Motorcycle Accident

[rics21]

Back from the police station. Police was fairly neutral, saying as there were no witnesses (there probably were but nobody stopped to give a statement I guess), he could not say who was at fault. It's my story against the samlor. He said that the samlor was not supposed to have crossed the road where he did, and I was not supposed to be in the right lane. The samlor asked for 30,000 baht. I offered them 4000 baht, which I already think is too much. They were not happy and said they will sue. The police said we should solve this matter now as suing will cost both parties a lot more money than 30,000. My girlfriend was with me and she wants to see and end to this, so (without asking me) she offered them 5000 + we would repair his bike. They said they will meet again at 2pm and tell their decision to the police. It is now 3pm and we have not yet heard anything from them. The police said if we can not agree on anything, he will ask the doctor (who took care of us at the hospital) to write down our injuries and then the samlor driver can use it in court to prove that he was more injured than me and I should be responsible.

I have never sued anyone but according to most people I've talked to it should not be an easy thing to do and where they will get the money to hire a lawyer I don't know. He is claiming that repairing the bike costs something like 7000 and he hasn't been able to work for months. So I guess it's back to waiting again.

How likely do you guys think it is that he will be able to sue me?

sadly, the answer is YES. he will sue u, if he aint taking the money now, he is up to something and is ready to bring lots of shit to u.

my recommendation:

look for a lawyer, ask the GF, she knows anyone trustworthy?

u seriously need a lawyer right now, if not, i guess u wont be able to sleep well anyway.

u need to legal consult and knowledge on the consequences if found guilty. its time to weight pros n cons.

i last mentioned that legal consult is too ex here, but i never expect the samlor to ask for 30k. its too much.

the system here is kinda conrupted, u r a farang, and is venerable to this evil system. u need a thai pu yai or a lawyer to talk to the samlor, i dont think u GF is good in negotiation.

check the rates of the legal services 1st. get back to us if u need anything!

good luck!

[onnut]

doesnt your girlfriend know anybody in the police, army or government? most Thais do. if so get them to speak with this samlor driver. he is pushing you coz of you being a farang, if you go forward with a Thai official who you know you can trust, then he will back off and take the 5k your girlfriend offered.

[elliss]

I would ignore her. Do let your insurance company know what is happening also.

BTW, it sounds like it is his fault by the way you have discribed it here.

fundametals ,

one of the first things you should do ,

when living in the LOScams .

is to aquaint your self with a reputable solicitor .

if possible, one that is recommended by farangs

i have a lady solicitor in udon ,,,

she detests thai people , ripping of farangs. :jap:

[MikeyIdea]

Back from the police station. Police was fairly neutral, saying as there were no witnesses (there probably were but nobody stopped to give a statement I guess), he could not say who was at fault. It's my story against the samlor. He said that the samlor was not supposed to have crossed the road where he did, and I was not supposed to be in the right lane. The samlor asked for 30,000 baht. I offered them 4000 baht, which I already think is too much. They were not happy and said they will sue. The police said we should solve this matter now as suing will cost both parties a lot more money than 30,000. My girlfriend was with me and she wants to see and end to this, so (without asking me) she offered them 5000 + we would repair his bike. They said they will meet again at 2pm and tell their decision to the police. It is now 3pm and we have not yet heard anything from them. The police said if we can not agree on anything, he will ask the doctor (who took care of us at the hospital) to write down our injuries and then the samlor driver can use it in court to prove that he was more injured than me and I should be responsible.

I have never sued anyone but according to most people I've talked to it should not be an easy thing to do and where they will get the money to hire a lawyer I don't know. He is claiming that repairing the bike costs something like 7000 and he hasn't been able to work for months. So I guess it's back to waiting again.

How likely do you guys think it is that he will be able to sue me?

I would pay maximum 400 bath to the police and if I have insurance not one single bath to the samlor guy. I would never do or say what you did.

Several things are incorrect in this story

The police wants to solve it now. Ha, of course, the police will be blamed by the district atterney for doing his job badly if he fails to get you two to do that

The doctor can say what he wants but Thai law does not automatically give the less wounded responsibility in an accident, Rubbish. That judges are only humans though so they will be inclined to support the poorer person with nothing in life a bit. Note a bit. A bit is NOT 3 months salary.

