Teenage Girl Arrested For Stabbing Her New-born Child To Death

[Boo]

pregnant women & esp those just post labor are subjected to a myriad of hormonal & chemical changes in her body & brain. Something a man (and to a degree a women who hasn't had a child although any women who has suffered with severe pmt will have an idea) could not possible experience or understand nor use as a reason for committing this kind of act. A young women who had emotional issues already could quite easily perform such an horrific act without really being aware of why or able to prevent herself from doing so.

[bkkbound04]

i understand that but it doesn't excuse the act nor remove the need for punnishment

i previously mentioned criminals with frontal lobe damage, essentially brain damaged individuals, however they are still subject to the same laws as the rest of us & rightly so

[Boo]

I dont think anyone has said she shouldn't receive punishment but she most certainly needs assessment to find out the why & treatment. There are very well known & acknowledged reasons why a women who has just given birth might have done this & that she is a quite possibly a victim too.

[junki3korean]

drugs??

[cyb]

i understand that but it doesn't excuse the act nor remove the need for punnishment

i previously mentioned criminals with frontal lobe damage, essentially brain damaged individuals, however they are still subject to the same laws as the rest of us & rightly so

OMG

I am lost for words and you said your blood was boiling?

[dale8]

Hello, my hope and prayers for the baby and the family of the baby. This is a disturbing story as the mother of the baby needs psychiactric help, and maybe then she would understand what we in this society value.

[shiatsuman]

so if a father carries out the same actions because of his hormones/testosterone then it's an equally excuseable act??

or is it only women that can apply for the "get out of jail free" card?

imo fact of the matter is, if anybody kills another person then it can be argued that they are "not right in the head" so should any murderers be punnished? how about cannibals..studies have shown that a common trait among those that carry out the act of eating another human being(along with some sexual/violent offenders etc) have some frontal lobe damage to the brain

...should they be excused for their actions? modern medicine has shown they suffer from a form of brain damage...should they be accountable? where's the cut off point where we say you take responsibilities for your actions however heinous they are?

You are obviously a male , as am I, but unfortunately you are incapable of understanding for, or empathy with, a woman who had just given birth by herself in the servants quarters of her employers. Your sexist antipathy to women is palpable .

[sassienie]

I am 57 now and in these times would hate to be in my late teens or early 20s again trying to get established and starting out on a new career.

It’s a much more commercial and competitive world since my younger days and the pressures on young people are enormous, especially if they have no support from their families due to financial problems or broken homes.

It’s comes as no surprise when some to them start cracking up under the strain.

The responsibility lies with the governments because of their lack of support for the younger generations with education, work training, home renting/buying assistance, marriage guidance and child support.

[brahmburgers]

So sad. Were there any warning signs? Did the boyfriend hear her say she was going to kill the baby when it was born? It's a moot point now. Also, Thai TV shows have nearly non-stop displays of women acting stupidly and irrationally with emotions going helter skelter. Could such daily doses of emotional beserkedness affect the young people who watch that crapola many hours per day? If you ask me, it's a 'yes.'

A side note: Stephen Gaskin started a farm in rural US during the 'flower power' days which had a standing policy something like, "any woman who wants to give birth here, can do so without any questions asked. She can take the child when she wants or she can leave it here at the farm." There were midwives on hand. I don't know much details, but I like the general policy.

In the States, I dated a woman who was born (and abandoned and brought up) there, and she was as cool as any I've met before or since.

Are there any such 'safe havens' for women here in Thailand? Places where they can go and peaceably give birth while deciding whether to keep or abandon their ilk?

If there's anything like that in Thailand, I can't imagine it being free from manifold probing with questions, admonitions, and rife with judgmental statements. It would also probably be run by stern men and would require truckloads of bureaucracy every step of the way.

Edited August 15, 2009 by brahmburgers

[marsteele]

So sad and so tragic.

Stabbing your own baby 20 times is not the sign of a thoughtful killer.

It is Post Partum Depression, legaly a non-rational state in many women.

Coupled with hopelessness with fear of what's to come; raising a wholy dependent

being ALONE with no help. Yes, she has a mother, but that's not the same in this sense.

