Thousands Of Thai Red Shirts Gather In Bangkok

[Buchholz]

It was the same when Nick Nostitz kindly gave his time to post for a few days a while back: The forum's right wing extremists were palpably furious, led by Buchholz flailing away, trying desperately to discredit Nick any which way. Now Buchholz is on the march against another poster pushing sanity ahead of factionalism. My, my.

cut// You overly dramatic "palpably furious" and "flailing away" are reflective of your own self-perceived hysteria.

No, John, they are only reflective of your own fixations.

Nothing in my short post qualifies your hysterical terminology in reply to it. Your own fixation on personalizing content to individuals rather focusing on the content of the thread itself is worthy of concern. This insistence of yours to focus on posters and sidetrack/derail the discussion of information is nothing but distraction.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Buchholz

[Siam Simon]

It was the same when Nick Nostitz kindly gave his time to post for a few days a while back: The forum's right wing extremists were palpably furious, led by Buchholz flailing away, trying desperately to discredit Nick any which way. Now Buchholz is on the march against another poster pushing sanity ahead of factionalism. My, my.

cut// You overly dramatic "palpably furious" and "flailing away" are reflective of your own self-perceived hysteria.

No, John, they are only reflective of your own fixations.

Nothing in my short post qualifies your hysterical terminology in reply to it. Your own fixation on personalizing content to individuals rather focusing on the content of the thread itself is worthy of concern. This insistence of yours to focus on posters and sidetrack/derail the discussion of information is nothing but distraction.

All I'm doing, John, is highlighting the fact that you try to derail almost every thread about politics into a rabble-rousing anti-Thaksin rant-fest. Why? For what purpose? Nothing posted on here will change the course of events in Thai politics. You're a strange fish, for sure. And anyway, the discussions here are essentially about the posters, their views, their agenda: The posters and their personalities make the forum, same as on any other forum.

[Roamin47]

I am always surprised at the vitriol this subject arouses on both sides. Look, folks, we are all guests in this country. Their politics is their business. If you need to feel outraged about political inequity, I'm sure there is plenty in your own countries to go around.

[Valentine]

There is an interesting situation brewing here. The red shirts say they will protest on the 10th & 19th of every month to secure the release of the red shirt leaders. Does that mean they do not care about the other red shirt detainees? Well in actual fact it appears as if the government has trumped them on this as they are now helping to secure the release of all the red shirts who are only facing minor charges. Does this mean they will have to find another excuse to protest in future as it surely will be hard to justify protesting to secure the release of those charged with violence.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Valentine

[Siam Simon]

There is an interesting situation brewing here. The red shirts say they will protest on the 10th & 19th of every month to secure the release of the red shirt leaders. Does that mean they do not care about the other red shirt detainees? Well in actual fact it appears as if the government has trumped them on this as they are now helping to secure the release of all the red shirts who are only facing minor charges. Does this mean they will have to find another excuse to protest in future as it surely will be hard to justify protesting to secure the release of those charged with violence.

Abhisit has undoubtedly trumped everyone on the bail issues. He made this his personal baby. Read the recent Asia Times interview to get more on this. But the problems start and end with everyone else. As you've stated, the Red Shirts are politicising the detentions unnecessarily. Then we've had the Army side of things, with Col Sansern behaving like Mary Poppins, and all the summary convictions that are worrying human rights groups. At least someone is taking a conciliation lead on this.

[Emptyset]

It must be me, I still don't get it. May be I do and just don't like my conclusion? Probably just the lack of details in newsflashes.

- commemorate the 7th month anniversary of the unrest

- demanded the government to release the jailed red shirt leaders

- remembrance ceremony of the red shirt protestors killed inside Wat Pathum Wanaram Buddhist Temple during the unrest

- gather at the 10th and 19th day of every month until they obtain justice and truth over the death of protesters would be unveiled

- UDD would continue twice monthly rallies until justice is returned and its core leaders detained for terrorism-related charges are released

- protests on the 10th and the 19th of every month until their demands for justice are met

So now the questions:

- Any compassion for the non-red deaths ?

- What are the demands for justice ?

- Why always 'release our leaders' with so many common red-shirts having to rely on the government to help ?

- Any 'mea culpa' for being at least similarly guilty of 91 deaths like the government?

- Any 'mea culpa' for the 60+ grenade attacks by 'red sympathisers' ?

- Any 'real' program to help people to reach self-reliance, empowerment and improved circumstances ?

The conditions for terminating the monthly protests seem just as open ended as those made in March - May this year. Count on extra traffic jams at Ratchaprasong twice a month for a long time to come

Red shirts might be in denial, but it's not like the government isn't. Sansern still denies soldiers were responsible for even a single death. Has anyone from the government apologized? I don't think the inability to admit mistakes/wrongs is particular to red shirts, I think it's an aspect of Thai culture in general. However, even Arisman admitted they should've gone home after April 10th and Sombat did apologize to people & businesses affected when he spoke at Rajaprasong, we don't know what other leaders think since they're either jailed or in exile. The only one we hear from is Jatuporn, who, as we know, is a moron that we should expect nothing from. If only we could hear and see less from him and more from Sombat, we'd know reds are heading in the right direction:

"Nevertheless, Sombat, like other reds, has been accused of fighting for Thaksin Shinawatra. Sombat publicly declared, however, that his ideal red-shirt movement is one that has transcended the attachment to ousted prime minister.

�I think Thaksin�s time is up.

I think he had the red shirts to the end. Although not all reds have transcended Thaksin, if the movement continues for another four to five years, I think the whole movement will leave him behind.

