Abhisit Beats Thaksin In Term Of Ethics, Integrity: Survey

[Ferwert]

My in-house Thai political expert told me, as I mentioned in another earlier posting in this thread, that this ABAC whatever, is Democrat Party affiliated.

That certainly puts into context this all-out Thaksin negativity, researchy type information piece, as was the same last week with another ABAC thing.

One would expect the Democrat party to laud the saintliness of its' leader, and do otherwise for the opposition, by whatever means.

Legitimate sounding polling without attribution about its sponsors is a good way to do this.

Is this true?

And if this is true, why are we expending such intellectual energy on discussing a political information piece from a political party as if it has unaffiliated credibility.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Ferwert

[Ferwert]

Google scientific surveys or polls.

What I'm trying to say is if they make a poll for all colors to participate, Abhisit's points will be very low. It's like if I want to have a Pro-Thaksin poll, I won't go to PAD's zones to ask.

Isn't it a normal practice that when announcing a poll result, they often tell number of people who participate?

Few quick points.

They obviously polled Abhisits supposed base but even then 60% of em voted Thaksin as honest as well!!!

Abhisit can command a high rating as he isn't in charge. He is just the figurehead.

Rabid falangs ganging up on you Koo is a sign of their intense indignation that their high intellects are still ignored by most. Fancy that, Intellegent falang posters not being heeded....

I liked Ferwerts idea of them singing from the same song sheet.

So in four part harmony

SRJ: ......Thaksin - - - -Is - - - a bad, bad, bad, - - - - - -Amen - Abhisit hallelujah hallelujah

Jingting:.........Thaksin.. - - - ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmen - Abhisittttttttttttttttttttttt

Plus: ......................Thaksin - - - - naughty naughty man - -Amen - la l al al la la la la la la la

Animatic:... Thaksin Thaksin thaksin naughty - naught - man - amen - oh yes he isssssssssssss

ALL/ CHORUS Thank god for us falangs,

. . . . . . . . .Who do know everything

. . . . . . . . . .When you Thais all wake up

. . . .. . . . . . .you will see we are right.

But all of those rabid Falangs and Koo82, makes things about even Grandpops.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Ferwert

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Rak Chiang Mai 51 said that they had collected 80,000 signiatures in Chiang Mai...considering it's supposed to be Mr T's stronghold, and with a population of over a million, I am hardly impressed!

[Ferwert]

My in-house Thai political expert told me, as I mentioned in another earlier posting in this thread, that this ABAC whatever, is Democrat Party affiliated.

That certainly puts into context this all-out Thaksin negativity, researchy type information piece, as was the same last week with another ABAC thing.

One would expect the Democrat party to laud the saintliness of its' leader, and do otherwise for the opposition, by whatever means.

Legitimate sounding polling without attribution about its sponsors is a good way to do this.

Is this true?

And if this is true, why are we expending such intellectual energy on discussing a political information piece from a political party as if it has unaffiliated credibility.

Koo82's point about ABAC stuff coming out whenever there has been another pro-democracy red Shirt event of significance, also seems to point to Democrat Party sponsored stuff via these people, as was reported to me.

[Siripon]

n the 1990s Thaksin hid millions of baht's worth of shares in the names of his gardener, maid and driver. His only explanation was 'a honest mistake'. Other people might think it was to manipulate stock and avoid taxes.

Thaksin bought a very nice car for a minister in the military junta of 1991 to 1992 to thank him for a commumications contract.

Thaksin's lawyers gave 2 million baht in a snack box to court officials in 20008

In 2009 Thaksin went to see the military coup leader of Fiji to discuss opportunities for investment and a safe haven.

Apisit has a long way to go to sink to this level in ethics.

[Plus]

That was a Rolls Royce to one of the leaders of a coup that led to Chamlong led uprising against Suchinda, and it was for the satellite concession.

>>>

One of the PDFs, with five slates for signatures is probably not kosher. The the two page PDF also needs a cover - three pages in total.

There's no way two people can carry a 150kg box with a thousand petitions inside, I can't even imagine what this box would look like, what it's made of and how much it could weigh itself. Reds are just talking of their asses here - the point is to create an impression, facts don't matter.

They keep the location secret, as in no one has ever seen them. Right. That was precisely my point.

Maybe it will check out in the end, but it's also likely that they won't submit it when the time comes, in the name of reconciliation or whatever. Then it will be six million petition that never was, they just talked about it.

>>>

ABAC poll is not affiliated with Democrats - where did this come from?

