It's Been Two Years

[Balls]

Dear Associates,

Body: This land was purchased, in my GF’s name. I love the plot and I’m ready to build. However, I need definitive reassurance on the investment , that can be had; I’m told (relatively speaking, of course). GF and her family are expendable, (again, relatively speaking.)

According to an article included in an issue of Hua Hin Today (Jan 2006),

Most foreigners who “own” land and houses – as apposed to condos, which can be owned outright – go for a leasehold agreement of typically 30 years, with two prepaid 30-year renewals. The lease will include clauses that automatically allow freehold ownership if the laws of foreign ownership change in the future, and the right to sell or transfer the property.

Referring to the leasehold agreement, the article insists “…don’t draw it up yourself.” There is much more information in the article but the leasehold agreement is the main objective of this post and plea for advice. “…don’t draw it up yourself.”

My Question:

My attorney (young and perhaps inexperienced in this field), shied away from answering my direct question which was… Can I get a copy of, or sample of a ‘typical’ leasehold agreement?

Certainly, there are other ‘issues’ but this is the most prevalent at this time. Please help if you can.

This is my fourth atttempt at posting. Can this be easier?

[LennyW]

Get a more experienced attorney that will carry out your instructions as requested!!

[lannarebirth]

I would encourage you to read this website from front to back:

http://www.samuiforsale.com/

They have some sample contracts you can view and purchase (quite inexpensively IMO), here:

http://www.samuiforsale.com/Example_Contracts.html

[DisainaM]

its all a question, whats in the chanot,

have you done your homework first,

like

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/superficies_thailand.html

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/superficies_law_text.html

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/sample_te...uperficies.html

[LoveDaBlues]

Find a Thai that speaks good English and pay them to translate for you at the Land Office. Have the GF give you a 'Usufruct'; NOT A LEASE. Costs I think varies but I paid 50 baht in Udon Thani.

Make sure the Thai person doing the translation knows the Thai word for 'Usufruct' BEFORE heading off to the land office.

[binnsy]

Hi i made the mistake of building in the wifes village if i was to do it all again i would RENT and see how the land lies.

[stgrhe]

Dear Associates,

Body: This land was purchased, in my GF's name. I love the plot and I'm ready to build. However, I need definitive reassurance on the investment , that can be had; I'm told (relatively speaking, of course). GF and her family are expendable, (again, relatively speaking.)

According to an article included in an issue of Hua Hin Today (Jan 2006),

Most foreigners who "own" land and houses – as apposed to condos, which can be owned outright – go for a leasehold agreement of typically 30 years, with two prepaid 30-year renewals. The lease will include clauses that automatically allow freehold ownership if the laws of foreign ownership change in the future, and the right to sell or transfer the property.

Referring to the leasehold agreement, the article insists "…don't draw it up yourself." There is much more information in the article but the leasehold agreement is the main objective of this post and plea for advice. "…don't draw it up yourself."

My Question:

My attorney (young and perhaps inexperienced in this field), shied away from answering my direct question which was… Can I get a copy of, or sample of a 'typical' leasehold agreement?

Certainly, there are other 'issues' but this is the most prevalent at this time. Please help if you can.

This is my fourth atttempt at posting. Can this be easier?

You have basically three options:

1. Lease the land from your wife for 30 years. This is the maximum time for which you can register a land lease. The disadvantage is that any extension deal for +30 +30 years is a private deal between you and your wife. The advantage with a land lease is that your leaseright can be inherited.

2. Register a Usufruct for life. This will grant you possession of the land until you pass away. The advantage is that you are protected until it is time for you to go but the disadvantage is that the usufruct right cannot be inherited.

3. Draw up a contract with your wife which states that she owes you money and register that as a mortage on the land in your favour. Your name will then be registered on the chanote and your wife cannot sell the land unless you sign the chanote. This is how the banks are protecting their rights when lending money with the land as security.

[Balls]

To the seven people who responded to my post "It's been two years"... Thank you all very much. There were several web sites mentioned and reviewing them at a glance, they should help make me for aware of what I need. Yes, I will do more homework, as I was not very familiar with the word 'chanot' and had never heard of a 'Usufruct'.

I'll post again when I am more familiar. However, I must repeat - there are other issues. The first being that this property doesn't fall under the "run of the mill' real estate. The property is within the bounds of a "King's Project". From what I was told at this 'special' land office (not a "regular land office" - was that my GF and I "bought the rights to lease the land from the King's Project".

The people at this office, in Chumpon (the land is in Chumpon Province) don't speak much English. The only lawyer my GF could come up with couldn't speak a word of it.

Do any of you know the terms of such real estate? As far as I can tell, the terms Chanot, Nor Sor Sam, Nor Sor Sam Kor or Tor Bor's don't mean a thing to this office.

'King's Project' anybody have a thread? I don't have a clue on how to search (for anything) via computer. Precicely why I am asking you folks for help and put up with the bit of mild critizim I receive.

Thank you all again.

[Khun Jean]

wrong topic sorry.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Khun Jean

[basjke]

Dear Associates,

Body: This land was purchased, in my GF's name. I love the plot and I'm ready to build. However, I need definitive reassurance on the investment , that can be had; I'm told (relatively speaking, of course). GF and her family are expendable, (again, relatively speaking.)

