Why Sand Filters?

[AllanB]

Can anyone explain to me why one would choose to use a sand filter, as opposed to a cartridge filter. Having read a lot of stuff on the web, the only answer seems to be cost, that they are cheaper to instal and maintain. One the other hand there are very many disadvantages that I can see.

Well the initial cost may be slightly cheaper, but after you have added that spaghetti juction valve and the extra pipework to match, they are much more expensive. A cartridge filter will last a couple of years, if kept clean (which is easy) so ongoing costs aren't much of an issue either, especially if consider labour in the equation.

So please you gurus out there???

[spshop]

Cartridge filters did have there place in time but not these days. A sand is not the answer these days also . A Filter tank using a glass medium is the best way to go. G lass should last for alot longer than sand and you do use alot less water when backwashing. There are alot of other pionts why not to use Cartridge and even sand being the bacteria build up in your so called clean filter. Why would you want to buy a house for harmful bacteria. Google it.

[PoolDoctor]

If you;ve ever tried to properly clean a cartridge filter on an outdoor pool, you will know immediately why people choose sand filters. We service 200 pools daily, 98% of them are sand filters.

As noted though, there are some good filter media now available as an alternative to sand. Jury is still out though, whether this is just a passing fad; we are old-school pool people, and use good quality 0.4-0.6mm sand, works perfectly for many, many years and is very cheap. Chlorine in the water will destroy any bacteria in the filter also, do not worry about this.

Gil

[AllanB]

Just because most people use sand filters doesn't mean it is right, most people thought the earth was flat. So we live and learn.

The reason I ask this question is because.....

1. I had a pool built in France where they supplied a sand filter, it was a real pain, the water never really felt clean. and backwashing was a real chore too. I had to build a plantroom for all the gear, which would not have been necessary with a cartridge filter system.

2. I had a pool in Australia with a cartridge filter, washed it out every week, which took 2-5 minutes and in two years never changed it, water was always sparkling clean.

3. A friend of mine lives in Queensland, has twin cartridge filters and does the same as I used to, he says all his friends have cartridge filters and most think sand filters are a joke.

I think this is another myth designed to mystify the public and increase servicing costs. Rather like cam belts on cars, but the public are now wise and manufacturers are switching back to chains.

Someone please convince me otherwise with some facts.

PS. PD...What University do you go to to get a Phd in swimming pools?

[spshop]

I come from a swimming pool industry background and to me glass is the way to go, when talking bacteria cartridge filters and sand provide a place were bacteria can cling onto and bread but not in the case of glass media. When you clean a cartridge filter you most also degrease it even more so in this climate. Each to there own. BTW Glass media can and dose clean much better than sand and anyone with any knowledge in this field would know V.M.F {volumetric micro filtration )

[Valentine]

I feel glass filter media is the way forward but as I have only been installing it for a couple of years still cannot say this with authority but here is a new twist on glass media which seems to combine it with the properties of zeolite. http://www.afm.eu/ This company, I think they are Scottish, has been using & researching glass media for many years now.

[PoolPro]

THE FACTS:

• Sand filters are slightly more expensive than cartridge filters.
• Sand filters are easier to clean out (only requiring a flick of a level t backwash tem until they are clean in 2 minutes)
• Sand filters clean down to about 6 mircons
• Cartridge filter clean down to about 4 microns
• The human eye would never detect the difference between 4 & 6 microns
• Cartridge filters are more laborious to clean, and generally harder to clean
• The best way to fully clean a cartridge filter is to hose it down thouroughly then buy a second filter body, fill it with cleaning solution and immerse the filter element into it overnight, then replace it the next day. The solution takes out all the oils and sticky sediment whichth hose cannot get off
• A Cartridge filter element should last you about 3 years
• A sand filter's sand should last about 7 years
• It will be cheaper to change the sand after 7 years than to buy a replacement cartridge filter
• Most people who have had both systems will want sand on their 3rd pool
• I am a pool builder and I have a sand filter on my pool, due to ease of maintenance. I sell cartridge filters to my customers who do not have an easily accessible drain pipe to connect to.
• 40% of my old customers who have a cartridge filter will call back within 3 years asking for an upgrade to a sand filter
• 0% of my sand filter customers have ever called back to complain about it
• I have built about 2000 pools over the past 17 years

