest...

...and you call them bad

I openly support the PAD, so does my Thai wife and we are proud of it.

So smashing up the Phuket Airport terminal counts as peaceful then. Well, well, the grass must be much greener where you live..

[Colonel_Mustard]

PAD did NOT try and become a party or a government after 2006,

which would have been a perfect opportunity to do so. Why one must ask if their aim is to 'take over the country'

as many seem to imply here? Seems a stretch.

Because they wouldn't have won and might have had to try and figure out some coherent policies instead of continuing their vendetta against Thaksin and his allies.

[HelterSkelter]

What we have here and now in Thailand is a situation where by less than 0.1% of the voters are mounting a campaign of civil unrest and violence in an effort to force their will on the other 99.9% of voters.

Your post is well-written and fairly well thought out. Why would you end it with a meaningless statistic that you can't possibly defend? The fact of the matter is that nobody really knows how many people the PAD represent.

The Latest Stats I Saw on ASTV (Though shurely Biased and doctored in the translation from Thai to English!)

The BKK Univ did a pole on Thurs(Friday Morn Broadcast) 17% supported PAD. Most from the South of Thailand.(This is Before My own knowledge of "Buying Peoples" (500 Baht for a day)to fill busses bound for Bangkok from rural areas of Isan( Loei,Udon Thani,Khorat)

So it is Clear that a Minority of Peoples mobilized by a gang of Financially supported Thugs are Terrorizing the MajorityAnd Threatening to excerpt their will upon them.(Amazing Use/Abuse of TV as a Brain Wash Tool! Bush was also (Admin) good at that trick!)

[jts-khorat]

A truly educated peasant class is the very last thing that the bourgeoise and middle classes should be demanding--- it would very likely yield a left wing movement the likes of which this country has never experienced. Those operating under the misguided notion that education means people vote in the best interests of their wealthier neighbors- would be in for a very rude awakening.

Thailand -- or better said -- Samak, has been quite successful in preventing just this; he had his hand in the coup of 1976 and in the 1992 shooting of student protesters. He should be well equipped to quell anything against him with force... that he did not do so far shows that something else is brewing behind the scenes.

Although in 2008 interviews with CNN and al-Jazeera Samak denied involvement in the 6 October 1976 massacre that left officially at least 46 dead, Samak insists only 1 person was left dead. Accounts from witnesses, documents and published reports clearly identify Samak as chief operator of the "Armoured Car" radio programme, an ultra-right wing broadcast that constantly expounded anti-communist and pro-right propaganda.

In 1992, as Deputy Prime Minister in the Suchinda administration, Samak justified the military's brutal suppression of pro-democracy demonstrators by declaring that the government had the right to do so.

[Bangyai]

Maybe we need to take a step back here. There's no democracy I can think of that's arrived at perfection (vide USA, UK - those paragons). It takes TIME. Hundreds of years. Remember rotten boroughs? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotten_and_pocket_boroughs). The UK got rid of them eventually, but it took a long time.

The fact is we have, on the one side, an utterly corrupt and discredited, yet legally elected government (yes, yes, I know - corruption, vote buying etc, but they all do that, even in so-called super-democracies) stocked with odious people who are only after the money and don't plan to leave until they've got lots of it - which is why Samak's not quit yet.

On the other side in the current fight is a non-elected group whose leaders pitch themselves as saintly and peace-loving ("No! Don't hit that policeman!") but who actually believe that most people in this country are too bloody thick to elect a decent government, and therefore plan to kick out the foundations of democracy and set up some kind of nasty appointed plutocratic system.

Who is Sondhi? Was he ever elected to anything? Is he even a good businessman? Er, no. Is he clean? Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sondhi_Limtho....281997-2001.29 and decide for yourself. Yet he has the arrogance to suggest that the average Thai (outside Bkk, of course) is too dim to know what's good for him/her.

Who's Chamlong? Sometimes charming and apparently utterly incorruptible. How did he become governor of Bkk? He was elected! So the system does work sometimes in favour of the righteous. But now he's getting bored because political nibbana is not arriving fast enough. Sigh.

