Thai Troops Retreat In Face Of 80,000 Protesters

[frodo]

but really folks ---- this isnt all about Thaksin ... oh wait he is speaking to the Reds again via a phone-in ...

THE NATION: "Foreign countries welcome Abhisit only because he represents Thailand, not because he's prime minister," Thaksin said.

huh? LOL --- umm he represents Thailand BECAUSE he is PM ... and Thaksin is not accepted in most developed nations BECAUSE he is a criminal on the run from justice!

Wait! Thaksin still thinks he is the PM.

An Address of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra

Upon Hearing The Asset Case’s Result

Friday, February 26, 2010

Today has marked a history of Thailand’s justice system. The seized asset of more than 40,000 millions was done on a claim that I benefited from higher stock prices due to my being Prime Minister. The surplus was interpreted as wrongdoings, and was entirely seized. This must be a joke to the world. Stock rising as a result of my being Prime Minister? When stocks rise, the entire market does.

Does this resembles the dissolution of Thai Rak Thai Party? Court was used as a tool. Government was well-aware of the coming verdict. The flag pointer and the protector of this government are one same person. I foresaw this bashing. Only how. My conclusion at this point is: when the country’s economy improves, I receive no share. But when assets of my family increase, I am accused of cheating and my assets were seized. Fairly good that they return what was mine before the political years by using the price of stock even though it comes from the same amount of stock.

Continued here: Thaksin

[commons]

There you go again...dammed if they do ....dammed if they dont. If just one of them says something a bit over the top....it's clear evidence that the whole movement

is violent.....if they do nothing, or back off a bit, they are cowards....if they engage in confrontation without violence....then its a victory for the government...or army...or somebody.

If one hot headed red makes a "violent rhetorical speech"...that should be the benchmark...never mind the hundreds of speeches and statements to the contrary made by other Reds.

If they only assemble 100,000+ on the first weekend...its a total failure.... they "promised a million" Actually they never "promised" anything...they may have had a goal

of getting a million people involved and if you add up all the people who have attended at various times they probably have.

when many of they go home on Monday or Tuesday because they have to make a living....even more evidence of failure

When tens of thousands more come to replace them....well of course that's just because they are being paid.

Everything is about Thaksin....if someone posts without being viciously anti-Thaksin....then they must be pro-Thaksin

If someone posts in a non biased " lets wait and see" mode....they are being deceptive....closet pro-Thaksin supporters.

I wonder....have you ever actually met or talked with any of these people? Do you really have a clue what they are really about?

They have "lost the war" and they know it???

Here is what I know: I live in a community where I am surrounded by red supporters.

I would say that 90% or more are not active (ie. they don't go to Bkk in pickup trucks to protest because they have work to do and families to feed)

Those that I have met who are active are very non-violent people..I recently had a whole work crew at my house doing some renovations...really good people...all pro-red.

Many of them think Thaksin was a hero....and many of them don't really like Thaksin any more than I do....for a variety of reasons.

They are not by any means all uneducated rice farmers... the family next door to me are university teachers and they support the reds

My wife monitors the red TV channel for about 14 hours a day...(and it drives me nuts)...and again she is a passive supporter but is not active. She most certainly does not

support acts of violent and disagrees totally with some of the red leaders statements and over the top rhetoric. Believe it or not a person can support a movement--without

agreeing with the extreme elements which seem to be present in most movements of this sort.

I know that your mind may be made up, but maybe somewhere in your makeup there may be just a little bit of space to acknowledge that everyone who puts on a red

T-shirt is not necessarily see Thaksin as a hero, nor are they a violent thug. Some of them may be a bit rough around the edges and I don't think their strategies are always well advised but that does not make them bad people.

I truly hope this whole situation an be resolved, but if the Thais are as vitriolic towards each other as the ex-pats seem to be then I feel it will not end well...and the ex-pats are not even directly involved...can you imagine if we were?? If you want to see real violence just wait for the protesters at the next G7/G8 meeting...or the trade unions in Greece when they get their "perks" cut.....or the French fishermen and farmers next them the subsides come up for review.