She lost control of reality in a blind rage, likely imaging that

she lost her great love because of the baby,

when he never was, and is just being a turd for dumping her,

likely scared of his responsibilities in the situation too.

These situations are one of the few real cases were

'Temporary Insanity' actual comes into play.

No mother thinking in her right mind kills her baby...

There wouldn't be any normal consideration of right and wrong, or consequences,

clearly her mind turned past consideration, into apathy, mania and pervasive pain.

Clearly she needs to be in some facility, but not a prison in the classic sense,

but something that can judge what kind of risk she is to herself and others.

And help her regain some balance... IF possible. This is the type of thing

truly not easily recoverable from, she might not make it.

No matter what punishment she gets from society,

she will punish herself all the more than we ever could,

and she is a likely suicide in the future.

A tragedy all the same. In the truest sense of the word.

I could not agree more.. Well said

[Sweet Dreams]

Yes, Brahmburgers, there are such safe havens for women in Thailand, and Bangkok, no less. Look at the information on the We Train website. There are several Thai agencies and NGO's who know how to handle issues such as the one highlighted in the OP.

The tone of several of the posters is such that it is obvious that safe havens will be needed for a long time to come.

[brahmburgers]

Yes, Brahmburgers, there are such safe havens for women in Thailand, and Bangkok, no less. Look at the information on the We Train website. There are several Thai agencies and NGO's who know how to handle issues such as the one highlighted in the OP.

The tone of several of the posters is such that it is obvious that safe havens will be needed for a long time to come.

I googled and found www.we-train.co.th

Looks good from first glance, but didn't see specifics about a possible no-hassles birthing protocol similar to Gaskin's farm (where any woman can go, hassle-free).

Note: "We Train International House" appears to have clean safe rooms available with nice facilities, but they're bt.800/night. A v. reasonable cost for most people, but a desperate young poor woman might feel intimidated by that price. Perhaps there are facilities set aside for those among us who are too distraught and poor.

People milling in the general population need to keep aware of danger signs. There must have been warning signs of the young woman (in the OP) in such dire straits. Thailand has too much of a 'mai pen rai' attitude, and too strong a general belief in karma (everything's going to happen as it should anyway, so why should we do anything to try and change things). Also, what do monks and nuns do on a day to day basis. Judging from observations and newspaper reports, the Sangha (Buddhist clergy and their flock) seems to do a whole lot of nothing, except when it's doing chants for rich & famous peoples' birthdays and sanctifying the name of baby pandas and such. Isn't one of the functions of the Sangha to assist with psychos and the distraught in their neighborhoods?

In other words, a pro-active approach might have helped. Of course, we don't know what, if anything might have helped in the desperate woman's case.

[Bluelotus]

postpartum psychosis - an extreme case to be sure

[animatic]

BrahmB gotta agree on the pathetic roll models for women portrayed on Television.

Two things;

Either this is accurate portrait of typical Thai women...

which is scary as hel_l to contemplate.

Or it is ridiculous bathos/black comedy foisted off as reality,

and so the WORST possible influence on several generations of Thai women.

IF they really believe this is how they should act, they will... scary indeed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel also sorry for the staff at Bangkok Samui Hospital who had this child brought to them.

I have been there many times, and can't imagine this horror won't be affecting them also.

[senshusband]

I would first like to express my sympathy and condolences to the extended family of the newborn. And to the newborn, I hope that in the next life you come back as a shining princess or a charming prince.

Now I have a feeling that this girl was depressed about having possibly made a mistake or not taken nessecary precautions to prevent the pregnancy in the first place, depressed that she now had a huge responsibility in the form of a new human that would have to be cared for every minute of every day, depressed that the person who shared responsibility for creating this new human had left her for what reasons we (you and me) truely don't know, only those two people know, and possibly depressed about other issues such as family's actions and attitude about this, money issues, etc.

So this girl is in her bed before and after her childbirth thinking about all of these things. I suppose her thoughts when she looked at her baby was something along the lines of "You ruined my life. Everything was fine before you came. I hate you. I want you to die so I can have my life back."

I will not say that this is normal behaviour, but in reality, I can understand a person feeling like this. Sure, everything is changed now and life will never be the same. She did what she did for the same reasons many people commit suicide. She was scared, had no idea what was in store, and she paniked. Often times people kill themselves because they blame themselves. In this case she killed her baby because she blamed her baby.