[Koo82]

n the 1990s Thaksin hid millions of baht's worth of shares in the names of his gardener, maid and driver. His only explanation was 'a honest mistake'. Other people might think it was to manipulate stock and avoid taxes.

Thaksin bought a very nice car for a minister in the military junta of 1991 to 1992 to thank him for a commumications contract.

Thaksin's lawyers gave 2 million baht in a snack box to court officials in 20008

In 2009 Thaksin went to see the military coup leader of Fiji to discuss opportunities for investment and a safe haven.

Apisit has a long way to go to sink to this level in ethics.

When buying and selling stock, you don't need to pay tax.

People can list a lot of Khun Thaksin's "sins" because they don't love him. And sure Khun Thaksin is not the only one in Thailand who might did that. I said "might" because I don't believe he did all of what you list.

I just wonder why they didn't bring out serious cases to judge.

After so long, they only could bring out the only case which was the land case. Buyer correct. Seller correct. But buyer's husband must be in jail. Not enough to prove Khun Thaksin is bad to me. This is why his supporters are growing huge like you see today.

Because Khun Thaksin's supporters are too huge, his enemies are too scared. They do everything to stop the reds. But they still cannot. They only can make themselves happy by telling themselves "the reds are paid to do so".

What will be the topics for the next poll?

[Ferwert]

This came from a Thai who has deep roots in political activism, and knows her "way around the block" in Thai politics, so to speak.

Her credibility is attested to by many.

That is where this came from.

If she says ABAC stuff is Democrat Party sourced, it is true in the minds of many, including mine.

Does that clarify it for you Plus?

Edited August 10, 2009 by Ferwert

[Thai at Heart]

Our Clients........

http://www.abacpoll.au.edu/new_innovation/ourclients.html

[Ferwert]

Further to Post #68: "This is why his supporters are growing huge like you see today"

I saw that last night, in the huge Udon Thani pro-democracy Red Shirt rally so well reported in the Domestic media today........!!!!

I reported on it in another thread entitled "Women and the Pro-Democracy Red Shirts" in Thai General Topics Still viewable. It was unceremoniously closed..

It was an interesting phenomenon.

[Siripon]

n the 1990s Thaksin hid millions of baht's worth of shares in the names of his gardener, maid and driver. His only explanation was 'a honest mistake'. Other people might think it was to manipulate stock and avoid taxes.

Thaksin bought a very nice car for a minister in the military junta of 1991 to 1992 to thank him for a commumications contract.

Thaksin's lawyers gave 2 million baht in a snack box to court officials in 20008

In 2009 Thaksin went to see the military coup leader of Fiji to discuss opportunities for investment and a safe haven.

Apisit has a long way to go to sink to this level in ethics.

When buying and selling stock, you don't need to pay tax.

People can list a lot of Khun Thaksin's "sins" because they don't love him. And sure Khun Thaksin is not the only one in Thailand who might did that. I said "might" because I don't believe he did all of what you list.

I just wonder why they didn't bring out serious cases to judge.

After so long, they only could bring out the only case which was the land case. Buyer correct. Seller correct. But buyer's husband must be in jail. Not enough to prove Khun Thaksin is bad to me. This is why his supporters are growing huge like you see today.

Because Khun Thaksin's supporters are too huge, his enemies are too scared. They do everything to stop the reds. But they still cannot. They only can make themselves happy by telling themselves "the reds are paid to do so".

What will be the topics for the next poll?

So why did he hide it in his staff's names. lote of money for a long time? The only reason could be to manipulate stock, and when big money men manipulate stock, it's small investors who don't know what's going on who get hurt.

[animatic]

SRJ: ......Thaksin - - - -Is - - - a bad, bad, bad, - - - - - -Amen - Abhisit hallelujah hallelujah

Jingting:.........Thaksin.. - - - ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmen - Abhisittttttttttttttttttttttt

Plus: ......................Thaksin - - - - naughty naughty man - -Amen - la l al al la la la la la la la

Animatic:... Thaksin Thaksin thaksin naughty - naught - man - amen - oh yes he isssssssssssss

ALL/ CHORUS Thank god for us falangs,

. . . . . . . . .Who do know everything

. . . . . . . . . .When you Thais all wake up

. . . .. . . . . . .you will see we are right.

Rather anemic synopsis Pops.

You need not be local to see clearly what's happening.

It's also easy enough to see when people have the wool pulled over their eyes,

and or an agenda to support. Your cause is not so clear, but obviously something contrary in mind.

