Apologize

[eggomaniac]

To make an apology or excuse; to acknowledge some fault or offense, with expression of regret for it, by way of amends. To sincerely attempt to repair harm done and endeavor to achieve acceptance of the apology.

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An anthropologist claimed the highly civilized NA aboriginals, while conceding bad or wrong they did, felt it was counter productive to feel guilt. ---------------------------------------------

What about Thais? Would it be stereotypical to think they have different attitudes about the mistakes they, like the rest of us, make?

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[Farang0tang]

They go to temple, burn some sticks and chip in a few baht. Slate clean again.

(Bit like the Catholic confessions)

[Moonrakers]

At times I wonder that losing face is just a myth introduced by those at the top so that they do not have to answer for their actions.

[samuibeachcomber]

hearing a thai say sorry is extremely rare,but i like the idea of cause and effect and that to say sorry implies "guilt".........we can all do with not carrying so much guilt around and seems to be part and parcel of any christian upbringing.

[way2muchcoffee]

hearing a thai say sorry is extremely rare,but i like the idea of cause and effect and that to say sorry implies "guilt".........we can all do with not carrying so much guilt around and seems to be part and parcel of any christian upbringing.

I find that apologizing reduces any guilt I may carry over my poor actions or decisions.

[473geo]

hearing a thai say sorry is extremely rare,but i like the idea of cause and effect and that to say sorry implies "guilt".........we can all do with not carrying so much guilt around and seems to be part and parcel of any christian upbringing.

I find that apologizing reduces any guilt I may carry over my poor actions or decisions.

Would that not be for accidental offenses.........where deliberate action is taken to cause distress, I feel apologies are worthless....people deserve to live with any guilt.......perhaps being able to easily rid yourself of guilt perpetuates these type of actions?

[way2muchcoffee]

Hmm. I think most things worth apologizing for revolve around bad decision-making. There can be any number of reasons for this. Here are some: 1) Incomplete information at the time of the decision, 2) inaccurate information, 3) a forced decision where there was no time to contemplate consequences, 4) a situation where any decision causes harm, 5) a mistake or misunderstanding, and the list goes on. Deliberately harming another is something else altogether.

[IanForbes]

hearing a thai say sorry is extremely rare,but i like the idea of cause and effect and that to say sorry implies "guilt".........we can all do with not carrying so much guilt around and seems to be part and parcel of any christian upbringing.

I find that apologizing reduces any guilt I may carry over my poor actions or decisions.

Would that not be for accidental offenses.........where deliberate action is taken to cause distress, I feel apologies are worthless....people deserve to live with any guilt.......perhaps being able to easily rid yourself of guilt perpetuates these type of actions?

Good point. I always apologize if I have accidently offended someone or caused someone grief. I NEVER apologize when I've intentionally hurt someone... and I have no guilt afterwards. In fact I feel a bit of glee.

But, I only intentionally hurt someone who has it coming. And, I'm quite willing to accept the consequences of my own actions... even if they were stupid.

[473geo]

Intersting Ian.....I think many sportsmen who take a little occasional retribution apologise profusely........do you think the recipient actually believes they are sorry for the action?..........The apology is not really for the recipient is it?.......no it is for the onlookers........

[WaiWai]

I find that apologizing reduces any guilt I may carry over my poor actions or decisions

Yes, quite! Indeed, it's considered basic courtesy in many of the cultures from which we expats come.

The whole topic of "face" in Asia is quite complex and fascinating. One would think -- but never assume anything about the behaviours and attitudes of people from other cultures -- that guilt might be a fundamental and universal human reflex. You can see guilt on the face of a dog (if not a cat ). So, we might imagine guilt is felt but not displayed or expressed (but perhaps atoned for at the temple, or in other ways, as one poster suggested).

Face is certainly linked with taking responsibility for one's actions. This, we know, can be akin to walking through the market naked in Asia. It could sometimes be plain fear of losing one's job in a very hierarchical society (fear is not unique to Christian cultures). However, it is something much more that ... I think we need an Asian to have a go at explaining this to us.

Could it just be a cultural trait that somehow became magnified over time?

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Reputation, reputation, reputation! O, I have lost my reputation! I have lost the immortal part of myself, and what remains is bestial.

WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE, Othello

[473geo]

The perception that to be seen to make a genuine apology would gain 'face' in many cultures is lost in Asia then??

[barky]

I very rarly hear Thais say sorry for anything they do wrong to me whether intentional or non.

The equivalent word for loss of face in English is embarrasment. Most caring , thoughtful people I know when they do something wrong to someone they get embarrased and say sorry. Yes I know it's just a word and there may not be any true sorrow behind it but it does go towards recifying any hurt through a simple word.

Nowadays, in most situations, I do as the Romans do. On the rare occasion I do something that may inconvenience or discomfort a Thai , I say nothing, ignore it, and carry on.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[WaiWai]

Apologies do occur -- child to parent, for example can (I read) be quite a ceremonious one.

Also, small incidents, like bumping into a person in the street, can elicit an apology; verbal or non verbal. A nod or smile can be a simple apology.

All the same, there's a general hyper-awareness about "face" in Asia that is very different to the culturally instilled notions many of us expats have. Especially this Aussie, I reckon.

P. S. One aspect may be the Buddhist avoidance of strong emotions. Still, I think there's much more to it than that ...

Edited October 24, 2009 by WaiWai

[eggomaniac]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Apologize-t199874.html Post #6 hammers in a couple of nails

Peaceblondie Thanks, tywais, for bringing this up. I wrote a long scene in my novel about ajarns in MaeHongSon, where the farang English teacher makes a big mistake and insists on apologizing to the Thai ajarn he has offended. It goes like this at the beginning, "...I’m sorry. I should go apologize to Ajarn Judysknock, and tell her that I am sorry.”

Apologies are seldom made in Thailand. “Ajarn Robert – you say what? You say you want to say you sorry? What you mean?”

“Ajarn Prathong, yesterday I made a mistake. So I need to go tell her that I made a mistake. There’s nothing wrong with apologizing, is there?”

“Apologize, Ajarn Robert? I hardly know word. I think apologize mean you say that you do bad..."

The book probably makes too big a deal of it, but it has to do with not losing too much face if you are in a position of power. True?

[eggomaniac]

Okay, here's the story. SHE did something very wrong to me about six months ago, violent, bordering on criminal and, yes, painful.

Back on good terms I have asked her if Thais know what 'apologizing' means, blank stare. On a scale of 10, being great good, and 1, being very bad, how she ranked that incident. Her answer was always, "Don't say." Her answer, finally, was to point a 'concession' concerning finances she had then made, which, up to now, had been a mystery to me that she had finally, and thankfully, complied with this long time request of mine.

AHA!

So, not make a conscious admission of wrong doing, but compensate with a separate good act of equal proportion!?

Gain face, in lieu of losing face? I was supposed to 'guess' this was the make up? If i was Thai would I have 'got it'?

Is this a rare look into the complicated Thai mind, or any woman in the World, or just HER? If a Thai does you wrong, just set a net downstream for 'compensation', nothing said? Has anybody had this experience of 'quiet pay back'?

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I think recidivism is an important aspect of a sincere apology! [decreasing the likelihood of repeat performances]

Silly me, I still want her say, SAWY.

[Valjean]

Would it be stereotypical to think they have different attitudes about the mistakes they, like the rest of us, make?

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I don't think it's stereotypical - Thai (Buddhist Asian) and Western (Christian) are different cultures. At an individual level the generalizations don't always apply of course. But there are clear differences.

Thai's are less likely to offer an apology (in the western style) than a westerner. And a westerner might be very likely to give an insincere apology just to smooth over things as well. I've know Thai's who find some of the apologies rude because they know they aren't sincere - so why say them?

We have very different ways of approaching mistakes, disagreements and making amends. One isn't better than the other - they are just different. I've had Thai's at work, when I think I need to apologize for something with someone tell me straight out not to do it. "Face" is tossed around here as a catch-all (as if we don't have any concept of honor or self-respect in the west) but it is something like that, or maybe even in a work setting about power. It's hard for us to understand when it's so natural to say "I'm sorry".

