Thai Government Urges Citizens On Alert In Bangkok

[Tippaporn]

Thaibebop, don't take it so hard.

[hokiefan]

Well it has been heading north for so time already. Only the blind could not see that. However I would have thought that the PM would have learned from history and defused the situation during last year already.

See how they cope with their independence and how long it is before they come calling for help.

Sure with shoddy education down South for generations, that should work. 

How can you call Bush a failure, since 9/11 how many terrorist attacks has the western world suffered.

Not many, but you lost most of your rights after the attack. Osama must be laughing his ass off in some cave. 

You may not like the guy but he is successfull and maybe he thinks he can win...

Successfull at what? Successfull and MAYBE thinks he can win. Where is the success in MAYBE you can win?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I lost most of my rights after the 9/11 attacks? Can you please tell me what rights I've lost as I haven't noticed any difference in my rights. Or maybe I don't notice any difference as I am a law abiding citizen.

[ChiangMaiThai]

Well it has been heading north for so time already. Only the blind could not see that. However I would have thought that the PM would have learned from history and defused the situation during last year already.

See how they cope with their independence and how long it is before they come calling for help.

Sure with shoddy education down South for generations, that should work. 

How can you call Bush a failure, since 9/11 how many terrorist attacks has the western world suffered.

Not many, but you lost most of your rights after the attack. Osama must be laughing his ass off in some cave. 

You may not like the guy but he is successfull and maybe he thinks he can win...

Successfull at what? Successfull and MAYBE thinks he can win. Where is the success in MAYBE you can win?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I lost most of my rights after the 9/11 attacks? Can you please tell me what rights I've lost as I haven't noticed any difference in my rights. Or maybe I don't notice any difference as I am a law abiding citizen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh boy, one of these guys who truly believes that infringement on our rights should be no concern to those of us who adhere to the law. Bush and Co. must love your kind the most.

[Nam Kao]

Whacky Liberals...

[Tippaporn]

Well it has been heading north for so time already. Only the blind could not see that. However I would have thought that the PM would have learned from history and defused the situation during last year already.

See how they cope with their independence and how long it is before they come calling for help.

Sure with shoddy education down South for generations, that should work. 

How can you call Bush a failure, since 9/11 how many terrorist attacks has the western world suffered.

Not many, but you lost most of your rights after the attack. Osama must be laughing his ass off in some cave.  

You may not like the guy but he is successfull and maybe he thinks he can win...

Successfull at what? Successfull and MAYBE thinks he can win. Where is the success in MAYBE you can win?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I lost most of my rights after the 9/11 attacks? Can you please tell me what rights I've lost as I haven't noticed any difference in my rights. Or maybe I don't notice any difference as I am a law abiding citizen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh boy, one of these guys who truly believes that infringement on our rights should be no concern to those of us who adhere to the law. Bush and Co. must love your kind the most.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)

From a guy who gave quite a bit of thought to the ideas of freedom. I'm sure he's rolling over in his grave, along with a few other founding fathers.

These days in America freedom and liberties hold little value when they go up against the ever increasing push for safety. Rationally insane, if you ask me.

Here's another good example. Illinois has passed new divorce laws. My daughter wishes to divorce from her husband. She cannot do so for 6 months to 2 years. Six months if her husband consents. Two years if he does not. Oh, and he doesn't have to move out, either. No loss of freedom and liberty?

Edited April 9, 2005 by Tippaporn

[The_Moog]

You fail to understand the bonds that Muslim-centered countries have for one another. IF they were ever granted a separate homeland, money from many of these oil-rich Muslim countries would pour in, to say nothing of the funds the U.N. would contribute.

Experience suggests otherwise John.

eg

The Saudi Princelings have never felt like sharing their 'winnings' - not even with their own countrymen - let alone other Moslems outside their own branch of the faith.

The dysfunction that this social rift has caused in Saudi Arabia has abetted extremism there among the 'have-nots'.

