What Are The Downsides Of Using Lpg Vs Benzene?

[INTJ]

I will state again as many people have chosen to ignore my previous comments

I have personally done over 200,000km over the last 5 years on LPG with zero problems.

Does anybody have personal experience of engine failure due to LPG ?

LPG has been used extensively in Australia for over 30 years, and two of the biggest LPG users are Italy and Japan. This is not something new.

But for everyone who wants to believe that LPG will damage your engine..........better stick with your 30+ baht a litre fuel just to be on the safe side.

Cheers

[seedy]

.All closed minded and rigid, in the box thinking is considered "old school"...

Hmmm

- my last build was a 2.2 litre 4-banger to which we added a turbo, intercooler, ported and polished the head, forged crank and rods, home-made header from 304 stainless, etc. A far cry from my 1966 389 6-pack which was my first attempt.

[katabeachbum]

I will state again as many people have chosen to ignore my previous comments

I have personally done over 200,000km over the last 5 years on LPG with zero problems. and my 2000 Excursion 6,8 V10 LPG has 360k km on it without engine probs whats your 200k km engine/LPG setup?

Does anybody have personal experience of engine failure due to LPG ? yepp, plenty. Honda and Toyota 4 valve 4 pots. all before 100k km. better valves, head and sometimes pistons can make them do another 2-300k km. Thats +100k baht in Scandinavia and 2 weeks out of taxi business.

LPG has been used extensively in Australia for over 30 years, and two of the biggest LPG users are Italy and Japan. This is not something new . please ad Holland and Canada.

and Volvo taxis in Goteborg

But for everyone who wants to believe that LPG will damage your engine..........better stick with your 30+ baht a litre fuel just to be on the safe side.

LPG wil give most engine premature damages

Cheers

[INTJ]

"LPG wil give most engine premature damages"

Oh, thats a good "generalisation". Generalisations are general statements or opinions which are only partly true because they are based on a few cases or incomplete knowledge......lets try some more

* Married people are boring.

* Footballers are not intelligent.

* You can't be friends with your boss.

* Old people have no fun.

* Men are bad at languages.

* Young girls are brighter than young boys.

* Engineers and accountants are very rational people.

* Mathematics are for intelligent people.

* All politicians are corrupt.

* Rich people have a great life.

* Top sports stars have fewer worries than most other workers.

* City people are more cultured than those from the country.

* People who talk a lot don't say much.

* People who act are basically exhibitionists.

* Artists are different from most people.

* Poor people are happy in their own way.

Cheers

Edited July 4, 2010 by INTJ

[katabeachbum]

"LPG wil give most engine premature damages"

according to most engine manufactorers

it can still be good economic gains in running LPG

[INTJ]

"Most Toyota 4 pot with simple LPG system dont last 100k km"

Do you have any proof of this, or is it another "generalisation" ?

"LPG wil give most engine premature damages"

"according to most engine manufactorers"

How many km have you done on LPG ? What were your experiences ?

Cheers

Edited July 4, 2010 by INTJ

[katabeachbum]

"Most Toyota 4 pot with simple LPG system dont last 100k km"

Do you have any proof of this, or is it another "generalisation" ?

"LPG wil give most engine premature damages"

"according to most engine manufactorers"

How many km have you done on LPG ? What were your experiences ?

Cheers

. My company equipped Honda and Toyota 4 pot/4 valve taxis with LPG systems, in co op with Honda and Toyota to maintain warranty on vehicle. Within 100k km all burned valves, some heads and a few pistons. These where advanced computercontrolled systems automaticly starting engines on petrol, and running petrol until evaporator working properly at 65C coolingliquid temp was achived. 2 stroke oil injection was not used since that would make emission illegal.

There is another thread here on this, so better read this than having me write it all again.

Oh, how many km? less than 500k km I guess

I m presently looking at blending 30-50% LPG with diesel in my 2010 Vigo 3,0 D4D VNturbo. Still looking for a kit, to avoid having to do all the testing from scratch

[INTJ]

I take it this was not done in Thailand.......not that it makes a difference, just that I don't ever recall seeing a Honda taxi-meter here, is that because of incompatability with LPG ?

