State Of Emergency Announced In Bangkok

[cmsally]

It is not always the mouthpieces that are at fault. This could very well be the case on both sides as it stands.

Quite often there are quieter strategists behind the scenes. It can be convenient to have a mouthpiece whether spouting the plot or acting as a smokescreen. Sometimes things are not always as they seem.

It is very difficult to sort rumour from truth and then on top of that sort dialogue from truth.

As far as I can see PAD would like to speed things up and the govt. slow things down but for what reason, what is the agenda. I don't think it is as simple as a sparkling new PM and govt.

[scyriacus]

I propose that we import south pole penguins and build ice factories for them to stay cool,

to replace the current government and parllement, and pay them with 2 fish per day.

To be weighed by the courts each morning. They will act more civilly and better dressed too.

thanx 'animatic' for making me laugh out loud after so many serious arguments....thanx

[kurtgruen]

Scarier than Samak, a leader on record as having advocated and condoned violence?

In 1976 as interior minister, Samak used his radio programme to stir up hatred against student demonstrators at Thammasat University, intentionally disobeying the Prime Minister's orders to "stop creating divisiveness." In defending the return of dictator Field Marshal Thanom over the radio, Samak told listeners that students demonstrating against the dictator's return were 'committing suicide'.

Flash forward to the aftermath of the 1991 coup. As Deputy Prime Minister in General Suchinda's junta, Samak justified the military's brutal suppression of pro-democracy demonstrators by declaring that the government had the right to do so as long as the United States could send troops to kill people in other countries.

Yes, thank you for those facts. Then you can add to them that today, Unions around Thailand are supporting the PAD, so are people from all walks of life. I know which side I am on. I don't like what Samak has done so far in the past and I support Unions and the average working stiff, so for me, this is a no brainer which side to pick

Anyways, off to dinner and a break. Just went out and bought a good flashlight for tonight ;-)

[h90]

I propose that we import south pole penguins and build ice factories for them to stay cool,

to replace the current government and parllement, and pay them with 2 fish per day.

To be weighed by the courts each morning. They will act more civilly and better dressed too.

thanx 'animatic' for making me laugh out loud after so many serious arguments....thanx

Thanks to animatic, that would also make Thailand to the hub of penguins, right?

[geovalin]

i distrust people with nationalist and xenophobic propaganda, with hate speech full of anger and calling the opponent subhumans, animals and their daughters prostitutes or play the envy card because they have money. after this they are surprise that they other are not open for talks.

just look at the sondhi speech to Preah Vihear. how diplomatic he set the basic and demands on his behalf and how much space he give the other side.

he just dictate, follow his orders, otherwise ....

As long as Sondhi is not in jail, I do not see how the war with Cambodia can be avoided.

He'll mastermind the crowds, lead crusade on the border. As Tej resigned there is no professional diplomats in gvt. Sondhi will create the condition of the war, Cambodia will reply to the provocations and Thai army will storm the neighbor country.

Only one solution : enforce the law, Sondhi got arrest warrants against him. His place is in jail.

[blaze]

Thai army disobeys PM's orders -- so what's new?

From Reuters: http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/id...-35315520080904

interesting little article

and depressing

Its all about what Thailand is; horses, jockeys and owners. Its just in a few years time will the relative value or psoition of each have changed? Being as vague as I can.

That's a derby I think I'll skip.

[cmsally]

Thai army disobeys PM's orders -- so what's new?

From Reuters: http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/id...-35315520080904

interesting little article

and depressing

Its all about what Thailand is; horses, jockeys and owners. Its just in a few years time will the relative value or psoition of each have changed? Being as vague as I can.

It is possible that somebody has to be reined in so that one of the horses can make it out of the starting gate.

[geovalin]

Scary isn't it. Even more scary that people are actually thinking to debate his ideas. He holds the country to ransom, and forces the people of the day to debate as though he has some amazing solution.

Cannot be more true!

[pumpuiman]

Some hypothetical questions. (I realize monitoring is not realistic, so please use your imagination and try to answer seriously)

1.Would any of the PAD supporters here accept the outcome of a referendum if it was monitored to ensure it was fair....and the questions put forward were agreed to by both the government and the PAD?

3.Do you believe Sondhi would recognize the majorities vote if it did not go in his favor?