[thaibebop]

Thaibebop, don't take it so hard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, that's it? I was getting ready for round three!

[ray23]

Well it has been heading north for so time already. Only the blind could not see that. However I would have thought that the PM would have learned from history and defused the situation during last year already.

See how they cope with their independence and how long it is before they come calling for help.

Sure with shoddy education down South for generations, that should work. 

How can you call Bush a failure, since 9/11 how many terrorist attacks has the western world suffered.

Not many, but you lost most of your rights after the attack. Osama must be laughing his ass off in some cave.  

You may not like the guy but he is successfull and maybe he thinks he can win...

Successfull at what? Successfull and MAYBE thinks he can win. Where is the success in MAYBE you can win?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I lost most of my rights after the 9/11 attacks? Can you please tell me what rights I've lost as I haven't noticed any difference in my rights. Or maybe I don't notice any difference as I am a law abiding citizen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh boy, one of these guys who truly believes that infringement on our rights should be no concern to those of us who adhere to the law. Bush and Co. must love your kind the most.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)

From a guy who gave quite a bit of thought to the ideas of freedom. I'm sure he's rolling over in his grave, along with a few other founding fathers.

These days in America freedom and liberties hold little value when they go up against the ever increasing push for safety. Rationally insane, if you ask me.

Here's another good example. Illinois has passed new divorce laws. My daughter wishes to divorce from her husband. She cannot do so for 6 months to 2 years. Six months if her husband consents. Two years if he does not. Oh, and he doesn't have to move out, either. No loss of freedom and liberty?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Boy that is an interesting law, anything stopping her from packing her suitcase?

Does this have more to deal with custody of children and property rights?

I have the freedom to come here and live as long as I comply with the laws of this land. I do not the freedom to own property here no matter how much money I have. Am I oppressed I think not. I have the freedom to pack my bag. I don't think you can confuse freedom with blanklet rights to conduct yourself in any manner you choose. Society has to function in law, or fall apart.

Freedom stops when you can't pack the bags, you have no choice in your lifes direction. That is what America deems to be punishment in jails.

We have the right to the pursuit of happiness gauranteed in our laws, nothing says we are going to get it.

Ben, I doubt that he would feel the same today, times change, especially if the violence were directed at his family. Do you really believe a man such as this would not have fought back?

You know enough of this attacking America it's the Britts fault, they should have never let us get away with it. LOL

You know isn't great that we can agree to disagree in this format, that is a freedom in itself.

[sendbaht]

"I hate to say this but here goes.........lets put the blame where it belongs.....the muslums'.......

Now this makes sence!!!!!

[Rumpole]

You fail to understand the bonds that Muslim-centered countries have for one another. IF they were ever granted a separate homeland, money from many of these oil-rich Muslim countries would pour in, to say nothing of the funds the U.N. would contribute.

Experience suggests otherwise John.

eg

The Saudi Princelings have never felt like sharing their 'winnings' - not even with their own countrymen - let alone other Moslems outside their own branch of the faith.

The dysfunction that this social rift has caused in Saudi Arabia has abetted extremism there among the 'have-nots'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is something of an over-simplification. For years the House of Saud funded and encouraged these fundamentalist groups, allowing them to flourish so long as their activities were focused outside the borders of the "Magic Kingdom". This was perceived by the Saudi elite as a way of directing religious and political dissent away from their own grubby sandpit. Of course, the policy has now come home to roost, as the profligate Princes find themselves the target of the very groups they helped to establish. During the oil-boom years there was a significant trickle-down effect of the riches generated therefrom; however this has almost completely dried up, and Saudi Arabia is not nowadays considered to be a wealthy country by any stretch of the imagination. Poorly-educated and disaffected youth, raised on stories of the lotus-eating of their parents’ generation, find themselves without either jobs or legitimate means of expressing political opposition. They therefore provide a willing audience for the screeds of hate propounded by the Mad Mullahs.