I fully expect to be accused of being a coy---or closet Thaksin supporter again....it's pretty standard operating procedure for some TV members.

I really don't know what else I can say to establish that I am not....believe whatever you like...as they say in Thailand "UP TO YOU"

I appreciate some of the well reasoned responses even when they disagree with my own views. There are good arguments to be made on both sides of this issue, What is not helpful to anyone are the nasty, disrespectful cheap shots that often seem to dominate these "discussions" These frequently come from the those who have for whatever reasons developed some kind of anti-Thaksin fixation. Personally I have many reasons to dislike Mr. Thaksin. I would not wish to buy a used car from the man, but to me he is not the real issue

thx for this post na. thx for sincerity & passion. i share your observations - as do many others.

_but_, if i may say so: individual experience... as "real" as it may appear..., does not necessarily lead to detached analysis, na?

1) i guess, you'll find many people who're more than willing to join the "spirits for change"; for better/equal distribution of social wealth, for eradication of corruption, for a judiciary that's strong enough to be free from _any_ kind of "special influences", etc na

2) there are 2 problems:

2a) thaksin. it's just over.

2b) this weird mixture of "popular" _anti_-movement, collaborating with obstructionist MP's - these guys & powers simply have shown again & again that they're _in now way_ capable of "managing" potential destructive challenges: that is, _these_ people simply _are not capable_ to unite, they strive on inciting "class-war", etc.

-

i guess, many of us share your experience na. & i also guess, some here on TV have become quite accustomed to dismiss a lot of "real reality" - i'm sorry, as a lot here on TV really is just opinionated mind-stuff without any corroboration.

thx 4 ur post: but again, _even_ if i (& others) share it; it's just a very limited individual experience - & i guess, it takes calm mind... to transform these significant individual experiences into a coherent strategy... for the benefit of all na :-)

thx 4 ur time

[arthurwait]

Red shirts should go back to school they're obviously in need of an education. Watching them makes a good case AGAINST democracy...sigh...

Do you not think their lack of education is one of the main things they are protesting about ?

Well, since Thaksin appointed himself Minister of Education when he was PM, you would think he and his in-control party would have solved the education problem for those he cares so much about. So I guess they are protesting against the wrong government. It should be the PTP MP's and the guy on the screen they need to ask "you were in control for 5 years. What did you do for us then?"

Don't get me wrong I think Taksin is a piece of shit and these protests ,on both sides the leaders are just about getting their feet under the corruption table, but some of the protesters have only the minimum free education here. What is it 6 years ? In schools with no funds and poor teaching that would probably leave them with an education probably a few years lower than a western child of that age, probably about the same as a British/western 8 year old. With that education they may not understand what is really going on like people on this board with a good education and believe thats what it's really about.

The ones who do have better education do know ,but want to improve it. One year doesn't make up for years of being shit on. How much of what has been done in the last year has just been promises and tricks of the eye and how much has actually been done ?

[commons]

deleted. tech problems.

Edited March 27, 2010 by commons

[dmsmoreira]

I will arrive Bangkok on 3/April.

Do you think that will be safe to stay 2/3 days in Bangkok?

I want to walk arround the Grand Palace and surrounding areas!

Or do you think that i should go to Phuket, Krabi, etc, right after i arrive Bangkok?

thanks in advance

Daniel

from Portugal

Dan, Bangkok is HUGE 15 million person at least.

There are so many places for people to go and see things,

reds can't be in all of them.

Get into town, chill out a bit, ask a tourist agent what's happening that day,

they should know, and just do something in another direction.

A bit of common sense and awareness and you should have no issues.

My country only have like 10 million!!!

My city only 20.000...

My plans are:

3/April Grande Palace and temples

4/April Floating Market and some other places

5/April Ayutuyha

6/7 April Sukhothai

........ beaches (Phuket, Krabi...)

and return to Bangkok on 15/April for 2 more days.

But still missing a week, so until then thing can be better and quietter !!!

[VegasVic]

Red shirts should go back to school they're obviously in need of an education. Watching them makes a good case AGAINST democracy...sigh...

How very Hiltleresque of you to make that obsevation

[animatic]

I will arrive Bangkok on 3/April.