The Samak governnment is odious, money-grubbing, divisive, ugly, incompetent and lots of otehr pejoratives, but it's still sort of "democratic". The PAD is absolutely not. It's never formed a polutical party. It's never run for election. If Sondhi has his way, how long will it be before the average dirt-poor farmer, thick though he may be, gets any say in anything? Not in Sondhi's lifetime, at least.

One does have to hope that the military stick by their statements that they will not launch another coup. It might be popular if they do launch one, but it opens the door to Sondhi killing democracy for many years. It would be a huge setback.

As Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government…except for all the others."

Beautifully put, iforget. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

PADisters tend to forget that it it is not that I love Samak/PPP/TRT or whatever, it's just that I (and probably many others) detest the quasi-fascist views of Sondhi, and fear for the future if people like Gen Panlop are playing any key role.

Absolutely correct...well said. Nobody could possibly like Samak and his cronies but changing him for something that might involve Sondhi and Panlop is insane ! These two have an axe to grind against Taksin. This is their sole motive for subjecting the country to all this grief. Even student representatives from Thamasart and Chulalongkorn universities came out to say that they were " Bua mob ' Bored with the mob. An unusual comment coming from them ? Since it is now known that Panlop has been a behind the scenes supporter of the PAD from the begining and is the architect of some of their actions , it appears that anyone who supports PAD also supports Panlop if it is a means to an end. Hence my earlier comment to SJ and Tony et al. I would like to ask SJ and Tony, since you have previously noted Taksins human rights crimes, how you can feel comfortable supporting PAD knowing that one of their leaders has commited the same crimes ??

[blaze]

I don't think its about feudalism or whatever, its just a case that Thailand doesn't have a system of governance strong enough to contain politicians abuse of power once they are in office. Fix that problem and you would have a fairly healthy democracy.

And what kind of government would a 'fairly healthy democracy' in a country which has a vast population living on the edge of poverty yield? Would it be one amenable to the feudal elites- the corporate elites and the middle class? Or would it be one which reflects the economic and social aspirations of the poor?

[ando]

What we have here and now in Thailand is a situation where by less than 0.1% of the voters are mounting a campaign of civil unrest and violence in an effort to force their will on the other 99.9% of voters.

Your post is well-written and fairly well thought out. Why would you end it with a meaningless statistic that you can't possibly defend? The fact of the matter is that nobody really knows how many people the PAD represent.

Read the last paragraph again and you might understand. The question is not about what percentage of voters would like to see Samak and his government go or stay, but rather about what percentage of people believe strongly enough to go out on the streets in a campaign of civil disobedience and violence to force their will on others.

Approximately 38 million potential voters in Thailand. About 35 thousand PAD protesters on the streets and maybe a few thousand more unionists to back them up with industrial strikes. (Actually, the unionists have taken leave days rather than strike, -- so the public pays them to strike) You do the figures and see what they come out to.

When PAD start their antics we often hear comments here that they have massive support throughout the nation. But ask yourself, why then if they have so much support as alleged, don't they form a political party and contest the leadership through legitimate political means. The answer of course is that they have very little numerical support across the nation and would not have much of a voice in the legitimate democratic process. Its a bit like when any special interest group masses in one place, be they anti-war protesters or gay rights, when they all come out in force it looks very impressive. But only rarely are they representative of the majority. And in PADS case they are representative of only a small but very vocal minority.

When 0.1% of voters protesting on the streets over rules the wishes of the majority of voters at the ballot box, democracy is in real trouble.

[animatic]

PAD did NOT try and become a party or a government after 2006,

which would have been a perfect opportunity to do so. Why one must ask if their aim is to 'take over the country'

as many seem to imply here? Seems a stretch.

Because they wouldn't have won and might have had to try and figure out some coherent policies instead of continuing their vendetta against Thaksin and his allies.

Not being able to win the whole show doesn't stop DOZENS of parties in Thailand

from running on their little platforms.

PAD would likely not have been able to take the majority, but theu could have won seats then

and gotten likely enough to gain one cabinet post.

But they chose NOT to run.

[WISteve]

Perhaps the coalition will be giving up their leader on Sunday?

