Hostility Towards Farang Women?

[inan]

Wow. This thread is so far off my life experience that I’m wondering if some of you are even living on the same planet! I had no idea that you could generalise about a group of vastly different people from different countries, with different life experiences in this way. It sounds like some of the guys on here have had some bad experiences they have yet to work through. But reading their opinions on here it’s hardly surprising. If they go through life with the same attitude they are displaying on here then they’re not going to attract the nicest people, or have the easiest ride. And if they use the same set of beliefs they are demonstrating on here to rationalise their life experiences, well even the most innocent encounter will be given a negative explanation.

On the other hand, if a sexist war that is marginalising men is blazing away in the western world, I am going to get my eyes checked. I have never encountered, seen or discussed sexism or feminism. Maybe I am lucky, but to me a person is a person. Male, female, black, white, christian, animist, it doesn’t matter. I take them for who they are, not what they may ‘represent’. If someone holds a door open for me I’ll smile and say thank you. Never for even a millisecond will I ever put it down to anything to do with sex. Never. It’s just a common courtesy, and one I extend to other people too. I was taught to be polite and considerate

If I am living on a different planet to some of you, then from what I have read about yours on here, I’m lucky. I think I’ll stay where I am and continue enjoying my life with the lovely people I live, work and socialise with. People that never seek to judge or categorise someone because of the physical attributes they were born with. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to visit one day.

[Boon Mee]

Wow. This thread is so far off my life experience that I’m wondering if some of you are even living on the same planet! I had no idea that you could generalise about a group of vastly different people from different countries, with different life experiences in this way. It sounds like some of the guys on here have had some bad experiences they have yet to work through. But reading their opinions on here it’s hardly surprising. If they go through life with the same attitude they are displaying on here then they’re not going to attract the nicest people, or have the easiest ride. And if they use the same set of beliefs they are demonstrating on here to rationalise their life experiences, well even the most innocent encounter will be given a negative explanation.

On the other hand, if a sexist war that is marginalising men is blazing away in the western world, I am going to get my eyes checked. I have never encountered, seen or discussed sexism or feminism. Maybe I am lucky, but to me a person is a person. Male, female, black, white, christian, animist, it doesn’t matter. I take them for who they are, not what they may ‘represent’. If someone holds a door open for me I’ll smile and say thank you. Never for even a millisecond will I ever put it down to anything to do with sex. Never. It’s just a common courtesy, and one I extend to other people too. I was taught to be polite and considerate

If I am living on a different planet to some of you, then from what I have read about yours on here, I’m lucky. I think I’ll stay where I am and continue enjoying my life with the lovely people I live, work and socialise with. People that never seek to judge or categorise someone because of the physical attributes they were born with. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to visit one day.

Where is this lovely place then, inan?

[Ian Curtis]

I've noticed a common trend on some sites about Thailand, and that is that there seems to be an awful lot of open hostility towards western women. Am I imagining things, or are there a lot of ex-pats in BKK with serious issues about the fairer sex?

Don't get me wrong, I haven't seen anything offensive here. But another site I visited was overrun by chauvenistic <deleted> who did almost nothing but gloat about the 'subservient' women they were dating, and how much they hated western women - essentially for not being mindless f*ckdolls, which is what these guys thought women should be, apparently.

I don't want you to think I'm off on a huge femenist rant here, I'm just wondering what I'm in for. I'm moving to Thailand next month, what kind of people should i expect? What is the ratio of moronic pigs to normal people among the ex-pats in BKK? What kind of problems have you experienced?

Any information would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

removed url

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Baba,

Stay with it and hang loose. There are many of us western men who have no axe to grind.

Ian Curtis

[sbaker8688]

Wow. This thread is so far off my life experience that I’m wondering if some of you are even living on the same planet! I had no idea that you could generalise about a group of vastly different people from different countries, with different life experiences in this way. It sounds like some of the guys on here have had some bad experiences they have yet to work through. But reading their opinions on here it’s hardly surprising. If they go through life with the same attitude they are displaying on here then they’re not going to attract the nicest people, or have the easiest ride. And if they use the same set of beliefs they are demonstrating on here to rationalise their life experiences, well even the most innocent encounter will be given a negative explanation.

