How I Started To Learn Thai

[vanbobble]

Hi all.. i am kind of new here but i thought i would share a couple of tips of how i began to learn to speak thai..

Firstly i think everybody has a different method of learning things but here's what worked for me, please note that this doesnt envolve reading thai script which still puzzles me..

Firstly i looked on the internet for a decent course and settled on Learn Thai Podcast which has a years worth of instruction lessons on adjectives/verbs, grammar lessons and review lesson. Its not the cheapest but the site is well layed out and i prefer their romanized translations than others (ie: sa-wat-dii as opposed to sawasdee) they also teach you to read and write thai but i have not got onto that yet.

The lessons are available in a number of formats.. to watch from the site, download, download to iphone and pdf's for example.

The grammar lessons are great, incorporating a number of new words into mostly everyday sentences..

however what really worked for me was a free program called cue card (i think available from download.com) which enables you to copy and paste romanized translations and english words into a kind of spreasdsheet and then learn as cue cards.. you can even swap questions and answers (if you follow what i mean) and also it has 3 styles of teaching you to learn..

It enabled me to learn 10-15 adjectives/verbs in 20-30 mins just by using repetition but they actually stay in your head.. i now have a number of spreadsheets and if i havent been studying for a while just go through them to refresh everything!!

Hope this helps someone

Rob

[bifftastic]

Hi Rob, I'd like to try that 'cue card' thing you mentioned

Where did you get it from again? You say it enables you to use spreadsheets, I'm guessing I'd need Excel for that, something I don't have unfortunately

[krading]

Learn to read Thai.

Why bother with learning with transliteration alone. Transliteration helps at first but it has too many limitations.

It seems almost every dictionary you use has a different system of phonetics that you have to learn also. Why learn multiple systems for the one language?

I learnt the groups of thai consonants starting with the high class, then the mid class. The rest have to be low class, easy way to remember them.

Same with tone rules.

I found a simple chart explaining the tone rules and now it's imprinted in my brain. When I come across a word I don't recognise I picture this chart in my mind and most times I can get the tone right.

Some words are bloody impossible but you won't need them for a while yet. You can memorise them when you are a bit more advanced.

Like Arnold says, "C'mon, you can do it."

[bifftastic]

I agree with K. Krading, get away from the transliterations asap!

Wouldn't mind a copy of that tone rules chart if you can put your hand on it

Edited April 6, 2011 by bifftastic

[Tod Daniels]

Learn to read Thai.

I agree, get away from the transliterations asap!

I must agree with the previous posters;

The faster you can get away from karaoke Thai (thai written in engrish), the faster you'll get the hang of the language. I'm far from the sharpest knife in the drawer but I was able to teach myself to read Thai. If I can, anyone can . ..

Same with tone rules.

I found a simple chart explaining the tone rules and now it's imprinted in my brain. When I come across a word I don't recognise I picture this chart in my mind and most times I can get the tone right.

I'd ALSO like a copy of the tone chart "Krading" mentions (perhaps they'd be kind enough to post it ) as I never ever learned the consonant class or tone rules.

I learned to read Thai words solely by memorization and recognizing by sight a specific set of consonants, vowels & tone marks equals a particular word and to a lesser extent via context in a sentence. The ONLY tones I'm sure on are high-frequency words with either the falling or rising tones. The others I tend to 'blur' together when speaking Thai.

For some reason, even though I've tried several times; the tone rules just don't 'stick' in my head. It didn’t help that I learned the Thai consonants by the sound the letter makes; "K's", "T's", "S's", "F's", "P's", etc, instead of the correct way, by consonant class.

Be that as it may, I can read & understand most things I have an interest in. I'd imagine learning the correct way would certainly help clear up my whacky toned spoken Thai 555+. Still, I find the Thais I speak to more than able to understand me; once they wrap their head around my foreign accented and poorly toned Thai.

I applaud the O/P in their effort to learn Thai, but I still think the faster they can get away from reading Thai via “karaoke” the faster they'll learn Thai.