Thai Civil law does not support 3rd level expenses. Only expenses that are directly linked to the case can be covered. Sample: If you hire a lawyer to do your work permit and he loses your passport, then the law covers direct expenses as getting the new passport, taking photographs etc but not the airplane ticket for the trip you had to take because the lawyer made you lose your visa. Translated to this case, only direct hospital expenses and repair of his bike are covered. That he can't work because of his injury is his problem. That is the law. The court (read the judge) may still award a small amount to the poor samlor guy if he feels sorry for him. I am sure that as the samlor guy shouldn't have crossed where he did, it will be a small amount, maximum a few thousand bath. And to be honest, it is unlikely that he will get all his lawyers expenses covered too for the same reason. The judge knows that it's actually not (only) your fault.

Repair to a samlor bicycle can hardly be more than 1,000 bath. 7,000 is a total joke and you are being ripped off.

I recommend that you go back to the police station, Don't bring the wife this time, and say that you have decided to accept what you (the wife) already have promised, 5,000 bath and that you will accept to pay 1,000 bath for repairs of the samlor and if the samlor driver doesn't like it, then he can go to court. Then say thank you and walk out!

The police is pulling your leg because you don't know Thai law, and neither does the gf (not blaming, most Thais don't so that's just normal)

rics think the guy will sue but there is no way that he ever will. He could possible get more in court than you are offering him now, 5,000 + 1,000 but he'll lose more on the expenses that the court will not award him - accepting is economically his best choice for sure.

As onnut says, you get someone to push a bit OR you simply say what you are prepared to pay and then ignore the samlor guy and politely tell the police that this is the end, accept or see you in court and the samlor will continue to try a bit, then accept.

Edited November 18, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[GarryP]

I recommend that you go back to the police station, Don't bring the wife this time, and say that you have decided to accept what you (the wife) already have promised, 5,000 bath and that you will accept to pay 1,000 bath for repairs of the samlor and if the samlor driver doesn't like it, then he can go to court. Then say thank you and walk out!

The police is pulling your leg because you don't know Thai law, and neither does the gf (not blaming, most Thais don't so that's just normal)

rics think the guy will sue but there is no way that he ever will. He could possible get more in court than you are offering him now, 5,000 + 1,000 but he'll lose more on the expenses that the court will not award him - accepting is economically his best choice for sure.

As onnut says, you get someone to push a bit OR you simply say what you are prepared to pay and then ignore the samlor guy and politely tell the police that this is the end, accept or see you in court and the samlor will continue to try a bit, then accept.

That is quite sensible advice. He is not going to sue you. It is an idle threat and even if he did he is going to get nowhere near the amount he wants. He sees you as a cash cow. The policeman involved may be looking to make something out of this too.

[Baannok]

Thanks for your replies. They called my gf and said they would accept her offer of 5000 + repair of samlor (7000), total 12000. I was a bit upset when I heard this as I think this is too much. However, she is tired of dealing with this (so am I really) and a few other Thai people I've talked to say I should just pay it to get this over with (as this is Thai culture and you are the farang, haha).

I'd like to do what MikeyIdea suggests, pay him 5000 and 1000 for the repairs, if they don't take it, go to court. However, I'm not rich and I would hate to end up spending tens of thousands on lawyers and court fees if they really manage to take it to court. I also get a feeling the police will get a slice of the 12000. He made it clear, like MikeyIdea said, that the judge will most likely sympathize with the samlor driver as he was hurt more and he is poorer than me. The Thais (on my side) I've spoken to said the police will back the samlor driver as he is poorer than me, not because I was at fault.

Anyway, I have NOT signed anything yet of course. My gf says she will go and pay 10000 tomorrow if I agree. So I'm posting this to see what you guys will reply with tonight.

Edit:

The police did not mention any 400 baht fine. Perhaps he will bring it up tomorrow (if I pay...). I will make sure that both parties pay it otherwise it would be only my fault, right?

Basically this whole thing boils down to: Can he really sue me?

Yes: Then pay him 10k. He asked for 12 but I think he will be happy with 10.

No: Give him a few thousand, maybe 3k. I do feel a bit sorry for him as he is old and so on.

