News on visa detentions

[DaveYo]

Thanks Dr. PP for setting the record straight.  One other thing, I know I have to leave every 90 days, out and back in, and I know the airport is as legal as it gets, so anyplace else I can go to that I can be assured of getting a legal stamp put on my passport?  Also what areas should I avoid doing border runs?

Reason I am asking you this is because of recent events of the fake stamps showing up.  I want to be safe in this regards.

:blues:

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The fake stamps were all applied illegally and through agents. Cross anywhere yourself physically you'll have no problems.

[Bob Chittie]

I am a voice in the wilderness Capital and only adding a smigeon of balance here....by no means achieving 50/50. You condone illegality without reservation. If I have been here too long, perhaps you have a way to go yet.

Dr, you're missing the point completley. it seems you have a very hard time putting yourself in someone else's shoes. From the tone of your posts, i'm guessing you're probably a lawyer?

[DaveYo]

Hmmmm, as of soliciting prostitution, yes there is a lot of that going on in Bangkok, but the way things are going, I would be very leery about even that activity itself.  For all you know you can be getting set up as to give the police some reason to check you out etc, even to the passport.  

For some reason or another I have just a gut feeling, that might be their next agenda.  

For example, I live here in USA, so I know who is who and what areas to avoid, and what is going on in my local and surrounding area.  Now do the farangs know what is going on in Bangkok, know who is who, and what areas to avoid.  Of course not.  If one does not speak or write Thai, that is even worse.  So when you propose to some girl you are taking one heck of a risk, as she can be an undercover police officer.

The way things are going, best stay clean and be straight and do things the legal way for now.  I think everything is up for grabs, and most of us do not know all the laws in Thailand, so why give them a reason to pounce on you.

:blues:

[dr_Pat_Pong]

A learned and erudite lad like you Bob will hopefully be able to guide me to the point.  May I crave your indulgence in this regard ?  The scholarly should try to help we less gifted souls.

[Bob Chittie]

A learned and erudite lad like you Bob will hopefully be able to guide me to the point.  May I crave your indulgence in this regard ?  The scholarly should try to help we less gifted souls.

Your response says it all! Don't get me wrong. You do give a lot of good solid advice and I am appreciative for that. But it seems that here, you may be missing the point. Now I don't pretend to know everything, but what I do know is that for years the Thai government/police/immigration officials have been aware of these agencies and did nothing, apart from perhaps collect pay offs to buy new Benz's. In light of this, it is only fair to broadcast a widespread warning to all who may be using these agencies BEFORE these same officials begin arresting foreigners and threatening them with 1-10 years in jail, citing a law which they themselves have turned their back's on for years. Your apparent disagreement with this common sense perspective led me to the conclusion that you must be an attorney!

And Doctor, let's not try to fool anyone. You are the scholar here. Although, I hope that doesn't make me the 'less gifted soul' you speak of.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I'm not going to fight with you Bob, Certainly inactivity on the Thai part is not excusable. But the laid back attitude of a great number of farang is too. One lame brain on here from Chiang Mai has lived here for 10 years on 30 day visa's. His run is nearly over and so it should be. When Uncle Sam told Thailand to tighten the borders he didn't say whenever you are ready, and give the non compliant people lots of notice to mend their ways, he said NOW. Why would people pay 12 to 15 thousand for a multi non immigrant visa through agents ? A Court might think it was because it was illegal and the easy way out. I doubt that anyone will do time for their sins, but a good number will be deported. The idiots emailing the PM are inflaming the situation. Email their Ambassador or Foreign Ministry at home by all means. Notionally at least, the professionals will be diplomatic, whereas judging by the intemperate comments on this board, the expatriate community will not be as reserved.

[sailor]

hi all

after reading catseyelands post on his sad adventure with visa agents and the consequences I wish to add what happened to a friend of mine recently.

some weeks ago he went for his visa run and was rejected at the thai immigration because his last entry stamp did not have any record in the computer. He was told that his stamp was a fake accordingly and was sent back to the border he obtained it from and have it corrected there. Glad he had'nt been arrested he left but went to his local immigration to get an extention as he was too scared to go to that border. they did for him and he got 2 weeks extention. During the 2 weeks his fear grew after all he read in the media and on this board. He seeked legal advice and everytime he was told to apply for a new passport and pay overstay from the last recorded entry.

so that's what he did, still a little in doubt if it would work out because the extention done on the false entry stamp. He went to his embassy, received a new passport, went to immigration, had to answer some questions as they were suspicious about the extention and then paid maximum fine. they gave him another extention.

so my advice to anyone who is sweating right now, get yourself a new passport and pay the fine, after that you will be ok and free. I guess that is the only safe way to get your shirt clean.    ???