The act has already been committed. There is no "do over". This young lady will live with this for the rest of her life. While that in itself is punishment and torture, she must be also be dealt with as a member of society. I believe that it would be reasonable to place her in a psychiatric institution to help her understand what she has done and also help her deal with it. After she has recieved the proper medical attention and overcome this psycologically, she should then be placed in a prison for an appropriate amount of time. I would think 20 years and not a day less would be sufficiant for her to realize what she has done and "attone for her sins".

[Thongkorn]

Good job they don't just punish all people with mental disorders because England had a King that was mad , King George, he went mad , then they found out it was a vitamin deficiency. so I suppose that blows punishment out of the water , how do you punish some one who does not know they have done wrong ,People are to quick to judge not knowing all the facts, help and understanding is what is needed, not punishment.

[brahmburgers]

interesting that 'vitamin deficiency' was mentioned in the previous post.

This may seem like a red herring or very small significance, but let's for a moment take a look at MSG (monosodium glutamate). For starters, I acknowledge that I'm a lot more sensitive to its effects than Thai folks, but it could also be that Thais are inured to it (or have found ways to tolerate it) much as they are inured to loud sounds that are everywhere in Thailand. I avoid MSG as much as possible, but sometimes I get zapped. Yesterday was such a day, when at a restaurant I forgot to tell the waiter 'mai aow pom charot kap'. The meal arrived, I was hungry, so I went ahead and toughed it out, even though I knew there would be effects. There were. I had a lingering headache for about 8 hours afterwards, my mouth was dry, my heartbeat was weak and fast, my mood was crustier than normal. If you know what it's like to be high, then ingesting MSG is the polar opposite to being high. It's crap warmed over.

I'm not saying an MSG overdose caused the sicko girl to become barbaric, but it may have had an exacerbating affect on her psyche - much as alcohol can fuel ignorant and harmful behavior.

[way2muchcoffee]

It's really neither here nor there, but MSG is linked to migraines. I had them often when young, and always when MSG was in my meal. It took a while to work it out. Now I don't seem to have a problem much. But every once in a while....

As far as the girl. She probably needs treatment/counseling of some kind. She also needs to be locked away for a considerable time to prevent her from being a danger to herself or others. I doubt she'll get the psychological help she obviously needs, but there is no doubt in my mind that she'll be incarcerated.

Edited August 16, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[G54]

No Jail time some posters are saying ??

She stabbed her new born baby to death over 20 times & you don't believe she should be sent to Jail, away from the general public ??

Help her for sure, where possible, but also lock her up, she stabbed her new born Child to death, she stabbed him 20 times, 20 times !!!!!!!!!!!

She is a cold blooded Murderer & should be punished accordingly !!

She done it, so she says, because her Boyfriend left her, pathetic !!

What an archaic attitude.

Have you never hear of post natal depression? This might well be the case here and until she is examined we will not know, but we do know that mothers can do serious things while suffering PND.

I have noted she did this after her boyfriend left her and that could have been the trigger that made her go over the top.

I agree she needs help and she is unlikely to get it if she is simply locked up and charged with pre-meditated murder.

The fact she stabbed the baby 20 times is surely an indicator of a serious problem. So I am in favour of her receiving help.

[bkkbound04]

this thread seems to attract the same type lol

g54, you've quoted that guy yet have you bothered to read what you've quoted?

do you not see the bit where he says "Help her for sure, where possible"? no of course you didn't

i don't care how this sounds as there's obviously some weirdos in this thread but when a child dies and punnishment is a secondary measure it highlights a social problem..perhaps that's why so many choose to settle in a semi-lawless country

take that how you want it, but that fella including myself never said don't help the girl, infact if any of you are capable of actually reading then you'd see that help was always mentioned..yet when you focus on the child(victim) rather than the mother(murderer/criminal) then suddenly you're cold hearted lol not at all & i seriously question some of the people that have posted in this threads personality traits lol maybe it's just because it was a poor thai girl though

there should always be help when a crime is commited and there usually is, i find it absurd that i'm having to spell this out when i can bet a good guess that a few in this thread are a wee bit long in the tooth

sutcliffe, hindley, west etc etc all have *help* it allows us to understand what's happened and potentially prevent the same thing happening again, however the help is secondary to them being locked up, if somebody suffers from ptsd and shoots innocent people as a result of the illness then again help is needed but is secondary to punnishment

no wonder thailands in the state it is and no wonder life is so cheap

just throw some magic pills at the poor wee thai girl and it will all go away ?