Leaders of other Gulf States such as Kuwait and the UAE, have been a little more judicious in providing for the long-term material comfort of their own miniscule populations, and have been rather more charitable in channeling some of their wealth towards their less-fortunate Muslim brethren in other countries.

Edited April 10, 2005 by Rumpole

[Tippaporn]

Thaibebop, don't take it so hard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, that's it? I was getting ready for round three!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thaibebop, was that an invitation you just sent me? I thought I'd give people a much needed rest from my incoherent ramblings. Good idea, don't you think?

My last reply was made with sincerity, though. I do respect others' opinions regardless of how polarized in thought we may be. And I do enjoy the exchanges, even when they seem to get rather emotional at times. It's all very stimulating on many levels.

If you misunderstand anything about me, please don't misunderstand my intentions here. My comments serve a number of purposes. Shaking up mental cobwebs would be only one of them. And that goes for me as well.

On the other hand, don't think for a minute that I don't mean what I say. I don't think anyone here at TV would disagree that there is much that is unknown. And the unknown would shock the daylights out of the known. Trust me on that.

I did want to provide you with a link to the scientific community currently involved in the exploration of the ideas I've been dribbling on and on and on . . . . about. Quantum physics is making tremendous strides.

http://www.newworldview.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ul...ic&f=1&t=000999

I don't know what your scientific background is but the discussion to which the above link takes you might be a little on the dry side. It helps if you have a solid background with the concepts, or main tenets of which I, and many others around the globe speak. I certainly wouldn't expect the novice to 'pick up' on the discussion, though.

And I certainly don't mean to come off as 'wiser than thou,' either. I'm much to humble to adopt that attitude. My apologies if I did and am blind to myself. Knowledge doesn't a master make! We're all learning and that will never stop.

And, oh yes, this does involve the events of south Thailand. Very directly, for that matter. While there are the usual 'surface events' which most people seem to touch on exclusively there are events taking place on deeper levels, too. There are many connections here which escape the normal 'eye.' Each person, wittingly or not, plays a part in the outcome. I do care a great deal about what that outcome will be. Again, please don't misunderstand my utmost sincerity regarding that intention.

Know, though, that my stand will always be against death as a means to an end. Nor do I wish to see Thailand adopt a police state. There exist many extremely valid reasons for this.

Ray23, my realistic and most practical advice is not too far off from the suggestions made by Thaibebop; use your senses. Take whatever measures you feel are necessary that would make you feel safe. And you will be. Especially since you're a police veteran, I'm sure you have 'proven' to yourself by this time that you have the ability to survive quite well. Allow that to continue through until your own conclusion.

[Tippaporn]

Good morning, Taxexile!

[taxexile]

and good morning to you too.

[Tippaporn]

Boy that is an interesting law, anything stopping her from packing her suitcase?

Does this have more to deal with custody of children and property rights?

Not sure, Ray. She's just beginning to learn about how this is all supposed to work. Can he simply pocket his earnings without contributing at all while he's still living under her roof? I'm clueless, both as to how it works or the inane intention behind this law.

I have the freedom to come here and live as long as I comply with the laws of this land. I do not the freedom to own property here no matter how much money I have.  Am I oppressed I think not. I have the freedom to pack my bag. I don't think you can confuse freedom with blanklet rights to conduct yourself in any manner you choose. Society has to function in law, or fall apart.

I'm sure you've weighed the pro and cons before deciding to settle here. Some things are appealing and some things are not. Many laws have not been written with the benefit of any kind of innate wisdom. People will always bend or break these laws. And not always necessarily because they have criminal intents.

Did you wear a seat belt before it became law? I never did. I never had a problem feeling my own safety and didn't feel I needed to rely on a seat belt to insure me my safety. Those are decisions I can make for myself and I believe that type of decision should be left to the individual rather than having someone else's beliefs blindly take precedence over my own ability to make a 'sound' decision that fits into what I believe. The same goes with deciding whether or not I wish to be with someone or not, as in the case of my daughter.