[jaded]

Sailor, what nationality is your friend? Also, why did he have to pay the maximum fine - was it because he waited the two weeks before applying for a new passport? You didn't mention the reason he told his embassy WHY he needed a new passport. Lost/stolen or damaged? Anyway, I'm happy he seems to be sorted out now.

[Axel]

Let's face it, using a third party/agent to do your visa-run is absolutely illegal, to believe it's legal is mildly said naive, actually (sorry) stupid.

Wether the agent physically crosses the border for you or just puts a chop in the passport, fake or obtained by a bribe, is irrelevant. I posted a few comments of my own 5-cents worth or not. Why?

Myself lives and works for over 30 years abroad, having dealt with immigration offices around Europe and Asia. This does not make me a visa-expert, but some of my experiences put into this board might help others. Myself and as I read the comments, many others show sympathy for what happens at the moment to the people concerned not pointing a finger and laughing at them.

My suggestion a few days ago, write to the embassies, explaining the situation, plead naivety having believed in newspaper ads etc. ("Brian" did just this and copied on the board, hope it helps). The more complains the embassies receive the sooner they wake up. They cannot protect individuals from having done anything against the local laws

wether old or new, but they can stir up the situation a bit on the diplomatic level (1-10 years is absolutely too much) but will do so only if many "complains" received. You leave the country and come back is in a grey area, you leave and

come back with a new visa as well. Some Thai embassies accept it, some (like SIN?) don't. Walking across the border or getting a new visa abroad within 24 hours is not forbidden by the present laws. The commotion at the moment might bring a change of law.

I am not taking the "Thai side" but first of all use common sense and follow one basic rule NEVER GIVE YOUR PASSPORT

TO SOMEBODY ELSE WHOM YOU DO NOT KNOW OR TRUST. I accept the argument mentioned by PSCHEF, company rule.

Your own employer will assist and (let's hope) will work properly. I have to go in person to the imm-office, to get a visa extension, a re-entry or whatever, that's the law or the rule set out. Usually, I do send somebody I can trust. For example the re-entry place refused my messenger MUST COME IN PERSON, but accepts my (non-Thai) wife. Visa extension wants to see me once and than I sign an appointment letter in favour of the person I trust.

The visa-offices still advertise as of this morning in the BKK-Post. 10-15 K for a one-year visa, extensions, work - permit etc.

They do a legal job, as long as they take you along to the authorities, help you fill in the forms, translate for you etc, your passport is in eye side when the agent and you both face the ladies in white. If you want to pay the money for such a service, up to you.

The job becomes illegal if you leave your passport with them and they come back a few days later with a chop showing you visited a neighboring country, which you did not.

I saw some positive remarks in this thread, like leave from BKK-airport at a busy time and imm-line, get a new passport and go to immigration (if necessary pay for the fine for overstay from last recorded entry) and pray.

Sorry when this got too long, everybody, with some exceptions, has my sympathy and I wish good luck. If actions with the embassies help, great, although I am not sure how long it would take. But do me one favour, don't complain about somebody taking the Thai-side, or being harsh or whatever. The matter comes up now. But some who have (I say knowingly) obtained fake chops create problems for all others who took the burden of crossing the border themselves and/or obtained new visas themselves and might not be able to do so in future. I do not hope Thailand will close this loophole, but if so, many can blame the fakes.

[foolwholaughsatdeath]

I find it ironic that the way I first found this very website and forum (along with it's fair share of preachy moderators) was by receiving a email newsletter from the visa agent who provided me with a non-immigrant b visa for a substantial fee.  His name was/is Vince and I'm wondering what the connection between his service and this board is, as I've gotten monthly newsletters from his service for some time all including a link to this forum.