[katabeachbum]

THE FACTS:

• Sand filters are slightly more expensive than cartridge filters.
• Sand filters are easier to clean out (only requiring a flick of a level t backwash tem until they are clean in 2 minutes)
• Sand filters clean down to about 6 mircons
• Cartridge filter clean down to about 4 microns
• The human eye would never detect the difference between 4 & 6 microns
• Cartridge filters are more laborious to clean, and generally harder to clean
• The best way to fully clean a cartridge filter is to hose it down thouroughly then buy a second filter body, fill it with cleaning solution and immerse the filter element into it overnight, then replace it the next day. The solution takes out all the oils and sticky sediment whichth hose cannot get off
• A Cartridge filter element should last you about 3 years
• A sand filter's sand should last about 7 years
• It will be cheaper to change the sand after 7 years than to buy a replacement cartridge filter
• Most people who have had both systems will want sand on their 3rd pool
• I am a pool builder and I have a sand filter on my pool, due to ease of maintenance. I sell cartridge filters to my customers who do not have an easily accessible drain pipe to connect to.
• 40% of my old customers who have a cartridge filter will call back within 3 years asking for an upgrade to a sand filter
• 0% of my sand filter customers have ever called back to complain about it
• I have built about 2000 pools over the past 17 years

seconded

being the owner of both filtration systems for my pools, I def prefere the sand filter. So does my wallet.

Only disadvantage with sand filter is the space/room needed.

lifetime for cartdridge filter is 2-3 years only if you have 2 of them, and it is a mess to clean woth hose and even more mess to clean out grease and chemicals

[AllanB]

At last some real facts, but I am not 100% convinced about the cleaning times or costs. I remember spending a lot of time getting the backwash finished on some occasions and even then wasn't sure it was clean, the pump often seemed to be working hard, costing me money, I suspect. The cartridge cleaning seemed a lot quicker and you could see when it was clean too, making everything more efficient.

Then the pump room had to be cleaned, had all sorts of critters living in there, horrible job, cobwebs in my hair and about 2 hours every month or so, the cartridge filter and pump just had a lid over the plyth, swept off in 10 seconds.

[AllanB]

Just had a thought, how do you degrease the sand?

[PoolPro]

You dont need to degrease the sand. Its kind of like asking who cleans the sand at the beach. Sand has properties which mean it stays clean......well at least for about 7 years, then it should be replaced by opening the small valve at the bottom and flushing it all out. As far as knowing when the sand is clean after a backwash, you will know by looking through the sight glass. The water starts off dirty and then becomes clear once the backwash is complete. It couldnt be easier!

As far as the critters and cobwebs, they have nothing to do with sand filters and more to do with personal hygene...haha Neither sand or cartridge filters NEED to be housed. They are all designed to sit outdoors exposed if one wishes.

[AllanB]

Not so sure about that, it does soak up grease to some extent, but cartridge filters are easy to clean, I can't remember the name of the fluid we used. I often found the sightglass was clean and then returned to a bit dirty on "run" and had to be switch to backwash again. Never ever managed it in anything like 2 minutes, used to get the kids to do it in the end, but they made me clean the plantroom, as and when. Anyway maybe with practice, it is possible.

With regards the planroom, a plantroom isn't required with a small compact cartridge filter and pump arrangement, just a discrete plastic box cover. It is an additional piece of equipment required to house all the bulky and untidy equipment, associated with a sand filter system. But it appears you are suggesting all this stuff is left out in the open, making the garden look like a rubbish dump.

I know Thai people have untidy gardens, with washing machines and old bikes all over the place, but I cannot live like that.