"Coalition partners propose special Parliament meeting on Sunday

Chart Thai Party leader Banharn Silapa-archa said Friday night that coalition partners wanted a special joint House-Senate meeting to be held on Sunday for MPs and senators to propose a way-out for the political crisis.

Banharn and other coalition leaders held a press conference at 10 pm to announce their common stand to call for a special House-Senate sitting.

The press conference was held after the coalition leaders, including Pracharaj Party leader Sanan Kachornprasart and Puea Pandin Party leader Suwit Khunkitti held a meeting at Banharn's house.

Banharn said the Chart Thai would not pull out of the coalition."

The Nation

Sounds like a reporter asked Khun Banharn the first question that came to my mind.

~WISteve

[Gary A]

So where do we go from here? You have a mentally unbalanced PAD leader named Sondhi and second in command Chamlong who changes his mind as well as changing sides whenever he feels that someone slighted him.

On the other hand you have a sad PPP party who made a serious mistake and appointed a stubborn old crooked thief named Samak for their leader.

To preserve the country and democracy Samak will HAVE to resign. To allow PAD to win and depose the government would be the end for the democratic system.

For those who wish to challenge my statements, I would advise you to search the Internet and read all the information you can find about the above mentioned men. You may even learn something.

[animatic]

I am trying to understand the situation. I found the following

http://socialistworker.org/2008/08/28/behi...ailand-protests

It seems to me to be a reasoned and resonable account. Would others agree?

(I have not read all 92 pages and maybe this has been mentioned already - if so sorry)

While I am for social reform and fairness,

this story, while having some facts on the mark is clearly biased

in a 'classic Socialist Worker' style.

Thailand stomped out their nascent hard left several times over the last 40 years,

after watching in distress how their direct neighbors dealt with those forces.

Quoting the Socialist Worker is not considered very good form here...

Looking a Laos now, maybe it's not so hard for westerners to disagree on that one.

Edited August 30, 2008 by animatic

[HelterSkelter]

Hmmmm...

You have a Protest leader, who owns a police station, which constantly airs free service announcements against Child Labour, against family violence, against sex slavery. A station that educates people about AIDS and other things

You have protest leaders who have been keeping large masses of people demonstrating peacefully. Protest leaders who know how to organize defensive moves to hold their ground at the government building

Lots of intelligent people supporting them....doctors, teachers, University Students, Pilots, etc....

while they are leading a peaceful, civil disobedience protest...

...and you call them bad

Then you got Samak and his corrupt government, who only got elected, because they bought the votes, who have less than 50% of voter support in Thailand (even after spending billions of Baht trying to buy it), who use force to deal with peaceful demonstrators, beating on old men and women, etc....

A government that tortures innocent hilltribe people to admit to crimes they didn't commit. An illegal government under Thai constitution, because of it's leaders being involved in vote buying..

and you they they are good????

Give me a break.

I openly support the PAD, so does my Thai wife and we are proud of it.

For 24 hour coverage of the demonstrations here is the ASTV link...

http://www.thaiDUMLOOK.tv/

I seriously doubt that you are what you claim to be.

Why do you find it necessary to post nonsense (now Samak is "torturing hill-tribe people.....") at regular intervals just to constantly post the link to ASTV?

Yae ASTV the opium of the Minorities!(Arethey Chewing Beetle Nut or something while Glued to that crap?)

KURTGRUEN: My THAI WIFE translates EVERTHING those Thugs are saying! WAKE UP and SMELL THE COFFEE MAN!!!! Sondhi and Loonie Gang ONLY Want YOUR MONEY! They Despise You and ALL of Farang who aint "CHIN"! They DON"T want Democracy.THAT is "YOUR FARANG POISON".

I have heard Him and Other PAD Leaders speak and These quotes are QUOTES!

"Motherf...ing farang Dogs". "F..king Kwai Farang Come to Thailand and Think they can Force us to elect leaders to suit their pillaging of Thai Economy"( Kwai= Buffalo =stupid)"Stupid Isan Dogs Who Voted for This and the Previous Govt""If SamaK(yes the Elect Prime minister of this nation) comes To the South WE will Kill him" Quotes From PAD ASTV and Sondhi.

