PAD Lay Siege On Government House, NBT TV Station

[FreedomDude]

Has it been dissolved? And as things stand it has the legal mandate to change the constitution. You don't have to like that - but if we are genuinely concerned with the application of law in Thailand- then we must respect the current status of the government. Otherwise we have taken it upon ourselves to become the judges of who can govern and who can't. I'm surprised that the PAD which claims to want to bring the rule of law into government doesn't recognize this.

As things stand this is the govenment- and they have the constitutional ability to initiate changes to the constitution.

Yes, Justification Number (?) for the PAD overthrow: "They're trying to change the constitution!!!" : make no sense to me.

Every good constitution can be legally changed. There are procedures to change the constitution that should not be easy by design. Were the PPP breaking any laws in their attempt to change the constitution? I've seen no evidence that they were.

[blaze]

It's certainly no wonder why the government isn't welcome (and holds no seats) in the south. Bag, trucks and asphixiation...well I guess it got rid of those dam_n dirty protestors!

Are you refering to PAD's new leader, Gen. Pallop who slaughtered all those Moslems at the Krue Sae Mosque? No? I thought not, you all seem so quiet on that point.

Crushdepth- once the army was freed of the strangling yoke of Thaksin, what penalty was meted out to the Officer who commanded that the suspect insurgents be put in the trucks? Or was the decision that Thaksin went down there and ordered those people suffocated?

[h90]

What I dont understand is the continued talk abt whether tear gas is a weapon or not.

In any developed country, a raid of the government district surely wud hv been answered with rubber bullets and tear gas.

Imaging, protesters march on to the White House is Washington and raid it.

you are right, but I doubt that it is a sign of being developed....

WHAT? that the invasion of a government property by a group with the avowed aim of regime change would be met with force is a sign of an "Un"developed democracy?

So in a developed democracy folks intent on booting out the government, legitimized by the way, by Royal fiat, can just wander in with spiked clubs and bad pseudo-folk music and kind of take over?

I don't think so.

First of all what is government property??? It is of course owned by the people, not the government....just to clear that point.

If they would have walked into the Reichstag (Hitler) or the White house to oust Bush, how many people wouldn't have died?

Spiked clubs look bad, but how harmful are against buying votes (so that is not democratic in any way) making laws and kill thousands (war against drugs).

And not to forget the clubs were for DEFENSE not for attack

Oh no, pls dont use that comparison (Hitler, The Reichstag). It has nothing to do with todays events.

It has something to do!....an example that if people would have done something against Hitler a lot harm wouldn't be done from him. Some army in Germany thought of an military coup to remove Hitler (who was democratic elected).

There are situations in which it is necessary to brake laws or the constitution to prevent bigger harm to country or people.

Reason of edit: before the english was so bad that it was not understandable

Edited August 30, 2008 by h90

[Thaising]

What I dont understand is the continued talk abt whether tear gas is a weapon or not.

In any developed country, a raid of the government district surely wud hv been answered with rubber bullets and tear gas.

Imaging, protesters march on to the White House is Washington and raid it.

you are right, but I doubt that it is a sign of being developed....

WHAT? that the invasion of a government property by a group with the avowed aim of regime change would be met with force is a sign of an "Un"developed democracy?

So in a developed democracy folks intent on booting out the government, legitimized by the way, by Royal fiat, can just wander in with spiked clubs and bad pseudo-folk music and kind of take over?

I don't think so.

I don't mean to be rude, but it seems to me that many posters are simply unaware of the context of these protests. One of the articles of the constitution that the PPP wanted amended was article 237 concerning the dissolution of political parties that had executives involved in vote buying. As it happens, the PPP Parliament President was charged and convicted of vote buying. 

This means that the PPP is set to be dissolved, unless it can push thru the amends post haste. Hence the need of the PAD to up the ante and get them out before they can grant themselves amnesty. 

I have no idea why this isn't mentioned more often or needs explaining further. 

Spot on. in fact there is more than one constitution articles that this coalition government want to amend to save their boss.

So what?

Are you advocating government by lynch mob or government by law?

If the PAD is not advocating government by law but rather the 'decible theory of justice'- they are in no position to condemn Thaksin for not recognizing the law of the land.

Take a read on this article and you will understand more.

Enforced disappearances a blight on Thailand

By The Nation

Published on August 30, 2008

Kingdom must strengthen laws and follow global norms to protect its people from this heinous crime

Today is the International Day of the Disappeared. To mark this important day, Thailand, which has a long list of disappeared persons, must take the most courageous step of ratifying the new UN Convention for the Protection of all Persons from Enforced Disappearance. The ratification would have a positive and long-term impact on the culture of impunity that currently surrounds disappearances. It would also serve as a preventive measure to stop this heinous crime from reoccurring.