I have seen a dozen or so pools so far here in Thailand, half of which I would not use at all and only one I can remember being really clean, so I am sure standards are different here. They also seem to empty their pools here quite often, another indication of poor water quality management. The reason I raised the question in the first place.

[PoolPro]

Not so sure about that, it does soak up grease to some extent, but cartridge filters are easy to clean, I can't remember the name of the fluid we used. I often found the sightglass was clean and then returned to a bit dirty on "run" and had to be switch to backwash again. Never ever managed it in anything like 2 minutes, used to get the kids to do it in the end, but they made me clean the plantroom, as and when. Anyway maybe with practice, it is possible.

With regards the planroom, a plantroom isn't required with a small compact cartridge filter and pump arrangement, just a discrete plastic box cover. It is an additional piece of equipment required to house all the bulky and untidy equipment, associated with a sand filter system. But it appears you are suggesting all this stuff is left out in the open, making the garden look like a rubbish dump.

I know Thai people have untidy gardens, with washing machines and old bikes all over the place, but I cannot live like that.

I have seen a dozen or so pools so far here in Thailand, half of which I would not use at all and only one I can remember being really clean, so I am sure standards are different here. They also seem to empty their pools here quite often, another indication of poor water quality management. The reason I raised the question in the first place.

I think you must of had a dud sand filter by the sounds of it. Believe me they clean in 2 minutes. I have installed thousands of them on my lifetime.

Problem with the cartridge filters is that they are small, so they require frequent cleaning - they can only hold a limited amount of dirt. Now you can buy large cartridge filters - as big as sand filters, and they require cleaning intervals of 6-12 months. Many cartridge filters are fiddly to put back together again after you have cleaned them. so they leak around o-rings air get air leaks. You wont get that with a sand filter as you are not pulling anything apart.

Any covers placed over equipment should also allow for ventilation (for the pool pump) so that it does not run too hot.

I build pools in Sydney Australia. I realise Thai people like to empty their pools. Its a stupid thing to do and unnecessary. Most thai's dont know too much about Ph or balancing it, and their pool are ususally acidic leading to acid attack to grout etc....I would not follow what they do......just keep your chemicals right and all will be well....dont forget an pool can pop out of the ground due to hydrostatic pressure once it is empty.

[AllanB]

I am quite happy to clean the filter every week, along with the pool and change the o rings once in a while, though silicon o rings last a long time, years.

I like the simplicity of a cartridge filter, it's plumbing and efficiency too, I would guess you get a lower pressure drop through it as well, saviing a lot of money on pump running costs.

Thai's don't fit hyrostatic valves on their concrete pools, they anchor them down with lots of long resistance piles, which requires a thick strong pool base too, that is why they so expensive here. 200 tonnes of concrete. That way they don't have to remember anything when they drain the pool every week.

The other reason for my question is that I have a very small garden here and want to maximise the pool size, so building a plantroom is out of the question. And as I have said before I don't want an ugly sand filter, pump and speghetti pipework sitting in my garden.

A simple vented box can be easily hidden.

Anyway thanks for your advice.

[katabeachbum]

A simple vented box can be easily hidden.

Anyway thanks for your advice.

and heard

a sand filter in a brick wall room, 1,5x1,5 meters, pump is quiet

cartridge and pump in a fiberglass box is really noisy.

I have them both in different properties

[rizla]

Do the sand filters break down the calcium deposits, i need something to stop all the white deposits after washing my car, i have installed an M5 and a M7 masterpure inline together and still get white on my washings...water supply from a pumped well.....thxs

What cost for a sand filter?, and is it not just for pollishing the water...?

[AllanB]

A simple vented box can be easily hidden.

Anyway thanks for your advice.

and heard

a sand filter in a brick wall room, 1,5x1,5 meters, pump is quiet

cartridge and pump in a fiberglass box is really noisy.