On the other hand, if a sexist war that is marginalising men is blazing away in the western world, I am going to get my eyes checked. I have never encountered, seen or discussed sexism or feminism. Maybe I am lucky, but to me a person is a person. Male, female, black, white, christian, animist, it doesn’t matter. I take them for who they are, not what they may ‘represent’. If someone holds a door open for me I’ll smile and say thank you. Never for even a millisecond will I ever put it down to anything to do with sex. Never. It’s just a common courtesy, and one I extend to other people too. I was taught to be polite and considerate

If I am living on a different planet to some of you, then from what I have read about yours on here, I’m lucky. I think I’ll stay where I am and continue enjoying my life with the lovely people I live, work and socialise with. People that never seek to judge or categorise someone because of the physical attributes they were born with. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to visit one day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where on earth are you from? You either 1) most certainly do not live in the states, or 2) you are not male, or 3) you really *do* need to "get your eyes checked" as you speak of above.

First off, sure you can generalize about groups of vastly different people from different countries. I'd generalize that most people who lived in America between 1960-1970 were caucasian. I'd generalize that most people who live in Thailand now are somewhat off-white in color, and have black hair. I'd generalize that most are buddhist, for that matter. Generalizations can also be made about many other phenomenae, whether social, political, economic, etc. Don't buy into this "you can't ever generalize about anything" crap. It's the biggest lie you'll ever hear.

You say you haven't encountered sexism or feminism. If you are a western male, especially in America, I'd say that's either impossible, or you are living in "special circumstances" which I won't elaborate on because it's far beyond the scope of this simple post. All you have to do to encounter sexism and feminism is work in a white collar position in almost any corporation. Surely you'll encounter affirmative-action programs to promote women. In the last corporate job I had, there was a company-wide moratorium on any male promotions at all.

Perhaps you are so used to sexism and feminism that you can't see it, because it's "normal" so to speak. You grew up with it, it's always there and always has been, and you don't know anything different. You can't see western female inner hostility towards men because you've "normalized" it. A girl could stand right next to you and say "I don't need a *man* for *anything*!" and the comment would go right over your head. It would never "ring a bell" to you that you just witnessed an inner hostility towards men. You'd never "put two and two together." Entirely possible. In fact, this affects a lot of people.

Or maybe you are indeed living on a different planet, like you say. Stay there - it's a much nicer place.

[sbk]

Nice try, but can you make those same broad generalizations about the US now? I think not, check the 2000 federal census if you don't believe me.

As for encountering sexism, certainly I have. As for encountering feminism, I don't know, I am not a sexist male.

[sbk]

ob, BTW sbaker, forgot to point out, that it is 2005, not 1970. In case you hadn't noticed. We are in the 21st century now

[sbaker8688]

ob, BTW sbaker, forgot to point out, that it is 2005,  not 1970. In case you hadn't noticed. We are in the 21st century now 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd love to know what your point is, either of them, if you actually have one. If your point is that you have the skill and aptitude to enable you to actually read a calendar - that's fascinating. Really.

[taxexile]

On the other hand, if a sexist war that is marginalising men is blazing away in the western world, I am going to get my eyes checked. I have never encountered, seen or discussed sexism or feminism.

then you need to get out more.

although i dont hold with a lot of what has been said on this post and you should not take the sweeping generalisations at face value , but read between the lines a bit , the pendulum of equality has i believe swung too far.

the world of advertising has always been quick to pick up the zeitgeist and if you watch advertising on western tv or read ads in western media you will soon notice that the male is often the object of constant ridicule at the hands of the female , if this process were reversed it would be deemed to be insulting to women and taken off the air.

these are the subliminal images that enter our subconscious and help to form our views.

a re- alignment of both male attitudes and womens demands is long overdue in the interests of better relations between men and women.

[sbaker8688]

Maybe I am lucky, but to me a person is a person. Male, female, black, white, christian, animist, it doesn’t matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You certainly don't live in the west. And you especially don't live in America. Because there's no such thing as "a person is a person" in America.

Haven't you ever heard of affirmative-action?

What about the movement for reparations for slavery for blacks?

What about the Congressional Black Caucus - ever heard of that? It's a group within Congress - the government itself - specifically organized on race. Now, a Congressional White Caucus would be racist and heresy. But a Congressional Black Caucus has never caused anyone to even bat so much as an eye.

What about the NAACP? Ever heard of that? What about Rainbow/PUSH? What about NOW - the National Organization for Women? Ever heard of that one?