Thailand is a democracy, or so we claim, but we have yet to face the uglier side of our society - the forced disappearances that have been occurring throughout Thailand. The Working Group on Justice for Peace (WGJP) has compiled 90 cases of disappearances throughout Thailand, six of which took place last year. It is interesting to note that Kalasin, one of the poorest provinces in Thailand, has the highest number of reported cases of disappearances, violations of human rights and extrajudicial killings. The police force in the province systematically abuses its powers with impunity.

The latest and most blatant case of an enforced disappearance in Thailand occurred in February of this year in Khon Kaen, the gateway to the Indochina region. Kamol Laosophaphant, a well-to-do family man, disappeared from a police station in Khon Kaen as a result of his strong campaign against corruption within his community. Kamol knew it was dangerous to challenge the authorities and the alleged corruption in the province. Before his disappearance, he made repeated calls from the police station to confirm his location. The line was cut while he was making his final call to his family. His family hasn't heard from him since. Kamol's wife is afraid to leave her home out of concern for her safety.

Although Thailand ratified the UN Convention Against Torture last year, human-rights violations and torture during detention continue. Both security officials and the public need to be educated about the convention. The security apparatus has continued to use enforced disappearances as an instrument against suspected Malay-Muslim militants in Thailand's three southernmost provinces. Four cases were reported in 2007 in Yala's Bannang Sata district, according to WGJP. All of these cases involved military officers using force to drag people away from their homes in front of their wives and children.

Disappearances are also common in more remote parts of Thailand, such as certain areas in the North. Each year, hilltribes suffer at the hands of security forces. For instance, the Lahu hilltribes in Chiang Mai's Fang district reported 15 disappearances. Most of the cases occurred between 2003 and 2004, and the main perpetrators were said to have been members of paramilitary forces. There has not been any progress in these cases.

It is sad that authorities here have not treated enforced disappearances as heinous crimes. Although the Constitution and the penal code carry punishments for those who carry out enforced disappearances through random or other means, they contain no provisions to punish the perpetrators when a disappearance is the result of dark political forces at work. At the moment, the Office of the Attorney General and judges have recommended that Thailand go ahead with ratifying the Convention for the Protection of all Persons from Enforced Disappearance. The government should propose changes of existing laws or enact new legislation to accommodate the convention.

At the UN level, Thailand has a dark record when it comes to the issue of disappearances. The country has been noted for having made no progress in investigating its cases of disappearances since 1992. Other UN signatories that had a similarly poor record have since made progress. The fate of Thanong Po-arn, a labour leader during the 1992 Bloody May uprising, is still unknown 26 years later, not to mention that of Somchai Neelaphaijit, a Muslim human-rights lawyer, who disappeared in March, 2004. Repeated investigations have produced nothing tangible. The culprits are still walking free and enjoying their official status at police headquarters.

Each year, there are numerous cases of disappearances. So far, only Somchai's case was pursued at the court level. Other reports have not been considered. If Thailand wants to join the international community, which respects human rights and good governance, we need to ratify the new convention as soon as possible. If necessary, the country must enact new laws or amend existing ones to ensure compliance with international standards and norms.

[h90]

Has it been dissolved? And as things stand it has the legal mandate to change the constitution. You don't have to like that - but if we are genuinely concerned with the application of law in Thailand- then we must respect the current status of the government. Otherwise we have taken it upon ourselves to become the judges of who can govern and who can't. I'm surprised that the PAD which claims to want to bring the rule of law into government doesn't recognize this.

As things stand this is the govenment- and they have the constitutional ability to initiate changes to the constitution.

Yes, Justification Number (?) for the PAD overthrow: "They're trying to change the constitution!!!" : make no sense to me.

Every good constitution can be legally changed. There are procedures to change the constitution that should not be easy by design. Were the PPP breaking any laws in their attempt to change the constitution? I've seen no evidence that they were.

If you murder someone, and you have the power to change the law than it is complete OK to kill someone???

Try it with common sense.

They were found at vote buying and try to change the law so vote buying does not cause much problems for them.

It is legal....In North Korea are other things legal. In the German Empire it was legal to kill Jews.

But that does not mean that it is OK, just because it is possible by self-made laws.

[blaze]

What I dont understand is the continued talk abt whether tear gas is a weapon or not.

In any developed country, a raid of the government district surely wud hv been answered with rubber bullets and tear gas.

Imaging, protesters march on to the White House is Washington and raid it.

you are right, but I doubt that it is a sign of being developed....

WHAT? that the invasion of a government property by a group with the avowed aim of regime change would be met with force is a sign of an "Un"developed democracy?

So in a developed democracy folks intent on booting out the government, legitimized by the way, by Royal fiat, can just wander in with spiked clubs and bad pseudo-folk music and kind of take over?

