Financial Crisis

[Abrak]

terribly sorry Flying but i can't help it that a non-native english speaker (like me) has to tell you that YOU should check your spelling. hhgz's vowel spelling is correct assuming he is an American and therefore does not double consonants. come to think of it... even some Brits are not doubling consonants.

You have been listening to too much American propaganda. Americans do whatever they like and then come up with some excuse as to why it is correct. So while a 'no double consonant rule' might work for why the US misspells 'misspell' as 'mispell' (you would still (possible stil USA) expect it to be 'mispel'). Worst of all, American spelling is so unskilful, that they are happy to spell 'skilful', 'skillful' and throw in an extra consonant.

Mind you, about the only words in English that have 'aa' in them are followed by an 'r' such as 'aardvark'.

[flying]

"why spoil a shitty story which the boys like with facts? "

None back peddled

YOU should check your spelling.

Kor Tort the irony of it apologies to both you & hhgz for that

Yet amazing that you still pick the minutia & miss the point.

He was quoting you initially who was also wrong.

Edited December 20, 2009 by flying

[sokal]

"why spoil a shitty story which the boys like with facts? "

None back peddled

YOU should check your spelling.

Kor Tort the irony of it apologies to both you & hhgz for that

Yet amazing that you still pick the minutia & miss the point.

He was quoting you initially who was also wrong.

This is sure getting annoying. Gold stocks are fundamentally undervalued and I want to jump in but I have a feeling that there will be a general market selloff in 2010 that will bring gold stocks down with it. Although I don't think gold bullion will go down with the selloff. Looking at the chart below, it is obvious what happened and we have Naam and Banana Ben telling us that commercial real estate will be fine in 2010 so that is a guarantee that it will implode and bring stocks down in 2010. If gold stocks will decouple is the million ounce question.

[Naam]

terribly sorry Flying but i can't help it that a non-native english speaker (like me) has to tell you that YOU should check your spelling. hhgz's vowel spelling is correct assuming he is an American and therefore does not double consonants. come to think of it... even some Brits are not doubling consonants.

You have been listening to too much American propaganda. Americans do whatever they like and then come up with some excuse as to why it is correct. So while a 'no double consonant rule' might work for why the US misspells 'misspell' as 'mispell' (you would still (possible stil USA) expect it to be 'mispel'). Worst of all, American spelling is so unskilful, that they are happy to spell 'skilful', 'skillful' and throw in an extra consonant.

Mind you, about the only words in English that have 'aa' in them are followed by an 'r' such as 'aardvark'.

that might be correct but my remark "doubling" did not refer to vowels but consonants, i.e. hhgz'a "backpedaling" compared to "backpedalling". referring to vowels it was Flying's "back peddling".

that Americans make their own rules is well known. once i wrote in Thaivisa "i am focussing on..." and a wellknown TV "pollster" and "baht bus lover" saw the syllables "cussing" and chided me for my "mistake"

[Naam]

we have Naam and Banana Ben telling us that commercial real estate will be fine in 2010

Naam never told anybody that commercial real estate will be "fine" and to the best of Naam's knowledge Mr. Bernanke never mentioned something like that. moreover, when Naam (who is a global investor) refers or has an opinion on economic topics it is not limited to the "Greatest Nation on Earth™" but to the global situation. that some people have only a limited command of the english language, make wrong quotes and arrive at wrong conclusions is not Naam's problem

[midas]

get the fàck real man and roll off your rubber sheet (which is soaking wet and might spoil your mattress)!

Who are you telling to “ get the fàck real “ Naam ?

i am telling YOU!

Maybe you want to tell law professor Brent White to “get the fàck real man and roll

off your rubber sheet “ as well ?

Here in this CNBC interview Professor White advises 15 million homeowners ( that is one third of all US

homeowners ) about the financial sense of initiating a “strategic default “ on their mortgage.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/video...b=Market%20News

What recovery in the housing market ?