KURTGRUEN: If You support Xenophobic KNOWN criminals who Hate You and ALL You stand for and Talk OPENLY about it,

They WILL take Your Business,Land,Home and Right to Be Here when they are ruling! You/ We are screwed on that day!You as many others love to be an open book and talk TOO much about that which should be private.What stops THESE thugs Near to us From Popping up and Evicting You and Your Wife? (No Tabien Ban! No Tanot No Work Visa for The Coffe shop!That's Mine and I'm Taking it! Try going to the Police They'll just laugh!)PAD IS SICK BRAIN POISON!!!I wish You see that and Save Your Plight!

[HelterSkelter]

Khun Sondhi:

...and Chamlong. A/P.

~WISteve

MAFIA? Adolf? Mussolini? Pol Pot? Mao? BURMA JUNTA?

[unomi]

Are the 'anti-PAD' ignoring the fact that the PPP should be disbanded by law?

Time is critical, the government is trying to amend the constitution to make vote-buying acceptable.

Among the amendment proposed was removal of Article 237 which would dissolve a political party if one of the executives was involved in vote buying. Yongyuth Tiyapairat, People's Power Party executive who was also the Parliament president after the election, was being tried for vote buying.[7] Yongyuth was later found guilty by the Supreme Court on July 8, 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_...e_for_Democracy

[blaze]

Hmmmm...

You have a Protest leader, who owns a police station, which constantly airs free service announcements against Child Labour, against family violence, against sex slavery. A station that educates people about AIDS and other things

You have protest leaders who have been keeping large masses of people demonstrating peacefully. Protest leaders who know how to organize defensive moves to hold their ground at the government building

Lots of intelligent people supporting them....doctors, teachers, University Students, Pilots, etc....

while they are leading a peaceful, civil disobedience protest...

...and you call them bad

Then you got Samak and his corrupt government, who only got elected, because they bought the votes, who have less than 50% of voter support in Thailand (even after spending billions of Baht trying to buy it), who use force to deal with peaceful demonstrators, beating on old men and women, etc....

A government that tortures innocent hilltribe people to admit to crimes they didn't commit. An illegal government under Thai constitution, because of it's leaders being involved in vote buying..

and you they they are good????

Give me a break.

I openly support the PAD, so does my Thai wife and we are proud of it.

For 24 hour coverage of the demonstrations here is the ASTV link...

http://www.thaiDUMLOOK.tv/

I seriously doubt that you are what you claim to be.

Why do you find it necessary to post nonsense (now Samak is "torturing hill-tribe people.....") at regular intervals just to constantly post the link to ASTV?

Yae ASTV the opium of the Minorities!(Arethey Chewing Beetle Nut or something while Glued to that crap?)

KURTGRUEN: My THAI WIFE translates EVERTHING those Thugs are saying! WAKE UP and SMELL THE COFFEE MAN!!!! Sondhi and Loonie Gang ONLY Want YOUR MONEY! They Despise You and ALL of Farang who aint "CHIN"! They DON"T want Democracy.THAT is "YOUR FARANG POISON".

I have heard Him and Other PAD Leaders speak and These quotes are QUOTES!

"Motherf...ing farang Dogs". "F..king Kwai Farang Come to Thailand and Think they can Force us to elect leaders to suit their pillaging of Thai Economy"( Kwai= Buffalo =stupid)"Stupid Isan Dogs Who Voted for This and the Previous Govt""If SamaK(yes the Elect Prime minister of this nation) comes To the South WE will Kill him" Quotes From PAD ASTV and Sondhi.

KURTGRUEN: If You support Xenophobic KNOWN criminals who Hate You and ALL You stand for and Talk OPENLY about it,

They WILL take Your Business,Land,Home and Right to Be Here when they are ruling! You/ We are screwed on that day!You as many others love to be an open book and talk TOO much about that which should be private.What stops THESE thugs Near to us From Popping up and Evicting You and Your Wife? (No Tabien Ban! No Tanot No Work Visa for The Coffe shop!That's Mine and I'm Taking it! Try going to the Police They'll just laugh!)PAD IS SICK BRAIN POISON!!!I wish You see that and Save Your Plight!

Wow. I wasn't aware of that- can anyone confirm this. I don't doubt it but this is an element that the media has not touched on- certainly not the English speaking media.