..and again i can't believe i'm having to spell this out, pnd isn't that rare either...however it's extremely rare when you look at the amount that suffer for individuals to become violent like in this case, sure it's always a possible but the fact murders like this are rare shows that it's a minority of sufferers that snap and harm others, just like a minority of healthy people will snap and harm others

[bkkbound04]

Good job they don't just punish all people with mental disorders because England had a King that was mad , King George, he went mad , then they found out it was a vitamin deficiency. so I suppose that blows punishment out of the water , how do you punish some one who does not know they have done wrong ,People are to quick to judge not knowing all the facts, help and understanding is what is needed, not punishment.

i think you'll find that mental health is a more recent discovery in medicine & of course with the situation, especially in thailand, you can see how monarchs are above everything including law and criticism

people with mental health problems have been punnished for crimes or alleged crimes for centuries, the prisons today are filled with mentally ill prisoners, however by locking up these *poor/ill/sick* criminals we've made the streets a wee bit safer

i.e for all the innocent people that don't suffer from a mental illness that causes them become violent & harm/attack/steal from innocent individuals

[fabianfred]

Thailand has too much of a 'mai pen rai' attitude, and too strong a general belief in karma (everything's going to happen as it should anyway, so why should we do anything to try and change things). Also, what do monks and nuns do on a day to day basis. Judging from observations and newspaper reports, the Sangha (Buddhist clergy and their flock) seems to do a whole lot of nothing, except when it's doing chants for rich & famous peoples' birthdays and sanctifying the name of baby pandas and such. Isn't one of the functions of the Sangha to assist with psychos and the distraught in their neighborhoods?

Your incorrect understanding of the law of karma is quite common.... and was prevalent at the Buddha's time too.... This fatalistic interpretation is corrected by the Buddha. Karma is action...every action we do creates either positive, neutral or negative results. The law of cause and effect.

It is the Sangha's responsibility to study, practice and teach the Dhamma.... not carry out social work, although they often do, which is the responsibility of the government.

[dkstoney]

I know that 19 is a "teen" number, but aren't overdoing the youth plea? If she turns 20 next week are they going to refer to her as an ex-teenager? She's a woman--a sick woman at that--but nonetheless a woman she is. A jail cell is just the therapy she needs.

[fabianfred]

It seems to be quite prevalent amongst the young men here to leave their girlfriends once they have become pregnant.

Not willing to take responsibility for their actions......... not wanting to abstain from sex for several months before and after birth.... bored with this one and looking for a newer model...... looking for another innocent virgin to plunder......

They are creating much negative karma for themselves...and are to be pitied....

A harsh long imprisonment would not be appropriate in this case IMHO.

[cyb]

this thread seems to attract the same type lol

g54, you've quoted that guy yet have you bothered to read what you've quoted?

do you not see the bit where he says "Help her for sure, where possible"? no of course you didn't

i don't care how this sounds as there's obviously some weirdos in this thread but when a child dies and punnishment is a secondary measure it highlights a social problem..perhaps that's why so many choose to settle in a semi-lawless country

take that how you want it, but that fella including myself never said don't help the girl, infact if any of you are capable of actually reading then you'd see that help was always mentioned..yet when you focus on the child(victim) rather than the mother(murderer/criminal) then suddenly you're cold hearted lol not at all & i seriously question some of the people that have posted in this threads personality traits lol maybe it's just because it was a poor thai girl though

there should always be help when a crime is commited and there usually is, i find it absurd that i'm having to spell this out when i can bet a good guess that a few in this thread are a wee bit long in the tooth

sutcliffe, hindley, west etc etc all have *help* it allows us to understand what's happened and potentially prevent the same thing happening again, however the help is secondary to them being locked up, if somebody suffers from ptsd and shoots innocent people as a result of the illness then again help is needed but is secondary to punnishment

no wonder thailands in the state it is and no wonder life is so cheap

just throw some magic pills at the poor wee thai girl and it will all go away ?