Good Luck , hang in there, don’t get discouraged !!

[RickBradford]

I've just finished reading an interesting book on language learning written by a German academic, who strongly argues for the following priorities in language learning

1. Vocabulary: We know perhaps 50,000 words of our native languages and he suggests we try to learn at least 5,000 and preferably 15.000 words of any other language we want to be comfortable in. He reckons we can learn 10 words per hour.

2. Listening: In daily life, we listen more than we speak, so understanding what is said is the crucial skill.

3 Reading

4. Speaking

The book is free as a PDF and can be found on his website www.thewordbrain.com

[kikenyoy]

Thank Rick...I really enjoyed that.

[krading]

"He reckons we can learn 10 words per hour."

What is he, a 5 year old with that lovely sponge like brain?

I think that that particular learning opportunity has long passed by most of us here.

Anyway, I'm heading back to Oz in a couple of weeks and I will try to post that tone chart. It's taped into the front page of my old Mary Hass dictionary at the moment.

[krading]

I've hunted the net and can't seem to find the exact same chart I used and although I can picture it in my head putting it into a postable format is beyond my computer skills at the moment.

The below link will lead to one that is similar in format, you will have to learn the consonant class and the difference between a live syllable and a dead one.

Not that hard.

As I said earlier, learn to recognise the high class and the mid class ones and then all the rest are low class. (But we still love them)

Dead syllables have D T or G ending sound. The rest are live.

How hard can it be?

Works for me anyway, good luck.

http://blog.joshsager.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/completeToneRules.jpg

I hope Josh doesn't mind me borrowing his work.

[vanbobble]

Hi all.. here is the link

http://download.cnet.com/CueCard/3000-2051_4-10075304.html

you dont need excel but could import spreadsheet files for learning anything if you can find them..

I agree i need to get away from transliteration asap.. however for most people just visiting thailand that really want to try and speak some thai i think this is a good way..

Also learn thai podcast really does teach you well.. it tends to overexplain some grammar usage which i dont think hurts either if you are the type of person that likes to understand stuff well

[bifftastic]

Thanks for the links guys

I nicked the free lessons from Learn Thai Podcast (being the cheap charlie that I am!) and I thought they were very good. Sometimes I found they way the sentences were explained was a little...over-laboured? But generally speaking I liked it and found it useful.

I agree with vanbobble about the transliteration, in that it gets you started. But it's hard to get away from it. I find that if a learning method I'm using has it, then it draws my eye away from the Thai script. I guess that's understandable, as it is used in my native language, and my brain is used to these letters so when I see them, they just speak to my mind.

I do think it's worth the initial effort to use Thai script though. I'm finding now that I can 'see' words in Thai and don't need to spend time working out what it says. I wish I'd done it earlier.

[JRinPDX]

Thanks for the links guys

I nicked the free lessons from Learn Thai Podcast (being the cheap charlie that I am!) and I thought they were very good. Sometimes I found they way the sentences were explained was a little...over-laboured? But generally speaking I liked it and found it useful.

I agree with vanbobble about the transliteration, in that it gets you started. But it's hard to get away from it. I find that if a learning method I'm using has it, then it draws my eye away from the Thai script. I guess that's understandable, as it is used in my native language, and my brain is used to these letters so when I see them, they just speak to my mind.

I do think it's worth the initial effort to use Thai script though. I'm finding now that I can 'see' words in Thai and don't need to spend time working out what it says. I wish I'd done it earlier.

I tried Rosetta Stone and found it too random; ended up with Learn Thai Podcast and love it. But the best approach: I found a local Thai university student as a personal tutor. It's great because I'm learning a lot about the culture at the same time.

[luteplayer1981]

Re: Post #6 Rick Bradford

Your German academic is very close to as accurate as one can be about the most effective methods to learn vocabulary in an L2, especially early on in the process. There are in fact plenty of studies (cf. Webb 2009, Prince 1996, Nation 1990, 2001,Schmitt 2000,etc.)which corroborate the point that learning the basic vocabulary of any non-first language is most transparently effected through L1-L2 lists, decontextualized and with minimal semantic grouping, i.e. no synonyms, hyponyms, antonyms or other associated words. It appears that too much information overwhelms the cognitive capacities of learners and so simple translation equivalents in the L1 are the easiest and the quickest way to learn.