[h90]

Hmmmm...

You have a Protest leader, who owns a police station, which constantly airs free service announcements against Child Labour, against family violence, against sex slavery. A station that educates people about AIDS and other things

You have protest leaders who have been keeping large masses of people demonstrating peacefully. Protest leaders who know how to organize defensive moves to hold their ground at the government building

Lots of intelligent people supporting them....doctors, teachers, University Students, Pilots, etc....

while they are leading a peaceful, civil disobedience protest...

...and you call them bad

Then you got Samak and his corrupt government, who only got elected, because they bought the votes, who have less than 50% of voter support in Thailand (even after spending billions of Baht trying to buy it), who use force to deal with peaceful demonstrators, beating on old men and women, etc....

A government that tortures innocent hilltribe people to admit to crimes they didn't commit. An illegal government under Thai constitution, because of it's leaders being involved in vote buying..

and you they they are good????

Give me a break.

I openly support the PAD, so does my Thai wife and we are proud of it.

For 24 hour coverage of the demonstrations here is the ASTV link...

http://www.thaiDUMLOOK.tv/

I seriously doubt that you are what you claim to be.

Why do you find it necessary to post nonsense (now Samak is "torturing hill-tribe people.....") at regular intervals just to constantly post the link to ASTV?

Yae ASTV the opium of the Minorities!(Arethey Chewing Beetle Nut or something while Glued to that crap?)

KURTGRUEN: My THAI WIFE translates EVERTHING those Thugs are saying! WAKE UP and SMELL THE COFFEE MAN!!!! Sondhi and Loonie Gang ONLY Want YOUR MONEY! They Despise You and ALL of Farang who aint "CHIN"! They DON"T want Democracy.THAT is "YOUR FARANG POISON".

I have heard Him and Other PAD Leaders speak and These quotes are QUOTES!

"Motherf...ing farang Dogs". "F..king Kwai Farang Come to Thailand and Think they can Force us to elect leaders to suit their pillaging of Thai Economy"( Kwai= Buffalo =stupid)"Stupid Isan Dogs Who Voted for This and the Previous Govt""If SamaK(yes the Elect Prime minister of this nation) comes To the South WE will Kill him" Quotes From PAD ASTV and Sondhi.

KURTGRUEN: If You support Xenophobic KNOWN criminals who Hate You and ALL You stand for and Talk OPENLY about it,

They WILL take Your Business,Land,Home and Right to Be Here when they are ruling! You/ We are screwed on that day!You as many others love to be an open book and talk TOO much about that which should be private.What stops THESE thugs Near to us From Popping up and Evicting You and Your Wife? (No Tabien Ban! No Tanot No Work Visa for The Coffe shop!That's Mine and I'm Taking it! Try going to the Police They'll just laugh!)PAD IS SICK BRAIN POISON!!!I wish You see that and Save Your Plight!

:D

I don't think that Chamlong wants my money.....educate yourself about that person.

PAD will never rule, they don't intend to rule and they won't take any business, beside maybe some Thaksin has stolen before.

I know a couple of them and they are for sure not Xenophobic.....Xenophobic and opening the only english news channel (TOC)????

[h90]

Hmmmm...

You have a Protest leader, who owns a police station, which constantly airs free service announcements against Child Labour, against family violence, against sex slavery. A station that educates people about AIDS and other things

You have protest leaders who have been keeping large masses of people demonstrating peacefully. Protest leaders who know how to organize defensive moves to hold their ground at the government building

Lots of intelligent people supporting them....doctors, teachers, University Students, Pilots, etc....

while they are leading a peaceful, civil disobedience protest...

...and you call them bad

Then you got Samak and his corrupt government, who only got elected, because they bought the votes, who have less than 50% of voter support in Thailand (even after spending billions of Baht trying to buy it), who use force to deal with peaceful demonstrators, beating on old men and women, etc....

A government that tortures innocent hilltribe people to admit to crimes they didn't commit. An illegal government under Thai constitution, because of it's leaders being involved in vote buying..

and you they they are good????

Give me a break.

I openly support the PAD, so does my Thai wife and we are proud of it.