Edited December 21, 2009 by midas

[midas]

we have Naam and Banana Ben telling us that commercial real estate will be fine in 2010

Naam never told anybody that commercial real estate will be "fine" and to the best of Naam's knowledge Mr. Bernanke never mentioned something like that. moreover, when Naam (who is a global investor) refers or has an opinion on economic topics it is not limited to the "Greatest Nation on Earth™" but to the global situation. that some people have only a limited command of the english language, make wrong quotes and arrive at wrong conclusions is not Naam's problem

But Naam cant tell the difference between " advertorials " and economic statistics

[teletiger]

To anybody who feels the internal moral struggle of whether to renage on their underwater (or not) mortgage, loan, credit card etc, here's a sound piece of advice from no less than Morgan Stanley. Do it, we just did to the tune of $1.8 billion.

Morgan Stanley Abandons 5 San Francisco Office Towers

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/morgan-st...o-office-towers

Regards.

[midas]

To anybody who feels the internal moral struggle of whether to renage on their underwater (or not) mortgage, loan, credit card etc, here's a sound piece of advice from no less than Morgan Stanley. Do it, we just did to the tune of $1.8 billion.

Morgan Stanley Abandons 5 San Francisco Office Towers

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/morgan-st...o-office-towers

Regards.

Interesting tele ! There is no moral struggle in doing this because there are no morals any more

And that is exactly why Brent White is " lecturing " Joe Citizen to walk away as well.

The rules have completely changed for everyone .Even The White House has blatantly disregarded the US Constitution

several times and continues to do so regarding health care reform so why the hel_l should only Main street stick to the rules

Edited December 21, 2009 by midas

[Naam]

not paying your debt when you are able to pay is FRAUD! in my country and a lot of others you are either forced to pay or you go to prison. period!

of course my [not so] humble opinion seems to differ from those who paid for rice fields and think (in their wet dreams) they own them. they can only hope that they are not dealt with in the same fraudulent manner which they recommend to others.

[flying]

not paying your debt when you are able to pay is FRAUD! in my country and a lot of others you are either forced to pay or you go to prison. period!

of course my [not so] humble opinion seems to differ from those who paid for rice fields and think (in their wet dreams) they own them. they can only hope that they are not dealt with in the same fraudulent manner which they recommend to others.

Actually in the US the mortgages clearly state that you pay & if you dont your in default.

The deal is they made a mortgage if you pay fine if you dont they get the house.

Some states allow the bank to try & get a judgement for the difference.....But these states are non recourse.

Nothing to stop folks from walking on loans made to them when the banks clearly could see the payments were well beyond the ratio of payment to income that they should have allowed. Casinos win & casinos lose. Simple as that.

Which is why in the big S&L mess the term jingle mail was coined as so many just mailed back the keys.

Alaska

Arizona

Arkansas

California

Colorado

District of Columbia (Washington DC)

Georgia

Hawaii

Idaho

Mississippi

Missouri

Montana (as long as non-judicial foreclosure is used)

Nevada - note that the lender CAN get a deficiency judgment (See below)

New Hampshire

Oregon

Tennessee

Texas (but even in a non-judicial foreclosure, the lender can pursue a deficiency judgment)

Virginia

Washington

West Virginia

These are states that also allow non-judicial foreclosure, and/or where non-judicial foreclosure is more common and deficiency judgments can be obtained more easily:

Michigan

Minnesota

North Carolina

Rhode Island

South Dakota

Utah

Wyoming

Edited December 22, 2009 by flying

[flying]

China warns Obama deficit spending must stop

Beijing reluctant to keep bankrolling president's belt-buster budget

[midas]

not paying your debt when you are able to pay is FRAUD! in my country and a lot of others you are either forced to pay or you go to prison. period!

of course my [not so] humble opinion seems to differ from those who paid for rice fields and think (in their wet dreams) they own them. they can only hope that they are not dealt with in the same fraudulent manner which they recommend to others.

Your opinion IS VERY HUMBLE because its WRONG regarding US home mortgages

( As flying pointed out. )

Please do your homework and get your facts straight.