�I think those who are very progressive no longer talk about Thaksin. Sure, there are a lot of reds who still think Thaksin is their inspiration. And since there�s nobody today, they think of Thaksin. But it has been four years [since he was ousted in a coup] and I think they can survive without Thaksin.�

http://asiancorrespo...-leader-sombat/

The inability to admit mistakes / wrongs may not be red-shirt only, but it simply doesn't help their cause. If they are seen as like the government, but only another color, why would we need them? Replace one group of elite by another? Only because they have a nicer color?

"even Arisman admitted they should've gone home after April 10th" first time I hear that. "Sombat did apologize to people & businesses affected when he spoke at Rajaprasong", was he involved in the March - May 'activities'?

Stop trying to be seemingly neutral. As you said before in this thread "Thaksin is still one of the main motivators for people to join". As long as that is the case with red-shirt leaders saying 'it's not about Thaksin' and 'we want him back' confusion remains, goals are dubious. Lots of people not convinced 'we want democracy', 'we want justice', 'we want our leaders freed'.

I cannot and will not speak for Thai people, but for me the red-shirts still have a long way to go. All the talk about red-shirts, UDD/DAAD, 24th of June, this/that fraction only emphasizes that the grass root red-shirts are still lost in the political arena and better distance themselves from any of the 'big mouths' and start afresh back home. Make kanman's accountable, make local politicians accountable. Grow up!

There's a recent interview with Arisman on a blog called "Siam Voices", where he says he wishes they'd gone home after April 10th, or something like that, but he's got no regrets. Which seems contradictory to me, but there you go. Complex fellow, eh? Complex or retarded, not sure which. Yeah, Sombat was there but not a leader, he was actually interviewed in The Nation criticizing the leadership in early May. He said the UDD was undemocratic and wasn't listening to the people in front of the stage.

I didn't claim to be neutral, I do sympathize with (some of) the red shirts but I'm at the same time skeptical of their ability to change things for the better & I'm not sure what the consequences will be. Also skeptical of many of their leaders, their actions so far and their intentions. But I don't see why I shouldn't defend some of them or some leaders because quite clearly some are better than others. How could I be trying a new tactic? I haven't posted on this board for about four years and I only made a couple of posts back then, none of them related to politics.

Anyway, your last paragraph sounds good, but how many social movements have been doing stuff like that for years and failing? Why did social movements trying to do exactly what you said above lose grassroots support very quickly during the TRT era? It's because national government can improve things very fast & people see tangible changes very quickly. I honestly think the most effective way to bring fourth change is a mass political movement operating at a national scale. But unless red shirts have a positive vision and don't just act reactively to things, then I doubt much will be achieved. As I said. They need to focus on wider ideological issues & link this to people's reality, not just keep going on about the evils of the amaat. Sombat's plan is to do exactly as you said, but on a national scale, all linked together in solidarity. OK, it's a far away dream, but Thailand needs more dreamers, imo.

[Pi Sek]

There's a recent interview with Arisman on a blog called "Siam Voices", where he says he wishes they'd gone home after April 10th, or something like that, but he's got no regrets. Which seems contradictory to me, but there you go. Complex fellow, eh? Complex or retarded, not sure which. Yeah, Sombat was there but not a leader, he was actually interviewed in The Nation criticizing the leadership in early May. He said the UDD was undemocratic and wasn't listening to the people in front of the stage.

I didn't claim to be neutral, I do sympathize with (some of) the red shirts but I'm at the same time skeptical of their ability to change things for the better & I'm not sure what the consequences will be. Also skeptical of many of their leaders, their actions so far and their intentions. But I don't see why I shouldn't defend some of them or some leaders because quite clearly some are better than others. How could I be trying a new tactic? I haven't posted on this board for about four years and I only made a couple of posts back then, none of them related to politics.

Anyway, your last paragraph sounds good, but how many social movements have been doing stuff like that for years and failing? Why did social movements trying to do exactly what you said above lose grassroots support very quickly during the TRT era? It's because national government can improve things very fast & people see tangible changes very quickly. I honestly think the most effective way to bring fourth change is a mass political movement operating at a national scale. But unless red shirts have a positive vision and don't just act reactively to things, then I doubt much will be achieved. As I said. They need to focus on wider ideological issues & link this to people's reality, not just keep going on about the evils of the amaat. Sombat's plan is to do exactly as you said, but on a national scale, all linked together in solidarity. OK, it's a far away dream, but Thailand needs more dreamers, imo.

Good post! I especially agree with "but Thailand needs more dreamers". Sombat and Abhisit both seem like they are. It may look a long way off, but a Democrat-PTP coalition is possible in theory. I notice particularly with the last week's news topics that both the PTP and the Dems are focussing on populist policies. I don't like this at all - populist policies are rarely that beneficial to any country, especially in the medium-to-long term, and usually stink of manipulation of the electorate - but it does show that all parties realise there is an urgent need to re-address the social structure and its implementation within the country. This has always been a Red Shirt idea that I have backed, but its a problem in most countries that's just one of those hard facts of life. When I was young, I used to complain "It's not fair" - my Mum always said "Life's not fair".

As has been mentioned many times, the factionalism within the Red Shirt movement (UDD, DAAD, Red Siam, 24th June group, etc etc) causes most of the ambiguity with regards to peoples' perception of the Red Shirts. The whole movement is split, to the point that more than half of the "leaders" do absolutely nothing to represent their supporters or their supporters' demands. It beggars belief that the grass-roots still speak up for the leaders.

Maybe you should 'appoint yourself' to a position within the UDD - they might win a few more hearts and minds.

[metisdead]

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