Composting Or Alternative?

[scooterboy]

Hi Folks!

You guys have been very helpful in the past, so here goes with another little "problem" -

We have recently aquired a 4 rai strip of rather stony land near to Chiang Mai on a hillside that hasn't been too well looked after. No problem there and we're gradually clearing the land of high grass, weeds, small bushes and other growth. On the land are a few very young guava trees and in the first instance I thought it almost quite natural to pile up the grass and weeds around the base of the trees, to offer some protection, help keep the water in the ground from evaporating and perhaps give some

nourishment to the trees.

BUT - now we've been advised by the local people to burn all the collected grass and whatnot, just making a small bonfire each time we come to the land - and not to try to burn too much at a time.

The reason? Bush fires are prominent in this area during the hot season, so burning beforehand

minimizes the fire risk. All nice and cosy - except that I don't really like burning (air pollution,

mainly) and we can't help but breathe in clouds of the smelly smoke, as well.

What I'd really like to do is to try and make some sort of a compost from all the grass and weeds to

make the earth on the stony land better. Easy enough back in "farangland" - just dump it all in a shady spot and wait. Things are no doubt very different here and there are perhaps other factors to consider - snakes, insects, the heat, lightning, torrential rains and so on.

Anyone have a rather simple solution (if there is one) as to how to make compost - safely and

without any fire risks - and preferably without having to construct anything (the land is on a dirt

road - no water, no power).

Could be, that composting is not a good idea - or is too difficult, so any good alternatives to

avoid burning? Throwing the cut grass'n'stuff on the neighbor's land is not considered to be an alternative!

Thanks for any suggestions or instructions (polite ones, of course!)

SB

[jubby]

make a Fire break around the Land which is what I'm in the process of doing at the moment. just need to scratch the earth bare all around a couple of metres in width. shoud only take a local labourer a few days to complete. Its relatively easy work this time of year. That should satisfy the Locals . I've started putting the leaves etc.. into a couple of concrete water rings. I think I'll need to add water this time of year to get the process going. I think the real reason its burn't is because its the 'path of least resistance' . i.e THE EASY WAY ! ;-)

[toybits]

It is not easy to get a haystack to decompose. First is that composting needs lots of moisture. Second, you have to balance the nutrient level. A stack of hay will be deficient in Nitrogen. So you will need to add Ammonium fertlizer or Urea. Nitrogen is needed by the bacteria, and fungi that will be doing your decomposting. 3rd - your compost heap needs oxygen. Bacteria and fungi breathes. No oxygen, no decomposition. 4th - you might want to consider adding a compost starter - E.g. EM (which is available in many agri-supply shops). Should cut composting to a fraction of what it would take.

Oh, if you allow chickens into your compost heap, their clawing could also mechanically break down the composting material and provide aeration as well. The chickens could also drop some N-rich packages onto your compost heap.

[olaus]

You can mix grass and dung from cows and buffaloes. Add water. The process is done by worms and bacterias. And they can not work without water.

If no water, you have to burn or put under fruittrees.

[Foreverford]

make a Fire break around the Land which is what I'm in the process of doing at the moment. just need to scratch the earth bare all around a couple of metres in width. shoud only take a local labourer a few days to complete. Its relatively easy work this time of year. That should satisfy the Locals . I've started putting the leaves etc.. into a couple of concrete water rings. I think I'll need to add water this time of year to get the process going. I think the real reason its burn't is because its the 'path of least resistance' . i.e THE EASY WAY ! ;-)