[jaded]

Axel, I don't think anyone can in good faith seriously question the illegalities involved in what has been going on. The primary issue is that the ridiculous severity being applied to deal with something the government has long known about but allowed to continue is not designed to end the problem, it is obviously designed to bring in foreign currency through very high bail charges and fines. The results of this heavy-handedness (and I neither condone nor decry this) may well be a strong worldwide backlash against visiting Thailand. Ironically, many of those being punished so harshly may well be destined to become the high-earners currently being actively encouraged to visit Thailand.

Constructive measures would be more effective than punishment if the issue was about remedy rather than income. For example, an amnesty with a stern warning would scare people enough to avoid agencies. Also, Malaysia grants 3 months on entry. This alone would have slashed the amount of people resorting to 'agencies' a long time ago.

I just have a hard time resorting to a blame culture when people are facing charges more appropriate to a drug offence than violation of a law which has been (more or less) institutionally ignored, if not condoned, for decades.

[capital]

I am a voice in the wilderness Capital and only adding a smigeon of balance here....by no means achieving 50/50. You condone illegality without reservation. If I have been here too long, perhaps you have a way to go yet.

I certainly don't condone illegality. But the blame should not solely lie on the farang IMO and... you just (again IMO) come down a little too harsh on the "suffering" farangs. That's all.

[MaiChai]

Toxins clamp down on corruption combined with the campture of Hambali and the USs demand for tigher security has ended up targeting Thailands cash cow. The Thais need to be seen to be doing something about this, and having an amnesty, otherwise Thailand will become backlisted as a dangerous place for Tourists. I can see the British Foreign Office not recommend British nationals visit Thailand as their safety cannot be guarenteed (basically true; if you can't trust the Government, who can you trust?).

Putting westerners through a barbaric prison and legal system just because they did not follow visa reglations to the dot is over the top.

As you can tell, I am a little upset to hear that Farangs (not just British) are being held responsible for crimes that are after all being committed by Thai people.

This nicly summarises the situation. Just being a tourist does not isolate you from corruption in Thailand; some people from western countries probably have no idea of the level of corruption that goes on here.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Foolwholaughs .....a connection with a visa agent here ...I REJECT THAT  read it all carefully Admins here have NEVER advocated using agents.   We know the legal situation and are mindful of the problems. I checked a little, and it seems your illegal agent is now unavailable for business. Read into that what you will.

[taxexile]

after having read catseyelands account of his visa trip and subsequent arrest,imprisonment and deportation,and assuming it is an accurate account,i find it hard to believe that posters can still think that those who use visa agents will get what they deserve.

but some tourists have now experienced, and others are about to experience a taste of the real thailand,far removed from the bars and beaches,from the videa lounges of khao san,and the elephant rides,and living the dream in a bamboo hut by the sea,from the bubble of existence that 99% percent of foriegners experience here. now we are being "invited " to join the club along with all those thais that get banged up with no regard to that western gold card called human rights,with all those third world unfortunates who fill the jails here,the burmese,cambodians,and hilltribers who due to some minor transgression find themselves behind bars,(without mobiles,and wealthy relatives back home to stump up the bail)

this is the real thailand,this is the full on experience,the falang is no longer the protected species in asia.

equality,at last.

amazing thailand !!

[Axel]

Fully agree to the comments on the harsh punishment and said 1-10 is absolutely too much considering the circumstances. Actually, jail is too much, although it would be difficult to explain as reason that the facilities here are a bit "below standard" to put it politely. How to explain this to the powers? An individual's letter to K. Thaksin does not help.

Embassies? I mentioned this way, keep them flooded and the reaction might be coming, perhaps even from the BFO. If anybody has connections to newspapers or reporters prefreably not here in BKK, it might help to push the issue. The papers might be banned, we had this before. THE SUN, THE MIRROR, BILD, BLICK whatever tabloids to raise the question "What is the BFO, what are the ministries doing". Not to play it too high, but get than the embassies talk and reach a "last-time-agreement" for amnesty.