Laws become more and more intrusive and freedoms and liberties rapidly fade as governments continually try to legislate every facet of human existence. They're setting themselves up for failure.

Freedom stops when you can't pack the bags, you have no choice in your lifes direction. That is what America deems to be punishment in jails.

We have the right to the pursuit of happiness gauranteed in our laws, nothing says we are going to get it.

Ben, I doubt that he would feel the same today, times change, especially if the violence were directed at his family. Do you really believe a man such as this would not have fought back?

You know enough of this attacking America it's the Britts fault, they should have never let us get away with it. LOL

You know isn't great that we can agree to disagree in this format, that is a freedom in itself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, the exchanges are fun.

I almost forgot! You are dead on with faulting the Britts. If they had never let us go then they would be the current target of scorn everywhere in the world. At least Bush wouldn't president!

Edited April 10, 2005 by Tippaporn

[ChiangMaiThai]

FRONT PAGE OF THE NY TIMES TODAY. HERE's THE HEADLINE AND BEGINNING OF THE ARTICLE. YOU GET THE PICTURE. MORE OF THE SAME. BUT AS LONG AS I'M A LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, WHY DO I CARE? CHECK MY BANK ACCOUNTS. COME INTO MY HOUSE ANY TIME YOU LIKE. STRIP SEARCH ME. FORCE LIBRARIES TO TELL YOU WHAT BOOKS I READ. AND ON AND ON. WHERE DOES IT STOP?

I'll repeat what's already been posted...

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-Benjamin Franklin.

U.S. Seeks Access to Bank Records to Deter Terror

By ERIC LICHTBLAU

Published: April 10, 2005

WASHINGTON, April 9 - The Bush administration is developing a plan to give the government access to possibly hundreds of millions of international banking records in an effort to trace and deter terrorist financing, even as many bankers say they already feel besieged by government antiterrorism rules that they consider overly burdensome.

The initiative, as conceived by a working group within the Treasury Department, would vastly expand the government's database of financial transactions by gaining access to logs of international wire transfers into and out of American banks.

[ray23]

FRONT PAGE OF THE NY TIMES TODAY. HERE's THE HEADLINE AND BEGINNING OF THE ARTICLE. YOU GET THE PICTURE. MORE OF THE SAME.  BUT AS LONG AS I'M A LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, WHY DO I CARE? CHECK MY BANK ACCOUNTS. COME INTO MY HOUSE ANY TIME YOU LIKE. STRIP SEARCH ME. FORCE LIBRARIES TO TELL YOU WHAT BOOKS I READ. AND ON AND ON. WHERE DOES IT STOP?

I'll repeat what's already been posted...

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-Benjamin Franklin.

U.S. Seeks Access to Bank Records to Deter Terror

By ERIC LICHTBLAU

Published: April 10, 2005

WASHINGTON, April 9 - The Bush administration is developing a plan to give the government access to possibly hundreds of millions of international banking records in an effort to trace and deter terrorist financing, even as many bankers say they already feel besieged by government antiterrorism rules that they consider overly burdensome.

The initiative, as conceived by a working group within the Treasury Department, would vastly expand the government's database of financial transactions by gaining access to logs of international wire transfers into and out of American banks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The one thing that everyone needs to undersatnd about American Law is it is work in progress and always will be. In the last thirty years,one has changed from possesion of a marajuana seed was a felony and people went to prison, now less then an ounce is an infraction ( California) and you can only be fined. Society changed and eventually the laws did as well.

Search and seizure laws are always trying to be strengthened by one group and lessened by another. What we see now is just temporay, society is demanding it, for whatever reason they have, probably fear.

What make the swing not codefied law, but case law. I don't worry about freedom in America, both the groups are powerful and it swing one way or another based on what is happeing in the time frames.

The one thing that remains a fairly constant, is that the average American has very time to involve himslf in matters of thought as we do today, retired. The other that is a constant is that same group of people are awesome force, when united as 9-11 did. The problem that I can see is that there really is not a clear cut enemy for that force to be directed at.