Well done Scooterboy just for thinking about alternatives to burning. Jubby has got it right and it appears this will be the year that you will have the most uncontrollable types of materials to deal with. Composting is a true science as others are telling you but in reality you can kill two weeeds with one stone (or something like that). Ideally you could run all the material through a mulcher/chipper to make it into smallerpieces and then start you composting with that. the smaller the matter the quicker the results. But let's be real and lookl at what you really have and the fact that those tools most realistically aren't available. If y0ou build the fire break then you help yourself and your neighbors but don't think that is going to suffice for all of them as burning is a fixation and an ingrained method of eliminating a problem very rapidly (also destroying an assest and the enviroment). If you are planning any more possible planting in the area then try to dig some holes and you can place your organic material in there so it is below ground level and not condusive to rapid fire spread should there be one and it jumps your break. You don't have access to water so the dry materials that yoiu have won't degrade at any kind of rapid rate but that isn't really important as you ar3en't in the compost selling business and the rains will eventually come and start to help you out. In the future try to cut as much of your organic growth while it has moisture in it and then get it into a tight pile and shaded if possible to conserve the moisture if thaat is what you require to start the breakdown process. As said before any type of manure or other wet green material that you can bring in will help with the process (I hope you have a truck). I used to leave my farm and travel about 50 miles inland of the coast of the Monterey Bay to try to get some sun in the foggy summer months. I'd drive my pickup into the dry creek bed and start to load stones (anything football size to as big as I could get) into the back of it until I got onto the overload springs and I'd call it a day. When I got back to the farm I'd unload them and ended up building a rather large beautiful retaining wall to shore up there the hillside below the house (this justified the fuel I burned to get away from the farm for a day, at least for me). So what I'm getting at is that never go to the plot without bringing something in your truck that might assist you in your project. Say like bring manure and water in and then depending on the size of the stones in the plot see if you can't haul them somewhere else at the end of the day where they would be an asset to you or someone else. Otherwise you can use them on the plot as part of the firebreak or as a boundary fence or maybe in some artistic manner or just stockpile them for a later use. i used to cover every square inch of land I could on my farm in Mexico with some kind organic matter, usually discarded palm leaves (now everybody knows how they will never break down let alone in the middle of the hot dry Baja desert, the mexicans laughed at me). Unbeleieveable what the ground looked like under them after a few years as they had only broken down probasbly by 20% but there was a world of life going on under them even in those nasty conditions. that wouldn't seem to be practicasl in your case as the fire situation is what is concerning your neighbors and they wouldn't want to see even ten leaves laying on top of the ground so again in would appear that you would wantt to try to get your organic material below ground level (covering it in dirt would be great but not completely necessary). But if your ground is really stony and hard and dry you may find that difficult at this time of year but still labor is very reasonable and it would amaze you what someone may be able to accomplish if they are young and strong and have the correct tools. A good 1.5 meter pointed pry bar a pick and shovel should suffice to start to get you going down below the surface. The material that you have already cut should then be cut or broken into as small of pieces as possible and this will allow for piling with the least amount of air space which would allow the material to combust easily (not really what you want for composting as you would ideally want to be turning and moving your pile constantly getiing oxygen in and out of the pile to speed up the decomposition process). i think you should look at this year's material as a resource for next year's composting efforts when you can cut your amaterials very green with high moisture content and blend it back into the stockpiles that you have saved below ground level. If you are able to cover them with soil then you could dig it out (it won't have broken down much) and use the soil and the matter in your new blend. REMEMBER!!!! in Thailand one of the non-falang things we deal with here are COBRAS in the compost so if you get it going good and it is warm they will tend to want to use your lovely warm piles as homes in the cooler temps so be careful in that respect always anywhere you compost when you start to use or work your piles. The stones cvould be used to cover highly flammable material but then you would pretty much need to abandon both but it may be a solution. Try to get the piles as compact as possible if fire is the biggest concern and speed of decomposition is not a high priority. A monsterous log laying on the ground is not an issue in a brush fire but if you cut it into a bunch of cordwood size pieces and stacked it up to air dry it would make an explosive situation in a brush fire so use that principle as a guiding line to your process. Jubby has it 100% right that burning is done because it is the easiest and for many a slight thrill (I was a firefighter and it is an unfortunate part of human nature that fire and flames mesmorize many)

Again well done for just thinking about trying something new and i wish you the best of luck in anything you try, you are taking on a hard work difficult situation and it appears as if you are willing to take the extra step to make your place and the world just a litttle better by doing it. Your my hero.

[teletiger]

Wow...thats the biggest paragraph I ve ever seen.

Regards.

[Foreverford]

Wow...thats the biggest paragraph I ve ever seen.

Regards.

Why ya should of seen the rice this year the stalks were as big as sweet corn and knocked out a dozen people when they tried to cut it down it was so full of seed.

[teletiger]

Really? My corn came up as big as rice. 9 tons for 35 rai. TIT.

Regards.

[Foreverford]

Really? My corn came up as big as rice. 9 tons for 35 rai. TIT.

Regards.

Oh that is too good teletiger I needed a good good laugh. Choke Dee in all you do.

[drtreelove]

Scooter, thanks for not burning in Chiang Mai, I have to breathe the air here too and it gets bad enough over the next two or three months.

It's a lot of work to cut and haul the brush to a pile, whether it's a burn pile or a compost pile. So I prefer to cut and leave lay. If you get the brush down fairly flat to below knee level it is not as much of a fire hazard as the standing brush before it is cut. The cut brush will gradually break up and decompose and be incorporated into the soil by nature. Now this is not always practical, if the volume is too heavy or the stems too thick, then its difficult to get the brush down flat.

I like to cut brush with my Honda "krueng tat ya". I can cut a couple of rai a day if there's not heavy mimosa bushes like there is on a lot of land in Chiang Mai. My technique that I learned from cutting poison oak and heavy blackberry bushes in the Santa Cruz mountains of northern California, is to start at the top, not at the bottom of the stems. You swing the cutter back and forth taking small pieces off all the way down. This pulverizes the brush and allows it to lay flat and break up faster.

As the other posters have wisely pointed out, with no water, green material or manures, composting is out of the question. A brush pile will break down eventually, but that is not really compost. Mulching the tree root zones is great if you can do it. Don't pile it up against the tree trunks like locals mistakenly do; it is better to keep the tree stems and root collars aerated and dry, and spread the mulch out under the foliar canopy to the "dripline" and further.

If you have the opportunity to do composting, it is an worthwhile pursuit. I wrote an article on composting, for what its worth; I can send it to you or it may still be posted on Chiang Mai Expats Club website under horticulture menu item. don

[Lickey]

Scooter, you have little choice at this time of year, just clean and burn if you need, or dont burn, i dont think there is a lot to be added to the soil by burning, heaping reaped dead grass would be better, turning every week to prevent or slow down termite infestation,

2/3 months or so will see the start of the rainy season, a month into this and the new lush green weeds and grass will appear, then is the time to start composting, pull the weeds up, throw in a heap, add kitchen waste [no meat, attracts vermin] untreated sawdust, paper, teabags coffee grounds, litrally anything that will decompose, specially green plants, anything green has nitrogen which the ground needs, mix in the odd bag of cow/chicken/pig/bat shit and in a few months you will have a hot steaming pile of compost, you can buy sachets of urea diluted with water and put on the compost heap to give it a bit more go if you want.