Insurance unfortunately did not cover repairs of our vehicles, only hospital bills. I'll make sure to upgrade it now.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Baannok

[MikeyIdea]

Thanks for your replies. They called my gf and said they would accept her offer of 5000 + repair of samlor (7000), total 12000. I was a bit upset when I heard this as I think this is too much. However, she is tired of dealing with this (so am I really) and a few other Thai people I've talked to say I should just pay it to get this over with (as this is Thai culture and you are the farang, haha).

I'd like to do what MikeyIdea suggests, pay him 5000 and 1000 for the repairs, if they don't take it, go to court. However, I'm not rich and I would hate to end up spending tens of thousands on lawyers and court fees if they really manage to take it to court. I also get a feeling the police will get a slice of the 12000. He made it clear, like MikeyIdea said, that the judge will most likely sympathize with the samlor driver as he was hurt more and he is poorer than me. The Thais (on my side) I've spoken to said the police will back the samlor driver as he is poorer than me, not because I was at fault.

Anyway, I have NOT signed anything yet of course. My gf says she will go and pay 10000 tomorrow if I agree. So I'm posting this to see what you guys will reply with tonight.

Edit:

The police did not mention any 400 baht fine. Perhaps he will bring it up tomorrow (if I pay...). I will make sure that both parties pay it otherwise it would be only my fault, right?

Basically this whole thing boils down to: Can he really sue me?

Yes: Then pay him 10k. He asked for 12 but I think he will be happy with 10.

No: Give him a few thousand, maybe 3k. I do feel a bit sorry for him as he is old and so on.

Insurance unfortunately did not cover repairs of our vehicles, only hospital bills. I'll make sure to upgrade it now.

OK, One last comment before I go home. I think 10,000 bath is too much, I like 5,000 plus a thousand for the bike, make it 2,000 bath for peace of mind but that is absolute maximum. 7,000 is actually way too much too. Just for peace of mind. And dont'forget to thank your wife for her help when it's over

And a few more comments

Your Thai friends are right about who the police will back, note that your friends do not know the law though but that the police does. The police will hardly dare to lie in court, he can lose his job for that. And I think the police will be sensible enough to advice the samlor driver that he will not get more in court than what you offer anyway. If the police push you, tell him that you will report in court that the police admit that the samlor driver had shared responsibility for the accident, invite the police to lie in court if he dares to... He knows what the consequenses can be. That should put him on the defensive. In fact, the police doesn't want to go to court at all, especially not to lie...

Also remember that if you walk out and the samlor driver wants to take it to court, then the policeman will want to persuade the samlor driver not to go to court. It goes both ways

Don't mention the 400 bath at all, it's not mandatory for the police to give it. As both are at fault, I bet they will not issue anything to anyone

- Basically this whole thing boils down to: Can he really sue me?

Yes: Then pay him 10k. He asked for 12 but I think he will be happy with 10.

No: Give him a few thousand, maybe 3k. I do feel a bit sorry for him as he is old and so on.

It is his right to sue if he wants to, but legally he has almost NOTHING to stand on. Insurance has done their duty, not able to work etc is not covered (but could pay a bit anyway), the police admits that this is shared responsibility (support will out of humanity still be with the samlor driver but not that much). Legally (almost) the only thing that the samlor driver can sue for is the repair of the bike as it wasn't covered by your insurance. And the court knows that 7,000 bath is a ripp off and they will hardly award that much

I like this better: Yes: Then pay him 7k. He asked for 12 but 7 will cover what he claims the bike will cost to fix and he is on shaky ground to get money for other things in court. He will accept or be persuaded to accept

You're better off if you go alone without the wife if you decide to go for what I recommend. You will see that the police/samlor man will look at the wife for support when threatening with court etc. You now know more than what she does about Thai law applicable to this case (not blaming, that's very normal)

Nothing is ever 100% certain when it comes to cases like this but I give it a 99% that what I write is right

Good Luck

Edited November 18, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[Baannok]

Thanks. If I was wealthy I'd refuse to pay anything (except the fine) and see how far this goes, just for fun. However, as I'm on a terrible Thai salary, I really don't want to risk getting in more trouble. As much as I'd like to give them 2 or 3k, I'll never forgive myself if it backfires and I end up paying tens of thousands later on in legal fees just because of 10k. It's painful to lose money like this but it's not the end of the world.

