I Have Been Told That It'S Illegal For Foreigners To Farm In Thailand

[troysantos]

HIYA!

I have seen a list of occupations, I think it was 39 occupations, reserved for Thais. Farming was on that list. So how is it that so many foreigners are farming in Thailand? I am seriously considering heading over and doing it myself. First thing is, it seems, the legality of a foreigner farming in the kingdom. I lived in various parts of the country for seven years, and had some farming experience there so I'm not completely ignorant. Also, I really like Thailand and Thai people.

I want to have a pretty good idea of what I'd be getting into to help make the decision. I have a good idea of the crops I want to grow, how much land myself and a few others could do, and the part of the country I'm most interested in. Among the things I don't know are how much money I should expect to need (of course this depends on various things), the legal hoops and rings of fire that I'll need to navigate, and, well, I don't even know what else I don't know!

So, if anyone out there can give me some pointers and / or give me the hard truth, I'd appreciate it. Where can I look to learn more?

Thanks a ton,

Troy Santos.

[powderpuff]

Who will own the land?

Don't gamble more than you can afford to lose.

[IsaanAussie]

Troy,

Yes farming is a protected occupation under Thai law. However there is a loop hole, farm management is open to foreigners. Whilst there are a few expat farmers here that buy acceptance, most try to just fit in without causing any friction.

In terms of "hard truths" I offer three thoughts.

Firstly, the returns here are small reflecting labour cost not materials, it is not a get rich quick proposition. To maximise your return you should look at as much value adding as you can incorporate. When you consider capital requirements, have a long look at the operational cost of machinery against the cost of hiring man and machine for the job. For example, a small tractor may cost 400,000 baht to buy, but now only 200 baht to hire one to plough one rai.

Secondly, marketing the product. My experience is most farmers near me simply grow the same crops as their neighbours and sell them to the same seasonal passing buyers. Few have any contacts outside that loop or try to look further afield. Study the crops grown in your choosen location and the markets for them. Have a careful look at the "organisations" that control those markets, competition here is often not welcomed. There may be a large local market, but your ability to access it, may well be limited. Do not make the mistake that the foreign community will buy at higher rates, most that have been here a while including myself, enjoy the local prices and seldom purchase more than the occassional "treat".

Thirdly, I find most neighbouring Thai farmers are not well educated or worldly in their outlook. They have limited resources and are reluctant to experiment with something different. Part of this comes from the communal nature of life here which dictates a reluctance to be singled out or seen to make a mistake. The attitude I encountered was if they haven't done it before, it cannot be done. The impact of this for you will be that anything new you want to implement, you will have to demonstrate yourself. If it works and is cost effective there will be no shortage of followers, but don't waste your time looking for self starters. There are exceptions but they will usually be too busy to get involved.

Isaan Aussie

[Khonwan]

Hi Troy, and welcome to the forum.

Due diligence is a necessary process for any new venture. You post here is, of course, part of that but I suggest you spend some weeks to read through as many of the threads that have ever been posted on this forum. That is the only way you are going to get a proper understanding. With respect, too many of us have already spent hours answering similar questions to this so you will only get some in-depth responses here I’m sure and will miss out in greater diversity and depth. Due diligence does and should take time. Sorry but I cannot give you an answer in one page.

[tim armstrong]

Troy,

Yes farming is a protected occupation under Thai law. However there is a loop hole, farm management is open to foreigners. Whilst there are a few expat farmers here that buy acceptance, most try to just fit in without causing any friction.

In terms of "hard truths" I offer three thoughts.

Firstly, the returns here are small reflecting labour cost not materials, it is not a get rich quick proposition. To maximise your return you should look at as much value adding as you can incorporate. When you consider capital requirements, have a long look at the operational cost of machinery against the cost of hiring man and machine for the job. For example, a small tractor may cost 400,000 baht to buy, but now only 200 baht to hire one to plough one rai.

Secondly, marketing the product. My experience is most farmers near me simply grow the same crops as their neighbours and sell them to the same seasonal passing buyers. Few have any contacts outside that loop or try to look further afield. Study the crops grown in your choosen location and the markets for them. Have a careful look at the "organisations" that control those markets, competition here is often not welcomed. There may be a large local market, but your ability to access it, may well be limited. Do not make the mistake that the foreign community will buy at higher rates, most that have been here a while including myself, enjoy the local prices and seldom purchase more than the occassional "treat".