And if the compost gets hot enough, it will destroy and seeds in new grass and the seeds in grazing buffalo shit, so you wont be planting more problems!

Cheers, Lickey,,

[scooterboy]

Hi Again Folks!

Thanks for the advice and ideas- always welcome!

It seems that even though we've never had any experience in the art of clearing land before,

we'd already started to some of things suggested, so maybe we're on the right track.

FIRE BREAK : Yes, we'd started to clear a roughly 3 metre band around the boundary of the land.

The first problem there was to FIND the <deleted>' boundary - not an easy job when everything is

covered by tall grass, bushes'n'stuff. Actually, we started around the middle of the land and worked

our way towards the neighboring land, uncovering a marked (with large stones) walkway between ours and the neighbor's, that is "no man's land". We're now following the walkway, clearing as we go - hopefully we'll end up

with the Fire Break all the way around. Ain't sure yet, as there are areas we haven't gotten to - and

we'll just have to wait and see what's under all the high growth.

"Scratching" the earth aside would be nice - ain't easy with stones and boulders everywhere. Too,

the "local workers" are us two. No offense to anyone, but we'd rather do the job ourselves.

The concrete rings solution is an interesting concept (hey, never thought of that!), but maybe we'll settle

on a similar thing and build a high round ring from the many stones. One thing, though, still a bit

concerned about snakes nesting in the compost - the g/f hates them and won't work that day if

she sees one, or just thinks she sees one. Likewise for scorpions and other ugly things.

COMPOST STARTER: Yeah, heard about that one before and might just try it. EM - how much does

it cost, I wonder. Chickens? Ain't no chickens anywhere near the place - no buffaloes, no nuttin',

a few snakes, scorpions and some lightning quick "things" that you just catch a glimpse of - and

they're gone into the bush. Oh - and goddam ants everywhere! The area is very quiet.

I read somewhere that if you build a compost heap, then the worms will come by themselves, sooner

or later.

Sounds good, maybe it works, maybe it don't work - but I'll sure give it a go!

OLAUS: As in the original post, I DID put under the trees - but was advised NOT to, so burned

the lot and put the ashes under the trees. My reckoning is, once you've burned it, it can't burn

again - and the ash is food for the trees.

FOREVERFORD: Whoo! Now THAT is one l-o-n-g post! Better get your "Enter" button fixed pretty

soon (just joking!). Yup - totally agree - burning seems to be all the locals know about.

Ain't being critical - it's just a fact. Back in farangland burning ain't allowed - 'cept in certain circumstances. Most stuff is plowed back into the soil - as far as I know. :jerk:

Exactly - the rains'll come and there ain't no hurry to compost anything. The main thing is to avoid

burning as much as possible, but minimizing the risk of fire.

Good idea, digging a hole. Simple, but effective - at least if I can build the ring of stones around

the hole then there'd be more room for the material - and at the same time lessens the risk of

anybody (me?) from forgetting where the dam_n hole is and falling into it. Could maybe build

the wall reasonably high - even build a ring in each corner of the land.

(Hey - does that make me the Lord of the Rings? - ha!)

Would have to have a makeshift "door" at the bottom of the ring, to dig out the compost later on, though.

Ain't NO way I'm climbing into a stone tower that's possibly filled with snakes and things - Tolkien or

no Tolkien!

Thanks for the advice about the "wet green" material. Would've started to clear the land after the

rainy season - but got a poisoned foot, which kept me out for almost 2 months. By the time I was

walking again, the grass'n'stuff was mostly dry. Next season we'll start earlier - shouldn't be the

enormous amounts of material, anyway, as we'll visit the land regularly to do some work and to

try and keep the grass and weeds down a bit.

A truck? Nope, don't have one - besides, the track to the land is too small (and bumpy!). Only got

a motorbike, I'm afraid. Sound advice - and we do bring and take stuff whenever we can - like a few bottles of water to douse the bonfire before with before we leave the land - and take a few stones home to decorate the garden. hel_l, they're free - ha ha!

We've hauled large amounts of stones up to the entrance to the land, raising 2 long, low walls

of stones. Looks pretty, but don't serve any real purpose - apart from having the stones in one

place instead of spread all over the land. I think the walls wil be more than 10ft high by the time we've picked

up most of the stones!

Burning's a thrill? Then I'd better get off to the nearest head-doctor cos I hate burning and worry all the

time that the fire'll spread if I blink more than twice in one hour. The g/f won't let me leave the land until I'm sure the fire's out 100%, so I'll take her along to the head-doctor, as well. Shoot - I won't even have candles in the house!

Thanks for ALL the replies and I think I'm starting to get a picture of how to handle the compost,

but - hey - any further ideas or additions will always be most welcome. I KNEW you guys would come

up with some good ideas!

Sorry if there's a delay in my replies - broadband hasn't been invented yet in these parts and

a 56k modem ain't too quick.

Cheers

SB

[Foreverford]

Hi Again Folks!

Thanks for the advice and ideas- always welcome!

It seems that even though we've never had any experience in the art of clearing land before,

we'd already started to some of things suggested, so maybe we're on the right track.

FIRE BREAK : Yes, we'd started to clear a roughly 3 metre band around the boundary of the land.