I do believe that what you, MikeyIdea, write should be correct but without someone like a lawyer going with me it's hard to argue against them.

[rics21]

true

[rics21]

hey, just met up with a friend who happens to be a police captain , an advise from him; from his experience, he have never seen such a case before that a samlor sue a farang in an accident where both is wrong. so what u should do is to stay put, offer whatever u think is reasonable and wait for him to accept. if he wants to sue u, he will 1st need a lawyer(he wun have the money for 1), or wait for the police to apply for a court summon for u to court. he needs evidence and stuff like that, it is really troublesome to sue someone here.

[GarryP]

Decide on the figure you are prepared to pay. Say take or leave it, that is the final offer. See what happens. As Mikey said, it is highly unlikely the case would go to court and even if it did he can only be awareded actual provable damages. Punitive damages do not exist in cases such as this. If I recall correctly, too lazy to go back through the thread, his hospital care has already been covered so there is nothing to be gained on that. That leaves actual invoiceable damages to the samlor and provable loss of income. How long was he off work? At an average daily income of say 100 Baht.

Do not let yourself get bullied into doing something you know is unfair to you.

[katabeachbum]

If you have already accepted and payed an official fine to the police, they can not start a criminal case against you. The the samlor needs to start a sivil case against you, which costs money and is unlikely

[Baannok]

If you have already accepted and payed an official fine to the police, they can not start a criminal case against you. The the samlor needs to start a sivil case against you, which costs money and is unlikely

Interesting, can anyone else confirm this? I have not yet signed or paid anything. I have asked for them to give us some time to get the money (more time for me to think about this).

[GarryP]

Confirmed. Once you pay the fine the criminal case is closed and cannot be reopened. You cannot be charged again for the same offence. I assume you have already paid a fine, in which case, as peviously mentioned, it is now a civil matter. You can thumb your nose at him (he will probably not understand though) and say, if you want anything from me sue me for it. Call his bluff. The case in court would take about an hour of your time, and any damages awarded to him would be minimal.

However, as you do feel a tinge sorry for the extortionist, do what I said in my previous post. Pick an amount you are happy with and stick with it, take it or leave it. That way you are happy, he is somewhat placated, your wife is relieved and you don't come over as a nasty heartless foreigner (even though he does not deserve anything). Win-win situation.

[Baannok]

No, as I said I have NOT signed or paid anything at all (except for insurance papers for the hospital bills).

So if paying the fine will close the case, that seems like a good option for me to do, no? I don't know if the policeman will let me do it though, as the more I think about it, he's on the samlor's side because he feels sorry for him and wants to help him squeeze money out of me. As I wrote above, he did not mention the fine at all during the meeting. It ended with "if you two can not agree on anything, I will get statements from the doctors on your injuries and you can take this further to court". I've since been told that this is won't really work in court by forum members here and Thais I've talked to.

[katabeachbum]

No, as I said I have NOT signed or paid anything at all (except for insurance papers for the hospital bills).

So if paying the fine will close the case, that seems like a good option for me to do, no? I don't know if the policeman will let me do it though, as the more I think about it, he's on the samlor's side because he feels sorry for him and wants to help him squeeze money out of me. As I wrote above, he did not mention the fine at all during the meeting. It ended with "if you two can not agree on anything, I will get statements from the doctors on your injuries and you can take this further to court". I've since been told that this is won't really work in court by forum members here and Thais I've talked to.

I would avoid the possibility of a criminal case, by admitting guilty and paying an official fine, as long as you are not pushed into an uncomfortable amount to be payed to "victim".

Done it myself, me against motocy rental mafia, I was definately not at fault and they had no witness while I had one, but after 5 hours in policestation accepted guilty in minor traffic offence 500 baht, as long as my insurance payed all claims from the other guys. Case closed, NCBonus lost.

[GarryP]

Is it possible that no crime has been committed? I think you will find that this is the case. You were both seen to be equally at fault so if he fines you, he has to fine the samlor rider too. Thus, rather than writing a ticket and fining you both, the policeman decided that no crime has taken place. It is a civil case. Often in petty civil matters such as this the police act as mediators so the case does not need to go to court. Unfortunately for the policeman it was not a quick paying open and shut case so now he finds himself in the position that if a civil complaint goes to court, he too must appear as a witness in the case.