I don't think so.

I don't mean to be rude, but it seems to me that many posters are simply unaware of the context of these protests. One of the articles of the constitution that the PPP wanted amended was article 237 concerning the dissolution of political parties that had executives involved in vote buying. As it happens, the PPP Parliament President was charged and convicted of vote buying. 

This means that the PPP is set to be dissolved, unless it can push thru the amends post haste. Hence the need of the PAD to up the ante and get them out before they can grant themselves amnesty. 

I have no idea why this isn't mentioned more often or needs explaining further. 

Spot on. in fact there is more than one constitution articles that this coalition government want to amend to save their boss.

So what?

Are you advocating government by lynch mob or government by law?

If the PAD is not advocating government by law but rather the 'decible theory of justice'- they are in no position to condemn Thaksin for not recognizing the law of the land.

Take a read on this article and you will understand more.

Enforced disappearances a blight on Thailand

By The Nation

Published on August 30, 2008

Kingdom must strengthen laws and follow global norms to protect its people from this heinous crime

Today is the International Day of the Disappeared. To mark this important day, Thailand, which has a long list of disappeared persons, must take the most courageous step of ratifying the new UN Convention for the Protection of all Persons from Enforced Disappearance. The ratification would have a positive and long-term impact on the culture of impunity that currently surrounds disappearances. It would also serve as a preventive measure to stop this heinous crime from reoccurring.

Thailand is a democracy, or so we claim, but we have yet to face the uglier side of our society - the forced disappearances that have been occurring throughout Thailand. The Working Group on Justice for Peace (WGJP) has compiled 90 cases of disappearances throughout Thailand, six of which took place last year. It is interesting to note that Kalasin, one of the poorest provinces in Thailand, has the highest number of reported cases of disappearances, violations of human rights and extrajudicial killings. The police force in the province systematically abuses its powers with impunity.

The latest and most blatant case of an enforced disappearance in Thailand occurred in February of this year in Khon Kaen, the gateway to the Indochina region. Kamol Laosophaphant, a well-to-do family man, disappeared from a police station in Khon Kaen as a result of his strong campaign against corruption within his community. Kamol knew it was dangerous to challenge the authorities and the alleged corruption in the province. Before his disappearance, he made repeated calls from the police station to confirm his location. The line was cut while he was making his final call to his family. His family hasn't heard from him since. Kamol's wife is afraid to leave her home out of concern for her safety.

Although Thailand ratified the UN Convention Against Torture last year, human-rights violations and torture during detention continue. Both security officials and the public need to be educated about the convention. The security apparatus has continued to use enforced disappearances as an instrument against suspected Malay-Muslim militants in Thailand's three southernmost provinces. Four cases were reported in 2007 in Yala's Bannang Sata district, according to WGJP. All of these cases involved military officers using force to drag people away from their homes in front of their wives and children.

Disappearances are also common in more remote parts of Thailand, such as certain areas in the North. Each year, hilltribes suffer at the hands of security forces. For instance, the Lahu hilltribes in Chiang Mai's Fang district reported 15 disappearances. Most of the cases occurred between 2003 and 2004, and the main perpetrators were said to have been members of paramilitary forces. There has not been any progress in these cases.

It is sad that authorities here have not treated enforced disappearances as heinous crimes. Although the Constitution and the penal code carry punishments for those who carry out enforced disappearances through random or other means, they contain no provisions to punish the perpetrators when a disappearance is the result of dark political forces at work. At the moment, the Office of the Attorney General and judges have recommended that Thailand go ahead with ratifying the Convention for the Protection of all Persons from Enforced Disappearance. The government should propose changes of existing laws or enact new legislation to accommodate the convention.

At the UN level, Thailand has a dark record when it comes to the issue of disappearances. The country has been noted for having made no progress in investigating its cases of disappearances since 1992. Other UN signatories that had a similarly poor record have since made progress. The fate of Thanong Po-arn, a labour leader during the 1992 Bloody May uprising, is still unknown 26 years later, not to mention that of Somchai Neelaphaijit, a Muslim human-rights lawyer, who disappeared in March, 2004. Repeated investigations have produced nothing tangible. The culprits are still walking free and enjoying their official status at police headquarters.

Each year, there are numerous cases of disappearances. So far, only Somchai's case was pursued at the court level. Other reports have not been considered. If Thailand wants to join the international community, which respects human rights and good governance, we need to ratify the new convention as soon as possible. If necessary, the country must enact new laws or amend existing ones to ensure compliance with international standards and norms.

And your point is? Is there a public protest demanding that ratification of the Convention for the Protection of Persons from Enforced Disappearances? If so, sign me up. And if the government is trying to reign in the paramilitary forces (then boy, I'm all for it- Good luck though. If the army has a history of marching to its own drum- I doubt that they'll have much luck taming the paras.