The first problem there was to FIND the <deleted>' boundary - not an easy job when everything is

covered by tall grass, bushes'n'stuff. Actually, we started around the middle of the land and worked

our way towards the neighboring land, uncovering a marked (with large stones) walkway between ours and the neighbor's, that is "no man's land". We're now following the walkway, clearing as we go - hopefully we'll end up

with the Fire Break all the way around. Ain't sure yet, as there are areas we haven't gotten to - and

we'll just have to wait and see what's under all the high growth.

"Scratching" the earth aside would be nice - ain't easy with stones and boulders everywhere. Too,

the "local workers" are us two. No offense to anyone, but we'd rather do the job ourselves.

The concrete rings solution is an interesting concept (hey, never thought of that!), but maybe we'll settle

on a similar thing and build a high round ring from the many stones. One thing, though, still a bit

concerned about snakes nesting in the compost - the g/f hates them and won't work that day if

she sees one, or just thinks she sees one. Likewise for scorpions and other ugly things.

COMPOST STARTER: Yeah, heard about that one before and might just try it. EM - how much does

it cost, I wonder. Chickens? Ain't no chickens anywhere near the place - no buffaloes, no nuttin',

a few snakes, scorpions and some lightning quick "things" that you just catch a glimpse of - and

they're gone into the bush. Oh - and goddam ants everywhere! The area is very quiet.

I read somewhere that if you build a compost heap, then the worms will come by themselves, sooner

or later.

Sounds good, maybe it works, maybe it don't work - but I'll sure give it a go!

OLAUS: As in the original post, I DID put under the trees - but was advised NOT to, so burned

the lot and put the ashes under the trees. My reckoning is, once you've burned it, it can't burn

again - and the ash is food for the trees.

FOREVERFORD: Whoo! Now THAT is one l-o-n-g post! Better get your "Enter" button fixed pretty

soon (just joking!). Yup - totally agree - burning seems to be all the locals know about.

Ain't being critical - it's just a fact. Back in farangland burning ain't allowed - 'cept in certain circumstances. Most stuff is plowed back into the soil - as far as I know. :jerk:

Exactly - the rains'll come and there ain't no hurry to compost anything. The main thing is to avoid

burning as much as possible, but minimizing the risk of fire.

Good idea, digging a hole. Simple, but effective - at least if I can build the ring of stones around

the hole then there'd be more room for the material - and at the same time lessens the risk of

anybody (me?) from forgetting where the dam_n hole is and falling into it. Could maybe build

the wall reasonably high - even build a ring in each corner of the land.

(Hey - does that make me the Lord of the Rings? - ha!)

Would have to have a makeshift "door" at the bottom of the ring, to dig out the compost later on, though.

Ain't NO way I'm climbing into a stone tower that's possibly filled with snakes and things - Tolkien or

no Tolkien!

Thanks for the advice about the "wet green" material. Would've started to clear the land after the

rainy season - but got a poisoned foot, which kept me out for almost 2 months. By the time I was

walking again, the grass'n'stuff was mostly dry. Next season we'll start earlier - shouldn't be the

enormous amounts of material, anyway, as we'll visit the land regularly to do some work and to

try and keep the grass and weeds down a bit.

A truck? Nope, don't have one - besides, the track to the land is too small (and bumpy!). Only got

a motorbike, I'm afraid. Sound advice - and we do bring and take stuff whenever we can - like a few bottles of water to douse the bonfire before with before we leave the land - and take a few stones home to decorate the garden. hel_l, they're free - ha ha!

We've hauled large amounts of stones up to the entrance to the land, raising 2 long, low walls

of stones. Looks pretty, but don't serve any real purpose - apart from having the stones in one

place instead of spread all over the land. I think the walls wil be more than 10ft high by the time we've picked

up most of the stones!

Burning's a thrill? Then I'd better get off to the nearest head-doctor cos I hate burning and worry all the

time that the fire'll spread if I blink more than twice in one hour. The g/f won't let me leave the land until I'm sure the fire's out 100%, so I'll take her along to the head-doctor, as well. Shoot - I won't even have candles in the house!

Thanks for ALL the replies and I think I'm starting to get a picture of how to handle the compost,

but - hey - any further ideas or additions will always be most welcome. I KNEW you guys would come

up with some good ideas!

Sorry if there's a delay in my replies - broadband hasn't been invented yet in these parts and

a 56k modem ain't too quick.

Cheers

SB

Scoterboy you are a superstar keep on truckin' with your motor bike you sound like one of the most together guys on this forum. still my hero. Keep on keepin' on.

[jubby]

Scooterboy ! I'm impressed too. doing your own fire-break ! Wow!

I did try but found it mind blowingly boring ,and I'm not too good with the Thai digging implements So I did as much as I could with the spade on front of the Tractor and got my wifes brother to do the rest. He makes it look easy, Hardly breaks a sweat. (unlike me)

Good Luck with it.

[Gary A]

I too don't like the idea of burning off everything. The first year I plowed everything under and waited for the seeds to spout, then plowed them down again AND again. I hate to admit it but my wife was right. I wasted a lot of effort and diesel fuel for nothing. I now plow a firebreak and then let my wife supervise the burning.

[scooterboy]

Hi Guys!

The fire break's coming along quite nicely, but as jubby writes, it ain't the most exciting work - and it takes a LONG time to get an area cleared. The g/f works upright using a Thai hoe thing - I just crouch on the ground and tear the grass and weeds out of the ground, trying to get the roots out as much as possible - with my hands (got leather gloves on, though!). Wow - our hands certainly do ache all the time!