Do you think that will be safe to stay 2/3 days in Bangkok?

I want to walk arround the Grand Palace and surrounding areas!

Or do you think that i should go to Phuket, Krabi, etc, right after i arrive Bangkok?

thanks in advance

Daniel

from Portugal

Dan, Bangkok is HUGE 15 million person at least.

There are so many places for people to go and see things,

reds can't be in all of them.

Get into town, chill out a bit, ask a tourist agent what's happening that day,

they should know, and just do something in another direction.

A bit of common sense and awareness and you should have no issues.

My country only have like 10 million!!!

My city only 20.000...

My plans are:

3/April Grande Palace and temples

4/April Floating Market and some other places

5/April Ayutuyha

6/7 April Sukhothai

........ beaches (Phuket, Krabi...)

and return to Bangkok on 15/April for 2 more days.

But still missing a week, so until then thing can be better and quietter !!!

Ambitious week.

Remember that time does NOT go as fast as you are used too.

If Boston is 60 second per minute, NYC is 50 sec. (in a New York minute),

Paris 90 seconds in a minute, South France 120 seconds to the minute.

and Bangkok figure on 180-240 seconds in a minute.

Jamaica mon is 15 minutes to 2 weeks to the "Ill be over on a minute."

In other words go with the flow and don't expect to get everything done,

but enjoy everything you CAN do. And likely find some unexpected things to do.

Sukothai and Ayuthai are significant distances apart, and drive time is... in precise,

you might get a good mini van or a plane that fits your schedule. You might not.

You will still have a fine trip.

[VegasVic]

Time (actually well past time) to get out the rubber bullets and water cannons and put these red shirted psychopaths where they belong and that is the f^&*%$l- p765e.

A bunch of absolute lunatics holding the country to ransom. And to boot some of these redshirted fiends are being egged on and supported by their 'farang boyfriends'

I would probably do the same if I want rid of her.

Any other country in the world would employ 'blocking technology' to stop the square faced man inciting sedition and treason.

Maybe Abhisit is using the same strategy that Geo Bush Jnr employed when someone wanted to create mischief and brought down the twin towers.

That brought abought the extermination of Saddams two son's and his own hanging. Job well done but 3,000 innocents had to die to achieve the objective.

Is the same game being played out here ??

"A bunch of absolute lunatics holding this country ransom" Krakatoa, were you refering to the yellow shirts taking over the Airport and bringing commerce and tourisim to a standstill? You also need to think about the fallout of using rubber bullets and water cannons on peaceful demonstrators, not only would it give Thailand another black eye, but it would likely incite a real uprising in the countryside and then the numbers you would be dealing with would be 10 or 20 fold of the current 80,000 I see you are one of those "lunatics" who believe that the U.S. governemnt was behind the attacks on the twin towers, how very sad for you, now the rest of your post makes perfect sense

[ericthai]

Elected by what kind of parliament ? What logic ?

A parliament where the leading party the PPP was disolved by a court ?

A parliament where even a naiv would suspect that many MPs switched side in exchange for

some kind amnesty in minor case of corruption ?

A parliament elected by the people ? Certainly not , the people elected another

parliament last time they were consulted . What democratic legitimacy has this parliament

anyway ?

<snip>

Moresomekl, how often do you come up with this, even though it is explained to you again and again in great detail.

You know the drill:

All the MPs are elected by the people. The majority of the MPs elect one of their own to be PM. Coalition alliances change, which means a different majority select another MP to be the PM. That's how the system works here. It's also very similar to a lot of British Commonwealth systems.

I know the system , as i have explained here so many times that am tired .

Thats not my point . Thank you

So what is your point...

[VegasVic]

Perhaps its just me, but isn't deploying 50,000 troops against 80,000 unarmed peaceful protesters a bit of overkill? I think the old addage "me thinks thou doth protest too much" has a bit of a corallary here

[featography]

moresomekl.

Abhisit was put in position by the parliamentary system not thugs, or by backhanders.

You seem to have a better grasp on the situation, you're the man step in tell we poor uneducated fools how you would deal with the matter..

Anyway its the past . When election come as they will

why is Abhisit not hiring pro communicators to run his election campaign .