Are all Muslums terroist I think not.

If the freedoms of americans are threatened beyond what they will accept then you will see the Ben Franklin attiutude become very clear to our own law makers.

These are very complex issues, this not one nation involved in conflict with another, as we are seeing here in Thailand. This by comparison to Thia population, even in that area, taking into account the Muslum paopulation there is a very small group of radical people, trying to change the majority to what they want.

These are not the poor common folk of the area, I doubt may of them would have the first idea of how to make a bomb. The truth is the average person living in that area is paying a very heavy price, for these activities.

One of the things that stood out in my mind, working in the hood was the victims of the gangs drugs and violence, wasn't the group living in Beverly Hills, it was the people who lived there. The majority of which wanted nothiong more then a peaceful place to live work, a safe place for thier kids to learn and better thier lot in life.

I truly feel for them wish there were answers, but I doubt there is any answer that everyone will accept.

[The_Moog]

For years the House of Saud funded and encouraged these fundamentalist groups, allowing them to flourish so long as their activities were focused outside the borders of the "Magic Kingdom". This was perceived by the Saudi elite as a way of directing religious and political dissent away from their own grubby sandpit.

Ironically they finance the proto-revolutionaries - but don't help the average impoverished Moslem in Yala/Pattani- and Sri- John was mentioning that Saudi would help the latter if a pan Islamic SE Asia state was formed.

ANYWAY...sorry, this topic has been hi-jacked by Americans doing what Americans like doing best. A monologue about America...back over to you, DUDES ! ...

[ray23]

For years the House of Saud funded and encouraged these fundamentalist groups, allowing them to flourish so long as their activities were focused outside the borders of the "Magic Kingdom". This was perceived by the Saudi elite as a way of directing religious and political dissent away from their own grubby sandpit.

Ironically they finance the proto-revolutionaries - but don't help the average impoverished Moslem in Yala/Pattani- and Sri- John was mentioning that Saudi would help the latter if a pan Islamic SE Asia state was formed.

ANYWAY...sorry, this topic has been hi-jacked by Americans doing what Americans like doing best. A monologue about America...back over to you, DUDES ! ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry for the high jacking, please continue

[Tippaporn]

ANYWAY...sorry, this topic has been hi-jacked by Americans doing what Americans like doing best. A monologue about America...back over to you, DUDES ! ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah'm safe from thet comment since Ah ain't American.

[sonthaya]

And I'm a Dane, so no problem

[sriracha john]

For years the House of Saud funded and encouraged these fundamentalist groups, allowing them to flourish so long as their activities were focused outside the borders of the "Magic Kingdom". This was perceived by the Saudi elite as a way of directing religious and political dissent away from their own grubby sandpit.

Ironically they finance the proto-revolutionaries - but don't help the average impoverished Moslem in Yala/Pattani- and Sri- John was mentioning that Saudi would help the latter if a pan Islamic SE Asia state was formed.

ANYWAY...sorry, this topic has been hi-jacked by Americans doing what Americans like doing best. A monologue about America...back over to you, DUDES ! ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, this American will try to stay within the perimeters of the topic... and I do believe that Muslim world would be ever so joyful at the prospect of returning Pattani to it's old Muslim Kingdom. Certainly the Malaysians and Indonesians would help out, as well as the other Muslim countries in the Middle East, not only the Saudis. Whatever else might be needed, I'm sure the U.N. would step in ala East Timor. My comments before centered on someone's conjecture that the area would fall flat on it's face if allowed to go independent... and I don't see that happening. They might have to struggle for awhile... but they're already doing that under Mr. T.

[The_Moog]

Malaysians and Indonesians would help out, as well as the other Muslim countries in the Middle East,

The last thing Malaysia wants is a pan-Islamic SE Asian superstate - though it might like the three Thai provinces.

...a superstate would mean them having to unite with Indonesia. The two countries are not great friends - remember Sukarno's KONFRONTASI !!!!