Already collecting stones and boulders in piles to try and make (later) some high rings to dump the grass and stuff for composting. Sorry it ain't going any quicker, that's all. Generally speaking, we spend a couple of hours almost every day clearing, early morning work of course - before it gets hot.

Like Gary A, I'm a-wondering if all the grass and weeds are just going to bounce back up again as soon as the rainy season comes along - just have to wait and see, that's all. At least we've removed a ton of low bushes that put long "trailers" out on the land that trip you up all the time! Got a bushcutter (whirling blade on a long pole) that ought to take care of cutting whatever comes up again in the wet season.

Foreverford - it's good folks like yourself that come up with the ideas and suggestions that make it possible for people like us to do how we want to do!

Cheers

SB

[enkmd]

Hay! Composters,

I always wondered why people here burnt everything and thought that composting would be a better way of doing things, however where I come from leaves and weeds etc easily compost themselves either heaped in a pile or left where they fall. I also thought that the dry dusty soil here would benefit from composting.

Well we just got some land recently and have just arrived to experience life in rural Thailand. The teak leaves are dead dry when they fall and we had piles of them covering much of the land. I soaked a few leaves in a bucket of water but it just didn't seem that it was going to be a very easy or succesful job, so I gave in and as instructed by the family, we burnt the lot, so quick and easy.

So at least now I can understand why it is like it is.

I will however get around to building a proper compost heap with 3 seperate sections and roof, and will hopefully prove myself right, even if it does take much longer and hard work.

[Pond Life]

I tried using concrete well rings in the past.

They are easy to put the waste into.

But very difficult to get the compost out or to turn the contents.

I usualy ended up removing the rings for access, but they are very heavy & get damaged in the process.

My latest heap was built by putting 3 pairs of concrete fence posts in the ground to support 3 sides of a square, the walls are of corrugated iron, 2 sheets high.

Seems good so far.

I have 2 pieces of land, 5 rai & 10 rai.

I just cut weeds as short as I can & leave it on the ground.

Tree prunings get burnt.

[scooterboy]

Now got about two-thirds of the fire break done around the perimeter of the land.

Bad news yesterday, there was a bushfire on the hillside and 3 large plots were almost totally wiped out - fruit trees, and all!

Our land wasn't touched (too far away, perhaps), but it sure put the wind up the g/f. Don't know how the bushfire started, but it WAS very windy that day. As far as I know, the fire "drifted" from one plot to the the others. That's a sad sight to see - and I wonder how things get sorted out in the end - maybe compensation, perhaps?

SB

[jubby]

Now got about two-thirds of the fire break done around the perimeter of the land.

Bad news yesterday, there was a bushfire on the hillside and 3 large plots were almost totally wiped out - fruit trees, and all!

Our land wasn't touched (too far away, perhaps), but it sure put the wind up the g/f. Don't know how the bushfire started, but it WAS very windy that day. As far as I know, the fire "drifted" from one plot to the the others. That's a sad sight to see - and I wonder how things get sorted out in the end - maybe compensation, perhaps?

SB

Its happened to me twice in ten years. Windy day and someone with a box of matches eager to clear there land the easy way. The Neurons just dont spark in some people. Wind, Fire, recipe for disaster ! - not to some people ;-)

Make sure your fire breaks good and wide, the fire will leap it on a really windy day.

Back to composting, I'm just sat here observing the wifes brother doing a spot of gardening. He's tidying up some leaves from the Teak trees which are wet due to a spot of 'watering' yesterday. I ask him to put the leaves in the compost heap as they are wet and ideal. I lead by example and show him. he's a good worker (although a bit of a zombie who very rarely engages brain in my opinion) and I leave him to it. Just 5 mins ago. I see a plume of smoke I often associate with someone trying to burn 'Green' or 'wet' material. You guessed it he's set fire to the compost heap

I turn on the Hose and instruct him to put the fire out. Now he's got it

[jubby]

Now got about two-thirds of the fire break done around the perimeter of the land.

Bad news yesterday, there was a bushfire on the hillside and 3 large plots were almost totally wiped out - fruit trees, and all!

Our land wasn't touched (too far away, perhaps), but it sure put the wind up the g/f. Don't know how the bushfire started, but it WAS very windy that day. As far as I know, the fire "drifted" from one plot to the the others. That's a sad sight to see - and I wonder how things get sorted out in the end - maybe compensation, perhaps?

SB

It is a sad sight to see , very emotional and also pretty exhausting trying to put it out. As for compensation, yes , you can take something from the perpetrators if you can prove who started it. But if you take something from someone (read Family) who have very little you can be sure that the family will get even when your backs turned. I declined but insisted that they keep the Land Tidy, got something in writing from the Pu Yai Ban.

[Foreverford]

Hi Guys!

The fire break's coming along quite nicely, but as jubby writes, it ain't the most exciting work - and it takes a LONG time to get an area cleared. The g/f works upright using a Thai hoe thing - I just crouch on the ground and tear the grass and weeds out of the ground, trying to get the roots out as much as possible - with my hands (got leather gloves on, though!). Wow - our hands certainly do ache all the time!

Already collecting stones and boulders in piles to try and make (later) some high rings to dump the grass and stuff for composting. Sorry it ain't going any quicker, that's all. Generally speaking, we spend a couple of hours almost every day clearing, early morning work of course - before it gets hot.