Thirdly, I find most neighbouring Thai farmers are not well educated or worldly in their outlook. They have limited resources and are reluctant to experiment with something different. Part of this comes from the communal nature of life here which dictates a reluctance to be singled out or seen to make a mistake. The attitude I encountered was if they haven't done it before, it cannot be done. The impact of this for you will be that anything new you want to implement, you will have to demonstrate yourself. If it works and is cost effective there will be no shortage of followers, but don't waste your time looking for self starters. There are exceptions but they will usually be too busy to get involved.

Isaan Aussie

Yes agree 100% with all that. The only additions I would make are:- As a foreigner, particularly a farlang, if you are successful, watch out for the jealousy thing -its rampant, mostly benign, but does result in you paying more, no matter how long you have been here.

I suppose Thai farmers are not that different to farmers in other countries- they are very conservative in attitude, and reluctant to change. But in thailand they are still quite 'clannish', and don't have much interest in marketing their products, which is where Oz farmers were 40yrs ago.

[RedBullHorn]

You'll earn respect when you hands-on your operation (sweat it out and getting your hands dirty) because it's kind of like knowing you are at the same level as them. Be humble and friendly to the local and keep your nose clean.

[troysantos]

I appreciate all your responses. I was going to just read through the archives of this forum. But I've looked from time to time over the past few years and don't remember ever seeing anything like my post. So I thought I'd ask the question and see what came up. Some good, useful tips and advice. Sure, the next step is to read the threads posted on this forum. But ... sorry ... that's not the only way to get a proper understanding. Being there and doing it ... now this is the way to get proper understanding.

Thanks a ton everyone.

[IsaanAussie]

I appreciate all your responses. I was going to just read through the archives of this forum. But I've looked from time to time over the past few years and don't remember ever seeing anything like my post. So I thought I'd ask the question and see what came up. Some good, useful tips and advice. Sure, the next step is to read the threads posted on this forum. But ... sorry ... that's not the only way to get a proper understanding. Being there and doing it ... now this is the way to get proper understanding.

Thanks a ton everyone.

Troy,

I agree that personal experience is the ultimate learning method. The man who never makes a mistake, does nothing.

But I stress that Khonwans comment on understanding is also correct, when you take it in context. He refers to the time and effort we, the ones here, doing it, are prepared to put in to help those planning their future. Many of the mistakes that are made here can be fatally expensive but can be avoided with an awareness (proper understanding) of the realities and implications others have faced. This forum is loaded with solid, experienced based advice and its for free.

I hope your planning leads you to successful implementation here amid the "illegal" farming community. Be assured that we will be here to support you as best we can.

Isaan Aussie

[Khonwan]

Thanks, IsaanAussie.

To the OP, if you note the context of my post you ought to be able to interpret that my words, “only way” refer to due diligence, not experience.

I was not fortunate to have this valuable resource, the forum and its archives, available to me when I started farming here with zero experience – that cost me well over a million baht in mistakes before my transition from wannabe farmer to successful farmer.

[IsaanAussie]

Thanks, IsaanAussie.

To the OP, if you note the context of my post you ought to be able to interpret that my words, "only way" refer to due diligence, not experience.

I was not fortunate to have this valuable resource, the forum and its archives, available to me when I started farming here with zero experience that cost me well over a million baht in mistakes before my transition from wannabe farmer to successful farmer.

Khonwan,

Glad to hear you got out of the learning curve so cheaply. In my case the figure is higher but I don't consider it a loss, maybe an expensive education, hopefully a cheap investment in future returns that are just starting to happen. What I do know is that I did benefit enormously from the advice of TV members enormously. I'm not trying to blow smoke up your fundamental orifice, but you and your advice on TV was an important part of that. So I very gratefully return the thanks.

Isaan Aussie

Edited December 9, 2010 by IsaanAussie

[somo]

I think one thing not mentioned so far is that most farang farmers are married to thais and

everything goes through the wife which legitimizes it in a fashion.

Arriving here on your own with the intention of buying some land and starting a farming business on your own will be very tricky.

In my case I don't live full time in the countryside but now have about 40 rai of cassava on the go which is not enough to live on so continue with a separate business in Bangkok. Over the next few years I will expand to about 100 rai which is enough and from now on the expansion will be self financing.

I invested a total of 600k over the last 2 1/2 years and will get that back when I harvest in the next few months. Will then reinvest in more land.