..and again i can't believe i'm having to spell this out, pnd isn't that rare either...however it's extremely rare when you look at the amount that suffer for individuals to become violent like in this case, sure it's always a possible but the fact murders like this are rare shows that it's a minority of sufferers that snap and harm others, just like a minority of healthy people will snap and harm others

Bkk

do you not see the bit where g54 says "i agree she needs help?"? which was in reply to the quote no of course you didn't.

[G54]

this thread seems to attract the same type lol

g54, you've quoted that guy yet have you bothered to read what you've quoted?

do you not see the bit where he says "Help her for sure, where possible"? no of course you didn't

i don't care how this sounds as there's obviously some weirdos in this thread but when a child dies and punnishment is a secondary measure it highlights a social problem..perhaps that's why so many choose to settle in a semi-lawless country

take that how you want it, but that fella including myself never said don't help the girl, infact if any of you are capable of actually reading then you'd see that help was always mentioned..yet when you focus on the child(victim) rather than the mother(murderer/criminal) then suddenly you're cold hearted lol not at all & i seriously question some of the people that have posted in this threads personality traits lol maybe it's just because it was a poor thai girl though

there should always be help when a crime is commited and there usually is, i find it absurd that i'm having to spell this out when i can bet a good guess that a few in this thread are a wee bit long in the tooth

sutcliffe, hindley, west etc etc all have *help* it allows us to understand what's happened and potentially prevent the same thing happening again, however the help is secondary to them being locked up, if somebody suffers from ptsd and shoots innocent people as a result of the illness then again help is needed but is secondary to punnishment

no wonder thailands in the state it is and no wonder life is so cheap

just throw some magic pills at the poor wee thai girl and it will all go away ?

..and again i can't believe i'm having to spell this out, pnd isn't that rare either...however it's extremely rare when you look at the amount that suffer for individuals to become violent like in this case, sure it's always a possible but the fact murders like this are rare shows that it's a minority of sufferers that snap and harm others, just like a minority of healthy people will snap and harm others

Bkk

do you not see the bit where g54 says "i agree she needs help?"? which was in reply to the quote no of course you didn't.

Yes, I did read where he said about 'help for sure', but that was negated in the main by his further statement where he says

' she stabbed him 20 times, 20 times !!!!!!!!!!! She is a cold blooded Murderer & should be punished accordingly !! '

I also, as Bkk noted, said the woman needs help.

How you, bkkbound, can place the mother of a new born baby into the same category as the likes of Suttcliffe, West and Hindley, who are all notorious mass murderers, is beyond me.

The emotions, the physical well being and - as stated earlier in this topic - the massive changes a mother of a new born go through, can be tremendous.

Why condemn the woman outright and demand punishment for her when it may well be the case of her suffering PND or similar?

IF she killed the baby out of pure spite or some other malicious reason, then she should feel the full weight of justice bear down upon her but justice is simply that - Justice. Why severely punish anyone who may have had a momentary lapse of sanity or had her whole hormonal balance in turmoil?

As to us being 'a wee bit long in the tooth', maybe with age we acquire knowledge and understanding of some events and that makes us take a more balanced view?

Yes, we do feel and care for the baby. We would have to be savages not to care. But that same care can be extended to the mother also until we are given proof she acted maliciously.

Our thoughts also go out to the family, that goes without saying. They have to live with the burden of this tragic incident for a long time, for a time long after we have forgotten about it.

If that makes us weird, then so be it, but it has nothing to do with the woman in question simply being 'A poor Thai girl' as you put it.

[Samuian]

I've seen it last night in the news... sad, very sad,

both are such poor human fellas, I can't say who is worse off

now!

Same the case with e amphetamine abuser who raped and killed

a 4 year old....

Very sad...and they will have no chance to get help, only their sentence.

[brahmburgers]

No Jail time some posters are saying ??

She stabbed her new born baby to death over 20 times & you don't believe she should be sent to Jail, away from the general public ??

Help her for sure, where possible, but also lock her up, she stabbed her new born Child to death, she stabbed him 20 times, 20 times !!!!!!!!!!!