Like Gary A, I'm a-wondering if all the grass and weeds are just going to bounce back up again as soon as the rainy season comes along - just have to wait and see, that's all. At least we've removed a ton of low bushes that put long "trailers" out on the land that trip you up all the time! Got a bushcutter (whirling blade on a long pole) that ought to take care of cutting whatever comes up again in the wet season.

Foreverford - it's good folks like yourself that come up with the ideas and suggestions that make it possible for people like us to do how we want to do!

Cheers

SB

Scooterboy my hero, how ya doin'? Here's some food for thought or food for the compost bin. I don't know if this is a good suggestion but the resources are out there, I just don't know if they are near you? All the major waterways seemed to be choked with this huge ugly hyacynth looking type of plant. Literally hundreds of rai of the stuff floats in one bunch on the Chao Praya and other big rivers. If, and a big one, your property doesn't lie in close proximity to a good clean waterway AND where you live in Chiang Mai area there is a big waterway with this invasive miserable thing. I think you could haul a little by little up as you have said you go to your parcel almost daily on your scooter and enter it into the dry materail that you are composting. It should add a considerable amoutnt of moisture into your mix and it is green matter. Again don't think of this if you are somewhere near enough to a good waterway because this is a curse to have choke up waterways. Someone might have had some experience with this stuff and can be helpful with further advice. It's sort of like lawn clippings possibly. If all you have is lawn clippings and you put it in a pile you end up with oowwee gooey oily mucky miserable stuff. but if you have a lot of dry material and you intersperse your clipping throughout and continue to blend the grass clippings with your dry matter Bingo you have worms and black beautiful soil. I think this could work the same way but of course you have to have access to the plant and the other factors I talked about. good luck and keep on scootin'!

[scooterboy]

Hi there Foreverford!

Sounds like a real neat idea, using the floating greenery in the compost! Maybe some of the

other guys could take this up, cos ain't a waterway or a river anywhere near where I am. At most

there's a little creek that runs on the next piece of land, but that only gets water during the wet

season - the rest of the time it's apparently quite dry. I HAVE seen the floating stuff (on the

Chao Praya, too!) and often wondered where it originally came from. hel_l, might be a good

business opportunity for someone - making black soil out of stuff passing by on the river!

But yeah, we still go to the land almost every day for a couple of hours - gotta get that firebreak

finished, as it's getting very hot here now. The work's been going slower of late, as the ground

is very dry and very hard, so the clearing work is getting harder all the time. Still, I'm pleased

to say that we only need a few more yards and it'll be finished. Well, I hope it's finished, as

we'll have to take a walk around the perimeter to make sure the grass'n'stuff hasn't bounced

back up again in the meantime - heh heh!

As you already know, we've changed our plans once - and it looks like we'll have to change

them again, especially after seeing the mess the recent bushfires made. We reckon we'll be

better off this time around by clearing the land as quickly as possible and (unfortunately),

burning the grass'n'stuff as we go - at least as long as the weather's hot and dry. Most

likely we'll revert to our original idea if (and when) the weather changes - and there's a big

enough downpour to dampen the earth for a while. Mad as I might be - I ain't risking the land

burning up (possibly along with other people's land) just to satisfy my own ego.

We're told by the locals that March month can bring a few thundery downpours, so we're waiting

patiently for the heavens to open up, then we'll take a look at things once again.

In the meantime, we're still collecting the stones in piles to build the rings when the chance

comes. Don't want to have to hurry doing that sort of work - building with loose stones needs

a little time (and patience, I guess!).

Anyway, you keep thinking up them good ideas - I'm sure there are guys that can use some or

all the ideas available - I know I can!

Hang in there!

SB

[Foreverford]

Hi there Foreverford!

Sounds like a real neat idea, using the floating greenery in the compost! Maybe some of the

other guys could take this up, cos ain't a waterway or a river anywhere near where I am. At most

there's a little creek that runs on the next piece of land, but that only gets water during the wet

season - the rest of the time it's apparently quite dry. I HAVE seen the floating stuff (on the

Chao Praya, too!) and often wondered where it originally came from. hel_l, might be a good

business opportunity for someone - making black soil out of stuff passing by on the river!

But yeah, we still go to the land almost every day for a couple of hours - gotta get that firebreak

finished, as it's getting very hot here now. The work's been going slower of late, as the ground

is very dry and very hard, so the clearing work is getting harder all the time. Still, I'm pleased

to say that we only need a few more yards and it'll be finished. Well, I hope it's finished, as

we'll have to take a walk around the perimeter to make sure the grass'n'stuff hasn't bounced

back up again in the meantime - heh heh!

As you already know, we've changed our plans once - and it looks like we'll have to change

them again, especially after seeing the mess the recent bushfires made. We reckon we'll be

better off this time around by clearing the land as quickly as possible and (unfortunately),

burning the grass'n'stuff as we go - at least as long as the weather's hot and dry. Most

likely we'll revert to our original idea if (and when) the weather changes - and there's a big

enough downpour to dampen the earth for a while. Mad as I might be - I ain't risking the land

burning up (possibly along with other people's land) just to satisfy my own ego.

We're told by the locals that March month can bring a few thundery downpours, so we're waiting

patiently for the heavens to open up, then we'll take a look at things once again.

In the meantime, we're still collecting the stones in piles to build the rings when the chance

comes. Don't want to have to hurry doing that sort of work - building with loose stones needs

a little time (and patience, I guess!).

Anyway, you keep thinking up them good ideas - I'm sure there are guys that can use some or

all the ideas available - I know I can!