That doesn't mean that L1 translation is all one needs to learn to be able to use the vocabulary in real idiomatic, fully contextualized and discourse appropriate real time language. So when one learns a translation equivalent it is useful to add some form of phonetic realisation that the learner can interpret for accurate pronunciation and later , when the learner can produce the words consistently, then perhaps they can be put into a syntactic frame and other idiomatic expressions or meanings using the item could be added. These other aspects of the vocabulary information could be learned in concurrent, parallel learning phases so as to maximize productive capability in the shortest time for the learner but this assumes a motivated and skilled learner.

The usefulness of listening is also true in an immersion context. The listener/learner must of course be focused and inquiring so as to notice how native speakers use the language. Ideally, the learner will keep a notebook of these observations for later reference.

Unfortunately, the truth is for learners of a second language who are older than about 7 -9, the post-critical period, language learning mechanisms simply are not of the same type as those used by native L1 learners in natural settings. Again, there is plenty of research( DeKeyser 2000, Johnson and NewPort 1989 ) that verifies this 'Fundamental Difference' (Bley-Vroman) in the language learning capabilities and the methods that post-critical period learners must make use of.

So, the bottom line is, learn as much of the vocabulary through translation equivalents to maximise speed of vocabulary acquisition in the L2.

[RickBradford]

Another point made by the academic is that we should not look too wistfully at the learning capacities of children -- the 'sponge' effect.

Certainly, adults learning L2 cannot recreate the extreme motivation of a child seeking to connect with the outside world through acquiring L1.

But equally, children cannot put in 2 hours a day focused learning, nor do they have the context in which to put their learning and create structures out of what they are hearing.

[NBD]

I reckon I learn quicker than children. I speak Thai way better than any 2 year old I have ever met. I also think that being able to relate, compare and think about things gives me a better chance of remembering them, and I am highly motivated to learn, in a way which I don't think I would have been able to sustain during childhood.

I know it's a very common excuse that "I'm too old to learn a new language" but I don't really believe it gets any harder in adulthood, if you put your mind to it.

I'm 32 now, so maybe I will tell a different story in 20 years time, but I have heard people younger than me use the same excuse.

[exbelg]

repetition is the master of succes ?

found this free website :

http://www.learn-thai.portalsbay.com/

but it is only to learn words, not sentences

[Parvis]

"Does it take adults much longer than children to learn

new languages? The answer is: No. The ease with which

children learn languages is an illusion. If 18-year old young

adults know 30,000 to 50,000 words, where did they get them

from?"

"If we, adults, add time to our languagelearning

recipe, children immediately lose their head start.

Adults possess vast brain webs of meanings, fact, and events.

What's more, we are capable of focused working for 4, 6, or 8

hours a day and are terrifyingly effective when we do so. In

comparison, young children stand no chance of competing. In

other words: start a four-year language training course today,

and in four years, I expect you to have language skills that are

clearly superior to those of a 6-year-old child"

Excerpts from "The WordBrain".

Edited April 10, 2011 by Parvis

[Anyse]

There is an excellent flash card system that is free and also allows one to use either transliterated, Thai script, or both! It can be found at www.ankisrs.net. There are also a lot of decks that others have made (440+) that one can also import into the system as well. While that Anki system is free for PC's and Macintosh (oh, Unbutu and other Unix systems are also supported); however, the iPhone version is $29 from the App Store. When considering the cost of BYKI (Before You Know It) system from Transparent Languages at $69 plus s/h, it is not a bad deal overall. I hope that this will help some of you as well. Take care.