I don't think Arabia would ever help anyone. It is isolationist

UN would help a fledgling State if its bona fide - E. Timor was, but Yala Pattana and Narathiwat don't fall into that category. Don't know how the UN would react - probably support Thailand.

The lack of an obvious outcome - unlike E Timor, makes this such a conundrum.

[meom]

For years the House of Saud funded and encouraged these fundamentalist groups, allowing them to flourish so long as their activities were focused outside the borders of the "Magic Kingdom". This was perceived by the Saudi elite as a way of directing religious and political dissent away from their own grubby sandpit.

Ironically they finance the proto-revolutionaries - but don't help the average impoverished Moslem in Yala/Pattani- and Sri- John was mentioning that Saudi would help the latter if a pan Islamic SE Asia state was formed.

Indirect the Saudies are helping out. Out of a population of about 18 million there's something like 6 million foreigners working, the majority of which come from poor muslim countries such as Indonesia, Bangladesh e.o. The amount of money remitted each month to those countries is quitte a lot.

There is also room for thai's to work in Saudi but due to issues from the past this is not feasible at present.

Regarding the House of Saud according to latest estimates the number of princes etc. is closer to one hundred thousand than to ten thousand and they are definately not one happy family so it is therefore a simplification to state that the House of Saud funded fundamentalists. Some princes might have been involved but definately not all. In fact a lot of funding came from saudi businessmen not directly related to the royal family.

[thaibebop]

Thaibebop, don't take it so hard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, that's it? I was getting ready for round three!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thaibebop, was that an invitation you just sent me? I thought I'd give people a much needed rest from my incoherent ramblings. Good idea, don't you think?

My last reply was made with sincerity, though. I do respect others' opinions regardless of how polarized in thought we may be. And I do enjoy the exchanges, even when they seem to get rather emotional at times. It's all very stimulating on many levels.

If you misunderstand anything about me, please don't misunderstand my intentions here. My comments serve a number of purposes. Shaking up mental cobwebs would be only one of them. And that goes for me as well.

On the other hand, don't think for a minute that I don't mean what I say. I don't think anyone here at TV would disagree that there is much that is unknown. And the unknown would shock the daylights out of the known. Trust me on that.

I did want to provide you with a link to the scientific community currently involved in the exploration of the ideas I've been dribbling on and on and on . . . . about. Quantum physics is making tremendous strides.

http://www.newworldview.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ul...ic&f=1&t=000999

I don't know what your scientific background is but the discussion to which the above link takes you might be a little on the dry side. It helps if you have a solid background with the concepts, or main tenets of which I, and many others around the globe speak. I certainly wouldn't expect the novice to 'pick up' on the discussion, though.

And I certainly don't mean to come off as 'wiser than thou,' either. I'm much to humble to adopt that attitude. My apologies if I did and am blind to myself. Knowledge doesn't a master make! We're all learning and that will never stop.

And, oh yes, this does involve the events of south Thailand. Very directly, for that matter. While there are the usual 'surface events' which most people seem to touch on exclusively there are events taking place on deeper levels, too. There are many connections here which escape the normal 'eye.' Each person, wittingly or not, plays a part in the outcome. I do care a great deal about what that outcome will be. Again, please don't misunderstand my utmost sincerity regarding that intention.

Know, though, that my stand will always be against death as a means to an end. Nor do I wish to see Thailand adopt a police state. There exist many extremely valid reasons for this.

Ray23, my realistic and most practical advice is not too far off from the suggestions made by Thaibebop; use your senses. Take whatever measures you feel are necessary that would make you feel safe. And you will be. Especially since you're a police veteran, I'm sure you have 'proven' to yourself by this time that you have the ability to survive quite well. Allow that to continue through until your own conclusion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry I have not responded sooner, classes have kept me busy. I myself am sorry if I went to far. Now that I read this post I wonder if you might be talking about some of the ideas behind choas theory. I will have to try the link. Thank You for the info. I can also agree that all peaceful means must be exhausted first, but if they don't work, to protect people some people may have to die.