I think it is important that you build it up slowly so mistakes are not too expensive because for sure you will make some but they are how you learn.

This forum has been a godsend for me and for sure limited my mistakes considerably.

In short to get started you need a thai wife and about 500k Baht to spare and off you go

[IsaanAussie]

Somo,

A man with a plan, good for you. Seems like you have "wrestled" this one to the ground.

IA

[somo]

Somo,

A man with a plan, good for you. Seems like you have "wrestled" this one to the ground.

IA

In theory yes but plans do have a habit of not working out as you hope but think you need one anyway.

Might take a bit longer than estimated but will get there in the end - I hope!

[RedBullHorn]

Somo,

A man with a plan, good for you. Seems like you have "wrestled" this one to the ground.

IA

In theory yes but plans do have a habit of not working out as you hope but think you need one anyway.

Might take a bit longer than estimated but will get there in the end - I hope!

Agreed, my ponds of catfishes was way overdue because of the tight queue, it was 3 weeks late, i just kept feeding them while others were feeding on and off for fear their fishes would be too big for the market or budget restrain. When i cleared them out last week, i didn't get the 1.5 Baht profit per fish as expected...

... i got BETTER ! ...almost 2 Baht profit per fish while others made 1.3-1.5 Baht...

(1.973 Baht/fish X 100'000 fishes excluding 5'000 FOC after total variable costs) ... What a big fat season

PS: Of course, i knew i won't have a problem even if my fishes were 1 to 2 size bigger for the market because the cold season, big fishes sells...unlike Monsoon season when the market prefered smaller fishes.

Edited December 10, 2010 by RedBullHorn

[Khonwan]

IsaanAussie, I appreciate your comments. I’m happy to have been of some help – makes the time spent worthwhile.

[bina]

such nostalgia..)

makes me remember way back when , the farm forum was part of the issaan section, cause most farming seemed to happen in the issaan area... and back when i had this idea that me and hubby would return and farm goats.

well, here in almost 2011, we know it wont be goats except for fun, and actually it wont be farming cause we are still waiting for the dam_n chanote for the land for a small hut/house to be built, and the farm land is being steadily taken care of by the one sister in law with good solid brains (and a shithole drunken husband)...

so plans stay as plans... and as most farmers would say: if i knew then what i know now...

in mean while, we are managing to do kitchen farming only, for our most important food plant, the chili pepper, and struggling ot maintain the health of our three papayas who have to make it through one more jeruslame winter before they will be planted in the ground (now in buckets to be put inside a greenhouse type place for the winter)...

however, definiately this forum is amazingly iformative. i wish there were /was a way to gather all the hard core experience and information in to an ebooklet or something (the pertinent info) since 1/ the information is in english and basically, probably supplements or surpasses those little thai booklets from teh farming advisory offices, , 2/its info based on real life situations with the 'western' side prevalant but (FFT) fit for thailand farming strategies.

as everyone hre can agree about, farming is difficult in the best of times, but to farm in a different country with different climate, seasons, soil, rain and most of all -POEPLE that think work plan (or not plan)and hoe differntly, well.......thats the most difficult hoe to row....

there is about 4-6 yrs of experience in this forum, from when people here were just starting their farms: pigs, catfish, cassava, peppers, cows,goats, and goat cheese, milk cows-- and since then, several farm failures, major farm machine injuries, losses and gains - i find it all amazing. for new posters and readers, that is certainly a major plus, if they have the patience to flip through all the posts. randonchances dairy cow farm, and maizefarmer's major farm machinery injury,of course, spring to mind for obvious reasons. all things any farang farmer should read through. especially if they are lacking any hands on experience with any real farming previously.

hats off to all the farmers, wannabe farmers, gentlemen (and women) farmers, or should i say: farm advisors.

bina

israel

[slapout]

When I came to Thailand, visited the future wife's farming family, and then married my wife, she informed me that she had a business in CM which supported her and to a large degree her parents, as the farm would not. I watched and learned for a couple of years, got to be friends with the FIL and proposed buying more land with the idea it would be part my hobby place, and possibly a inheritance for the wife and future children.