How is it that he cant transmit the message to the poor that

Thaksin was a bad person .

I was in a village near Khorat not so long ago , before the current events

When i asked ppl there THaksin good ? Answer was always "Yes very good"

There lies the core of the problem

Problem, or answer?

[jdinasia]

Perhaps its just me, but isn't deploying 50,000 troops against 80,000 unarmed peaceful protesters a bit of overkill? I think the old addage "me thinks thou doth protest too much" has a bit of a corallary here

Yes, it is just you. 50,000 unarmed troops protecting 10+million mostly unarmed residents of Bangkok from 80,000 mostly unarmed redshirts that only have to change shirts to hide. Then there are sae Daeng and his grenades, and Arisman and his million 1 litre petrol bombs ... so ... yeah it is just you

[asiawatcher]

I would estimate violence is just around the corner...

[whiterussian]

I see you are one of those "lunatics" who believe that the U.S. governemnt was behind the attacks on the twin towers, how very sad for you, now the rest of your post makes perfect sense

Talking of twin towers this link was pointed out to me today, Prime Minister of Malaysia (1981 - 2003) Mahathir Mohamad personal blog

He is in the 911 cover up camp. http://chedet.co.cc/chedetblog/confronting-the-evidence.html. He doesn't mention whether he is MIHOP or LIHOP. The Japanese parliament in 2008- has also debated if the towers were brought down by explosives. And why not? Thaksin had the green light to exterminate heroin dealers up north here by the thousand... whats the difference in policy?

[ericthai]

Wonderful. A people that are labelled as red shirts-but in actuality have the guts/balls to face a gov't that has been put into power illegitimately. You Brits,American etc. can learn a lot from them. Your gov'ts have taken away most of what you enjoyed living for and with. How dare you criticise these protesters. Take your shirts-off and look back at the mirror..you see the yellow streak. I don't need to see your bare backs to know what nervous-paranoid-desperate-self-motivated opportunist and cowards you are. Sitting at your notebook or PC and criticising others who have the guts to make what was wrong, right again. Irregardless, who these protesters are...they are doing the RIGHT thing..what have YOU done to make it right in YOUR country? ..I thougt so.

Do you realize that about 95% of the reds doing the right thing are getting paid to do this and if they were not getting paid would not be there?

Dont stop with America and Britain there are many more, I don't believe there is one country in this word that will not have people that dont agree with it, you cant please everyone..

[britmaveric]

Thaksin has a lot of crimes he has yet to answer for. When he gets his day in court for each of them it may actually come to life in prison but not if they run sentences concurrently.

I think you will be dead/buried before that happens JD.

[mca]

Yes, it is just you. 50,000 unarmed troops protecting 10+million mostly unarmed residents of Bangkok from 80,000 mostly unarmed redshirts that only have to change shirts to hide.

I think it's stretching the limits of credibility to expect that the entire group of 80000 [including grannies] would suddenly go on the rampage don't you jd?

That would be the mother of all riots!

[jdinasia]

Thaksin has a lot of crimes he has yet to answer for. When he gets his day in court for each of them it may actually come to life in prison but not if they run sentences concurrently.

I think you will be dead/buried before that happens JD.

I'll outlive you by a fair number of years and that aint just counting the sambuca! But I think I will live to see Thaksin jailed for some time at least, and that isn't a bad thing!

[VegasVic]

Yes thats the point of demonstrating

That is the most utterly ridiculous statement I have ever heard any Thaksin apologist make. The point of demonstrating is to make people aware of your cause and hopefully win their support through peaceful and non intrusive means. If your only goal is to inconvenience your fellow countrymen and impinge on their civil liberties because they disagree with you, then you clearly have no business protesting at all. That is the time where protesters deserve to be gassed and sent home.

Wonderful. A people that are labelled as red shirts-but in actuality have the guts/balls to face a gov't that has been put into power illegitimately. You Brits,American etc. can learn a lot from them. Your gov'ts have taken away most of what you enjoyed living for and with. How dare you criticise these protesters. Take your shirts-off and look back at the mirror..you see the yellow streak. I don't need to see your bare backs to know what nervous-paranoid-desperate-self-motivated opportunist and cowards you are. Sitting at your notebook or PC and criticising others who have the guts to make what was wrong, right again. Irregardless, who these protesters are...they are doing the RIGHT thing..what have YOU done to make it right in YOUR country? ..I thougt so.