I have them both in different properties

Well since I dont have room for a brick plantroom it dont matter, but a very basic accoustic barrier would be pretty simple to add. My last pool cover had something like that inside and it was a distance from the house, the pool in France had a crude metal plantroom and that was not that noisey either. Besides it might drowned out the blo*dy dogs barking around here. Fibreglass is not a good sound insulator either, so would use something else.

With regards the calcuim problem you can buy a magnetic thing in the UK which has a limited effect.

[PoolPro]

To stop Calcium, you add CALSTOP once every 6 months. We use that on Quarz pools in AUstralia. You'll never have high calcium again.

If you want to insulate your pool box, just line it with foam - the soft type used in packaging. Cheap and easy.

Sand Filters cost about AU$700 and they are not for polishing water, they are for cleaning

I'm amazed Thai's build pools by anchoring them and use so much concrete in the process. I should start building pools there and replace all that concrete with a $25 hydrostatic valve. Of course I would spray my pools with shotcrete, not build them the prehistoric way of base slab then block walls etc..........Thailand really does live in the past. I would be the cheapest builder in the country! haha

[rizla]

To stop Calcium, you add CALSTOP once every 6 months. We use that on Quarz pools in AUstralia. You'll never have high calcium again.

If you want to insulate your pool box, just line it with foam - the soft type used in packaging. Cheap and easy.

Sand Filters cost about AU$700 and they are not for polishing water, they are for cleaning

I'm amazed Thai's build pools by anchoring them and use so much concrete in the process. I should start building pools there and replace all that concrete with a $25 hydrostatic valve. Of course I would spray my pools with shotcrete, not build them the prehistoric way of base slab then block walls etc..........Thailand really does live in the past. I would be the cheapest builder in the country! haha

Where do you get CALSTOP in thailand and how can it be used only once every six months.....for a home water supply?

[AllanB]

To stop Calcium, you add CALSTOP once every 6 months. We use that on Quarz pools in AUstralia. You'll never have high calcium again.

If you want to insulate your pool box, just line it with foam - the soft type used in packaging. Cheap and easy.

Sand Filters cost about AU$700 and they are not for polishing water, they are for cleaning

I'm amazed Thai's build pools by anchoring them and use so much concrete in the process. I should start building pools there and replace all that concrete with a $25 hydrostatic valve. Of course I would spray my pools with shotcrete, not build them the prehistoric way of base slab then block walls etc..........Thailand really does live in the past. I would be the cheapest builder in the country! haha

May be interested in a deal, please PM

Edited January 24, 2011 by katabeachbum
removed email as per forum rules

[PoolPro]

Calstop isfor pools only and not for home drinking water!!

To stop Calcium, you add CALSTOP once every 6 months. We use that on Quarz pools in AUstralia. You'll never have high calcium again.

If you want to insulate your pool box, just line it with foam - the soft type used in packaging. Cheap and easy.

Sand Filters cost about AU$700 and they are not for polishing water, they are for cleaning

I'm amazed Thai's build pools by anchoring them and use so much concrete in the process. I should start building pools there and replace all that concrete with a $25 hydrostatic valve. Of course I would spray my pools with shotcrete, not build them the prehistoric way of base slab then block walls etc..........Thailand really does live in the past. I would be the cheapest builder in the country! haha

Where do you get CALSTOP in thailand and how can it be used only once every six months.....for a home water supply?

[rizla]

Calstop isfor pools only and not for home drinking water!!

To stop Calcium, you add CALSTOP once every 6 months. We use that on Quarz pools in AUstralia. You'll never have high calcium again.

If you want to insulate your pool box, just line it with foam - the soft type used in packaging. Cheap and easy.

Sand Filters cost about AU$700 and they are not for polishing water, they are for cleaning

I'm amazed Thai's build pools by anchoring them and use so much concrete in the process. I should start building pools there and replace all that concrete with a $25 hydrostatic valve. Of course I would spray my pools with shotcrete, not build them the prehistoric way of base slab then block walls etc..........Thailand really does live in the past. I would be the cheapest builder in the country! haha

Where do you get CALSTOP in thailand and how can it be used only once every six months.....for a home water supply?