Cheers

[katabeachbum]

<BR>I take it this was not done in Thailand.......not that it makes a difference, just that I don't ever recall seeing a Honda taxi-meter here, is that because of incompatability with LPG ?<BR><BR>Cheers<BR>

<BR><BR>LPG was done in Scandinavia, on cars/trucks/suv for Scandinavian market and SUV for Russian market.<BR><BR>Honda LOS (like BMW and Lexus) doesnt want their cars to be used as taxis. So they dont discount to taxi buyers, dont offer LPG/CNG factoryfitted, dont sell low spec editions prefered by taxibuyers.<BR><BR>Hondas 3,5 V6 at approx 280 hp as in their Pickup and Accord works fine on LPG since 2003 as I recall<BR><BR><BR>

[WarpSpeed]

I think that mr and mrs average driver wants to go to the shops and back, end of story. Doesn't want to know about racer tech to keep it going. Either LPG does the job no problem or keep using the stuff the manufacturer recommends for looooong engine life.

You're really hung up on this racer crap aren't you? It's really making you look stoooopid that you don't know it applies in all cases to everyday street cars! And most entertaining is your lack of recognition of such because that's what they are, street legal trim, fuels and engines for the most part on street legal tires too but you're lack of capacity to understand that is shining a stunningly bright light on a dim response by you..

By your logic then they shouldn't need to change the oil, watch the levels of any fluids nor make sure their car is properly tuned for any fuel?? Just get in and go! Nah doesn't make a lot of sense does it when spelled out like that so maybe you should stop TRYING to sound intelligent about it and just drop it because you're missing the mark by a country mile..Owning a car requires standard maintenance and tuning no matter what, they aren't maintenance free and run forever without upkeep, fluids and TUNING period....

And anyway I'm talking about my personal street car with no mods what-so-ever...

I wonder how many geniuses on here know that Toyota has actually made an LPG model engine called an MLPG back in the 60's it was based on the 2M engine so famous for longevity and durability as well as good power of the time...Since no infrastructure and the cheap cost for fuel back then (I remember my mom buying fuel .25 per gallon at the corner CITGO) no market to go mainstream though at the time..

Edited July 6, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

.All closed minded and rigid, in the box thinking is considered "old school"...

Hmmm

- my last build was a 2.2 litre 4-banger to which we added a turbo, intercooler, ported and polished the head, forged crank and rods, home-made header from 304 stainless, etc. A far cry from my 1966 389 6-pack which was my first attempt.

Then I guess that maybe it wasn't directed at you but still you mentioned nothing but ad ons what did you actually do that required you to design and engineer anything and not get your info from an internet site somewhere??

I'd also be curious as to whether or not you did it or you just did like most here and paid someone else to do it and claimed fame for it?? JFYI Stainless headers are for bolt on looks and durability not performance..You''ll never see stainless on a real performance engine...

[WarpSpeed]

"LPG wil give most engine premature damages"

Oh, thats a good "generalisation". Generalisations are general statements or opinions which are only partly true because they are based on a few cases or incomplete knowledge......lets try some more

* Married people are boring.

* Footballers are not intelligent.

* You can't be friends with your boss.

* Old people have no fun.

* Men are bad at languages.

* Young girls are brighter than young boys.

* Engineers and accountants are very rational people.

* Mathematics are for intelligent people.

* All politicians are corrupt.

* Rich people have a great life.

* Top sports stars have fewer worries than most other workers.

* City people are more cultured than those from the country.

* People who talk a lot don't say much.

* People who act are basically exhibitionists.

* Artists are different from most people.

* Poor people are happy in their own way.

Cheers

Excellent... not putting oil in your car will cause premature damages too..

So as stated repeatedly it comes down to the owner the installer/tuner and the regular mechanic to understand and properly tune your car. The chart below shows only a slight increase in burn temps over gasoline so how come it is claimed that it causes so much internal damage it is still my educated opinion that most damage is caused by improper tuning between fuels which if not properly tuned on it's own gasoline would cause damage but if tuned primarily for LP then even short periods of running on gasoline (or benzine) as it referred to here would cause internal damage such that the higher temps of LP would cause premature damage and be the suspect catalyst in that damage.

and here's the link..

LP verus Gasoline

LP's ignition rate is nearly twice as high as Gasoline but they burn at about the same temp well within maximum norms of the average engine tolerances..

Edited July 6, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Warpy's upset again, blimey it's hard work. Think we better have a WARPY MOTORING FORUM so he's in charge.

Slagging people off who have an opinion, me included, is a bit rich from a grocery getter car racer. I give up, (not really). .

Your post to me is complete &lt;deleted&gt;, so my 85 year old mum must put on her overalls and get under the car every weekend, you silly bloke. Most modern cars need sod all done at a service cos it's all computorised, ignition, injection, gone are the days of points change and twiddling the distributer cos it's out of tune. Simple, it's called progress, BUT that is with PETROL, get it.