Edited August 30, 2008 by blaze

[animatic]

I don't mean to be rude, but it seems to me that many posters are simply unaware of the context of these protests. One of the articles of the constitution that the PPP wanted amended was article 237 concerning the dissolution of political parties that had executives involved in vote buying. As it happens, the PPP Parliament President was charged and convicted of vote buying.

This means that the PPP is set to be dissolved, unless it can push thru the amends post haste. Hence the need of the PAD to up the ante and get them out before they can grant themselves amnesty.

I have no idea why this isn't mentioned more often or needs explaining further.

Yes this IS the crux of the biscuit.

That and also saving Dr. T.'s bacon too.

But yes distacting them from the rewrite

or getting them out BEFORE the re-write

is a HUGE part of the PAD escalation.

It is onyl a few weeks before their likely are disbanded,

now or never for PPP and Dr. T. PAD knows this.

If they did manage to do this they would then run rough shod acrose the Thai people

like psycotic banshee devils crossed with sharks smelling fresh chum in the water.

[animatic]

Well the end game commences, jockeys start your engines!

PPP plans a meeting at the Penninsula Hotel

Deputy Prime Minister Surapong Suebwonglee appears at the Penninsula Hotel at about 8.30pm.

His appearance with People's Power Party members confirms an earlier report that PP will hold a meeting with coalition government. However, there is no sign of Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej.

Coalition leaders held a meeting at the Peninsula Hotel Saturday evening.

They arrived at the hotel at 7:30 pm but Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej has not arrived yet by 9 pm.

They included People Power Party secretary-general Surapong Suebwonglee, Chart Thai Party leader Banharn Silapa-archa, Pracharaj Party leader Snoh Thienthong, Matchima Tipataya Party leader Anongwan Thepsutin and Puea Pandin Party spokesman Chaiyos Jiramethakorn.

The Nation

[Crushdepth]

It is onyl a few weeks before their likely are disbanded,

now or never for PPP and Dr. T. PAD knows this.

D(issolution)-day is Tuesday 2 September. The next PPP leader might set a new record for 'the most short-lived Thai Prime Minister Ever' :-)

[animatic]

Has it been dissolved? And as things stand it has the legal mandate to change the constitution. You don't have to like that - but if we are genuinely concerned with the application of law in Thailand- then we must respect the current status of the government. Otherwise we have taken it upon ourselves to become the judges of who can govern and who can't. I'm surprised that the PAD which claims to want to bring the rule of law into government doesn't recognize this.

As things stand this is the govenment- and they have the constitutional ability to initiate changes to the constitution.

Yes, Justification Number (?) for the PAD overthrow: "They're trying to change the constitution!!!" : make no sense to me.

Every good constitution can be legally changed. There are procedures to change the constitution that should not be easy by design. Were the PPP breaking any laws in their attempt to change the constitution? I've seen no evidence that they were.

If you murder someone, and you have the power to change the law than it is complete OK to kill someone???

Try it with common sense.

They were found at vote buying and try to change the law so vote buying does not cause much problems for them.

It is legal....In North Korea are other things legal. In the German Empire it was legal to kill Jews.

But that does not mean that it is OK, just because it is possible by self-made laws.

Hear hear h90 exactly!

This was what PPP has been trying to do.

Legislate their right to do as they please to anyone they please.

[animatic]

Has it been dissolved? And as things stand it has the legal mandate to change the constitution. You don't have to like that - but if we are genuinely concerned with the application of law in Thailand- then we must respect the current status of the government. Otherwise we have taken it upon ourselves to become the judges of who can govern and who can't. I'm surprised that the PAD which claims to want to bring the rule of law into government doesn't recognize this.

As things stand this is the govenment- and they have the constitutional ability to initiate changes to the constitution.

Yes, Justification Number (?) for the PAD overthrow: "They're trying to change the constitution!!!" : make no sense to me.

Every good constitution can be legally changed. There are procedures to change the constitution that should not be easy by design. Were the PPP breaking any laws in their attempt to change the constitution? I've seen no evidence that they were.

If you murder someone, and you have the power to change the law than it is complete OK to kill someone???

Try it with common sense.

They were found at vote buying and try to change the law so vote buying does not cause much problems for them.

It is legal....In North Korea are other things legal. In the German Empire it was legal to kill Jews.

But that does not mean that it is OK, just because it is possible by self-made laws.

Hear hear h90 exactly!

This was what PPP has been trying to do.

Legislate their right to do as they please to anyone they please.

[h90]

Well the end game commences, jockeys start your engines!

PPP plans a meeting at the Penninsula Hotel

Deputy Prime Minister Surapong Suebwonglee appears at the Penninsula Hotel at about 8.30pm.