Please do not generalise . Many if not most farangs , those i know at least , can see the point of the current demonstration and are symphatetic . Both parties have to compromise i guess . The red shirts on Thaksin because of his past behavior , and the governement on free and fair elections asap . If they do both side win , and Thailand wins .

"The point of demonstrating is to..........if your only goal is to inconvienence your fellow countrymen and impinge on their civil liberties.... you clearly have no business protesting at all", Very well stated greb! I must assume you told all those nasty yellow shirts the same thing when they layed seige to the airport and brought the commerce of this nation to a standstill so they could put their puppet abhisit in power My my, the hypocrycy that weaves its way through this thread is truely amazing

[moresomekl]

So what happens when the army decides not to back down in a particular situation?

Eventually, there is going to be violence.

And the reds will come up with some lame propaganda to say that it was Abhisit's fault.

If you give the yellow shirt carte blanc to do as they choose to achieve their goals while the police and army observed a strict hands off approach you can understand that the red shirts expect the same response or is there a difference in their treatment? Silly me...of course there is!!!

An excellent observation !

[jdinasia]

Yes, it is just you. 50,000 unarmed troops protecting 10+million mostly unarmed residents of Bangkok from 80,000 mostly unarmed redshirts that only have to change shirts to hide.

I think it's stretching the limits of credibility to expect that the entire group of 80000 [including grannies] would suddenly go on the rampage don't you jd?

That would be the mother of all riots!

Ummm actually I would only expect a few 1000 to be in on any riots. However for crowd control etc they will certainly need folks on the ground at multiple locations and you did cut out the bits about Sae Daeng and his grenades and Arisman and his petrol bombs that absolutely must be considered.

[VegasVic]

Perhaps its just me, but isn't deploying 50,000 troops against 80,000 unarmed peaceful protesters a bit of overkill? I think the old addage "me thinks thou doth protest too much" has a bit of a corallary here

Yes, it is just you. 50,000 unarmed troops protecting 10+million mostly unarmed residents of Bangkok from 80,000 mostly unarmed redshirts that only have to change shirts to hide. Then there are sae Daeng and his grenades, and Arisman and his million 1 litre petrol bombs ... so ... yeah it is just you

Oh my goodness JD, methinks you doth protest too much

[jdinasia]

So what happens when the army decides not to back down in a particular situation?

Eventually, there is going to be violence.

And the reds will come up with some lame propaganda to say that it was Abhisit's fault.

If you give the yellow shirt carte blanc to do as they choose to achieve their goals while the police and army observed a strict hands off approach you can understand that the red shirts expect the same response or is there a difference in their treatment? Silly me...of course there is!!!

An excellent observation !

Huh? gads how to address the cluelessness of this and the facts ......

1) You are not taking into account Sept and October and the PAD.

2) You are not taking into account the fact that there are different governments in place and that the Samak and Somchai governments had badly used the police on Oct7th.

3) You are not taking into account that 2 wrongs don't make a right (but 3 lefts do).

edit to add -----

If things were truly equal then you would have expected a crackdown using rdx laced teargas from faulty Chinese military ordinance, launched into the redshirts after cutting off their escape routes. Thankfully a saner and more decent government is now in place.

Edited March 27, 2010 by jdinasia

[Frankster]

In 1992 the army killed 800 protesters in Bangkok .. It can happen again ...

Cheers

[moresomekl]

Yes thats the point of demonstrating

That is the most utterly ridiculous statement I have ever heard any Thaksin apologist make. The point of demonstrating is to make people aware of your cause and hopefully win their support through peaceful and non intrusive means. If your only goal is to inconvenience your fellow countrymen and impinge on their civil liberties because they disagree with you, then you clearly have no business protesting at all. That is the time where protesters deserve to be gassed and sent home.