Hang in there!

SB

Anyone knows you're trying your best and 99% of the people out there wouldn't be giving the effort that you are to try to do the best thing. Unfortunately we can't always do the best and have to be logical. If burning is a necessity due to the fact that it is a new operation for you, let it be. Your plan is to eliminate burning entirely when you have a complete grasp of the land and what you can accomplish and you have to be commended for all the effort and the future plans you have. If it works out try to burn during the rain and that would mean that you would be able to get a good hot fire going and add to it with other piles and not worry about flying embers. Otherwise as I'm sure your neighbors have told you burn small manageable piles, one at a time, that won't allow for any big drifting embers to fly out of you piles. Also consider bringing as much water as you can each time you scoot up to the property so you can have a bit of reserve stored up for the time you start to burn. try to empty it into a large vessel (plastic garbage can?) the days that you burn and have at least one half filled bucket nearby anytime you light off a pile of cuttings. If needed you can go back to the big vessel and dip for more water as needed. two people and two buckets is good three people and two buckets a bit better. When done put the water back into small vessels that can be sealed to avoid evaporationa and keep hauling up more (you will be a recyler with all the palstic bottles you will scroung to do this Yuk Yuk)

Always remember that no matter how good a fire break you cut that flying embers can "jump" even breaks that have been bulldozed three blades wide. Though if you have a good break the fire may be contained to your property only and your good maintenance will save your neighbors. Choke Dee and keep on Scootin'

[scooterboy]

HiYa Foreverford!

Thanks a bunch for the encouraging words! I expect other people are doing their bit in their

own way - most no doubt just "do it" and don't have to ask for advice - heh heh! True enough,

this is the first time for us on a big piece of land - and one thing I've learned in life, if you don't

know or ain't sure, then ASK - coz somebody, somewhere knows a whole lot and people will

generally impart some info to help out - or just to get you off their backs for a while.

Right on! - we only burn one small pile a day, topping it up a few times and then letting it burn

out completely in the end, while the next pile is being prepared nearby. The area around the

new pile is also cleared, maybe 4 or 5 feet - further if there's tall grass'n'stuff overlooking the

pile.

We start to burn around 7:30am, when there's usually no wind at all - and stop say, around

8:30 at the latest. We have an unbroken rule - if there's any moderate or strong wind, then

we don't burn! There's a million other things to do, so no chance of just standing and

admiring the view for a couple of hours! Anyways, as yet EVERY time we've been to the land

there's been little or no wind at all. Seems the wind starts to pick up later in the morning in

these parts.

Actually, the water we haul along with us every time is more than enough - and we often end

up giving the fruit trees some of the water (ain't no point in taking it home again, is there!).

But, sure, if and when we don't have to burn any longer, then we'll continue taking water along,

as it can be used for the trees - and also to keep the future compost piles moist. But, hey, you're

giving free advice to others and I'm sure somebody's thinking "ho! - that's a good idea!".

Well, if our own land burns because of a mistake by us, then we'll have to accept it. If we

burn (an)other land then we'd be real sad about that. Works the other way around, too - a

guy on another land might end up burning our land - but every day that goes means a

smaller chance of that happening - and the firebreak ain't a 100% solution, but it might

just make the difference between a partial burn, a total burn and a no burn! Remember, too,

that we started the clearing (a while ago, now!) around the middle of the land, so there are

already a few cleared areas here and there in different places.

Had a stroll around some of the perimeter this morning. Whoo! - we were real pleased to

see that there was almost no grass or weeds where we'd originally started the firebreak - but

we didn't get all the way around, as the g/f wanted to clear an area that she'd put off clearing

properly, previously, due to the thickness of the undergrowth, so we stopped there for the rest of

our worktime.

As always, thanks for your good ideas - keep 'em coming!

SB

[scooterboy]

Just an update on what's happening...

Went to the land early this morning, like we usually do. Whoo! - an enormous part of one side

of the mountain had burned sometime during the previous day - or maybe night.

Everywhere was blackened by fire - fruit trees, teak trees, bushes, grass - everything was

gone - or rendered totally useless. :D

It looked like the fire had started way over in the distance and had swept along the side of the

mountain, burning everything in its path. Our neighbor's land has been 99% destroyed, along

with all the fruit trees that were in bloom - except for maybe a couple at the far end of their land.

Strangely enough - their little house on the middle of their land hadn't been touched by the

flames.

Looks like all the hard work in the last couple of months helped things a great deal, as the fire

had stopped dead at the firebreak we'd made. On one side it's black - on the other there's still

fresh earth - like someone had drawn a very straight line from one end of the boundary to the

other end - a real weird sight.

Actually, we did get some charring on our side - around a tree on the boundary itself , which

had a couple of bushes close by - the bushes won't survive. Small stuff - just a couple of square

yards - and we figure we're dead lucky that the damage was that small.

Maybe the firebreak stopped the fire from spreading even more - across our land and to the

neighbors on the other side and even to the adjoining areas. We like to think that's the case, as

I'm pretty sure that if we'd just cleared grass'n'stuff from the middle of the land, as we'd

originally done, then the damage might've been far worse.

Off topic (maybe!) - surprised there aren't more fires out of control. We regularly see folks

burning stuff slam bang next to wooden fencing, under trees - even a few inches from their

(wooden) house. Sure hope they know what they're doing.

Anyway, we're continuing with the work on the land, clearing and burning as we go.