Whatever you do, as no fine has been paid, do not offer to pay a fine as this would be an admission of guilt. It is up to the policeman to raise the issue of a fine. If he fines you, demand that the samlor rider be fined too as he too was in the wrong and stand your ground. The policeman does not want the hassle.

[katabeachbum]

Is it possible that no crime has been committed? I think you will find that this is the case. You were both seen to be equally at fault so if he fines you, he has to fine the samlor rider too. Thus, rather than writing a ticket and fining you both, the policeman decided that no crime has taken place. It is a civil case. Often in petty civil matters such as this the police act as mediators so the case does not need to go to court. Unfortunately for the policeman it was not a quick paying open and shut case so now he finds himself in the position that if a civil complaint goes to court, he too must appear as a witness in the case.

Whatever you do, as no fine has been paid, do not offer to pay a fine as this would be an admission of guilt. It is up to the policeman to raise the issue of a fine. If he fines you, demand that the samlor rider be fined too as he too was in the wrong and stand your ground. The policeman does not want the hassle.

even if it seems like no criminal act has taken place, a criminal case "reckless driving" can be opened. Bail to police. Later bail to prosecutor. Later bail to court. Then 2 years without your passport before case comes up.

If you are offered a fine with no strings, grab it

I believe max fine for traffic offenses still is 1.000 baht

The samlorguy will typically have been instructed by the police to find 2 witnesses. Then you loose a criminal case.

Edited November 19, 2010 by katabeachbum

[MikeyIdea]

Gary and katabeachbum are correct in what they write but I would not admit anything anyway - I would keep quiet about that and the police will most likely not bring it up either. There is no way the samlor man will open up a case. The police captain had never heard of it, the police will never dare to lie in court. Getting a poor old man more money than he deserves by not being a perfectly neutral policeman is one thing (note the understatement and my part acceptance of the humanity of it, sorry been here for too long maybe), lie in court and risk his job is nothing that a roi wien will do. Never. And then the only thing the samlor man has that is not already covered is damage on his trike, and the judge knows that 7,000 bath to repair it is a rip-off. Criminal law and no compensation for lawyers fees so criminal case is a loss for a poor old man, what he wants is a civil case so that he can get the judge to order you to pay his lawyer. If the samlor man get 2 witnesses then request the police to witness and confirm that they didn't exist until in court. The police will not come because the court will not order it but they will know that it is not true.

7,000 bath is OK, the police will recommend the samlor man to accept

Good Luck

Edited November 19, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[MoonRiverOasis]

Interesting thread, and some insightful posts on law etc, thanks to all.

But if you remove the law from equation (both were technically in the wrong anyway) and look at it all in simple terms, it would appear it's the OP that failed to notice the samlor changing lanes, and in turn hit the samlor - not a case where the samlor hit the OP's vehicle.

Sure the samlor may have cut across his path, but how many times has something similar happened to everyone driving in Thailand? The unwritten, but widely understood rule of the road is those in front have right of way, and in the case of pedal-powered samlor's we're all expected to offer them additional leeway and patience.

If it were me, I'd compensate the guy and offer him a respectful apology.

If I were to drive by rule of the law, I could quite easily have an accident every single kilometer I drive, that's technically someone else's fault. That doesn't make it right in this country however.

As the Thai saying goes, Share the road

Edited November 19, 2010 by MoonRiverOasis

[Badbanker]

hey, just met up with a friend who happens to be a police captain , an advise from him; from his experience, he have never seen such a case before that a samlor sue a farang in an accident where both is wrong. so what u should do is to stay put, offer whatever u think is reasonable and wait for him to accept. if he wants to sue u, he will 1st need a lawyer(he wun have the money for 1), or wait for the police to apply for a court summon for u to court. he needs evidence and stuff like that, it is really troublesome to sue someone here.

I agree with your Police Captain completely!    You should tell your girlfriend I will go to court!   My final offer is 5,000 baht and if he doesn't like that we can got to court.  You are already in the police station so no court summons is going to be issued and he WILL agree to your kind offer. 

Oh, tell your girlfriend that she should go and tell the guy and the police that it was her offer and her idea alone and you do not agree to pay the amount she mentioned.