[midas]

Some states allow the bank to try & get a judgement for the difference.....But these states are non recourse.

Nothing to stop folks from walking on loans made to them when the banks clearly could see the payments were well beyond the ratio of payment to income that they should have allowed. Casinos win & casinos lose. Simple as that.

And isn't it the case that in many instances they cant even prove to the court who the is the mortgagee ( i.e. cant produce the papers )

[flying]

Some states allow the bank to try & get a judgement for the difference.....But these states are non recourse.

Nothing to stop folks from walking on loans made to them when the banks clearly could see the payments were well beyond the ratio of payment to income that they should have allowed. Casinos win & casinos lose. Simple as that.

And isn't it the case that in many instances they cant even prove to the court who the is the mortgagee ( i.e. cant produce the papers )

Well we are hearing of that problem more & more these days.

It is a electronic mortgage title recording method that is fairly new.

Before it always went through a proper escrow & title recording at the courts.

Now there is a kink in the chain

Also............

The MERS edifice is apparently beginning to unravel. At least five court decisions, including opinions by the Kansas and Arkansas Supreme Courts, a Federal Bankruptcy Court in Nevada, a California trial court, and an Indiana Appellate Court, have found against MERS claims related to collection of loans following foreclosure sales, often leaving a second mortgage holder out tens of thousands of dollars. The problem is the presence of the MERS name on mortgage documents as a nominee or representative of the mortgagee, and the legal failure of MERS itself to retain any interest in the proceedings in its function as a mere database. Also the fact that transfer of ownership of the mortgage or DoT was not legally recorded as most states’ laws require.

http://blog.uslegal.com/2009/10/mortgage-e...legal-meltdown/

MERS "chain-of-custody" issues preventing foreclosures.

The Mers Fifty Million Mortgage Meltdown

[midas]

To anybody who feels the internal moral struggle of whether to renage on their underwater (or not) mortgage, loan, credit card etc, here's a sound piece of advice from no less than Morgan Stanley. Do it, we just did to the tune of $1.8 billion.

Morgan Stanley Abandons 5 San Francisco Office Towers

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/morgan-st...o-office-towers

Regards.

Interesting tele ! There is no moral struggle in doing this because there are no morals any more

Case in point ! the vicar tells everyone its ok to shoplift from the BIG companies

'It’s okay to shoplift' says Father Tim Jones, parish priest of St Lawrence and St Hilda

" I would ask that they do not steal from small, family businesses, but from large national businesses, knowing that the costs are ultimately passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher prices."

Go forth and fill your bags to the brim and when it gets to the magistrates court i will be your character witness . AMEN

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/4813836._I...ys_York_priest/

Edited December 22, 2009 by midas

[12DrinkMore]

Have to agree with GS on this.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...wbRkE&pos=1

Goldman Sachs Group Inc. said Dec. 17 that the ECB should revise its collateral rules to end what it says is Moody’s veto over Greek bond eligibility.

The ECB should remove any reliance on these rating agencies, which have shown themselves to be unreliable and incompetent at pricing risk. By allowing the rating agencies to determine whether debt is ineligible as collateral at the European Central Bank, the risk of creating an instable climate is passed to the rating agencies. We don't need any more of this. Wasn't it Moody and the other lot S&P that gave AAA plus plus ultra ratings to diced up subprime mortgage debts, which was another contributing factor to the crisis?

But I wonder why GS are saying this, maybe because they haven't any control over Moody.

[churchill]

No wonder we are all in such a mess - They must be rea......lly desperate .

Lloyds Agrees to Pay $3.6 Billion to Raise $2 Billion

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...x1MFU&pos=4

[Naam]

not paying your debt when you are able to pay is FRAUD! in my country and a lot of others you are either forced to pay or you go to prison. period!

of course my [not so] humble opinion seems to differ from those who paid for rice fields and think (in their wet dreams) they own them. they can only hope that they are not dealt with in the same fraudulent manner which they recommend to others.