What about any of a thousand different Jewish organizations that seek to promote the interests of Jews in America? Or any of a thousand different Latino organizations?

Still think "a person is a person, male, female, black, white?" What planet did you say you live on again? Can you give me directions on how to get there? Perhaps I could join you?

[kat]

On the other hand, if a sexist war that is marginalising men is blazing away in the western world, I am going to get my eyes checked. I have never encountered, seen or discussed sexism or feminism.

then you need to get out more.

although i dont hold with a lot of what has been said on this post and you should not take the sweeping generalisations at face value , but read between the lines a bit , the pendulum of equality has i believe swung too far.

the world of advertising has always been quick to pick up the zeitgeist and if you watch advertising on western tv or read ads in western media you will soon notice that the male is often the object of constant ridicule at the hands of the female , if this process were reversed it would be deemed to be insulting to women and taken off the air.

these are the subliminal images that enter our subconscious and help to form our views.

a re- alignment of both male attitudes and womens demands is long overdue in the interests of better relations between men and women.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand and can relate partially to what you are saying. I do believe there is an increasing number of ridiculous or emasculating depictions of men in the media. There are also humiliating depictions of women in the media. Perhaps it has evened out, but you only notice an increase rather than a similar frequency of humiliating or condescending depictions of women. But yes, I have noticed your point about the portrayl of men in the media. How would yo define this as "equality" swinging too far? Less humilating depictions of men? Were you one to notice this phenemenon when it involved women? And what attitudes would you like to see "realigned"?

Maybe I am lucky, but to me a person is a person. Male, female, black, white, christian, animist, it doesn’t matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now, a Congressional White Caucus would be racist and heresy. But a Congressional Black Caucus has never caused anyone to even bat so much as an eye.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's because a Congressional White Caucus would be HISTORY. It's already been done with the "Founding" White Fathers, Slavery, Jim Crow, treatisies that robbed Native Americans of their land, racist and sexist hiring, remuneration, and housing policies, and red lining in urban areas.

If you don't like the changes that come with the recognition of past mistakes and human rights, then perhaps you should find another planet. But I have to warn you - you'll probably be a minority.

Or you can move to Thailand.

[inan]

Okay now I’m even more certain I live on a different planet to most of you – and very happy I am about it too!

I don’t think men are being marginalised at all, just as I don’t think, in the circles I mix in, the women I know are suppressed in any way. Maybe the circles I mix in are different, or maybe I just don’t have a chip on my shoulder, or seek out inequalities. Either way, I’m glad I live where and how I do as some of you sound ###### miserable!

Reality is what you perceive it to be. I’m a woman living in the UK. I work in advertising and I’m paid handsomely for it – as much as the men I work with. I can assure you that in not one of the agencies I work for has there been any agenda to ridicule men (or women for that matter). Actually, most advertising creatives are men (and no, that’s not because women are held back in any way).

Yes to me a person IS a person. I am aware that that is not always so for others (sbaker a case in point!), but to me it is that simple. I judge a person by how they behave, not by their physical attributes. I don’t know why you find that so shocking – my family, friends and colleagues are like this too.

I think some of you guys should get a life. Start living a little more and over-analysing a little less. Anger and bitterness are bad for the mind and bad for your health. For every ball-breaking, feminist bitch you get wound up over, you’re missing 1,000 lovely, intelligent, happy women who would make fantastic girlfriends or friends.

And no, I’m not naïve or sheltered, just happy. I seek out positive people and positive experiences in my life and it’s serving me very well.

[sbk]

ob, BTW sbaker, forgot to point out, that it is 2005,  not 1970. In case you hadn't noticed. We are in the 21st century now 

I'd love to know what your point is, either of them, if you actually have one. If your point is that you have the skill and aptitude to enable you to actually read a calendar - that's fascinating. Really.

My point being that you seem to have your attitudes stuck in the 70's . It's time you faced up to the reality that the world has moved on, and seems to have left you behind. For someone who isn't hostile, you certainly come across so, did you know that?

It's interesting that the traditional roles espoused by many men on this forum are, if one paid attention to their history, strictly late 19th to 20th century middle class values. Certainly the working poor in the US/UK/Europe never had the luxury of the wife staying at home and raising the kids. And, until fairly late in the 19th century/early 20th, the entire family worked; mom dad and kids.