His appearance with People's Power Party members confirms an earlier report that PP will hold a meeting with coalition government. However, there is no sign of Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej.

Coalition leaders held a meeting at the Peninsula Hotel Saturday evening.

They arrived at the hotel at 7:30 pm but Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej has not arrived yet by 9 pm.

They included People Power Party secretary-general Surapong Suebwonglee, Chart Thai Party leader Banharn Silapa-archa, Pracharaj Party leader Snoh Thienthong, Matchima Tipataya Party leader Anongwan Thepsutin and Puea Pandin Party spokesman Chaiyos Jiramethakorn.

The Nation

There are rumors that a 5000 people mob from PPP try to challange the PAD to give a reason Police step in (or start with the emergency degree).

Hope that is wrong.

[animatic]

Has it been dissolved? And as things stand it has the legal mandate to change the constitution. You don't have to like that - but if we are genuinely concerned with the application of law in Thailand- then we must respect the current status of the government. Otherwise we have taken it upon ourselves to become the judges of who can govern and who can't. I'm surprised that the PAD which claims to want to bring the rule of law into government doesn't recognize this.

As things stand this is the govenment- and they have the constitutional ability to initiate changes to the constitution.

Yes, Justification Number (?) for the PAD overthrow: "They're trying to change the constitution!!!" : make no sense to me.

Every good constitution can be legally changed. There are procedures to change the constitution that should not be easy by design. Were the PPP breaking any laws in their attempt to change the constitution? I've seen no evidence that they were.

If you murder someone, and you have the power to change the law than it is complete OK to kill someone???

Try it with common sense.

They were found at vote buying and try to change the law so vote buying does not cause much problems for them.

It is legal....In North Korea are other things legal. In the German Empire it was legal to kill Jews.

But that does not mean that it is OK, just because it is possible by self-made laws.

Hear hear h90 exactly!

This was what PPP has been trying to do.

Legislate their right to do as they please to anyone they please.

[blaze]

Has it been dissolved? And as things stand it has the legal mandate to change the constitution. You don't have to like that - but if we are genuinely concerned with the application of law in Thailand- then we must respect the current status of the government. Otherwise we have taken it upon ourselves to become the judges of who can govern and who can't. I'm surprised that the PAD which claims to want to bring the rule of law into government doesn't recognize this.

As things stand this is the govenment- and they have the constitutional ability to initiate changes to the constitution.

Yes, Justification Number (?) for the PAD overthrow: "They're trying to change the constitution!!!" : make no sense to me.

Every good constitution can be legally changed. There are procedures to change the constitution that should not be easy by design. Were the PPP breaking any laws in their attempt to change the constitution? I've seen no evidence that they were.

If you murder someone, and you have the power to change the law than it is complete OK to kill someone???

Try it with common sense.

They were found at vote buying and try to change the law so vote buying does not cause much problems for them.

It is legal....In North Korea are other things legal. In the German Empire it was legal to kill Jews.

But that does not mean that it is OK, just because it is possible by self-made laws.

Do you understand the danger of endorsing a system governed by what is deemed OK as opposed to what is deemed lawful? What you and I might consider 'ok' someone else might not. Hence the need to codify 'ok' and not 'ok'. That is law. And once that is in place, we can disagree all we want- but if we claim to value 'the law' (as PAD certainly claims) then we look pretty silly behaving like a self righteous lynch mob.

[lucky2103]

What I dont understand is the continued talk abt whether tear gas is a weapon or not.

In any developed country, a raid of the government district surely wud hv been answered with rubber bullets and tear gas.

Imaging, protesters march on to the White House is Washington and raid it.

you are right, but I doubt that it is a sign of being developed....

WHAT? that the invasion of a government property by a group with the avowed aim of regime change would be met with force is a sign of an "Un"developed democracy?

So in a developed democracy folks intent on booting out the government, legitimized by the way, by Royal fiat, can just wander in with spiked clubs and bad pseudo-folk music and kind of take over?

I don't think so.

First of all what is government property??? It is of course owned by the people, not the government....just to clear that point.

If they would have walked into the Reichstag (Hitler) or the White house to oust Bush, how many people wouldn't have died?

Spiked clubs look bad, but how harmful are against buying votes (so that is not democratic in any way) making laws and kill thousands (war against drugs).

And not to forget the clubs were for DEFENSE not for attack

Oh no, pls dont use that comparison (Hitler, The Reichstag). It has nothing to do with todays events.

It has something to do!....an example that if people would have done something against Hitler a lot harm wouldn't be done from him. Some army in Germany thought of an military coup to remove Hitler (who was democratic elected).

There are situations in which it is necessary to brake laws or the constitution to prevent bigger harm to country or people.