For 24 hour coverage of the demonstrations here is the ASTV link...

http://www.thaiDUMLOOK.tv/

I seriously doubt that you are what you claim to be.

Why do you find it necessary to post nonsense (now Samak is "torturing hill-tribe people.....") at regular intervals just to constantly post the link to ASTV?

Yae ASTV the opium of the Minorities!(Arethey Chewing Beetle Nut or something while Glued to that crap?)

KURTGRUEN: My THAI WIFE translates EVERTHING those Thugs are saying! WAKE UP and SMELL THE COFFEE MAN!!!! Sondhi and Loonie Gang ONLY Want YOUR MONEY! They Despise You and ALL of Farang who aint "CHIN"! They DON"T want Democracy.THAT is "YOUR FARANG POISON".

I have heard Him and Other PAD Leaders speak and These quotes are QUOTES!

"Motherf...ing farang Dogs". "F..king Kwai Farang Come to Thailand and Think they can Force us to elect leaders to suit their pillaging of Thai Economy"( Kwai= Buffalo =stupid)"Stupid Isan Dogs Who Voted for This and the Previous Govt""If SamaK(yes the Elect Prime minister of this nation) comes To the South WE will Kill him" Quotes From PAD ASTV and Sondhi.

KURTGRUEN: If You support Xenophobic KNOWN criminals who Hate You and ALL You stand for and Talk OPENLY about it,

They WILL take Your Business,Land,Home and Right to Be Here when they are ruling! You/ We are screwed on that day!You as many others love to be an open book and talk TOO much about that which should be private.What stops THESE thugs Near to us From Popping up and Evicting You and Your Wife? (No Tabien Ban! No Tanot No Work Visa for The Coffe shop!That's Mine and I'm Taking it! Try going to the Police They'll just laugh!)PAD IS SICK BRAIN POISON!!!I wish You see that and Save Your Plight!

Wow. I wasn't aware of that- can anyone confirm this. I don't doubt it but this is an element that the media has not touched on- certainly not the English speaking media.

No one can confirm that! Are complete out of context. Recall Thaksins xenophobic attacks, they were real.

[Colonel_Mustard]

Are the 'anti-PAD' ignoring the fact that the PPP should be disbanded by law?

Not ignoring it at all. However, they should be disbanded by LAW (not by mobs with no mandate) and then new elections should take place.

The PPP might wish to amend the constitution (as you state) for their own aims but the PAD also want to make changes to the constitution for the same reasons.

[unomi]

The PPP might wish to amend the constitution (as you state) for their own aims but the PAD also want to make changes to the constitution for the same reasons.

Hi Colonel,

Do you know what changes the PAD are proposing?

[Colonel_Mustard]

Taken from another forum but this seems an interesting (to me anyway) take on things:

The PAD is the creature of Sondhi Limthongku he bankrolls it; and he determines its tactics. He also bankrolled the original coup against Thaksin. He is also facing a series of convictions for criminal defamation (for which he received prison sentences, but is out on bail pending appeal). Importantly, he has no interest in restoring democracy and civil order - as he would end up bankrupt and in jail. Hence he is determined personally to prevent the Democratically elected government from estblishing a proper constitutional order - and so the unpopularity of Thaksin is a godsend to him, as he can exploit it to undermine the legal processess that otherwise would lead to his ruin.

Sondhi is a newspaper propriator, but also the most spectacular figure in the corrupt financial speculation that led to the 1997 Thai economic crash. Hence his bankruptcy. Thaksin is far from clean in all this - Sondhi Limthongkul appears to have made some sort of deal in 2001 by which his newspapers would support Thasin in his initial election campaign, in exchange for Thaksin putting pressure on the various State financial institutions, to have Sondhi's debts favourably "restructured". And it seems that Thaksin (or one of his minions) did try on something of the sort - but was spectacularly blocked by the Bank of Thailand. Thaksin then welshed on the deal, and allowed the minion involved (who was a also a crony of Sondhi) to be sacked. Sondhi promptly switched sides to whoever would support the overthrow of Thaksin, hence his backing for the 2006 coup. The junta could not simply cancel Sondhi's debts (not even in Thailand is corruption quite that blatant) but they did agree that the action to recover what he owed would not be pursued - which led to the resignation of Pridayithorn, the deputy prime minister (who had been in charge of the Bank of Thailand when the affair blew up).