[parryhandy]

why is it so hard for people to understand. they are sending out a message and getting the cash back from what they maybe have lost by these activities.it is virtually impossible to stop their own inhouse corruption in some cases especially when its top down institutionalised.but by doing it this way the fear of god is being put in place so the customers will not want the product.

dont expect any help from the west either because you will find this is where the push has come from. just imagine how close the terrorist hambil may have been to say planting a bomb at apec and that may bring home the enormity of the situation.embassies will only do what they are legally obligated to do and nothing more.they will not be worried about all these passport renewals because they are obligated to replace them if you have lost or had them stolen.unless they can prove your lying which they cant they will help you with this.

[taxexile]

FROM TODAYS UK PRESS

 

telegraph.co.uk

News home  

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Thailand jails 15 Britons sold bogus visas

By Nicola Woolcock

(Filed: 20/09/2003)

Fifteen Britons who were duped into buying bogus visas have been jailed in Thailand, the Foreign Office said yesterday.

They were arrested as they tried to leave the country when immigration authorities noticed counterfeit stamps in their passports. Each had to raise £4,600 bail, their passports have been confiscated and they cannot leave Thailand until their cases come to court.

If convicted of immigration offences they face maximum jail sentences of 10 years or large fines.

Relatives of the tourists say they are innocent victims of fraud, who paid £26 each for visa extensions at outlets they believed were legitimate.

The Foreign Office admitted that the fraud is posing a "problem" for travellers. Bangkok's European consuls met this week to discuss the situation after Irish, Swiss and Canadian citizens were also jailed.

Among the Britons arrested were Nicholas Walker, Justin Righam, Paul Killey and Aaron Hay, all in their early 20s and from Douglas in the Isle of Man. They were intending to visit Australia, but were arrested as they left Thailand on Sunday.

Auban Walker, Mr Walker's uncle, also from Douglas, said: "They were arrested simply for having the wrong stamps in their passports and were thrown into jail in Bangkok. The Thai police are treating victims of fraud as criminals, but aren't stopping the travel agents who issue these stamps."

A Foreign Office spokesman said: "Our travel advice on Thailand does give a warning about visa fraud and our understanding is that this has become a bit of a problem."

 

FROM TODAYS DAILY TELEGRAPH ,LONDON

 

© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2003. Terms & Conditions of reading.

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[cmep]

This may all sound too easy but if you are American, why don't you make a quick trip to your embassy and report your passport lost. Report it lost and get a new one, just $65. They can issue it in one day and it is good for 1 year. (turn it in later to get the 10 year version but that takes 2 weeks to process.) You can head down to immigration and go through the hassles to get your new stamp and then exit out of the country. No worries about anyone looking deep inside your passport. Or if you are really paranoid, just take a trip down to Sadao and just continue through to the Duty free center, at the duty free just walk down and enter Malaysia. Lose your passport in Malaysia and come back with a completely clean passport and record.

[gooner]

:cool:    THANKS TO EVERYONE THAT POSTS INFO AND COMMENTS.I INTEND TO MAKE THAILAND MY HOME IN 6 MONTHS TIME AND I WILL HAVE TO START DOING THE VISA RUN.MY WORRY IS THAT EVEN IF I DO EVERYTHING ABOVE BOARD AND LEGAL, I AM NOW SCARED THAT SOMETHING MAY STILL BE WRONG WITH THE STAMP.AM I BEING PARANOID?

AS TO SOME OF THE OTHER POSTINGS ON VISA AGENTS I MUST ADMIT THAT ALTHOUGH I HAVE NEVER HAD TO DO A RUN YET I DID FIND IT A SURREAL SITUATION THAT YOU COULD SEND YOUR PASSPORT OUT FOR LITTLE MONEY AND SAVE ALL THE TROUBLE OF TRAVELLING YOURSELF.I ASKED NUMEROUS FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES IF THIS WAS LEGAL AND TO A LETTER THEY ALL SAID IT WAS,WHICH MADE ME THEN ASK THE QUESTION WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE USE THE AGENTS? THANKS TO ALL POSTEES I NOW KNOW THE ANSWER.

THANKS ONCE AGAIN TO EVERYONE THAT POSTS.I CANNOT TELL YOU HOW HELPFUL AND THOUGHT PROVOKING ALL YOUR ADVICE IS.    THANKS     :cool:

[Bob Chittie]

Dr. Pat Pong,

If this sudden change has been forced upon the Thai authorties by the US, then fair enough. I just hope that the current punishments being discussed, 1-10 years in jail and blacklisted for life, don't become realities. If you read the last post, you can see that there are plenty of everyday people who have done their 'research' and initially were told that the agencies were legit. No excuse, i agree, but in my mind, reason for leniancy.