Reason of edit: before the english was so bad that it was not understandable

I disagree with that. The crimes of Hitler are unprecedented....theres no example for this in newer history.

Als Deutscher weigere ich mich, diesen Vergleich anzuerkennen. Sitzen Österreicher und Deutsche nicht in einem Boot ?

But the whole matter has nothing to do with the current situation here in LOS, so lets move on.

[FreedomDude]

Has it been dissolved? And as things stand it has the legal mandate to change the constitution. You don't have to like that - but if we are genuinely concerned with the application of law in Thailand- then we must respect the current status of the government. Otherwise we have taken it upon ourselves to become the judges of who can govern and who can't. I'm surprised that the PAD which claims to want to bring the rule of law into government doesn't recognize this.

As things stand this is the govenment- and they have the constitutional ability to initiate changes to the constitution.

Yes, Justification Number (?) for the PAD overthrow: "They're trying to change the constitution!!!" : make no sense to me.

Every good constitution can be legally changed. There are procedures to change the constitution that should not be easy by design. Were the PPP breaking any laws in their attempt to change the constitution? I've seen no evidence that they were.

If you murder someone, and you have the power to change the law than it is complete OK to kill someone???

Try it with common sense.

They were found at vote buying and try to change the law so vote buying does not cause much problems for them.

It is legal....In North Korea are other things legal. In the German Empire it was legal to kill Jews.

But that does not mean that it is OK, just because it is possible by self-made laws.

I didn't say it was okay to buy votes. I said it is okay to try to legally change the constitution.

And do you dissolve a political party that is supported by the majority of Thailand because of some vote buying? How "extensive" must the vote buying be? Why must the rest of the party and population who supports them suffer because of the actions of a few (or more than a few probably )? Answer these quetions in court, not with a mob. What reason do you have to believe the courts can't handle the vote buying complaints? They've proven they can hand down sentences on the Thanksin family.

[Crushdepth]

QUOTE (fidelio @ 2008-08-30 18:00:07) *

Technically maybe, but practically no.

Has she ever overuled one major policy decision from one of the many prime ministers who have served her ?

Yes but she did so at least once that I know of.... many years ago intervened in Australian (Commonwealth) Politics (Constitutional Crisis) and sacked the Premier Gough Whitlam!

This was a bit before my time but in Oz its actually the Governer General (the Queen's representative) who is Head of State, and he was the guy that sacked the government. Gough is still shitty about it :-)

[blaze]

Has it been dissolved? And as things stand it has the legal mandate to change the constitution. You don't have to like that - but if we are genuinely concerned with the application of law in Thailand- then we must respect the current status of the government. Otherwise we have taken it upon ourselves to become the judges of who can govern and who can't. I'm surprised that the PAD which claims to want to bring the rule of law into government doesn't recognize this.

As things stand this is the govenment- and they have the constitutional ability to initiate changes to the constitution.

Yes, Justification Number (?) for the PAD overthrow: "They're trying to change the constitution!!!" : make no sense to me.

Every good constitution can be legally changed. There are procedures to change the constitution that should not be easy by design. Were the PPP breaking any laws in their attempt to change the constitution? I've seen no evidence that they were.

If you murder someone, and you have the power to change the law than it is complete OK to kill someone???

Try it with common sense.

They were found at vote buying and try to change the law so vote buying does not cause much problems for them.

It is legal....In North Korea are other things legal. In the German Empire it was legal to kill Jews.

But that does not mean that it is OK, just because it is possible by self-made laws.

Hear hear h90 exactly!

This was what PPP has been trying to do.

Legislate their right to do as they please to anyone they please.

Of course they have providing they operate within legal guidelines. Those are determined ultimately by courts. The very checks and balances that the PAD wants so badly to restore. Do you not see the absurdity of a group of people trying to change the government extra-constitutionally because the government is trying to constitutionally change the constitution. In other words- to illegally oust a government for legally attempting to change the law. kind of weird huh?

Not unlike (on a much smaller scale- mps in a western country voting themselves wages- and you know what- we allow them to do that. We just don't vote for them next time-

[unomi]

QUOTE (fidelio @ 2008-08-30 18:00:07) *

Technically maybe, but practically no.

Has she ever overuled one major policy decision from one of the many prime ministers who have served her ?

Yes but she did so at least once that I know of.... many years ago intervened in Australian (Commonwealth) Politics (Constitutional Crisis) and sacked the Premier Gough Whitlam!

This was a bit before my time but in Oz its actually the Governer General (the Queen's representative) who is Head of State, and he was the guy that sacked the government. Gough is still shitty about it :-)

Quite a story : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gough_Whitlam

[h90]

What I dont understand is the continued talk abt whether tear gas is a weapon or not.