Thanks for your time...

SB

[jubby]

Hi Scooterboy,

I've just maybe 1 hour ago got back from our little farm. Got a phone call from the wifes brother. I new it was bad news straight away.

Its been a very windy day today, VERY windy, so you know whats comming right

I lost 8 rai to fire, mainly young teak. The teak should recover but will take a bit longer. Utter devastation as far as the eye can see. beyond our firebreak. The firebreak did help and saved the neighbours rubber. I did lose it a bit when I was up the mountain surveying the devastation another neighbour lit a big bonfire mainly bamboo . The flames were huge and blowing towards our land. I pottered on over and asked them politely " NOT " to put the Fire out ;-) They complied to my request.

You'll get used to the fires after 3 or 4 times.

The real funny thing is that I know its one of the neighbours clearing land for rubber , but he ain't going to admit it. He's almost certainly encroucing also as it borders a 'forest park' .

Wild Wild West.

[scooterboy]

Hi Jubby!

Really - 8 rai? Jeez, that's really bad! And losing the teak trees, too - yeah, sure they ought

to grow again, but it's never a pretty sight to see all the hard work ruined. Get used to it? Not

sure we can ever get used to that sort of thing, especially IF it's caused by "human error".

Ain't a one to whine about other people's lack of respect for their (and other's) property, but

it sure would be nice if people treated burning with the respect that's due. Seem to be hearing

a lot lately about folks lighting fires and not bothering to take care about where or how they

burn. Man, that's real scary! Then again, it's the "burning" season and I suppose that when

the season's finished, people tend to forget about it all until the next time around.

hel_l - at the present time we drive out to the land in the early mornings, wondering if it's still

gonna be there by the time we arrive - heh heh!

Talked to the neighbors (next land) today - they reckoned another owner burned a pile of

stuff and just walked away from it - which caused the sweeping fire to burn other people's

lands. Sounds a bit like hearsay to me, though - but you never know. Whatever, they sure

weren't happy about their land being razed like that - and I don't blame them, either. They

spent a lot of money getting the grass'n'stuff cut twice these last few months - the late rains

made it all bounce up again after the first time, so had to cut again towards the end of last

year. Maybe now they'll consider making a firebreak, now that they've seen that it can, in fact, help

things - but I ain't holding my breath.

Anyway, hope your land recovers quickly - keep safe out there!

Cheers

SB

[jubby]

I've had a couple of days to calm down and check everything out. There's a great deal of what appears to be lack of appreciation of consequences or is it just sheer selfishness I don't know. You have to think of everything possible to stop the relentless mindless onslaught by the natives of this beautiful Country.

Its clear the Firebreaks not wide enough, its approx 3 metres but I guess needs to be Six. have to make sure that its kept clear of anything that can burn for example falling leaves etc. It requires a daily inspection I think. Its worth dividing the land with several firebreaks also so you don't loose everything.

The teak is remarkably resilient it'll probably sprout a few extra stalks as if its been coppiced but thats easy enough to control. The termites will have taken a bashing also . I had some nice mature trees of an unknown variety which are almost certainly going to fall down as they've burned from within like Charcoal. i'd better take them down before they fall down.

I'm hoping to find some other fast growing trees similar to teak to replace the lost ones as I'm not keen on monoculture.

Its just a shame they didn't burn a bit of their own rubber which would have maybe caused some neurons to spark in the peanut between their Ears.

Anyway, its just an hobby and maybe something for the Granchildren in 40 years or so.

[scooterboy]

Hi again Jubby!

Well, can't help but agree with you there - don't seem to be a whole lot of natives interested in

using their nuts (sorry, peanuts!) to actually THINK about how and what they're doing. That goes

for more than just burning, too. Ain't too sure it makes any big difference if they burn their own

land, as well as others' - folks here think in a different way than most of us farangs.

Three metre firebreak ain't enough? Maybe you got some tall bushes, trees or something, close

to the boundary - but would've thought a couple of metres would normally be more than enough,

though I sure ain't speaking from experience - got no real experience, 'cept for the last few

months.

Six metre firebreak? Whoo - that's a big'un!! You could build a whole row of houses on the

firebreak itself!

Hmm..already learned a few things about young teaks. Like, don't think they're wild bushes and

cut them down. hel_l - had no idea they were teaks - neither did the g/f. As you say, they start to

sprout again after a long while - and thank goodnes for that, as I downed one of the neighbor's

prize golden teaks, too!

Yeah - we'd been thinking much along the same lines. We reckon on keeping a 2 metre clear area

down and across the the middle of the land - so maybe only a quarter of the land will be ruined

at any one time. Ought to make it easier to get around the place in the wet season, too!

Can't help you with any "fast growing trees" - but hey - got plenty of fast growing weeds, if you

can use any of them!

The neighbor just had another chat with the g/f. Seems she's VERY teed off, partly as they'd used

about 100K baht on their fruit trees - but mostly coz she'd just quit her job and had been planning to

start a small chicken farm on the land. Well, a 100K's can be a whole lot of money for the

average Thai - and I doubt anyone's gonna come knocking on her door with a bag full of cash to

replace the fruit trees. The chicken farm ain't gonna amount to anything just at the moment, that's

for sure. At the moment they're turning their backs on the land and don't want to go near the place. I

expect they'll return again after they've cooled down awhile.

Here's hopng there are no more "accidents" for you, me - or anyone else!

Cheers

SB