Over a three year time we picked up some decent land at decent price (FIL found and haggled). We put a third of the land into fruit trees, drilled water wells to ensure dry season crops and went to three crop/year on the remainder.. (the old way was 2 crop) I would chuckle as the FIL conceded three crops could be raised but somehow seemed to do 2 crops , rented the land for the third and sold well water to neighboring farmers during the dry. It took several years for him to do the same with his property which was within sight of ours, including a well.

The land would support my wife and I, if we lived there but would not pay for the International school for the kids, nor our lifestyle in CM, so basically it is still a hobby farm. I guess the jury is still out as to it being successful to some, but the locals thought we were clever. I had a thought one time to enlarge the holdings and add beef cattle to the scenario just to confuse more people but alas I could not find a way to handle slaughtering/handling nor a decent market for the finished beef. A fish pond has produced decent results but little real return as it seemed to be the gathering place for a locals and their weekly fish bbq. I can appreciate many of the members on the farming forum and congratulate those who have made their holdings work If farmers were in it only for the money/status we would all go hungry.

[fruity]

such nostalgia..)

makes me remember way back when , the farm forum was part of the issaan section, cause most farming seemed to happen in the issaan area... and back when i had this idea that me and hubby would return and farm goats.

well, here in almost 2011, we know it wont be goats except for fun, and actually it wont be farming cause we are still waiting for the dam_n chanote for the land for a small hut/house to be built, and the farm land is being steadily taken care of by the one sister in law with good solid brains (and a shithole drunken husband)...

so plans stay as plans... and as most farmers would say: if i knew then what i know now...

in mean while, we are managing to do kitchen farming only, for our most important food plant, the chili pepper, and struggling ot maintain the health of our three papayas who have to make it through one more jeruslame winter before they will be planted in the ground (now in buckets to be put inside a greenhouse type place for the winter)...

however, definiately this forum is amazingly iformative. i wish there were /was a way to gather all the hard core experience and information in to an ebooklet or something (the pertinent info) since 1/ the information is in english and basically, probably supplements or surpasses those little thai booklets from teh farming advisory offices, , 2/its info based on real life situations with the 'western' side prevalant but (FFT) fit for thailand farming strategies.

as everyone hre can agree about, farming is difficult in the best of times, but to farm in a different country with different climate, seasons, soil, rain and most of all -POEPLE that think work plan (or not plan)and hoe differntly, well.......thats the most difficult hoe to row....

there is about 4-6 yrs of experience in this forum, from when people here were just starting their farms: pigs, catfish, cassava, peppers, cows,goats, and goat cheese, milk cows-- and since then, several farm failures, major farm machine injuries, losses and gains - i find it all amazing. for new posters and readers, that is certainly a major plus, if they have the patience to flip through all the posts. randonchances dairy cow farm, and maizefarmer's major farm machinery injury,of course, spring to mind for obvious reasons. all things any farang farmer should read through. especially if they are lacking any hands on experience with any real farming previously.

hats off to all the farmers, wannabe farmers, gentlemen (and women) farmers, or should i say: farm advisors.

bina

israel

Well said Bina & also well said Issan Aussie & Khonwan.................Wise words from those who have DONE as opposed to only 'talking' about it!

I wish you all well.

Fruity.

[IsaanAussie]

..........The land would support my wife and I, if we lived there but would not pay for the International school for the kids, nor our lifestyle in CM, so basically it is still a hobby farm. I guess the jury is still out as to it being successful to some, but the locals thought we were clever. I had a thought one time to enlarge the holdings and add beef cattle to the scenario just to confuse more people but alas I could not find a way to handle slaughtering/handling nor a decent market for the finished beef. A fish pond has produced decent results but little real return as it seemed to be the gathering place for a locals and their weekly fish bbq. I can appreciate many of the members on the farming forum and congratulate those who have made their holdings work If farmers were in it only for the money/status we would all go hungry.

Slapout,

I have highlighted this paragraph of your post as I believe it shows both experience and the careful approach needed here to succeed to whatever level your wish be that hobby or livelihood. I would advise everyone to read it carefully and understand it.

This member of the jury is of the opinion that your "hobby" farm is successful. From what you tell us it returns a living and a bit more. The fact it may not yield the funds for discretionary spending is not a gauge of success to me as you seem to have developed a good compromise between farm and city lifestyles.