According to an article included in an issue of Hua Hin Today (Jan 2006),

Most foreigners who "own" land and houses – as apposed to condos, which can be owned outright – go for a leasehold agreement of typically 30 years, with two prepaid 30-year renewals. The lease will include clauses that automatically allow freehold ownership if the laws of foreign ownership change in the future, and the right to sell or transfer the property.

Referring to the leasehold agreement, the article insists "…don't draw it up yourself." There is much more information in the article but the leasehold agreement is the main objective of this post and plea for advice. "…don't draw it up yourself."

My Question:

My attorney (young and perhaps inexperienced in this field), shied away from answering my direct question which was… Can I get a copy of, or sample of a 'typical' leasehold agreement?

Certainly, there are other 'issues' but this is the most prevalent at this time. Please help if you can.

This is my fourth atttempt at posting. Can this be easier?

You have basically three options:

1. Lease the land from your wife for 30 years. This is the maximum time for which you can register a land lease. The disadvantage is that any extension deal for +30 +30 years is a private deal between you and your wife. The advantage with a land lease is that your leaseright can be inherited.

2. Register a Usufruct for life. This will grant you possession of the land until you pass away. The advantage is that you are protected until it is time for you to go but the disadvantage is that the usufruct right cannot be inherited.

3. Draw up a contract with your wife which states that she owes you money and register that as a mortage on the land in your favour. Your name will then be registered on the chanote and your wife cannot sell the land unless you sign the chanote. This is how the banks are protecting their rights when lending money with the land as security.

Good Advice but I would like to add that a 30 year lease and a mortgage cannot be registered together on the same land.However you can register a mortgage and take a lease of maximum 3 years at a time which doesn't requires to be registered.

Also keep in mind that with a usufruct you might have a "reason" to pass away.

[Farma]

Balls see if you can find some more details on the “Kings Project” point and what department manages the lease.

Below are 2 possibilities.

1. The land is officially leased land from a government department. In my experience these leases are renewed every 3 years. Similar to paying rent to the government department. A copy of the lease is easily obtained from the department leasing the land.

This is common situation in a lot of provincial cities, along rail lines and other places the government has large tracts of unused land. The government allows large commercial developments and private buildings to be built on the understanding it will be a renewable long term lease renewed every 3 years. Some of these leased areas have been like this for generations.

One of the buildings my wife owns is on this type of lease. The majority of the main business district including a large supermarket in the provincial city where we live is built on this type of leased land. As it was her money used for the purchase I didn’t have my name associated so can’t help on how to have the building ownership in your name.

My wife's purchase of the building from the developer involved the government department with the building ownership transfer and lease transfer signed in the government office. Every 3 years my wife pays a few thousand Baht to the government department and the lease renewed for another 3 years. It’s all legal and above board.

or

2. It could be land that doesn’t have a title to purchase legally. You actually buy the right to occupy the land from a previous occupier who was probably squatting anyway.

I experienced this earlier this year when looking for a plot near the Chong Mek border. There are shops built along the road leading to the border that are built on government land and a blind eye is turned.

We were offered a nice plot but quickly turned it down once we knew the real facts on who actually owned the land. We were being offered squatters rights by a squatter who didn’t have a lease on the land. Apparently this is quite common deal amongst the local Thais.

If the “Kings project” is in situation 2 it may explain why the attorney shied away from answering your question although it sounds like the land is in situation 1.

Edited to add.

In situation 1

This type of building and land lease will not be accepted by banks as collateral for a loan.

If the building ownership is transferred the lease period transfers to the new owner with the original remaining period of lease intact. I.E. If the lease was up for renewal in 1 year, the purchaser needs to renew that lease after 1 year.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Farma

[Balls]

Wow, I sure get confused with this posting and tracking - I'd better study up. It seems to take me an hour to find my last post and look for replys. However, getting back to the 'King's Project' land...

This particular department's office might be described as the 'development' office for the project. Here's what little I know at the moment.

The plans for all of the structures/building that are going to be built must be submitted and approved by this department before any building is done. You must start building within one year or go through the hassel and costs of resubmittal.

The Chief Engineer related to me that the project is for single family homes and will not allow guesthouses, hotels or other businesses etc. The plans must be pretty complete and signed by a registered architect.

The lease (from this department - not much money) can be from one to three years.

There are a other few foreigners there now but their level of English isn't helpful.

I just realized that my GF has the phone number of the office or at least the cell phone of one of the employees. I will ask my attorney to call down there (Chumpon Province) and ask what is the norm for that kind of property.

I was leaning toward a Usufruct or lease but - as one of the other responders to my post mentioned, One or the other may not be "accepted" by this department. So we will see.

My GF has ties in Chiang Mai so I don't expect her to move to Chumpon. This is propbably the main reason I chose Chumpon. I want to escape from her but the land is already in her name. Either way, I'm going to bail out of the relationship - with or without the lease.

For Farma and stgrhe, Thanks for your help. I do wish I had done this posting before but it's not as if I've never made a mistake in the past.