Guilt is a whole other subject but it seems to me guilt is much more deeply embedded in the western culture. The idea of judgment and guilt runs deep in our Christian culture. It seems to me the Buddhist-based culture is lighter on this. It's your karma, not your fault I guess would be a simplistic view. I see both of these foundations have good and bad ways they play out.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Valjean

[Valjean]

Okay, here's the story. SHE did something very wrong to me about six months ago, violent, bordering on criminal and, yes, painful.

Back on good terms I have asked her if Thais know what 'apologizing' means, blank stare. On a scale of 10, being great good, and 1, being very bad, how she ranked that incident. Her answer was always, "Don't say." Her answer, finally, was to point a 'concession' concerning finances she had then made, which, up to now, had been a mystery to me that she had finally, and thankfully, complied with this long time request of mine.

AHA!

So, not make a conscious admission of wrong doing, but compensate with a separate good act of equal proportion!?

Gain face, in lieu of losing face? I was supposed to 'guess' this was the make up? If i was Thai would I have 'got it'?

Is this a rare look into the complicated Thai mind, or any woman in the World, or just HER? If a Thai does you wrong, just set a net downstream for 'compensation', nothing said? Has anybody had this experience of 'quiet pay back'?

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I think recidivism is an important aspect of a sincere apology! [decreasing the likelihood of repeat performances]

Silly me, I still want her say, SAWY.

In my experience you won't get "I'm sorry" for this situation. Her feeling might be that what done is done and words don't change that. Watch her actions and that will be the measure of her feeling for you and the situation.

I just asked my wife why and she said "if you are quiet they can see you are sorry so you don't have to say anything.

That made me realize that words aren't the only way to say sorry. And the problem is that we, based on culture, can't see what is an obvious non-verbal sorry.

What fun!

[473geo]

Some great insight here.......explains a few happenings.......but clearly there is a myriad of alternatives out there......the silent one is the worst of the lot....how do you know if 'quiet' means angry or sorry!!!!.......

[eggomaniac]

Would it be stereotypical to think they have different attitudes about the mistakes they, like the rest of us, make?

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I've know Thai's who find some of the apologies rude because they know they aren't sincere - so why say them?

I've had Thai's at work, when I think I need to apologize for something with someone tell me straight out not to do it. It's hard for us to understand when it's so natural to say "I'm sorry".

When I was a Union Steward we were instructed to not accept "i'm sorry" as the end of a dispute resolution. It had been noted, in case study, that the only 'apologizies' that ended in deescalation were ones that were recognized, 'accepted'. [likely followed with "so long as they don't do it again"]

I don't know how any human, Asian, Black, Farang, would not 'get' "I really was wrong when I did 'blank' to you. I don't ever want to do 'blank' to you again. Will you accept 'blank' [hand shake, hug, flowers, chocolates] as an apology???"

I really DIG the Post above about burning some incense and giving some money to a monk to 'cleanse'. That is the extent of Buddhist understanding for the most part, give money - go to heaven.

They go to temple, burn some sticks and chip in a few baht. Slate clean again.

(Bit like the Catholic confessions)

Ask some Thais you know to detail the 5 Precepts, the 4 Divine Sates and the 3 Poisons.

[oevna]

Some great insight here.......explains a few happenings.......but clearly there is a myriad of alternatives out there......the silent one is the worst of the lot....how do you know if 'quiet' means angry or sorry!!!!.......

I take silence in the face of an offense to mean that the offender doesn't care about the feelings of the offended. This seems pretty universal to me. And I have seen many Thais apologize in different situations. I never really gave it much thought, so I never bothered to categorize it into what sorts of offenses Thais tend to regard as worthy of apology, and which don't. This is an interesting topic.

[eggomaniac]

Some great insight here.......explains a few happenings.......but clearly there is a myriad of alternatives out there......the silent one is the worst of the lot....how do you know if 'quiet' means angry or sorry!!!!.......

well I can't answer on the grounds it might be 'kissing and telling'...

suffice it to say I have a pretty good idea, and photographic proof, SHE is sorry for those actions...

Edited October 24, 2009 by eggomaniac

[oevna]

Ask some Thais you know to detail the 5 Precepts, the 4 Divine Sates and the 3 Poisons.

An interesting challenge. I will take it up, and see the results before drawing my conclusions.