And as far as the idea that the 'traditional' sexual roles apply in Thailand, again I say it is luxury confined to the emerging middle class and the upper classes. My in-laws (who started out quite poor) certainly don't follow those "traditional" values. I would say my in-laws are far more 'traditional' than any middle class townsperson. They have lived a rural life their entire lives (they are middle 60's). When they first started my father-in-law went fishing while my mother-in-law stayed home growing rice, husking coconuts and doing other hard gardening labor. After they earned enough money to buy land (for coconuts) they both stayed, he got the coconuts down from the trees while she gathered them up (not so easy, I have done it, each coconut weighs up to 4k and they were doing hundreds every day). They both cleared the land, carried the coconuts. My husband has an incredible story of his mother carrying 40k bags of dried coconuts balanced on her head down the mountain. Hardly the "feminine thai" image that is espoused here.

Edited March 13, 2005 by sbk

[peterzxr]

ob, BTW sbaker, forgot to point out, that it is 2005,  not 1970. In case you hadn't noticed. We are in the 21st century now 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd love to know what your point is, either of them, if you actually have one. If your point is that you have the skill and aptitude to enable you to actually read a calendar - that's fascinating. Really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, that's it. As a person I'm finding this guy offensive. Can someone pleeeeease give him a holiday.

[peterzxr]

Maybe I am lucky, but to me a person is a person. Male, female, black, white, christian, animist, it doesn’t matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You certainly don't live in the west. And you especially don't live in America. Because there's no such thing as "a person is a person" in America.

Haven't you ever heard of affirmative-action?

What about the movement for reparations for slavery for blacks?

What about the Congressional Black Caucus - ever heard of that? It's a group within Congress - the government itself - specifically organized on race. Now, a Congressional White Caucus would be racist and heresy. But a Congressional Black Caucus has never caused anyone to even bat so much as an eye.

What about the NAACP? Ever heard of that? What about Rainbow/PUSH? What about NOW - the National Organization for Women? Ever heard of that one?

What about any of a thousand different Jewish organizations that seek to promote the interests of Jews in America? Or any of a thousand different Latino organizations?

Still think "a person is a person, male, female, black, white?" What planet did you say you live on again? Can you give me directions on how to get there? Perhaps I could join you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually forget a holiday - can a nice mod send hime to another planet please???

[No beleeeeve!]

I think one can have preferences without them being prejudices.

As to generalizing about groups of people, you CAN do exactly that. It is what scientific research is built on. How can you say that culture, language, geography, history, etc. doesn't have an influence on groups of people? That influence can be grouped, aka as a generalization, studied and learned from.

For example, is it wrong/discriminatory to state that most Thai people have black hair? No, it is an observation. If you say that because they have black hair, they are (insert some negative judgement here) that the statement becomes prejudice. If I say most Thai people speak the Thai language. That is a generalization although I didn't survey all the Thai people in the world. Are there some Thai people who do not speak Thai? Sure. Does that mean the minority who don't speak Thai negate the majority who do and therefore make the genealization false? No, it doesn't.

People who keep saying you cannot generalize at all ("All people are different") really need to understand there are "trends" in behavior but it is not absolute. So, to say many people may act a certain way of course does not mean they ALL act that way. To say you cannot generalize you ignore influences from culture, language and the others I mentioned about. You cannot have a decent conversation by saying "not all people do such and such...." Of course not all.

Two cents only.....

[Boon Mee]

I think we should get Boris to weigh in here.

Sort this mess out!

[cdnvic]

I think we should get Boris to weigh in here.

Sort this mess out!

>slap!<

[Boon Mee]

I think we should get Boris to weigh in here.

Sort this mess out!

>slap!<

Hey! Give Boris a break. He just posted an abject apology to sbk over in another thread...

[cdnvic]

I think we should get Boris to weigh in here.

Sort this mess out!

>slap!<

Hey! Give Boris a break. He just posted an abject apology to sbk over in another thread...

I'll be right back, I gotta go buy a lottery ticket.

cv

[Boon Mee]

I think we should get Boris to weigh in here.

Sort this mess out!

>slap!<

Hey! Give Boris a break. He just posted an abject apology to sbk over in another thread...

I'll be right back, I gotta go buy a lottery ticket.

cv

Chok Dee Krup!

[sbk]

I don' t think it was an abject apology to me, just a decent one. It's all anyone ever really wants when they are once again PROVEN CORRECT!