BB

[MikeyIdea]

Interesting thread, and some insightful posts on law etc, thanks to all.

But if you remove the law from equation (both were technically in the wrong anyway) and look at it all in simple terms, it would appear it's the OP that failed to notice the samlor changing lanes, and in turn hit the samlor - not a case where the samlor hit the OP's vehicle.

Sure the samlor may have cut across his path, but how many times has something similar happened to everyone driving in Thailand? The unwritten, but widely understood rule of the road is those in front have right of way, and in the case of pedal-powered samlor's we're all expected to offer them additional leeway and patience.

If it were me, I'd compensate the guy and offer him a respectful apology.

If I were to drive by rule of the law, I could quite easily have an accident every single kilometer I drive, that's technically someone else's fault. That doesn't make it right in this country however.

As the Thai saying goes, Share the road

Who hits who is a valid point in Thailand and humanity clearly matters too. The police states that both are at fault, the samlor driver is however a bit less at fault. The court / criminal or civil court discussion is just blown out of proportion, it is not the Thai way to solve problems at all and is not going to happen. It must be fair, that is all. Had this been between 2 poor Thais then no money would have been paid or perhaps 1,000 bath or so. I can see a middle class Thai paying a couple of thousand bath and also 5,000 bath if he's a kind person, even if he knows that he strictly speaking doesn't have to. I like the humanity in Thailand

Personally I also have a tendency to feel sorry for people who never had a chance in life - if they deserve it. I think 12,0000 bath is a rip-off and not fair, 7,000 or 5,000 is a relatively small amount and fair I think. It's all up to respect and money. Demanding 12,000 and my respect goes down as does my compensation. I am not under any economical pressure right now so I would have paid 5,000 had I done the whole negotiation from the beginning to end, I am pretty sure the old samlor driver would have been OK with that and we would have parted with respect for each other. As the OPs situation is now, I'd have paid 7,000, not much for peace of mind

I really like this, there is no better ending to a post at TV

If I were to drive by rule of the law, I could quite easily have an accident every single kilometer I drive, that's technically someone else's fault. That doesn't make it right in this country however.

As the Thai saying goes, Share the road

[GarryP]

Who hits who is a valid point in Thailand and humanity clearly matters too. The police states that both are at fault, the samlor driver is however a bit less at fault. The court / criminal or civil court discussion is just blown out of proportion, it is not the Thai way to solve problems at all and is not going to happen. It must be fair, that is all. Had this been between 2 poor Thais then no money would have been paid or perhaps 1,000 bath or so. I can see a middle class Thai paying a couple of thousand bath and also 5,000 bath if he's a kind person, even if he knows that he strictly speaking doesn't have to. I like the humanity in Thailand

Agreed. It is just because you are a foreigner that he is asking so much. I also doubt that even a middle class Thai would go as high as Baht 5,000 unless there was a lot of damage which does not sound to be the case here. Any way, it is about time that the OP gave an update on this.

[teamfalang]

Like others have said admit no liability,ignore the old lady she cannot summon you for any reason ......

"About a month ago I was in a motorcycle accident. I hit a samlor (the three wheeled bicycle kind, not tuktuk) at night. I was in the right lane and he merged from the opposing lane. It was dark so I did not see him"

could it be he had no lights on his bike.......can you remember....maybe thats why you did not see him

.........was this samlor guy displaying lights like any road vehicle is required to by law......i think probably not ........case closed

might be worth going to see his bike and take some pictures .....for er estimating repair costs......or proving no lights are on it.

Edited November 23, 2010 by teamfalang

[MikeyIdea]

Like others have said admit no liability,ignore the old lady she cannot summon you for any reason ......

"About a month ago I was in a motorcycle accident. I hit a samlor (the three wheeled bicycle kind, not tuktuk) at night. I was in the right lane and he merged from the opposing lane. It was dark so I did not see him"

could it be he had no lights on his bike.......can you remember....maybe thats why you did not see him

.........was this samlor guy displaying lights like any road vehicle is required to by law......i think probably not ........case closed

might be worth going to see his bike and take some pictures .....for er estimating repair costs......or proving no lights are on it.

Correction: The samlor driver can take the case to court if he wants, no one can stop him if he pushes it. Question is just; Will he? No, he won't

[Sinblesser]

Any update...??