Better then T/A motoring forum where all that is posted is baseless &lt;deleted&gt;..Your 85 year old mother every weekend? Who's the silly bloke again?! And that is exactly WHY you get "slagged off" as you call it, you beg for it...... Though I like to refer to it as setting the record straight and the less knowledgeable masses too.. Hel_l I just look at your atrocious spelling, I don't usually make mention but when one so thick keeps attempting to slag me off I just have to make mention, how can you possibly understand anything being presented when you have such problems with basic spelling?

Edited July 6, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[katabeachbum]

I wonder how many geniuses on here know that Toyota has actually made an LPG model engine called an MLPG back in the 60's it was based on the 2M engine so famous for longevity and durability as well as good power of the time...Since no infrastructure and the cheap cost for fuel back then (I remember my mom buying fuel .25 per gallon at the corner CITGO) no market to go mainstream though at the time..

and today Toyota LOS makes Altis with CNG. More than 40 parts are replaced in the engine to cope with CNG high combustion temperature and maintain 100k km warranty.

[initiala4]

Some of the LPG cars that I see are poorly tuned which can be quite dangerous to the engine. Some of these cars wouldn't be able to do Wide open throttles with plenty of knocking.

[stevehaigh]

I m presently looking at blending 30-50% LPG with diesel in my 2010 Vigo 3,0 D4D VNturbo. Still looking for a kit, to avoid having to do all the testing from scratch

how's that going? love to know more.

[katabeachbum]

I m presently looking at blending 30-50% LPG with diesel in my 2010 Vigo 3,0 D4D VNturbo. Still looking for a kit, to avoid having to do all the testing from scratch

how's that going? love to know more.

so far only found kits for large diesels. I d prefere an electronic controlled system (not allowing drivers error) always starting on pure diesel, so keep searching.

previously done this on large diesels. 20-40% more power and good saving on fuel

output for Vigo 3,0 with pressure chips, removed cat and LPG should be 270-280 hp/ 580-600Nm at 1400-3500rpm. pollution less, fuelcost less and range on full diesel- and LPG tank +1100km.

[INTJ]

output for Vigo 3,0 with pressure chips, removed cat and LPG should be 270-280 hp

With original turbo ? What are pressure chips ?

Cheers

[katabeachbum]

output for Vigo 3,0 with pressure chips, removed cat and LPG should be 270-280 hp

With original turbo ? What are pressure chips ?

Cheers

Pressure chips is the most common used performance box/ piggy back for commonraildiesels. Sold in LOS at approx 11.000 baht and gains approx 25-30% on both HP and tourque. It simply increases pressure in commonrailsystem. There is another thread on this.

cat is designed for max 220 hp/430Nm, so it needs to be replaced with larger, or removed. Since its not needed to manage EuroIII requirements there s no need to spend money on a new.

LPG blended with diesel improves power

No need for any other mod for this power, just increase auto trans cooling 3 x original

[INTJ]

So are you saying that a 163 hp Vigo with a piggyback ECU (20% gain), LPG and cats removed can make 280 hp on the stock turbo ?

Cheers

[katabeachbum]

So are you saying that a 163 hp Vigo with a piggyback ECU (20% gain), LPG and cats removed can make 280 hp on the stock turbo ?

Cheers

piggyback ECU (20% gain is your number, not mine or suppliers), LPG blended diesel and removed cat 270-280 hp is obtainable on stock VN turbo.

based on previous experience with LPG blended large displacement diesel engines

This engine/turbo can deliver +250 hp only by replacing Thai ECU with Euro ECU and piggyback

[INTJ]

Those figures are quite impressive if true.

Cheers

[WarpSpeed]

I wonder how many geniuses on here know that Toyota has actually made an LPG model engine called an MLPG back in the 60's it was based on the 2M engine so famous for longevity and durability as well as good power of the time...Since no infrastructure and the cheap cost for fuel back then (I remember my mom buying fuel .25 per gallon at the corner CITGO) no market to go mainstream though at the time..

and today Toyota LOS makes Altis with CNG. More than 40 parts are replaced in the engine to cope with CNG high combustion temperature and maintain 100k km warranty.

Which means Toyota knew the risks from the start of using CNG and would have done hundreds of hours of factory testing to log any part damage or failure on that particular engine type. From your research CLEARLY there WAS a detrimental effect on their engineering using a different fuel type.

I know your slow but I'll help you out this once as I feel sorry for developmentally handicapped sorts.... What it means is that there was no market nor infrastructure for LP at the time but they were light years ahead of the market and made it functional and practical way ahead of it's time...