[Rumpole]

Regarding the House of Saud according to latest estimates the number of princes etc. is closer to one hundred thousand than to ten thousand and they are definately not one happy family so it is therefore a simplification to state that the House of Saud funded fundamentalists. Some princes might have been involved but definately not all. In fact a lot of funding came from saudi businessmen not directly related to the royal family.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some of the Princes involved were very close indeed to the centre of power - a heartbeat away, in one instance. And if the Al Saud had wished to put a stop to funding which emanated from the Kingdom or any of its citizens, they could have done so easily. No serious "businessman" in Saudi is able to prosper without the blessing of the ruling clan, let alone risk invoking their displeasure. Bin Laden was considered to be something of a national hero when his activities were directed against the Soviets in Afghanistan. He was however quickly dispatched into exile with a price on his head, when he turned his attentions towards the House of Saud.

Edited April 15, 2005 by Rumpole

[Tippaporn]

Thaibebop, don't take it so hard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, that's it? I was getting ready for round three!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thaibebop, was that an invitation you just sent me? I thought I'd give people a much needed rest from my incoherent ramblings. Good idea, don't you think?

My last reply was made with sincerity, though. I do respect others' opinions regardless of how polarized in thought we may be. And I do enjoy the exchanges, even when they seem to get rather emotional at times. It's all very stimulating on many levels.

If you misunderstand anything about me, please don't misunderstand my intentions here. My comments serve a number of purposes. Shaking up mental cobwebs would be only one of them. And that goes for me as well.

On the other hand, don't think for a minute that I don't mean what I say. I don't think anyone here at TV would disagree that there is much that is unknown. And the unknown would shock the daylights out of the known. Trust me on that.

I did want to provide you with a link to the scientific community currently involved in the exploration of the ideas I've been dribbling on and on and on . . . . about. Quantum physics is making tremendous strides.

http://www.newworldview.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ul...ic&f=1&t=000999

I don't know what your scientific background is but the discussion to which the above link takes you might be a little on the dry side. It helps if you have a solid background with the concepts, or main tenets of which I, and many others around the globe speak. I certainly wouldn't expect the novice to 'pick up' on the discussion, though.

And I certainly don't mean to come off as 'wiser than thou,' either. I'm much to humble to adopt that attitude. My apologies if I did and am blind to myself. Knowledge doesn't a master make! We're all learning and that will never stop.

And, oh yes, this does involve the events of south Thailand. Very directly, for that matter. While there are the usual 'surface events' which most people seem to touch on exclusively there are events taking place on deeper levels, too. There are many connections here which escape the normal 'eye.' Each person, wittingly or not, plays a part in the outcome. I do care a great deal about what that outcome will be. Again, please don't misunderstand my utmost sincerity regarding that intention.

Know, though, that my stand will always be against death as a means to an end. Nor do I wish to see Thailand adopt a police state. There exist many extremely valid reasons for this.

Ray23, my realistic and most practical advice is not too far off from the suggestions made by Thaibebop; use your senses. Take whatever measures you feel are necessary that would make you feel safe. And you will be. Especially since you're a police veteran, I'm sure you have 'proven' to yourself by this time that you have the ability to survive quite well. Allow that to continue through until your own conclusion.

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Sorry I have not responded sooner, classes have kept me busy. I myself am sorry if I went to far. Now that I read this post I wonder if you might be talking about some of the ideas behind choas theory. I will have to try the link. Thank You for the info. I can also agree that all peaceful means must be exhausted first, but if they don't work, to protect people some people may have to die.

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No need to apologize, Thaibebop, but it's thoughtful anyway. Not only have I enjoyed your opinions, I'm grateful for them, too. Yours and everyone's.

I'd rather not comment on the chaos theory here but yes, the particular discussion I directed you to does touch on that theory and a little more.