Your opinion IS VERY HUMBLE because its WRONG regarding US home mortgages

( As flying pointed out. ) Please do your homework and get your facts straight.

i assume "homework" means to learn how to commit fraud (as i pointed out).

[lannarebirth]

Have to agree with GS on this.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...wbRkE&pos=1

Goldman Sachs Group Inc. said Dec. 17 that the ECB should revise its collateral rules to end what it says is Moody's veto over Greek bond eligibility.

The ECB should remove any reliance on these rating agencies, which have shown themselves to be unreliable and incompetent at pricing risk. By allowing the rating agencies to determine whether debt is ineligible as collateral at the European Central Bank, the risk of creating an instable climate is passed to the rating agencies. We don't need any more of this. Wasn't it Moody and the other lot S&P that gave AAA plus plus ultra ratings to diced up subprime mortgage debts, which was another contributing factor to the crisis?

But I wonder why GS are saying this, maybe because they haven't any control over Moody.

Because, I'm guessing, they wish to play the spread or failure/success of such bonds in the derivatives market.

[midas]

not paying your debt when you are able to pay is FRAUD! in my country and a lot of others you are either forced to pay or you go to prison. period!

of course my [not so] humble opinion seems to differ from those who paid for rice fields and think (in their wet dreams) they own them. they can only hope that they are not dealt with in the same fraudulent manner which they recommend to others.

Your opinion IS VERY HUMBLE because its WRONG regarding US home mortgages

( As flying pointed out. ) Please do your homework and get your facts straight.

i assume "homework" means to learn how to commit fraud (as i pointed out).

No "homework" means learning about your legal rights as a mortgagor in USA as opposed

to " your country " before expressing you very humble opinion.

[12DrinkMore]

No wonder we are all in such a mess - They must be rea......lly desperate .

Lloyds Agrees to Pay $3.6 Billion to Raise $2 Billion

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...x1MFU&pos=4

What amazes me is that surely they could have raised this capital by offering say 6 or 7 percent to depositors like me, who would have been keen to move GBPs to them at that rate. At the moment Lloyds are offering very unattractive rates to savers. They above issue means that they are paying a massive 12% every year for 15 years. This is an incredible price to pay for capital.

There must surely be a very nasty can of worms behind this.

[AlexLah]

it is clear Naam has has no clue. Just trying to cover his back by saying that in Germany you would go to prison if you handed back the keys of your mortgaged property and stopped paying, even if you were able to pay.

Please show the law that tells that Naam (Mr. conventional wisdom).

[flying]

Interesting that this morning the head of the National board of realtor's is on the news.

Touting how he foresees buying picking up beginning next year.

Also very happy that home prices only dropped 4.3% recently....The lowest in awhile according to him.

What he does not say is how banks have been holding up short sales tied up with offers recently. Giving the appearance of reducing inventories.

Why the banks are doing this has to make you wonder. Is it that as long as they hold the properties they get to write off losses? Or is it that they get to mark to fantasy the value while they hold?

A realtor I was talking with here said it has no rhyme or reason for him. He has seen banks hold things they clearly should have accepted the offer on as the offer was actually very good & yet he has also seen the banks let a few go that in his opinion they easily could have gotten more for.....odd

Short sales, long waits

Edited December 22, 2009 by flying

[Naam]

it is clear Naam has has no clue. Just trying to cover his back by saying that in Germany you would go to prison if you handed back the keys of your mortgaged property and stopped paying, even if you were able to pay.

Please show the law that tells that Naam (Mr. conventional wisdom).

learn reading little poor boy or refrain from deliberate wrong interpretations and accept finally that i'm not doing any homework for you. now back to your dark corner where you belong. do not (repeat NOT) dirty it up. use kleenex!

this is what i said: "not paying your debt when you are able to pay is FRAUD!"