Foresight gives you a chance at a better world,

hindsight always plays catchup, even when the cause is now lost.

[animatic]

My in-house Thai political expert told me, as I mentioned in another earlier posting in this thread, that this ABAC whatever, is Democrat Party affiliated.

That certainly puts into context this all-out Thaksin negativity, researchy type information piece, as was the same last week with another ABAC thing.

One would expect the Democrat party to laud the saintliness of its' leader, and do otherwise for the opposition, by whatever means.

Legitimate sounding polling without attribution about its sponsors is a good way to do this.

Is this true?

And if this is true, why are we expending such intellectual energy on discussing a political information piece from a political party as if it has unaffiliated credibility.

Koo82's point about ABAC stuff coming out whenever there has been another pro-democracy red Shirt event of significance, also seems to point to Democrat Party sponsored stuff via these people, as was reported to me.

Or the business world, directly connected to ABAC by logic,

wanting to stave off another political nose dive into increased financial crisis.

[Thai at Heart]

Who pays ABAC to conduct these surveys? Where could anyone find out who pays for these surveys?

If they list their clients as various ministries, shouldn't in the hope of getting a completely impartial result, they declare if their client is a ministry or not?

It may not be that they are connected to the Dems anymore than any other party. They would appear to be quite reliant on government contracts in which case the govt of the day is their master.

I mean it isn't quite the same as surveying to find out if someone likes Jif or Mr. Muscle.

[mc2]

Our Clients........

http://www.abacpoll.au.edu/new_innovation/ourclients.html

interesting.

the Thai army and the PMs office are sponsers of the ABAC polls.

i wonder how much influence they have re the questions and the outcome ...

[animatic]

This came from a Thai who has deep roots in political activism, and knows her "way around the block" in Thai politics, so to speak.

Her credibility is attested to by many.

That is where this came from.

If she says ABAC stuff is Democrat Party sourced, it is true in the minds of many, including mine.

Does that clarify it for you Plus?

Point 1 ) Around the block or round the bend...

point 2 ) Clarified like 3 week old butter in 35° heat,

a bit green and fuzzy to my tastes.

Since ABAC isn't a business per se, they call them sponsors,

but in reality they are clients paying for a service to be delivered.

D-TV could command a poll on a subject, but they might not like

the unbiased results...

Any one can command a poll to be taken and pay the service fee,

no doubt depending on size of sampling segment,

and number of questions and collation methods agreed on in advance.

Edited August 10, 2009 by animatic

[Thai at Heart]

This came from a Thai who has deep roots in political activism, and knows her "way around the block" in Thai politics, so to speak.

Her credibility is attested to by many.

That is where this came from.

If she says ABAC stuff is Democrat Party sourced, it is true in the minds of many, including mine.

Does that clarify it for you Plus?

Point 1 ) Around the block or round the bend...

point 2 ) Clarified like 3 week old butter in 35° heat,

a bit green and fuzzy to my tastes.

Since ABAC isn't a business per se, they call them sponsors,

but in reality they are clients paying for a service to be delivered.

D-TV could command a poll on a subject, but they might not like

the unbiased results...

Any one can command a poll to be taken and pay the service fee,

no doubt depending on size of sampling segment,

and number of questions and collation methods agreed on in advance.

I never put much stall by ABAC polls, but since they list a lot of government agencies as their clients, it would be most useful if ABAC declared that a given survey was "sponsored" by a government agency.

[Ricardo]

When buying and selling stock, you don't need to pay tax.

Although it would have been nice, if he'd paid at least a few baht ought of the staggering profits on the deal, to help his country and the poor who he claims to stand for !

People can list a lot of Khun Thaksin's "sins" because they don't love him. And sure Khun Thaksin is not the only one in Thailand who might did that. I said "might" because I don't believe he did all of what you list.

I just wonder why they didn't bring out serious cases to judge.

Perhaps because he skipped the country, so that all the trials are frozen, surely he wasn't afraid of what the verdicts might have been, being totally innocent ?

After so long, they only could bring out the only case which was the land case. Buyer correct. Seller correct. But buyer's husband must be in jail. Not enough to prove Khun Thaksin is bad to me. This is why his supporters are growing huge like you see today.

But you do accept, Thaksin broke the law, which exists to prevent corruption or the appearance of corruption, by senior politicians ? And that Thaksin is the politician, who broke the law, not his former-wife who bought the land, so why should she have been found guilty ?

Because Khun Thaksin's supporters are too huge, his enemies are too scared. They do everything to stop the reds. But they still cannot. They only can make themselves happy by telling themselves "the reds are paid to do so".