I dream of the day when the cash flow stays positive for more than the few weeks around rice harvest once a year. Still that objective used to be somewhere over the horizon, luckily it has moved closer and is now just uncomfortably out of reach. As more of my planned activities come on stream the locals here are starting to see why the crazy farang built this or did that. They see a truckload of compost or a pig going off to a customer, and they are now starting to realise that money is not all farangs are capable to contributing, we can work hard too. They can also see there are markets out there if you are prepared to go find them.

" those who have "made" their holdings work" ......I think this is the key message for me. Making it work means personal involvement and hard work leading by example or doing it all yourself and having a never say die attitude. Whereas letting it work simply means relying on family or workers to do what we perceive should be done and in the way we would do it. To my mind this is unrealistic and a recipe for disaster. In my case, the family "big talking helpers" both turned from heros to zeros, something that I had not anticipated and has caused delays to most of my plans. I have seen this issue turn great ideas into money pit follies overnight, fine if you can afford the loss. I can't and won't let it stop me making it work.

Isaan Aussie

[RedBullHorn]

When i came here 13 years ago, everythings was planed and path out, build a house, build the farm so i could call this place home and be my own boss. Then i realised marrying my wife that cost me an arm was nothing compared to realise the duty involved... taking care of the parent, the brother, the aunts, the uncles, the cousins, almost the whole extended family and that cost me the legs. They all wanted money...to do this to do that, to build this to build that..."You foreigner, you rich, you must help"... Once my spare change ran out, held a meeting and made them understood " Be fair to me, i've a family too, i need to support mine(her aged parents and grands) and i need to support my own dad and mom too... Your family, your resposibility (that goes to the aunts, uncles and all outside my house)..."

I made a lot of money raising catfishes, the problem with the locals not believing this is most of them have small pond and doing small quantity like 5000 fishes, money is tight and 30'000 THB investment for a tiny returns of 5000 THB, is not satisfiable. They saw how i made it work, made the plot from SK1 to Chanote, mortgage it ( the grands and parents cried "we gonna loose the land, we gonna loose the land, the bank's gonna take them, you evil man !") , took the bank's money and invested on the farm. They also understood eventually what's the meaning of "volume counts", with skills, knowledge and hands-on experience, 700'000 THB investment can yield a returns of more than 200'000 THB. With careful planning and ideal eco-climate, that's more than 600'000 THB per annual.

Cleared the bank, the elders relief.

Then expension, i excavated more ponds and cleared out all the paddies in that plot of land, the elders cried again " No more land for paddies, what we gonna eat, die ! die !...You evil man !"

As Planned, bought out another plot beside just for paddies, elders are happy.

They admitted that they've poor vision and they not brave to risk that kind of money. It took some time for me to be accepted as a person whom they consider their kind after seeing me hands-on the operation, we can be very hard working and not just some witty foreigner with money. One time, the whole village was gossiping about me shouldering a 18 feet long tail pipe with the Honda engine mounted carrying it for a distance of 150 metres,

" You're good, you are very strong, it takes 2 man to carry but you did it alone" they praised, " No i'm not very strong, it's just endurance and mentally prepared, i can take hardship too"

They would probably faint if they've seen me carrying 2 kegs of draught beer side by side to the bar for my bartenders during my days in the entertainment line.

Edited December 15, 2010 by RedBullHorn

[joe84330]

wasn't expecting much when i clicked on the thread ( no offense op, but was expecting yea's and nay's rather than some excellent first hand accounts)

great reading material, very informative. certain things i read here just clicked automatically from my own personal experience.

[IsaanAussie]

wasn't expecting much when i clicked on the thread ( no offense op, but was expecting yea's and nay's rather than some excellent first hand accounts)

great reading material, very informative. certain things i read here just clicked automatically from my own personal experience.

OK Joe,

So how about sharing your common experiences?

IA

[joe84330]

but too busy to write a novel at the moment but i'm reading these threads whenever i can and will make an effort to contribute something worthwhile in the future.

[MoradGump]

Hello!!!

Thanks for share your experience in Thailand :jap:

I want to ask you about something: I work as sales representative ont the biggest European Markety of fruit/Vegetables (Paris Rungis) since 10 years.

I work with wholesale companies, supermarket chains and catering companies (Schools,administration,Industry...).

I sell on Spanish and Persian Gulf market too.

I want to sell exotic fruit from Thailand directly, fresh or processed, and i'want to relocate in the country for that.

Can you tell me something about exotic fruit production in Thailand, please?(Wholesale market in Bangkok, growing area, variety...).

Happy New Year 2001 for all

MC