Sorry guys, couldn't resist. I am a woman after all

Edited March 14, 2005 by sbk

[sbaker8688]

ob, BTW sbaker, forgot to point out, that it is 2005,  not 1970. In case you hadn't noticed. We are in the 21st century now 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd love to know what your point is, either of them, if you actually have one. If your point is that you have the skill and aptitude to enable you to actually read a calendar - that's fascinating. Really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point being that you seem to have your attitudes stuck in the 70's . It's time you faced up to the reality that the world has moved on, and seems to have left you behind. For someone who isn't hostile, you certainly come across so, did you know that?

It's interesting that the traditional roles espoused by many men on this forum are, if one paid attention to their history, strictly late 19th to 20th century middle class values. Certainly the working poor in the US/UK/Europe never had the luxury of the wife staying at home and raising the kids. And, until fairly late in the 19th century/early 20th, the entire family worked; mom dad and kids.

And as far as the idea that the 'traditional' sexual roles apply in Thailand, again I say it is luxury confined to the emerging middle class and the upper classes. My in-laws (who started out quite poor) certainly don't follow those "traditional" values. I would say my in-laws are far more 'traditional' than any middle class townsperson. They have lived a rural life their entire lives (they are middle 60's). When they first started my father-in-law went fishing while my mother-in-law stayed home growing rice, husking coconuts and doing other hard gardening labor. After they earned enough money to buy land (for coconuts) they both stayed, he got the coconuts down from the trees while she gathered them up (not so easy, I have done it, each coconut weighs up to 4k and they were doing hundreds every day). They both cleared the land, carried the coconuts. My husband has an incredible story of his mother carrying 40k bags of dried coconuts balanced on her head down the mountain. Hardly the "feminine thai" image that is espoused here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a nice post, expressed reasonably articulately enough, and you certainly have a right to your opinion. But the post largely has nothing to do with anything I have ever said.

You speak of traditional 19th and 20th century values, whether the whole family worked or just the male, blah blah. Interesting. But I have spoken of none of these things. In fact, you can find a post on here somewhere where I've said that I hope my future wife makes as much money for the family as she possibly can.

You speak of whether or not the traditional sex roles still apply in Thailand. You have told stories of women harvesting coconuts. But I have said nothing regarding traditional sex roles, much less whether or not they still apply in Thailand.

What I have said is that western women have an inner hostility to men. Period. Paragraph. And I have said that this inner hostility was/is caused by feminism. Period. Paragraph. And I have said that, in places where the feminist movement did not take place, or where it did not take place near to the degree that it did in the west, you can still find women that do not have this inner hostility towards men. PERIOD. PARAGRAPH. That is essentially all that I have said. Any other points I have made here or there were "gravy" and were mere responses to the odd post here or there.

I have not discussed whether or not women should be allowed to have an opinion, or to express it. I have not discussed whether or not women should be allowed to work. I have not discussed the FEMININITY of women at all (rather the FEMINISM of women). My points have largely been these three: 1) western women have an inner hostility to men, 2) this hostility was/is caused by the feminist movement, and 3) you can go where the feminist movement never occured, or where it occured much more mildly, and still find desirable women who do not have the inner hostility towards men. That's what I have said. Period. Paragraph.

Another thing I keep running into is posts like "well if you'd just be honest and say you have a natural preference for Thai women, instead of making up excuses that western women are bad so that you can then pursue your Thai fetish unmolested, we wouldn't have a problem." The problem is, that's not the problem. In fact, truth be known, my "natural preference," all other things being equal, is for a "white" woman. Now, are asian women attractive? Sure - very. Would I be wanting for anyone or anything else were you to "give" me an attractive asian woman (again - all things being equal)? No, of course not. I'd be quite happy. But again, if truth be known, if I have a "natural tendancy" at all, then all things being equal that natural tendancy is for a "white" or "caucasian" woman. In fact, I "corrected the record" more than one time above by saying that an eastern (NOT western) European, or Russian woman would be fine too. They are not feminist to the degree that their western counterparts are, and do not have the inner hostility towards men. But I don't know eastern Europe and Russia. Never been there. I know Thailand (at least better than those other places). So that's where I'm headed. I only bring this up because people keep addressing it in their posts, and again attributing words, actions, deeds, or sentiments to me that I do not possess.