Perhaps Rak Chiang Mai 51's guns, and bully-boy tactics, give them grounds for feeling scared ? Why do these alleged democrats feel the need to get violent, with anybody who doesn't agree with them, rather than allowing & defending their right to hold a differing opinion ?

What will be the topics for the next poll?

My comments in red above./color]

At some point in the next few years, there will be an election, when I personally predict Abhisit will get more votes than Thaksin's nominee, but it will continue to result in a coalition-government, as none of these people/parties currently achieves an outright-majority in the country.

Meanwhile Thailand is at least under a democratically-elected government again, not a military one, or a 6-month caretaker-government, progress of a sort.

And nobody doubts that the election will eventually be held, just when it might be, and whether the TRT/PPP/PTP will be ready to contest the election once it arrives. A clear leader would be a step in the right direction. But it can't be Thaksin himself, he's ruled himself out, by fleeing justice and the country. So his real electoral-popularity is unlikely to be tested in the near future.

[Ferwert]

Who pays ABAC to conduct these surveys? Where could anyone find out who pays for these surveys?

If they list their clients as various ministries, shouldn't in the hope of getting a completely impartial result, they declare if their client is a ministry or not?

It may not be that they are connected to the Dems anymore than any other party. They would appear to be quite reliant on government contracts in which case the govt of the day is their master.

I mean it isn't quite the same as surveying to find out if someone likes Jif or Mr. Muscle.

The fact they issued two back-to-back research studies within a two-week period, extremely negative toward Mr. Thaksin, is enough to make one question allegiances. The consistency screams out for explanation.

And like Koo82 says, sure a lot of blatant anti-Thaksin stuff coming out of the woodwork all-of-a-sudden. Coincidentally??? as this "citizens supplication" is winding its' way through the process. This sure makes one question ABAC stuff.

So when an astute Thai political source dismissed ABAC information as being linked to the Democrat Party, this fits the puzzle.

But what do I know.

[Samuian]

The fact they issued two back-to-back research studies within a two-week period, extremely negative toward Mr. Thaksin,

Well never mind it was he himself who delivered the script in all details

needed and as of today he and his entourage work very hard to prove that...

[Ferwert]

When buying and selling stock, you don't need to pay tax.

What will be the topics for the next poll?

My comments in red above./color]

At some point in the next few years, there will be an election, when I personally predict Abhisit will get more votes than Thaksin's nominee, but it will continue to result in a coalition-government, as none of these people/parties currently achieves an outright-majority in the country.

Meanwhile Thailand is at least under a democratically-elected government again, not a military one, or a 6-month caretaker-government, progress of a sort.

And nobody doubts that the election will eventually be held, just when it might be, and whether the TRT/PPP/PTP will be ready to contest the election once it arrives. A clear leader would be a step in the right direction. But it can't be Thaksin himself, he's ruled himself out, by fleeing justice and the country. So his real electoral-popularity is unlikely to be tested in the near future.

Who says it can't be Thaksin.......

The military? the other parties to the military coup?

The parties to what the Pro-democracy red Shirts call the 2nd. coup?

The military coup was illegitimate, they know it and the purpose/result of that coup are not binding.

The electorate will decide who will run in the next election, and only them.

If it is Thaksin, stop him politically via an election if that is your wish - the only legitimate, democratic way.

Dont be afraid of electoral democracy!

Why should the best Prime Minister Thailand ever had (according to millions) be excluded from an election.

Doesn't make sense.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Ferwert

[SpoliaOpima]

So I asked my in-house, pro-democracy Red Shirt political activist.

Now there's an unbiased source.

I asked my non-aligned, non-hillbilly Thai political expert, who said the poll results sound pretty representative.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

And according to many millions he is also one of the worst Thailand has had. The man still broke the law. This argument is getting so tired. He broke the law, simple as that. And now he is unacceptable to many many millions.

[Ferwert]

Well Sao Jiang Mai, lets let the electorate decide shall we.

I have great respect for the Thai electorate.

If he was convicted without political prejudice, than you are correct.

The pro-democracy red Shirts consider his conviction a "judicial coup".

With that interpretation the man did not break a law, and you are incorrect.

The electorate will decide. I have great confidence and esteem for them in Thailand.

[hammered]

Well Sao Jiang Mai, lets let the electorate decide shall we.

I have great respect for the Thai electorate.

If he was convicted without political prejudice, than you are correct.