Right,

so you dont have any info on where to buy it here?

If you look at my posts it clearly states that i want something to remove calcium deposits left on my washings....nothing mentioned about drinking water (i wouldn`t be as stupid to drink from anyones tap here)...!!!!!

Oh, and i used a sand filter in my koi pond for pollishing the water after it went thru my Nexus Filtration system.....

[Naam]

I'm amazed Thai's build pools by anchoring them and use so much concrete in the process. I should start building pools there and replace all that concrete with a $25 hydrostatic valve. Of course I would spray my pools with shotcrete, not build them the prehistoric way of base slab then block walls etc..........Thailand really does live in the past. I would be the cheapest builder in the country! haha

you shouldn't believe all technical fairy tales (such as 200 tons of concrete) which are mentioned in this forum. as far as optimal filtration is concerned, nothing beats a combination of a sand/glass mainfilter with a bypass to a diatomite filter and a cartridge filter.

and of course one does not need a pumphouse. just clutter your equipment, exposed to rain and sun, next to your greenhouse where you grow precious orchids or have everything neatly arranged in your airconditioned workshop/techroom like i did :jap:

[AllanB]

The 200 tons of concrete was an exaggeration to emphasize a point, I think people understood that, but Thai pools are still a gross overkill. As for having all that junk in my garden, or buzzing away in my house, no thanks.

I really like living in Thailand and it's people, but it amazes me how many people build a big expensive house in a shanty town, or buy an expensive house and then turn it into a rubbish dump.:jap:

Or why they use 199 tons of concrete when a 1000baht valve will do the same job.

[PoolPro]

Calstop isfor pools only and not for home drinking water!!

To stop Calcium, you add CALSTOP once every 6 months. We use that on Quarz pools in AUstralia. You'll never have high calcium again.

If you want to insulate your pool box, just line it with foam - the soft type used in packaging. Cheap and easy.

Sand Filters cost about AU$700 and they are not for polishing water, they are for cleaning

I'm amazed Thai's build pools by anchoring them and use so much concrete in the process. I should start building pools there and replace all that concrete with a $25 hydrostatic valve. Of course I would spray my pools with shotcrete, not build them the prehistoric way of base slab then block walls etc..........Thailand really does live in the past. I would be the cheapest builder in the country! haha

Where do you get CALSTOP in thailand and how can it be used only once every six months.....for a home water supply?

Right,

so you dont have any info on where to buy it here?

If you look at my posts it clearly states that i want something to remove calcium deposits left on my washings....nothing mentioned about drinking water (i wouldn`t be as stupid to drink from anyones tap here)...!!!!!

Oh, and i used a sand filter in my koi pond for pollishing the water after it went thru my Nexus Filtration system.....

No idea where to buy it in Thailand. Maybe I could ship it over to you.

[AllanB]

What exactly do you want this water softener for, your domestic water supply?

[hanspi46]

Have a look at this link http://www.behncke.c...ermaterial.html , is a actvated glass filtermaterial for sandfilters.

Try a flock with a cartridgefilter....

For me a AFM-Sandfilter is the best because easy to backwash after dayly vaccum the pool.

Greets hanspi

Edited March 1, 2011 by hanspi46

[fdimike]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned a DE (Diatamaceous Earth) filter as it can filter and polish the water much better than sand, glass or cartridge. Maintenance is a snap by backwashing. There is no need to disassemble (despite what the locals will tell you) the filter to clean it. Backwashing (cleaning) is accomplished by simply moving the valve control lever to the "backwash" position and turn on the pump. Once you finish backwashing (about 5-10 minutes) you add the required amount of DE powder through the skimmer box or one of your return lines. Assuming you have the correct size filter(s) backwashing is done about 2-3 times a year. For reference purposes I am operating 2 Hayward DE filters on a large (approx 175,000L) saltwater pool.