Do you believe that Samark would recognize the majorities vote if it did not go in his favor?

yes

[kurtgruen]

Interesting interview on ASTV right now...

http://wwitv.com/portal.htm?http://wwitv.c...nnels/b2973.htm

[blaze]

Some hypothetical questions. (I realize monitoring is not realistic, so please use your imagination and try to answer seriously)

1.Would any of the PAD supporters here accept the outcome of a referendum if it was monitored to ensure it was fair....and the questions put forward were agreed to by both the government and the PAD?

3.Do you believe Sondhi would recognize the majorities vote if it did not go in his favor?

Do you believe that Samark would recognize the majorities vote if it did not go in his favor?

yes

WHat choice would he have? Maybe his supporters won't recognize the majority decision- but so what? The big players here are NOT his supporters.

[scyriacus]

.... so don't forget if sondhi, they will close all borders, no border runs. please reply and tell me simple what you know about the PAD.

you are a joker in permanent_disorder. i don't care and i don't love the pad leaders just like you. but i know and tell you that simply pad are the only people to fight peacefully against corrupt politics. if you see anyone else, please tell the forum!

[blaze]

.... so don't forget if sondhi, they will close all borders, no border runs. please reply and tell me simple what you know about the PAD.

you are a joker in permanent_disorder. i don't care and i don't love the pad leaders just like you. but i know and tell you that simply pad are the only people to fight peacefully against corrupt politics. if you see anyone else, please tell the forum!

A book was published this year and reviewed in one of the two local English papers- it tried to explain the hold that the Democrats have on the south- and yes- corruption (vote buying) was given as one (but certainly not the only) reason. Is the PAD rank and file being selective in who it deems corrupt? Or is the idea that you stop one - and all others will have learned their lesson?

I would certainly like to think that- but to be more convincing- (not that they need to convince any of us- except Thais- on this board) I'd like to see them widen their net. Would it be safe to say that most of the PAD supporters would not vote for PPP on the basis of its policies and programs alone- even if they had no reason to believe that the PPP was linked to Thaksin or involved in dirty dealings? If so, then their justice is not really all that blind.

Edited September 5, 2008 by blaze

[scyriacus]

The slain man went near the bridge that PAD occupy. This bridge is actually a public road. ....Ok you may say he had no right to venture onto a public road in Bangkok - because by right of might PAD leadership decides who can or cannot travel anywhere - The PAD demonstrators, mostly young men armed with knives, wooden clubs, golf clubs and iron bars, reinforced PAD guards, numbering about 1,000, at the bridge to protect their protest site. the UDD, which was outnumbered by the PAD, suffered casualties.....

aha mr. clausewitz (the german warrior?) you still try to insist, that the poor man went, ventured, traveled (?) alone and peaceful on a public road and was suddenly and innocently outnumbered by a mob of 1,000 bloodthirsty heavily armed young men. (your friends complained about women, grannies and babies before used as shields against violence). i simply don't buy your stories, that thousands of protesters - peaceful since many weeks - turn suddenly violent because a man traveled on a public road. how many of our readers do you think believe your tear-jerking version? what did this innocent peace-angel hold in his hands? a white dove??

[h90]

.... so don't forget if sondhi, they will close all borders, no border runs. please reply and tell me simple what you know about the PAD.

you are a joker in permanent_disorder. i don't care and i don't love the pad leaders just like you. but i know and tell you that simply pad are the only people to fight peacefully against corrupt politics. if you see anyone else, please tell the forum!

A book was published this year and reviewed in one of the two local English papers- it tried to explain the hold that the Democrats have on the south- and yes- corruption (vote buying) was given as one (but certainly not the only) reason. Is the PAD rank and file being selective in who it deems corrupt? Or is the idea that you stop one - and all others will have learned their lesson?

I would certainly like to think that- but to be more convincing- (not that they need to convince any of us- except Thais- on this board) I'd like to see them widen their net. Would it be safe to say that most of the PAD supporters would not vote for PPP on the basis of its policies and programs alone- even if they had no reason to believe that the PPP was linked to Thaksin or involved in dirty dealings? If so, then their justice is not really all that blind.

blaze I read the book.....I recommend you to read it as well.