The pro-democracy red Shirts consider his conviction a "judicial coup".

With that interpretation the man did not break a law, and you are incorrect.

The electorate will decide. I have great confidence and esteem for them in Thailand.

The elctorate in a democracy elect the legislature who make the laws and judges interpret them. The electorate do not decide guilt or innocence in a democracy because of seperation of powers. However popular or hated a person is they should in a democracy be judged by the law. That is abasic tenet of democracy.

Anyway talking of law breaking things are so delicate right now that we could easily see another coup. If we do it will be interesting to see who supports and opposes it. Usually those in power dont want a coup and those out of power dont mind the opportunity that comes from change.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Sorry, you are incorrect. He did break the law. The law is a fact, it wasn't interpreted. He had no right to sign that document. Simple as that. And sixty million people could (but don't) want him back, but if he broke the law then that overides any popularity contest.

And I lived through Thaksin's era, there was nothing democratic about it. I am part of the press which he tried to stifle. It is ironic that one of your pet peeves is the biased press. Do you not remember how biased the press was during Thaksin's era? Not only biased but bullied. Come on, please try not to invent arguments from thin air.

[Ferwert]

Hello Hammered.

You are right about separation of powers as you stated.

The electorate will ultimately decide if the pro-democracy red Shirts are correct about what they claim was a second coup, which invalidates all judicial acts associated therewith.

If they are correct about this 2nd. coup, than legalities are void and nullified based on their illegitimacy.

Regarding another coup, For the red Shirts, that would be a third coup.

I dont think anyone has the 'balls' for that.

That is the beauty of elections. They serve as 'deciders'.

They identify the majority, leading to majority rule.

End of debate.

[animatic]

Hello Hammered.

You are right about separation of powers as you stated.

The electorate will ultimately decide if the pro-democracy red Shirts are correct about what they claim was a second coup,

which invalidates all judicial acts associated therewith.

If they are correct about this 2nd. coup, than legalities are void and nullified based on their illegitimacy.

Regarding another coup, For the red Shirts, that would be a third coup.

I dont think anyone has the 'balls' for that.

That is the beauty of elections. They serve as 'deciders'.

They identify the majority, leading to majority rule.

End of debate.

More spurious arguments from your obvious agenda.

Spread confusion, sow doubt, mislead and obfuscate.

The electorate doesn't invalidate laws made by parliaments they elected.

Except in the rare cases of referendums, which is not the case here.

So the electorate doesn't invalidate prior laws, nor legalities,

UNLESS voting on a constitution, as they did. Done deal.

Elections in Thailand decide who shall be MP's, they don't decide laws, MP's in Parliament decide laws.

Attorney's General in the Executive apply laws, and Judges in Courts interpret laws in their application.

Red Shirts do not decide laws and their interpretations any more than Thaksin PR shills interpret truth,

Edited August 10, 2009 by animatic

[Ferwert]

Sorry, you are incorrect. He did break the law. The law is a fact, it wasn't interpreted. He had no right to sign that document. Simple as that. And sixty million people could (but don't) want him back, but if he broke the law then that overides any popularity contest.

And I lived through Thaksin's era, there was nothing democratic about it. I am part of the press which he tried to stifle. It is ironic that one of your pet peeves is the biased press. Do you not remember how biased the press was during Thaksin's era? Not only biased but bullied. Come on, please try not to invent arguments from thin air.

When Thaksin started to take legal actions against the media, were the opening salvo's of the subsequent three-year "Thaksin demonization campaign".

The media began to walk to the drumbeat of their masters, the political elite who eventually were succesful in deposing him. Although the pro-democracy red Shirts claim it took two coups to accomplish this.

The media at that time began to fabricate stories, and reporting them as fact. Shades of the media anti-Thaksin campaign since then.

Thaksin began to fight back.

This was in fact a political struggle, with the media being a large part of it.

Had nothing to do with "freedom of the Press" as the media tried to frame it, and everything to do with political struggle.

The 'democracy part' of Thaksin's reign was the electoral means through which he came to power.

And dont discount the voters in that process. They knew exactly what they were doing. To discredit them as a way to eliminate electoral democracy according to the PAD/old paternalistic politics is not democratic.

Those electoral traditions need to be resurrected if Thailand hopes to 'right the ship'

[Jingthing]

And I lived through Thaksin's era, there was nothing democratic about it. I am part of the press which he tried to stifle.

Thanks for the reminder. Thaksin the anti-democratic bully in power was even scarier than Thaksin out of power leading his failed revolutions.