You state that my attitudes are from the 70's, and I need to face the fact that the world has "moved on." I do not find this statement very useful. Personally, I don't care what era my attitudes are from (only that they are correct and that they are mine), and I already know that the (western) world has "moved on." That's why we are having this discussion. And that's why I'm coming to Thailand. The world has "moved on" and so I myself am "moving on."

Have a nice day.

[sbk]

My my, it is all me me me with you isn't it? I guess my post wasn't clear enough for you then as only the first paragraph actually had anything to do with you at all. If you look more closely at the start of the second paragraph I distinctly can see written "many men on this forum".

Most of your comments really aren't worth addressing as you just keep saying the same old tired thing over and over again and expect everyone to believe it as gospel truth. If you can't get your point across you resort to childish insults. Whats the point?

And yes, it is surprising that an idiot such as myself (who can just barely figure out the calendar) is capable of a reasoned, intelligent, informed post, isn't it?

So, to reiterate, the latter half of the post really had nothing to do with you at all.

[peterzxr]

.......I already know that the (western) world has "moved on." That's why we are having this discussion. And that's why I'm coming to Thailand. The world has "moved on" and so I myself am "moving on."

Have a nice day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, right, that's the whole point - it's not about western women but the society they live in and the experiences that have shaped their lives that MAY have turned SOME into the kind of people that you hate.

Frankly, western society ain't done much for your views or attitudes either mate - your posts (particularly the earlier ones) are written with such animosity and tunnel vison as to be the best argument against yourself.

Personally ladies, I would urge you to encourage this person to continue in the same vein, therefore making your argument and proving your point for you.

[BabaYaga]

"Personally ladies, I would urge you to encourage this person to continue in the same vein, therefore making your argument and proving your point for you."

That's pretty much what I was thinking. Someone pointed out earlier that the question at hand was not why there was hostility towards western women, but whether or not the hostility exists, and to what degree. Yes, it exists, for flimsy and laughable reasons, and apparently - judging by the resonses here - only among a small percentage of people.

A couple things don't make sense to me, and I wonder if anyone would like to clarify them:

What's wrong with accepting people as individuals, regardless of race and gender? Whether or not it's feasible at the present moment, isn't it still a good idea? Wouldn't we all be happier if everyone tried to treat each other as equals? What is the point of shouting down people who want to do away with stereotypes?

Call me a bleeding heart idealist, but it seems to me that ending prejudice by doing our own part to treat everyone well is a good idea. And I get the feeling most of you lovely people agree with me on this point.

The other point that resurfaces again and again is this idea that women not -needing- a man or men not -needing- a woman is offensive. I always believed that mature, independent people, men and women, are self-reliant, and that this was something to strive for. What is so important about -needing- someone? Is this an endorsement of co-dependency? Can anyone clarify this?

[sbk]

I disagree with you on that one, babayaga, I don't think that 'needing' someone in a relationship is co-dependence at all. I believe that we stay in a relationship because something about being with that person fulfills a need, otherwise why stay? I 'need' my husband, not to feel like a whole person, but because I love him and the way I feel when we are together. I am perfectly capable of taking care of myself, but where is the joy in that? One of the greatest pleasures in my life are the experiences we share together, the fact that noone (except maybe my mom) understands me the way my husband does, that noone (including my mom) knows what I am thinking or feeling without me having to say anything.

And no, Babayaga, there is nothing wrong with accepting people the way they are, in fact, that makes something very right with you.

[sbaker8688]

What's wrong with accepting people as individuals, regardless of race and gender?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nothing's wrong with it. The problem is, it has never happened, and it never will. See my post on page 13 regarding this.

Come now... do you *really* think you want to "treat people as individuals, blah blah," or is this just a bunch of nice-sounding mish-mash that really doesn't mean anything when it comes right down to it? Do you want to end affirmative-action, for instance? I doubt it, but you are welcome to correct the record if I'm wrong.

If true, many of your sisters-in-arms would be against you on this (See Kat's post, page 13, responding to my post). Oh, of course they *say* the same thing you say above. "Treat people as individuals, blah blah." But they don't mean it.