As far as exhausting peaceful means they can never be exhausted. Only when death as a means to an end is rejected with finality as a means to an end will people ever search extensively enough to find true answers to problems such as south Thailand. And it is an extensive search! But, imagine the benefits that would hold for the future!!

[sting01]

I am late on that one, but I still have some thought.

I am close to be clueless concerning the real reasons (hystoricals + economicals ) of the deep south conflicts. I know what everyboddy living here know : that is the clash btw 2 cultures.

About terrorism, I come from a country involved with several "freedom movement" since 1945 : Indochina, Algeria, Brittany, Corsica, Eusquadi (basques) and recently various "muslims" movements. To have big and strong tieds with the muslims community, I can first strongly affirm mostly the so called "muslims movement" are not at all muslims, those people , both in Algeria with the FIS or in France do not act to serve God the mighty but only some personnal interrest, their personnal or somone else interest. Yes powerty, social inequality, economical frustation are the breed of this movement, it's so common the complain because one have just bought a new mercedes and during the smae time you can hardly afford to buy meat for your kids everyday ... Fact is also, mostly people who can buy a new mercedes arethose who have invested early and alot a big part of their personnal life in the work time (I know people who have many things, but they work almost 16 hours 7/weeks).

So the solutions adopted by my governement were alongs the past 50 years always the same. As France still exist, I do suppose those solutions are not that bad :

1) listen carefully the right revendications of the basic citisens. For exemple, in France we have a multicultural population, with a wide range of "dialects" : Basque, Briton, Alsacian, Lorain, Corse, Occitan, Provencal ... All those people bosically refer to them self as french people, but they refuse to forget their cultural inheritance. So after a while, the dialects became offical languages , and right now even the examination are conducts (if the student decide so) in the local languages. Things are more easy certainly, because mostly the gasp was simply cultural, but not religious, majority of the population is catholic, but since the creation of the Republic (let say 1790) we have muslims, black pagans as political person elected, and as we are a "meritocracy" promotion do not care about your religion. Another exemple, is about the various religious days. Legally there is ony the catholic ones that appear on the calendar, but the social code (Working Code) impose the various firm to protect the workers' religious right. Let say during the Ramadan, the muslims people will choose when they will come to the fabrics (mostly they prefer to work by night time, moment when they can eat and then be strong enought for work). Also, the governement have handle or subventionate the creation of various "places for pray", difficult to call that Mosque, I grew up in a muslim country, and I know well what is a mosque, nothing to deal with what was realised in france, but at least since 20 years the muslims community have decent places where they go when they need to pray (before that, mostly it was parking lots ... what a shame). That is what the basic people from any races, religions needs : have a decent, correct, respectful life ... independance is a word who is without real sense when you have the same things , the same living as your neightborought.

2) Against the so called "big boys" , those who put bombs, or kill "innocent people"; we choosed to consider against chacals we must use wolfs. Mean , they play hard, then we will play harder. It was a fact against the former OAS, against the Britton and Basques movement, against Action Direct, Mesrine also can be count inside, we did the same against the so called "muslims movement". In the middle of the 90' it was several bombing, in PAris first , then everywhere in France, even against the TGV. End of story was on the tv, in direct live show : in the neiborought of Lyon, the military police (Gendarmerie) was close to arrest one of the big boys ... the guy resited, trying to shoot the policement ... it was a nice fireworks ... that coupled with the plane hang in Marseille, with the highjackers asking to have kerozene enought to fly to PAris (wonder why?) where the governement also acted quickly and strongly have made thngs very smooth. Also, when some middle east countries (monarchy) full of oil, with a name looking like A.... S.... send some activist to teach the youth they are in a "roumi" country, mostly they discover floating in the old sea port of Marseille with the famous " Kabyle smile". Only wolfs can fight against chacals, but at least the sheeps will sleep quietly. Another exemple is the SAS in Northern Ireland ... they hitted hard, and then it was talking.

I always hear it's the War against Terror, Sun Tzu stated War is a game with rules, then we do have to accept the rules and play how those people want to play.