[473geo]

Some great insight here.......explains a few happenings.......but clearly there is a myriad of alternatives out there......the silent one is the worst of the lot....how do you know if 'quiet' means angry or sorry!!!!.......

well I can't answer on the grounds it might be 'kissing and telling'...

suffice it to say I have a pretty good idea SHE is sorry for those actions...

And if it is the 'wrong time' calendar wise......how do you tell then????

[samuibeachcomber]

to ever receive an apology from my "better half".........if i thought an apology was warranted,would cost me an arm and a leg in explaining why i thought one was warranted,only then ,a long time after would she concede and say sorry.In the west its true we throw sorry's around sometimes ad nausiam,and often they are n't meant at all.I for one say sorry many times when its not really necessary.

[jasreeve17]

Thais have a a deeply complex set of social rules, regulations and ideas; appologizing is in there somewhere.

It inherantly involves social hierarchy (tee tum tee soong) and social smoothing values. Nam Jai, Kreng Jai, Jai Yen, Boon Kun, Yaat, and Na are all very important. I know, cause I read it, but it's very difficult to fully understand... In fact, I can't say that I even partially understand, but Thais do say sorry if it fits in with their social values.

[473geo]

I think again the discussion here highlights the 'conditioning' of people in different ways ...thus our expectations are different, which is apparent as we see the accusations of Thai rudeness........yet their 'conditioning' apparently sets differing rules/values........I wonder how often we take offence at action or inaction without fully understanding the view of the situation from the Thai 'conditioning'

I do find I get 'sorry'......but sometimes wonder if this is a mirror image......I would say 'sorry I missed your call'.......and now find on the rare occasion this happens I am offered the same.......

When I suffered a painful 4 hours window shopping... ...I didn't expect an apology......just let her know it was not happening again!!!...

[eggomaniac]

Ask some Thais you know to detail the 5 Precepts, the 4 Divine Sates and the 3 Poisons.

An interesting challenge. I will take it up, and see the results before drawing my conclusions.

I Posted this question as Poll in the Buddhism Forum. It is not my intention to disparage, am just curious.

[eggomaniac]

Some great insight here.......explains a few happenings.......but clearly there is a myriad of alternatives out there......the silent one is the worst of the lot....how do you know if 'quiet' means angry or sorry!!!!.......

well I can't answer on the grounds it might be 'kissing and telling'...

suffice it to say I have a pretty good idea SHE is sorry for those actions...

And if it is the 'wrong time' calendar wise......how do you tell then????

taste!?

[sassienie]

At times I wonder that losing face is just a myth introduced by those at the top so that they do not have to answer for their actions.

I think you’re right to a point.

I have those in my own family, siblings and cousins.

Never admit you are wrong, never apologise and if you do mess up somehow, say it was caused by the incompetent actions of someone else.

Another favourite is:

If someone gives you advice about something and is successful, say it was all your own doing. But if someone gives you advice and one is too stupid to understand and it goes pear shaped, say that was because you were given bad advice or that person interfered and messed you up.

People the same the world over. No one wants to lose face or credibility.

[bifftastic]

I've always regarded a sincere apology, to or from someone you care about, to be a two way thing. Say, for instance, I've done something to upset one of my close friends, I will sincerely apologise, thereby humbling myself somewhat (losing face?) admitting I have done something wrong and they then have the opportunity to say exactly why they were so upset and then, hopefully, forgiveness is forthcoming (face restored?)

It is, often, by these things happening over a long period of time, people you know well are aware of your limitations/weaknesses (and you theirs) that friendships become close and meaningful.

When you just throw a 'sorry' to someone on the street it's not expected to be all that sincere really and I think people have, over time, reduced the value of sincere apology.

Now that may well be a cultural phenomenon peculiar to a Northern European upbringing. But I have given, and received, apologies from my Thai g/f

and also experienced the 'silence' which took me a while to be sure was an apology (of sorts) the issue involved, rather than being resolved, was just not spoken of again. Also had a general 'vibe' of 'whoops he didn't like that (note to self; never do that again)' as opposed to a full blown apology, from women raised in the UK.

There is a meeting of cultures I suppose and it takes some willingness to understand from both parties. Not easily done in a relationship, either of close friends or lovers and I would imagine, almost impossible outside one.

Very interesting topic. Thank you.