In any developed country, a raid of the government district surely wud hv been answered with rubber bullets and tear gas.

Imaging, protesters march on to the White House is Washington and raid it.

you are right, but I doubt that it is a sign of being developed....

WHAT? that the invasion of a government property by a group with the avowed aim of regime change would be met with force is a sign of an "Un"developed democracy?

So in a developed democracy folks intent on booting out the government, legitimized by the way, by Royal fiat, can just wander in with spiked clubs and bad pseudo-folk music and kind of take over?

I don't think so.

First of all what is government property??? It is of course owned by the people, not the government....just to clear that point.

If they would have walked into the Reichstag (Hitler) or the White house to oust Bush, how many people wouldn't have died?

Spiked clubs look bad, but how harmful are against buying votes (so that is not democratic in any way) making laws and kill thousands (war against drugs).

And not to forget the clubs were for DEFENSE not for attack

Oh no, pls dont use that comparison (Hitler, The Reichstag). It has nothing to do with todays events.

It has something to do!....an example that if people would have done something against Hitler a lot harm wouldn't be done from him. Some army in Germany thought of an military coup to remove Hitler (who was democratic elected).

There are situations in which it is necessary to brake laws or the constitution to prevent bigger harm to country or people.

Reason of edit: before the english was so bad that it was not understandable

I disagree with that. The crimes of Hitler are unprecedented....theres no example for this in newer history.

Als Deutscher weigere ich mich, diesen Vergleich anzuerkennen. Sitzen Österreicher und Deutsche nicht in einem Boot ?

But the whole matter has nothing to do with the current situation here in LOS, so lets move on.

Well that is the reason why we shall think about it. Replace Hitler with Pol Pot if it makes it easier (because of your heritage) to accept that comparison.

The point is, that it might be a good thing to kick out an democratic (but PPP was not democratic elected) elected government against every law/constitution. So it has something to do with Thailand. PAD must kick out Samak, no matter if it is lawful or not.

No revolution ever was lawful, neither what Ghandi did nor the revolution in Romania.

[animatic]

Has it been dissolved? And as things stand it has the legal mandate to change the constitution. You don't have to like that - but if we are genuinely concerned with the application of law in Thailand- then we must respect the current status of the government. Otherwise we have taken it upon ourselves to become the judges of who can govern and who can't. I'm surprised that the PAD which claims to want to bring the rule of law into government doesn't recognize this.

As things stand this is the govenment- and they have the constitutional ability to initiate changes to the constitution.

Yes, Justification Number (?) for the PAD overthrow: "They're trying to change the constitution!!!" : make no sense to me.

Every good constitution can be legally changed. There are procedures to change the constitution that should not be easy by design. Were the PPP breaking any laws in their attempt to change the constitution? I've seen no evidence that they were.

If you murder someone, and you have the power to change the law than it is complete OK to kill someone???

Try it with common sense.

They were found at vote buying and try to change the law so vote buying does not cause much problems for them.

It is legal....In North Korea are other things legal. In the German Empire it was legal to kill Jews.

But that does not mean that it is OK, just because it is possible by self-made laws.

Hear hear h90 exactly!

This was what PPP has been trying to do.

Legislate their right to do as they please to anyone they please.

[Insight]

Just reported on Channel 7 - Samak isn't going to resign and has the full support of the PPP (according to an extremely irate wife of mine - honestly can't blame her).

[unomi]

Not unlike (on a much smaller scale- mps in a western country voting themselves wages- and you know what- we allow them to do that. We just don't vote for them next time-

You don't seem to appreciate the danger of a political party that wants to change the constitution to allow votebuying.

Are you for real? What are you going to do if your govenrment wants to change your constitution to turn your country into a police state? Well, they are entitled? 

IF the PPP were elected on a mandate to change the constitution in the manner they are doing, maybe. They never received the majority vote, they are simply the party with the largest single number of votes, on the order of 37% if I am not mistaken. 

The constitution was passed by public referendum, meaning that it needed over 50% of the vote (yes that voting process was problematic also.) So less than a year ago over 50% of the people voted FOR this constitution. Now a political party receiving some 37% of the vote (with proven vote buying occuring) that was elected in on a platform that did not include constitutional reform, is manhandling the constitution for plainly selfish reasons. 

How can you even begin to justify it? How is it that you are able to think all this through and come to the conclusion that the rule of law is best served by Mai Pen Rai? 

[h90]

Has it been dissolved? And as things stand it has the legal mandate to change the constitution. You don't have to like that - but if we are genuinely concerned with the application of law in Thailand- then we must respect the current status of the government. Otherwise we have taken it upon ourselves to become the judges of who can govern and who can't. I'm surprised that the PAD which claims to want to bring the rule of law into government doesn't recognize this.