To make the story very short: Thaksin looked at the south in which area the democrats are weakest at these spots he put an enormous amount of money for vote buying. And it happened that in some areas the Democrats figured out which people took money, spoke with them and these who are corrupt got more from the Democrats. Actually bad. But it was a kind of self-defense.

And as I always tell: there must be harder laws against vote buying no matter what side is doing it.

And Democrats are not PAD, actually they are pretty disappointed from each other.

[sriracha john]

Thai port workers stoppage causes 1.5 Billion Baht damage

BANGKOK, Sept 5 (TNA) -- Work stoppage by employees at Bangkok's Klong Toey port which began Wednesday in support of anti-government protesters demanding the ouster of the coalition government of Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej has initially caused nearly 1.5 Billion Baht in damage.

Import-Export Transport Association President Thongyoo Kongkhan said his association is suffering heavily after Port Authority of Thailand (PAT) union members stopped working and closed the port, precluding loading or unloading cargoes.

Daily damage is estimated at over 450 Million Baht with total damage approaching 1.5 Billion Baht in the first three days, accordinbg to Mr. Thongyoo.

Currently, about 4,000 containers are awaiting loading or unloading at Laem Chabang deep sea port in the eastern seaboard province of Chonburi, causing higher expenses on fuel, he said, adding that the damages exclude cancellation of orders by goods partners in overseas and delivery credibility.

The import-export group is urging the PAT labour union to open Klong Toey port within two days. If the workers fail to respond, an appeal will be lodged with the Land Transport Federation for an urgent meeting to pressure the workers to return to work, Mr. Thongyoo said.

Mr. Thongyoo said his association would join with the general public to appeal to His Majesty the King to help end political turmoil in the country.

[sriracha john]

They are COMPLETELY bypassing Samak now....

Senate Speaker mediating with Army Chief, anti-govt protesters

BANGKOK, Sept 5 (TNA) -- Senate Speaker Prasopsuk Boondej on Friday began talks with Thailand's powerful Army Chief General Anupong Paochinda and core leaders of the anti-government People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) to explore ways to end the current political turmoil which has impacted Thailand for months.

Without disclosing whom he had talked to among the core leaders of the PAD, Mr. Prasopsuk said negotiations were so far leading in a positive direction and that he believed the political crisis would end soon.

The Speaker said he would continue negotiations with parties involved in the conflict this weekend and that he would submit his conclusions at a meeting between the Senate, House of Representatives, and the opposition Democrat Party Monday at noon.

Mr. Prasopsuk said he is confident that proposals from his meetings would be acceptable to every party involved in the conflict.

Protesters loyal to the PAD who now occupy the Government House since August 26 have demanded that the coalition government resigns unconditionally.

Mr. Prasopsuk's move on peace talks came after he was appointed during his meeting with House Speaker Chai Chidchob and Democrat Party Leader Abhisit Vejjajiva early Friday to be the peace mediator to end the political turmoil which has crippled national economy.

Members of the House of Representatives are scheduled to meet next Monday and be briefed on the latest developments.

Meanwhile, more than 30 Senators on Friday told a joint press conference that the only way out to end the crisis is for Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej to dissolve the House and return power to the people.

The Senators suggested that the PAD and pro-government protesters must also end their demonstrations and monitor the election to ensure that it is conducted in a fair manner.

[h90]

The slain man went near the bridge that PAD occupy. This bridge is actually a public road. ....Ok you may say he had no right to venture onto a public road in Bangkok - because by right of might PAD leadership decides who can or cannot travel anywhere - The PAD demonstrators, mostly young men armed with knives, wooden clubs, golf clubs and iron bars, reinforced PAD guards, numbering about 1,000, at the bridge to protect their protest site. the UDD, which was outnumbered by the PAD, suffered casualties.....

aha mr. clausewitz (the german warrior?) you still try to insist, that the poor man went, ventured, traveled (?) alone and peaceful on a public road and was suddenly and innocently outnumbered by a mob of 1,000 bloodthirsty heavily armed young men. (your friends complained about women, grannies and babies before used as shields against violence). i simply don't buy your stories, that thousands of protesters - peaceful since many weeks - turn suddenly violent because a man traveled on a public road. how many of our readers do you think believe your tear-jerking version? what did this innocent peace-angel hold in his hands? a white dove??