She is a cold blooded Murderer & should be punished accordingly !!

She done it, so she says, because her Boyfriend left her, pathetic !!

What an archaic attitude.

Have you never hear of post natal depression? This might well be the case here and until she is examined we will not know, but we do know that mothers can do serious things while suffering PND.

I have noted she did this after her boyfriend left her and that could have been the trigger that made her go over the top. I agree she needs help and she is unlikely to get it if she is simply locked up and charged with pre-meditated murder. The fact she stabbed the baby 20 times is surely an indicator of a serious problem. So I am in favour of her receiving help.

Thailand has too much of a 'mai pen rai' attitude, and too strong a general belief in karma (everything's going to happen as it should anyway, so why should we do anything to try and change things). Also, what do monks and nuns do on a day to day basis. Judging from observations and newspaper reports, the Sangha (Buddhist clergy and their flock) seems to do a whole lot of nothing, except when it's doing chants for rich & famous peoples' birthdays and sanctifying the name of baby pandas and such. Isn't one of the functions of the Sangha to assist with psychos and the distraught in their neighborhoods?

Your incorrect understanding of the law of karma is quite common.... and was prevalent at the Buddha's time too.... This fatalistic interpretation is corrected by the Buddha. Karma is action...every action we do creates either positive, neutral or negative results. The law of cause and effect.

It is the Sangha's responsibility to study, practice and teach the Dhamma.... not carry out social work, although they often do, which is the responsibility of the government.

You're defining 'karma' in a purist intellectual way. I'm defining karma as it reflects peoples' outlook at large. Most people are selfish, and Thais are among those particularly so. If in doubt, take a look at the degree of charity donations or volunteering for assisting disabled/unfortunate, both within the country and outside. In Thailand, it's about focusing on one's own family while making rote motions to revere royalty and Buddhism. It's not about helping the schitzoid girl heard screaming in the dingy apartment down the alley.

Flipped out people are either seen on TV in soap operas, or they're ignored when tripped over in public. In real life, the dregs of society are a nuisance and Thais want to sweep them under the rug and attribute their sufferings to 'it serves them right.' ....which brings us back to their interpretation of 'karma' (not the Buddha's high minded version of 'karma in action').

RE; The girl who knifed her newborn: there should be a measured response. Not full incarceration for life, but not wimpy excuses either. Taking in to account the girl's severe mental problems, one should also take into account the barbarity of her act. Perhaps ten years in a guarded psychiatric facility followed by ten years in prison.

Just by acknowledging the girl had 'post partem trauma' might mitigate the dastardliness of her deed, but doesn't excuse what happened. Somewhere in her psyche she knew (the whole time, before and during her acts) that murder is bad and illegal.

I am not one to offer excuses to people who do dastardly things. For example, the drunk who wakes up with a splitting hangover, who suddenly realizes he did something destructively harmful the night before while sloshed on Mekong whiskey. I give that person no excuses and no 'get out of jail free' card. Moreover, I find no humor in that scenario, (whereas the average person would probably laugh at the drunk for acting so discombobulated). A fit of destructive rage, whether fueled by drugs, hormones, sense of abandonment, moral terpitude, whatever, - still stems from the person acting it out. I hold the same standard for Arab men who murder their sisters and daughters under the guise of 'honor killings.'

Edited August 17, 2009 by brahmburgers

[quiksilva]

Its an awful tragedy.

The woman clearly needs help, and (along with her family) will doubtless need help for the rest of her life when she comes to terms with what she has done (if she ever does). Crucially, its this latter part that none of us have any insight into. We have no idea if its PND or another form of mental illness, which might have been made worse by the stresses of birth and early parenthood.

Regardless, to safeguard society, her therapy needs to happen in a secure place, far removed from the public. Preferably for a very long time.

[aussiejosh]

It doesn't matter, she is sitting somewhere in a cell right now probably with 60+ other women with only what she has done to think about. When the hormones and depression run out and she fully realizes what she has done I am sure there is no punishment in the world which could match it.

Imagine being 19, having a child, your guy leaves you and your living in servants quarters... Now add to this a massive hormone imbalance. Not easily understandable, but a bit hard to be quick to judge no?