By the way, a person can't be of a "gender." The proper term is "sex." The term "gender" refers to a noun - language. It's a word that's so incredibly misused nowadays (especially by the liberal/PC crowd) that I'm sure they'll end up going ahead and changing dictionaries to reflect the new usage. Anyway, sorry to nitpick such an insignificant issue, but surely you can allow me just one tiny irrational ideosyncratic pet-peeve? :-)

[sbaker8688]

The other point that resurfaces again and again is this idea that women not -needing- a man or men not -needing- a woman is offensive. I always believed that mature, independent people, men and women, are self-reliant, and that this was something to strive for. What is so important about -needing- someone? Is this an endorsement of co-dependency? Can anyone clarify this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure, I can clarify it. You've missed the point entirely.

The problem isn't women not needing men. The problem is women perpetually puffing out their chests, and braying loudly and incessantly about the fact that they don't need men. Over and over and over again, 24/7.

When it comes right down to it, there are lots of things in life I don't "need." I don't need women. I don't need friends. I don't need my family. I don't need my dog, who is laying at the foot of my bed as I'm writing this. But I don't feel the need to bray constantly, loudly, and incessantly about the fact that I don't need any of these people (or pets), 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I don't feel the need to sit at the dinner table with my parents, and beat upon my chest, defiantly bragging that "I don't need family for anything!"

Like me, there must be many things in life you don't need. I'm sure it's not just men, right? So ask yourself what other things you constantly bray about that you don't need. Do you bray loudly and arrogantly to your friends that you don't need them? Do you tell you co-workers, or your cat this information? Ever? If not, why?

The question is - do you only feel the need to bray about this fact when it's men you are referring to? The obvious answer is - yes. I never hear women bleating "I don't need friends for anything!"

So the second question is "Why only men?" The obvious answer, again, is hostility. That's the point that you missed. We don't care that you don't need us. To each his own. What we care about is that you don't ever shut up about it.

[alaina]

The other point that resurfaces again and again is this idea that women not -needing- a man or men not -needing- a woman is offensive. I always believed that mature, independent people, men and women, are self-reliant, and that this was something to strive for. What is so important about -needing- someone? Is this an endorsement of co-dependency? Can anyone clarify this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure, I can clarify it. You've missed the point entirely.

The problem isn't women not needing men. The problem is women perpetually puffing out their chests, and braying loudly and incessantly about the fact that they don't need men. Over and over and over again, 24/7.

When it comes right down to it, there are lots of things in life I don't "need." I don't need women. I don't need friends. I don't need my family. I don't need my dog, who is laying at the foot of my bed as I'm writing this. But I don't feel the need to bray constantly, loudly, and incessantly about the fact that I don't need any of these people (or pets), 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I don't feel the need to sit at the dinner table with my parents, and beat upon my chest, defiantly bragging that "I don't need family for anything!"

Like me, there must be many things in life you don't need. I'm sure it's not just men, right? So ask yourself what other things you constantly bray about that you don't need. Do you bray loudly and arrogantly to your friends that you don't need them? Do you tell you co-workers, or your cat this information? Ever? If not, why?

The question is - do you only feel the need to bray about this fact when it's men you are referring to? The obvious answer is - yes. I never hear women bleating "I don't need friends for anything!"

So the second question is "Why only men?" The obvious answer, again, is hostility. That's the point that you missed. We don't care that you don't need us. To each his own. What we care about is that you don't ever shut up about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know what you really need?

[kat]

"When it comes right down to it, there are lots of things in life I don't "need." I don't need women. I don't need friends. I don't need my family. I don't need my dog, who is laying at the foot of my bed as I'm writing this. But I don't feel the need to bray constantly, loudly, and incessantly about the fact that I don't need any of these people (or pets), 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I don't feel the need to sit at the dinner table with my parents, and beat upon my chest, defiantly bragging that 'I don't need family for anything!'"

Baker, who started this whole chest-thumping in the first place? We were simply discussing our experiences as women in Thailand before you showed up. But I have no problem with the fact that you did, because I don't mind discussing these issues. However, it is always better for any discussion if you are honest.

But your dog sounds charming, and if there is someone braying loudly and incessantly 24 hours a day that they don't need you, then I would definetely grow weary. I would say it's that person, not all Western women. We are a lot more varied than your depiction. There are two sides to everything anyway: those that need, and those that don't need. Both have their own set of advantages and problems.

As for myself, I dont' necessarily need men, but life is a lot better when the good ones are around. Maybe I don't need them, but I definitely want them. I think that also has its advantages.