Scyriacus: I recommend just ignore the nonsense from Klausi. Fact is the DAAD went out to beat some PAD, thinking that they meet some old women and children. But the PAD defended themself and one drunk guy died. Actually a victim of evil propaganda.

[scyriacus]

Ghandi in action....http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/O...80902104646.jpg

you are perhaps rite 'catmac' it looks as if the man on the ground behaves like gandhi and the men around him behave like the brits around the world for many hundred years (and like in abu ghraib or guantanamo). well observed! did you make this photo youself? chapeau! you are very courageous.................

[blaze]

.... so don't forget if sondhi, they will close all borders, no border runs. please reply and tell me simple what you know about the PAD.

you are a joker in permanent_disorder. i don't care and i don't love the pad leaders just like you. but i know and tell you that simply pad are the only people to fight peacefully against corrupt politics. if you see anyone else, please tell the forum!

A book was published this year and reviewed in one of the two local English papers- it tried to explain the hold that the Democrats have on the south- and yes- corruption (vote buying) was given as one (but certainly not the only) reason. Is the PAD rank and file being selective in who it deems corrupt? Or is the idea that you stop one - and all others will have learned their lesson?

I would certainly like to think that- but to be more convincing- (not that they need to convince any of us- except Thais- on this board) I'd like to see them widen their net. Would it be safe to say that most of the PAD supporters would not vote for PPP on the basis of its policies and programs alone- even if they had no reason to believe that the PPP was linked to Thaksin or involved in dirty dealings? If so, then their justice is not really all that blind.

blaze I read the book.....I recommend you to read it as well.

To make the story very short: Thaksin looked at the south in which area the democrats are weakest at these spots he put an enormous amount of money for vote buying. And it happened that in some areas the Democrats figured out which people took money, spoke with them and these who are corrupt got more from the Democrats. Actually bad. But it was a kind of self-defense.

And as I always tell: there must be harder laws against vote buying no matter what side is doing it.

And Democrats are not PAD, actually they are pretty disappointed from each other.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same book- but regardless- my point was that if corruption in politics is to be denounced- then it must be universally denounced- not selectively- and certainly it can't run the risk of appearing as a smokescreen to mask antipathy to one party or another.

It would be much more convincing were some of the PAD to say unequivocally that the best leader that this country ever had was Thaksin S- that the most constructive policies that have ever been developed in Thailand were TRT's. BUT that due to Thaksin's incorrigibly corrupt nature, the PAD MUST persevere, on principle, of bringing him and all associated with him down. (yes, I know a few have said that- but the majority seem to despise his policies as well as his character).

Having spoken with a few PAD supporters- there is a kind of coincidence wherein 'populist policies' and corruption are deemed equally odious. Making one wonder- is it the case that the opposition to populism masks a deeper opposition to corruption? OR rather, that opposition to TRT/PPP corruption masks a deeper opposition- to populist policies. Or is it just all coincidence?

(edited to correct- we ARE talking about the same book- just reread the review)

Edited September 5, 2008 by blaze

[h90]

Thai port workers stoppage causes 1.5 Billion Baht damage

BANGKOK, Sept 5 (TNA) -- Work stoppage by employees at Bangkok's Klong Toey port which began Wednesday in support of anti-government protesters demanding the ouster of the coalition government of Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej has initially caused nearly 1.5 Billion Baht in damage.

Import-Export Transport Association President Thongyoo Kongkhan said his association is suffering heavily after Port Authority of Thailand (PAT) union members stopped working and closed the port, precluding loading or unloading cargoes.

Daily damage is estimated at over 450 Million Baht with total damage approaching 1.5 Billion Baht in the first three days, accordinbg to Mr. Thongyoo.

Currently, about 4,000 containers are awaiting loading or unloading at Laem Chabang deep sea port in the eastern seaboard province of Chonburi, causing higher expenses on fuel, he said, adding that the damages exclude cancellation of orders by goods partners in overseas and delivery credibility.

The import-export group is urging the PAT labour union to open Klong Toey port within two days. If the workers fail to respond, an appeal will be lodged with the Land Transport Federation for an urgent meeting to pressure the workers to return to work, Mr. Thongyoo said.

Mr. Thongyoo said his association would join with the general public to appeal to His Majesty the King to help end political turmoil in the country.

that 1.5 Billion damage sounds like nonsense. Most container are not super urgent. I don't know how much is the value of the products which will be exchanged there?