"it is clear" that you too have a criminal mind which condones fraud. do you also own a rice field or only a buffalo... perhaps with calf?

p.s. there is no such thing in a civilised country like "handing over your keys" and run away from debt.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Naam

[Naam]

for those who are interested in legal procedures in Germany, Switzerland, Austria and France where the jurisdiction/penal code is based on the "Code Napoleon":

assuming you have (any) debt in Germany and are either not able or not willing to pay a court of law will ask, on demand of the creditor(s), that you lay open each and every value you possess and swear an oath ("Offenbarungseid") that your statement is true. a false oath carries a mandatory prison sentence (probation canNOT be granted), minimum term one year. if you declare values on which creditors cannot lay hands because of various reasons and still refuse to pay you go for an unspecified time to prison ("Beugehaft") till you pay. that applies too if you refuse the oath.

[flying]

p.s. there is no such thing in a civilised country like "handing over your keys" and run away from debt.

That may be the end of a contract but it is far from the beginning of the actual fraud perpetuated.

A defaulted mortgage is not like running from debt of something you consumed. It is a contract for a hard asset which remains. If one does not fulfil his end of the contract it defaults as agreed upon by both parties in the terms of the mortgage/contract.

The majority of jingle mail/defaults are not due to seeking greener pastures. The penalties that go against your future credit

( which is usually needed to secure your next abode) is not something to look forward to. But the reality at least here... Is folks are jobless & cannot make their payments. Some are half income now & where as they could not & should not have been given the loan in the first place because their income never was sufficient even in the "good times" to safely service the mortgage. It did not stop the interest hungry from giving them the NINJA loans. Very few are wealthy enough to walk due to loss of equity ...thus losing their initial investment too. In fact I would not be surprised if those who fit that category are not more in line with the big boys Midas mentioned .....They seem to have no such rules of conduct....obviously

I have no sympathy for the banks that made such NINJA loans....Then bundled them & sold them again & again.

Let the house of cards fall where it may.

Edited December 23, 2009 by flying

[GuestHouse]

Interesting that this morning the head of the National board of realtor's is on the news.

Touting how he foresees buying picking up beginning next year.

Also very happy that home prices only dropped 4.3% recently....The lowest in awhile according to him.

What he does not say is how banks have been holding up short sales tied up with offers recently. Giving the appearance of reducing inventories.

Why the banks are doing this has to make you wonder. Is it that as long as they hold the properties they get to write off losses? Or is it that they get to mark to fantasy the value while they hold?

A realtor I was talking with here said it has no rhyme or reason for him. He has seen banks hold things they clearly should have accepted the offer on as the offer was actually very good & yet he has also seen the banks let a few go that in his opinion they easily could have gotten more for.....odd

Short sales, long waits

It's a sad day when we turn to 'Realtors' estate agents for any kind of insight into which way the economy is going. They are agents, they make money on commission and they are rightly regarded as being the scum of the property business - lower down that banks and lawyers.

[flying]

It's a sad day when we turn to 'Realtors' estate agents for any kind of insight into which way the economy is going. They are agents, they make money on commission and they are rightly regarded as being the scum of the property business - lower down that banks and lawyers.

Agreed 100%

That was actually my point. That it was amazing that they would use such pumping on CNBC Financial news....Then again maybe not surprising at all

[Naam]

p.s. there is no such thing in a civilised country like "handing over your keys" and run away from debt.

That may be the end of a contract but it is far from the beginning of the actual fraud perpetuated.

that applies to your country, not to mine and not to a lot of other countries. in the Greatest Nation on Earth™ it is indeed legal to "hand over the keys" and walk away even if you have the means to pay your mortgage. but this is in my view fraud because not only the shareholders/depositors of the lender but also those who take mortgages in future will be hurt as they will have to pay with higher fees/interest rates to compensate for the loss caused by fraudsters. i am not a christian but i believe in the universal commandment embedded in all religions/faiths i know and that is "thou shallst not steal!" those who condone or even advocate it are in my book sorry low level creatures without character!

that banks and lenders are the "bad-uns" does not change morals!