[enginerevision]

LPG / CNG is for cooking, not in engines.. I always say. I've opened up various engines in my garage which ran on LPG, it doesn't look nice at all inside. Petrol is better, since it has a cooling effect also, when it burns. And when you over-rev the engine ( only with ecu controlled engines ), the ecu cuts of the ignition, and petrol keeps flowing, to cool the pistons. With LPG you don't have this... as it keeps burning hot.

[INTJ]

"LPG / CNG is for cooking, not in engines"

Perhaps you should share your wisdom with Toyota, GM and Tata as they seem to disagree.

Cheers

[katabeachbum]

"LPG / CNG is for cooking, not in engines"

Perhaps you should share your wisdom with Toyota, GM and Tata as they seem to disagree.

Cheers

Engines designed or modified to run CNG or LPG seem to do ok for 3-400k km. To the above, ad Volvo, Mitsu, Proton, Ford/Internatinal D, GM/Detroit D, Caterpillar, Dodge 5,2/5,9/8,0, Ford 6,8 .

[enginerevision]

"LPG / CNG is for cooking, not in engines"

Perhaps you should share your wisdom with Toyota, GM and Tata as they seem to disagree.

Cheers

Back here in Europe LPG / CNG is not much populair, the same goes for the bio fuels mixed with ethanol. But in Asia I can understand, because of the extreme pollution. LPG/CNG burns much cleaner, which is good for the enviroment.

LPG was never populair here, because of the high taxes for a LPG registered car, unlike in Asia. Although LPG costs less than petrol, it was never promoted. The trend here seems to be hybrid ( petrol/electric ). And in Asia it's LPG/CNG and Bio fuels.

Anyhow mostly all taxis etc in Thailand drive on LPG. I once asks a few taxi drivers why LPG and not petrol? Their answer: cheaper . Cheap !

Edited July 12, 2010 by enginerevision

[katabeachbum]

"LPG / CNG is for cooking, not in engines"

Perhaps you should share your wisdom with Toyota, GM and Tata as they seem to disagree.

Cheers

Back here in Europe LPG / CNG is not much populair, the same goes for the bio fuels mixed with ethanol. But in Asia I can understand, because of the extreme pollution. LPG/CNG burns much cleaner, which is good for the enviroment.

LPG was never populair here, because of the high taxes for a LPG registered car, unlike in Asia. Although LPG costs less than petrol, it was never promoted. The trend here seems to be hybrid ( petrol/electric ). And in Asia it's LPG/CNG and Bio fuels.

Anyhow mostly all taxis etc in Thailand drive on LPG. I once asks a few taxi drivers why LPG and not petrol? Their answer: cheaper . Cheap !

LPG is being phased out as fuel here since it is partly imported. So far taxis and trucks with more than 6 wheels have not been allowed to install LPG at all past 2 years. Focus is on domestically produced CNG, resulting in more and more taxis and large trucks on CNG

Most countries in Europe does not have higher taxes for LPG registered cars. Thailand has tax incentives for different fuel systems, CNG, Biodiesel, Ethanol petrol, and hybrid.

[monty]

Most countries in Europe does not have higher taxes for LPG registered cars.

In Belgium sure is! yearly road tax is much higher when running on LPG. I think currently you pay an extra 208 Euro/year (8500 Baht)

Their reasoning is that they have to compensate for less excise revenue when you run on LPG

[monty]

I still think that LPG is a very viable option, apart from the few vehicles known to really get very pre-mature damage. With that I mean the few vehicles which can be expected to be needing a top-end overhaul in less then 100,000 KM (BMW springs to mind).

All the rest, just do it if you do enough KM. The numbers and savings do not lie! And then you have the cars which can run forever on LPG without any damage (VW, Volvo etc...)

Putting in LPG is virtually always done for cost savings (doubt people do it to save the environment!), so you decide on cost savings projections and base on that.

A vehicle burning 10 liters/100 km (10km/liter)will currently save 1.6 Baht/km. Based on 30 Baht/liter petrol, 11.5 Baht for LPG with 20% more consumption running on LPG...

So after 100,000 KM, you are 160,000 Baht ahead on fuel costs. Minus 50,000 Baht for a top end electronic injection system. That's 110,000 Baht ahead. If you manage to run 150,000 K's before needing a top end overhaul, you will have to pay for it out of 190,000 Baht savings on fuel. Heck, you can buy a couple of spare engines for that money

Who cares if your valves are going to wear out double as fast...