[sriracha john]

Coming from Thaksin's Home Town News....

Northern People’s Network Joins Call for Resignation of PM Samak

A network of northerners is the latest to join a chorus to call for the resignation of the prime minister and his Cabinet, as well as for the state of emergency in Bangkok to be cancelled.

A group of protesters calling themselves the Social Network for Northern Reconciliation have been rallying in the center of Chiang Mai Province, to call for peace after the violent clash between the Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship and the People's Alliance for Democracy on Monday night in the capital, which left one dead and more than 40 people injured.

They erected a black banner with a statement suggesting that Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej step down, cancel the state of emergency in Bangkok, and launch a political reform with more public participation. The protesters have set up in the middle of the bustling Naowarat Bridge in central Chiang Mai.

In addition, the demonstrators took a minute to stand still and release black balloons to reflect their plea for peace and reconciliation as well as an end to violence.

Meanwhile, communication arts academics from various educational institutes in Chiang Mai joined a seminar to discuss the role of the press amid heightened political conflict in the country.

Associate Professor Sodsri Paoinchan, Dean of the Communication Arts Faculty at Chiang Mai University, said that journalists and members of the press should be able to work with freedom and do their work in an unbiased manner.

She said that even though a state of emergency is now in effect in Bangkok, the media should not let it get in their way and should try to present all the facts and information to the public.

The seminar also discussed the work of the government-run NBT, with all participants agreeing that the state broadcaster must act as a news media, not as a political tool to attack opponents or instigate conflict that could eventually lead to widespread violence.

They stated that the media has a duty to always be ethical and the government should not compare NBT to private outlets such as ASTV, as the state broadcaster is tasked to provide only accurate and neutral reports under all circumstances.

- TOC / today

Edited September 5, 2008 by sriracha john

[scyriacus]

name='permanent_disorder' post='2192680' date='2008-09-04 10:29:35' cannot be more true. Anyway, Thai people ... are so excited and so frustrated that only a war could calm them.

bonjour 'geovalin'. you "are so excited and so frustrated". what would calm you?

[sriracha john]

But what if those responsible for the 'telegraphing' would rather telegraph alarmist interpretations which would suggest that the anti-Christ has been unleashed?

Further confirmation of the approaching Apocalypse...

Rain, hail bombarding PAD

Strong wind and heavy rain together with hail halted the mass anti-government demonstration of the People’s Alliance for Demonstration (PAD) at Government House on Friday evening. Many protesters were soaked as strong wind snapped their tents, and many areas in the government compound were inundated. The group's key members had to postpone their anti-government speeches. The unconditional weather forced people demonstrating outside Government House including the street vendors into nearby

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=130427

[scyriacus]

....categorically- as fact- that the PPP has a hand in her decision- is disgusting.

who? -do you think- had a hand in the poor dead man's decision to go on a rampage against peaceful protesters with a machete perhaps as his best argument? where did he come from? why did he come to bkk? not a single clue? can anybody on the forum please tell us about his innocent intentions. the poor family can really need a few excuses instead of wild accusations.....

[Kerryd]

Further confirmation of the approaching Apocalypse...

Rain, hail bombarding PAD

Hail ?

Isn't that a bit unusual for Thailand, even in the winter season ?

Edited September 5, 2008 by Kerryd

[h90]

.... so don't forget if sondhi, they will close all borders, no border runs. please reply and tell me simple what you know about the PAD.

you are a joker in permanent_disorder. i don't care and i don't love the pad leaders just like you. but i know and tell you that simply pad are the only people to fight peacefully against corrupt politics. if you see anyone else, please tell the forum!

A book was published this year and reviewed in one of the two local English papers- it tried to explain the hold that the Democrats have on the south- and yes- corruption (vote buying) was given as one (but certainly not the only) reason. Is the PAD rank and file being selective in who it deems corrupt? Or is the idea that you stop one - and all others will have learned their lesson?

I would certainly like to think that- but to be more convincing- (not that they need to convince any of us- except Thais- on this board) I'd like to see them widen their net. Would it be safe to say that most of the PAD supporters would not vote for PPP on the basis of its policies and programs alone- even if they had no reason to believe that the PPP was linked to Thaksin or involved in dirty dealings? If so, then their justice is not really all that blind.

blaze I read the book.....I recommend you to read it as well.