Do you know when they will end the 30 day no visa consecutive stays? How many stays til you are sent home? How will it work? And will it come out of the blue with no warning? Will they also end consecutive toursit visas?

I was at the border four days ago and made a point to ask whether there was any limit to the number of times I could cross over and I was clearly told that there wasn't. Maybe she just hadn't heard from the powers that be yet.

[Bob Chittie]

One more thing Doctor. If they end consecutive tourist visas (not referring to 30 day stays) what will the required period between visas be? Also, would this mean that legitimate frequent tourists would no longer be welcome???

[caughtintheact]

I skimmed through all the posts, and saw no mention of any details concerning the detainess, except some names, nationalities and approximate ages.  Is it possible that they were detained because they were working in boiler rooms, and the phoney visa was a good excuse for nabbing them?  Let no one doubt that the boiler rooms are still functioning, and the profiles could fit.  Note:  For the sea lawyers out there, I didn't say they were working in the boiler rooms, only that they might have been.  Al Capone was finally put in jail for tax evasion in the USA, not for murder.

[picnose]

Or if you are really paranoid, just take a trip down to Sadao and just continue through to the Duty free center, at the duty free just walk down and enter Malaysia. Lose your passport in Malaysia and come back with a completely clean passport and record.

    What is this option. Where is Sadao and does this mean there is a way to bypass Thai immigration checkpoints? More info, please!!!!!!!!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The people WITH visa's are usually bonafide Bob. The idiots that overdo the 30 day permits are not....they become de facto residents. An endangered species.

[Bob Chittie]

The people WITH visa's are usually bonafide Bob. The idiots that overdo the 30 day permits are not....they become de facto residents. An endangered species.

I agree that it increasingly looks like the 30 day stayers are an endangered species. And 10 years on the 30 day stamp is hard to believe. But under thai law, is it illegal? As I said, I was told at immigration in the North that there was no limit, only that a record would be kept. So is a 10 year stay, no matter how crazy it sounds, actually in compliance with the law (assuming he's not working)?

And do you know if they will stop the consecutive tourist visas too meaning even legitimate frequent tourists (like myself) wouldn't be welcome?

[Bob Chittie]

I skimmed through all the posts, and saw no mention of any details concerning the detainess, except some names, nationalities and approximate ages.  Is it possible that they were detained because they were working in boiler rooms, and the phoney visa was a good excuse for nabbing them?  Let no one doubt that the boiler rooms are still functioning, and the profiles could fit.  Note:  For the sea lawyers out there, I didn't say they were working in the boiler rooms, only that they might have been.  Al Capone was finally put in jail for tax evasion in the USA, not for murder.

Interesting point. They get the boiler room people and scare the 'non-complient' visa people at the same time. But what about what Dr. Pat Pong said regarding this whole change in practice being instigated by the US (I'm assuming since Hambali was caugt here)?

[opalhort]

P.S. It's not just about false visas.  When i was in Thai prison, I met a German guy who went for a trip with a friend to Hat Yai and forgot his passport.  He had presently been in that jail for 7 weeks and was possibly looking at a sentence for just forgetting to keep his passport on him.

Does anybody know anything definitive about this issue?  I recall reading somewhere a while back that not having your passport with you at all times was not a crime in and of itself but the police could detain you until that passport could be produced.  I don't recall the source of this information but I do recall that it was somebody passing the word along as opposed to being official or even pseudo-official.  Conceptually, this is reasonable though.

Anybody know the real story?

In Thailand everybody is required to carry an ID card (passport for foreigners) at all times.

As a foreigner, a photo copy of [/b]all pages of the passport will be sufficient if you state that you fear the loss/theft of the original document. If an officer is tough he may require you to show the original at the police station within 24hrs.

A Thai driving license is mostly accepted here as an ID card!

opalhort

[Axel]

A Thai driving license is mostly accepted here as an ID card!

Tks Opalhort. I heard the same, not sure if it is true, also hospitals etc accept because it is like an ID-card signature and picture is on.

Anybody can confirm this?