Matters come to a head now because of the closure of the Assets Examination Commission (the body set up after the coup to prepare corruption charges against Thaksin). The junta rapidly realised that this compliant body could stop corruption cases, as well as to progress them; in that they could announce that they were launching a corruption enquiry into anyone, requisitiion all the evidence relating to their financial improprieties, and then sit on it. This is what they appear to have done for Sondhi, so that all the prosecution cases against him stalled. But now all the AEC files have been passed to another body - the National Counter Corruption Commision - and this is not controlled by Sondhi's cronies. Hence the cases could start up again, unless the government can be overthrown.

[Colonel_Mustard]

The PPP might wish to amend the constitution (as you state) for their own aims but the PAD also want to make changes to the constitution for the same reasons.

Hi Colonel,

Do you know what changes the PAD are proposing?

I think they have been stated throughout this thread. They couldn't implement their vision of 'new politics' without making changes.

[ozterix]

list of charges against Taksin and Samak?

I am producing a blog in French relating this story and the background information, for my friends and family who can not read English, and I would like to list the 8 + 16 charges against thaksin and the others against samak as it looks like now they won't find any way out.

I searched the forum but could not find a list, only occasionally mentions of the list

could someone point me in the right direction?

thanks

oz

[Colonel_Mustard]

list of charges against Taksin and Samak?

I am producing a blog in French relating this story and the background information, for my friends and family who can not read English, and I would like to list the 8 + 16 charges against thaksin and the others against samak as it looks like now they won't find any way out.

I searched the forum but could not find a list, only occasionally mentions of the list

could someone point me in the right direction?

thanks

oz

You might wish to include a list of charges that relate to PAD leaders too

[animatic]

If PAD wants to drive off all farangs as policy and blame us for the political situation,

how come when I go into a restaurant and the TV shows a PAD ralley

and staff AND boss are ALL glued to it, when I speak with the owner he is :

a ) More than happy to explain what's happening and enjoys my interest,

b ) Is not even slightly xenophobic and gives no hints of disliking my presence

c ) Is only showing interest in clean government and a fair shake for all.

d ) and the up country staff are happy to have a farang show interest too.

This all runs counter to the propaganda I see posted above.

Fear is a powerful tool. But fear can be counter acted by what you

actually see and feel on the ground with real people.

Edited August 30, 2008 by animatic

[Plus]

For one section of the community to prosper disproportionately and unfairly requires a large poor underclass to support their excesses. A poor underclass that must be kept in check by being kept poor and uneducated. Basically a feudal system founded on economic and political power over the poor underclass masses. Economic slavery by another name....

I have no doubt the elites would love to disenfrancise the rural poor voters and I believe it would be the end of the emerging democracy in Thailand if this were allowed to happen. It would merely strengthen their grip of political power over the peasant class.

That describes six years under TRT government very nicely, except they didn't disenfranchise the poor, they found the way to keep them under complete control. Or rather enough of them to keep TRT in power, to hel_l with all the rest, as per infamous Thaksin's remark right after the elections: "we will not provide funds to provinces that voted against TRT".

PAD wants to end this one way or another.

>>>>

Realistically, without suspending the constitution, the only way out is to dissolve the parlement and call for new elections. Replacing Samak with someone like Surapong won't change a thing.

Yesterday's meeting of coalition partners didn't produce any results, and there are no surprises there - they are not ready to go into elections yet, not enough funds to buy themselves back into power.

They, of course, haven't thought about what the country needs right now, but that's not unusual, is it?

>>>>

Thailand has fought against vote buying for ages and it hasn't got them anywhere.

What is needed is a complete structural reform that would remove the very need to buy votes.

Back in the 90s people voted for their local pooyais, no matter what party they belonged to. MPs, in turn, provided the voters with funds, infrastructure, roads etc to assure they won't lose the next elections. So we have Chart Thai lock on Suphanburi or Chidchobs on Buriram.