To make the story very short: Thaksin looked at the south in which area the democrats are weakest at these spots he put an enormous amount of money for vote buying. And it happened that in some areas the Democrats figured out which people took money, spoke with them and these who are corrupt got more from the Democrats. Actually bad. But it was a kind of self-defense.

And as I always tell: there must be harder laws against vote buying no matter what side is doing it.

And Democrats are not PAD, actually they are pretty disappointed from each other.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same book--I have it upstairs somewhere I can tell the name if important--- but regardless- my point was that if corruption in politics is to be denounced- then it must be universally denounced- --100 % agree--not selectively- and certainly it can't run the risk of appearing as a smokescreen to mask antipathy to one party or another.--complete agree, fact is that almost everywhere in the south people simply vote for Democrats, so why invest money and since the Democrats told all the time how evil TRT with vote buying is and how silly the people in Isaan to vote for them. So now the Democrats actually blocking themselves from vote buying. Of course in some areas it is different and that should be investigated and punished.--

It would be much more convincing were some of the PAD to say unequivocally that the best leader that this country ever had was Thaksin S- that the most constructive policies that have ever been developed in Thailand were TRT's. --I don't know all the leaders in detail, but from these I know I would take Chuan after 1997. It was much easier later for Thaksin with Thailand in good situation to make some good things. But I agree the first 2 years of Thaksin were OK and a lot good ideas.....than it got worse and worse.....recall the end....xenophobic, hub of this hub of that, making problems everywhere, revenue department against mum and pap shops.....farang dive center are bad, etc etc--

BUT that due to Thaksin's incorrigibly corrupt nature, the PAD MUST persevere, on principle, of bringing him and all associated with him down. (yes, I know a few have said that- but the majority seem to despise his policies as well as his character).--and he acted like a dictator undermine everything, he was not only corrupt, he made the country HIS country--

Having spoken with a few PAD supporters- there is a kind of coincidence wherein 'populist policies' and corruption are deemed equally odious. Making one wonder- is it the case that the opposition to populism masks a deeper opposition to corruption? OR finally, that opposition to TRT/PPP corruption masks a deeper opposition- to populist policies. Or is it just all coincidence?--Well yes many people do: mix everything together shake it and serve it. His strongest points were that there was no one else who can explain something. Look at the democrats in compare to Thaksin. If they want to do something good for Isaan people, it is a 100 page education concept which they don't explain (which makes it also more likely to fail), while Thaksin tells "1 village 1 million". Why can't the democrats put there nice ideas in some simple sentences? Some people may think because out of arrogance.--

Edited September 5, 2008 by h90

[JoeInSurin]

But what if those responsible for the 'telegraphing' would rather telegraph alarmist interpretations which would suggest that the anti-Christ has been unleashed?

Further confirmation of the approaching Apocalypse...

Rain, hail bombarding PAD

Strong wind and heavy rain together with hail halted the mass anti-government demonstration of the People's Alliance for Demonstration (PAD) at Government House on Friday evening. Many protesters were soaked as strong wind snapped their tents, and many areas in the government compound were inundated. The group's key members had to postpone their anti-government speeches. The unconditional weather forced people demonstrating outside Government House including the street vendors into nearby

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=130427

Karma?

[sriracha john]

Further confirmation of the approaching Apocalypse...

Rain, hail bombarding PAD

Hail ?

Isn't that a bit unusual for Thailand, even in the winter season ?

no Apocalypse is complete without it...

[blaze]

....categorically- as fact- that the PPP has a hand in her decision- is disgusting.

who? -do you think- had a hand in the poor dead man's decision to go on a rampage against peaceful protesters with a machete perhaps as his best argument? where did he come from? why did he come to bkk? not a single clue? can anybody on the forum please tell us about his innocent intentions. the poor family can really need a few excuses instead of wild accusations.....

Slow down- I never discussed his motivations- or his own responsibility- but since you bring it up- I agree- anyone who goes to a scene as volatile as this was (OR setting up a PAD demo in the heartland of PPP) has to take a large part of the responsibility for what befalls them- and I think that those who urge them on also deserve a good part of the blame.