Wonderful. A people that are labelled as red shirts-but in actuality have the guts/balls to face a gov't that has been put into power illegitimately. You Brits,American etc. can learn a lot from them. Your gov'ts have taken away most of what you enjoyed living for and with. How dare you criticise these protesters. Take your shirts-off and look back at the mirror..you see the yellow streak. I don't need to see your bare backs to know what nervous-paranoid-desperate-self-motivated opportunist and cowards you are. Sitting at your notebook or PC and criticising others who have the guts to make what was wrong, right again. Irregardless, who these protesters are...they are doing the RIGHT thing..what have YOU done to make it right in YOUR country? ..I thougt so.

Please do not generalise . Many if not most farangs , those i know at least , can see the point of the current demonstration and are symphatetic . Both parties have to compromise i guess . The red shirts on Thaksin because of his past behavior , and the governement on free and fair elections asap . If they do both side win , and Thailand wins .

"The point of demonstrating is to..........if your only goal is to inconvienence your fellow countrymen and impinge on their civil liberties.... you clearly have no business protesting at all", Very well stated greb! I must assume you told all those nasty yellow shirts the same thing when they layed seige to the airport and brought the commerce of this nation to a standstill so they could put their puppet abhisit in power My my, the hypocrycy that weaves its way through this thread is truely amazing

Of course the point of demonstrating is to put the demonstrators grievances forward . By doing so they will cause disruption but disruption has to be maintained within the limit of law and order and basic civil rights . If you had followed this thread you would know that am definitely not defending the yellows , blocking the airport and innocent tourists was totally unnaceptable

[britmaveric]

Thaksin has a lot of crimes he has yet to answer for. When he gets his day in court for each of them it may actually come to life in prison but not if they run sentences concurrently.

I think you will be dead/buried before that happens JD.

I'll outlive you by a fair number of years and that aint just counting the sambuca! But I think I will live to see Thaksin jailed for some time at least, and that isn't a bad thing!

Maybe you can place Khun T. bones behind bars in 60yrs if that makes you feel any better?

[yoshiwara]

In 1992 the army killed 800 protesters in Bangkok .. It can happen again ...

Cheers

Chalk and cheese.

This time the demonstrators are tools of a convicted criminal and also would like to set off the violence if they can avoid the blame.

[britmaveric]

Or maybe the regime would like to cause violence?

[mazeltov]

Might I point out, vis a vis electiveness, that Abhisit was in fact elected, and Mr T never, ever was elected, in his own right? He lost the BKK governor race, and from then on was canny enough to run as a party list contender. Overall, the Democrats are where they are now through legal, systemic means -- whether one agrees with the decisions that forced the outcome or not.

in the 2007 election Abhisit was on the party list for the proportional vote in zone 6 (Bangkok, Nonthaburi, Samut Prakan)

Chuan Leekpai also used his popularity to be first place on the party list for the south (zone 8)

so what is your point?

IMHO nothing wrong with being a party list candidate, some people here argue otherwise and i read at this board a couple of times the false claim that Abhisit got his seat per 'direct' vote.

to add some numbers:

in zone 6 (Bangkok, Nonthaburi, Samut Prakan) the Party list of the Democrats lead by Abhisit got 50,6 % (1,880,957 votes), the party list of the PPP, with Samak on top, got 41,4% (1,540,307 votes).

so its true in Bangkok & surroundings most of the people tend to the democrats, but its a myth that the PPP ( and related) doesn't have any support at all. and not forget, lot of people living and working in bangkok don't vote here, but back in their home provinces.

http://www.ect.go.th/english/2007%20Mp.html

(btw. do you know that Suthep had to resign from his MP seat, he got disqualified by EC for having violated the constitution.)

[VegasVic]

So what happens when the army decides not to back down in a particular situation?

Eventually, there is going to be violence.

And the reds will come up with some lame propaganda to say that it was Abhisit's fault.

If you give the yellow shirt carte blanc to do as they choose to achieve their goals while the police and army observed a strict hands off approach you can understand that the red shirts expect the same response or is there a difference in their treatment? Silly me...of course there is!!!

An excellent observation !

Yes indeed an excellent (and obvious) observation