But WHY do these MPs need to be in Bangkok, legislating? Half the current parlament don't want to be here at all, they need to take care of their voters, not sit here and do nothing. They tried to get their hands on central government projects but they are prohibited by the current constution, they are in legislative, not executive branch.

For them running in local administrative elections is the best place to be, perhaps even running for governor, though it's completely against the tradition. Acc. to 97 constitution they should have enough funds in provincial budgets, a lot more than they can possible get now, up to 25% of all government budget.

Then came Thaksin and people would vote for him no matter whose name is on the ballot. That was a comlete swing from just a decade earlier (Thaksin, of course, has all the winning MPs in his pocket anyway, just to make sure).

Again, why would people vote for a local MP if they really want to vote for the national leader with a national agenda?

From that point of view, the national parlament and central government should be elected on "party list" results only. The criteria for party list candidates could be a lot stricter than now, especially for candidates for ministerial positions. Experience and clean history is a must.

That way people would know who they vote for to govern the country, right now Cabinet selection is completly closed process, devoid of any public input or scrutiny, and without any minimal requirements for position with enourmous responsibilities.

A setup like this will practically eliminate vote buying - MPs will be elected to do exactly what they want to and judged by the results, not

[blaze]

Hmmmm...

You have a Protest leader, who owns a police station, which constantly airs free service announcements against Child Labour, against family violence, against sex slavery. A station that educates people about AIDS and other things

You have protest leaders who have been keeping large masses of people demonstrating peacefully. Protest leaders who know how to organize defensive moves to hold their ground at the government building

Lots of intelligent people supporting them....doctors, teachers, University Students, Pilots, etc....

while they are leading a peaceful, civil disobedience protest...

...and you call them bad

Then you got Samak and his corrupt government, who only got elected, because they bought the votes, who have less than 50% of voter support in Thailand (even after spending billions of Baht trying to buy it), who use force to deal with peaceful demonstrators, beating on old men and women, etc....

A government that tortures innocent hilltribe people to admit to crimes they didn't commit. An illegal government under Thai constitution, because of it's leaders being involved in vote buying..

and you they they are good????

Give me a break.

I openly support the PAD, so does my Thai wife and we are proud of it.

For 24 hour coverage of the demonstrations here is the ASTV link...

http://www.thaiDUMLOOK.tv/

I seriously doubt that you are what you claim to be.

Why do you find it necessary to post nonsense (now Samak is "torturing hill-tribe people.....") at regular intervals just to constantly post the link to ASTV?

Yae ASTV the opium of the Minorities!(Arethey Chewing Beetle Nut or something while Glued to that crap?)

KURTGRUEN: My THAI WIFE translates EVERTHING those Thugs are saying! WAKE UP and SMELL THE COFFEE MAN!!!! Sondhi and Loonie Gang ONLY Want YOUR MONEY! They Despise You and ALL of Farang who aint "CHIN"! They DON"T want Democracy.THAT is "YOUR FARANG POISON".

I have heard Him and Other PAD Leaders speak and These quotes are QUOTES!

"Motherf...ing farang Dogs". "F..king Kwai Farang Come to Thailand and Think they can Force us to elect leaders to suit their pillaging of Thai Economy"( Kwai= Buffalo =stupid)"Stupid Isan Dogs Who Voted for This and the Previous Govt""If SamaK(yes the Elect Prime minister of this nation) comes To the South WE will Kill him" Quotes From PAD ASTV and Sondhi.

KURTGRUEN: If You support Xenophobic KNOWN criminals who Hate You and ALL You stand for and Talk OPENLY about it,

They WILL take Your Business,Land,Home and Right to Be Here when they are ruling! You/ We are screwed on that day!You as many others love to be an open book and talk TOO much about that which should be private.What stops THESE thugs Near to us From Popping up and Evicting You and Your Wife? (No Tabien Ban! No Tanot No Work Visa for The Coffe shop!That's Mine and I'm Taking it! Try going to the Police They'll just laugh!)PAD IS SICK BRAIN POISON!!!I wish You see that and Save Your Plight!

Wow. I wasn't aware of that- can anyone confirm this. I don't doubt it but this is an element that the media has not touched on- certainly not the English speaking media.

No one can confirm that! Are complete out of context....

Do you recall the context in which these statements were made?