As things stand this is the govenment- and they have the constitutional ability to initiate changes to the constitution.

Yes, Justification Number (?) for the PAD overthrow: "They're trying to change the constitution!!!" : make no sense to me.

Every good constitution can be legally changed. There are procedures to change the constitution that should not be easy by design. Were the PPP breaking any laws in their attempt to change the constitution? I've seen no evidence that they were.

If you murder someone, and you have the power to change the law than it is complete OK to kill someone???

Try it with common sense.

They were found at vote buying and try to change the law so vote buying does not cause much problems for them.

It is legal....In North Korea are other things legal. In the German Empire it was legal to kill Jews.

But that does not mean that it is OK, just because it is possible by self-made laws.

Hear hear h90 exactly!

This was what PPP has been trying to do.

Legislate their right to do as they please to anyone they please.

Of course they have providing they operate within legal guidelines. Those are determined ultimately by courts. The very checks and balances that the PAD wants so badly to restore. Do you not see the absurdity of a group of people trying to change the government extra-constitutionally because the government is trying to constitutionally change the constitution. In other words- to illegally oust a government for legally attempting to change the law. kind of weird huh?

Not unlike (on a much smaller scale- mps in a western country voting themselves wages- and you know what- we allow them to do that. We just don't vote for them next time-

If some weird dictators make some laws you don't need to follow them.

It is clear that a "law" from Pol Pot to shoot people with glasses should not been followed.

What happens in Thailand is a grey area.....that government did huge vote buying is the proxy of a criminal whos party is banned....

[RadioCityMike]

The ability and conviction to enforce laws in Thailand is a bit suspect. I can't even begin to imagine effective vote buying laws. The only thing that would happen is that they would be selectively enforced by the party in power against the other party. It is imperative that there be better methods of secret ballot. As long as the precinct leaders know who you voted for, you are subject to intimidation and/or corruption. If there was truly secret ballot, the voters would be free to vote for whomever they wanted to, irregardless of whom they had taken money from.

All of that being said, I really do not think that is the issue. The real issue is that TRT/PPP has been buying the support of the poor with welfare programs. The poor now equate democracy with welfare. Now that the precedent of aggresive demonstration and civil disobediance has been established, wait and see what kind of civil unrest you will get from the university students and the poor if you try to end democracy.

[RubbaJohnny]

Alone friendless and job about to end Chinese backers about to dump me faster than awarm turd

Boss off to Manchester as hiss moll is on the lam for a 3 year stretch in Singsing

CV

Butchering students

Lying to CNN

Bullying journalists

Celebrity Chef

I a kinda Thai Jamie Oliver/Zodiac killer combo with extra fries in fancy dress

Dictator,Chef Rent boy,yabba distribution,tuk tuk or timeshare tout

I cannot stoop as low as English teacher

All reasonable offers considered

Samk Sundarvej (aka I wonder if it's because I'm a blunderer)

[DP25]

And do you dissolve a political party that is supported by the majority of Thailand because of some vote buying?

Which party in Thailand is it that is supported by the majority of people? It certainly isn't the PPP, considering over 60% of Thais did not vote for them, and indeed voted for parties that campaigned as the opposition to them.

[Colonel_Mustard]

Not unlike (on a much smaller scale- mps in a western country voting themselves wages- and you know what- we allow them to do that. We just don't vote for them next time-

You don't seem to appreciate the danger of a political party that wants to change the constitution to allow votebuying.

Are you for real? What are you going to do if your govenrment wants to change your constitution to turn your country into a police state? Well, they are entitled? 

The proposed change won't allow vote buying as well you know. I can only assume you are trying to mislead people. The change just would not dissolve the whole party for it.

As for talk off a police state, isn't it your beloved PAD that wishes to create conditions for the army to be involved in politics with their 'new politics' ideas?

[RubbaJohnny]

Alone friendless and job about to end Chinese backers about to dump me faster than awarm turd

Boss off to Manchester as hiss moll is on the lam for a 3 year stretch in Singsing

CV

Butchering students

Lying to CNN

Bullying journalists

Celebrity Chef

I a kinda Thai Jamie Oliver/Zodiac killer combo with extra fries in fancy dress

Dictator,Chef Rent boy,yabba distribution,tuk tuk or timeshare tout

I cannot stoop as low as English teacher

All reasonable offers considered

Samk Sundarvej (aka I wonder if it's because I'm a blunderer)

Sorry maybe its becuzz Ima londener give us a job gov I m awealthy asylum sneaker

[britmaveric]

Just reported on Channel 7 - Samak isn't going to resign and has the full support of the PPP (according to an extremely irate wife of mine - honestly can't blame her).

Good news!! I'm happy Samak is standing up to the PAD - you let the PAD have their way then this will continue to happen year after year. :D