[bifftastic]

I reckon I learn quicker than children. I speak Thai way better than any 2 year old I have ever met. I also think that being able to relate, compare and think about things gives me a better chance of remembering them, and I am highly motivated to learn, in a way which I don't think I would have been able to sustain during childhood.

I know it's a very common excuse that "I'm too old to learn a new language" but I don't really believe it gets any harder in adulthood, if you put your mind to it.

I'm 32 now, so maybe I will tell a different story in 20 years time, but I have heard people younger than me use the same excuse.

I'm 48 next month and I agree with you. I think it's an excuse to say "I'm too old to learn a language now" It maybe true that it would take some adjustment, but only to get the 'learning habit' back, if there is such a thing.

I think, with language, if you're actually interested ie. you like language itself, including your first language, the motivation to become literate in another language would only increase when you find yourself in another country.

Thai may be quite daunting for some, but I think that's because it's from a completely different 'language family' than European languages, which have Latin and Greek as a common ancestry. That common language family gives a new learner all kinds of similarities that boost confidence.

I think if you persist and put the hours in (I'm guilty of not doing so, but still have the determination to succeed) you will be rewarded.

[Parvis]

I am possibly one of the oldest Thai learners here. I am over 65 - and have studied Thai "on and off" for approx. 3 years. I look at learning another language more as optimizing "my computer". In other words - from the viewpoint of - the hardware we have and the software we can develop.

If some of you still believe "age alone" is a detriment to learning another language (or anything) - you are quoting so-called "expert linguists" who are WAY BEHIND TIME (22 years - 1989 - per a previous poster above). Please google "Neuro Science Development" and read the latest research in "brain cell regeneration etc. etc. etc." Interestingly enough much of this research started almost 30 years ago with "language acqisition of birds". Yes indeed "birdbrains". Many individuals to this day still believe that we are born with a certain amount of "brain cell mass" and it declines from then on - JUST TOTALLY FALSE INFORMATION.

So what is my Thai language progress at present:

1) I speak conversational Thai - but not fluently

2) I read Thai - albeit haltingly (which is my main hurdle for progress at present).

3) I cannot write in Thai - primarily because I am unable to spell correctly (but I can write Thai script).

My present Thai ability is almost entirely self-studied. I attended a private School - on a one on one basis 1.5 years ago for a short time. After complaining about the Teaching books (not the teaching system) I was told by the principal "you are too old to learn as easily as an individual 20 years younger". Needless to say this turned me off against private Schools in general - but I have visited one particular School advertising on TV (near Ploenchit) which I found very impressive. At present - if I were younger - I would attend a University course.

I feel - it is important to start learning Thai from the beginning on with Thai script only - no transliterations. Schools should teach Thai with usefull, high frequency vocabulary which we can use immediately in every day life.

The biggest problem with self-study I found to be motivation - for that reason I will very likely return to a private School to learn systematically to READ AND WRITE effectively.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Parvis

[Tod Daniels]

I agree with aged poster known as "Parvis"; the lynch-pin in self-study is totally keeping your motivation level up. It is a hard slog to keep oneself motivated while going over stuff again and again. This is compounded if what you’re studying doesn’t ‘click’ in your head the first time around . (This is my problem because my brain seems to be running with an old AMD Athlon processor and not near enough RAM )

That's why overall much better results are provided via the private Thai tutor or group lesson scenarios at schools. You're compelled (at least marginally ) to study for the requisite amount of time.

I also hafta agree with "Parvis" again, insofar as all too many schools don't teach high-value, useful vocab or phrases as much as they should.

I've seen students from well-known private Thai language schools attend for over a year's worth of classes. However, they couldn't even begin to tell a taxi "Stop in front of Emporium and let me out", "turn left at the next soi", or “if we take the expressway there won’t be traffic”, etc. Those are, for the most part, just “frozen phrases”; things you can and do use OVER and OVER again here, yet they are NOT taught in many schools I’ve toured.

Coincidentally enough regarding this conundrum ; AUA recently started a program called "Real-Life Bangkok".

You can check it out here;

AUA's Real-Life Bangkok Program

This program is easily the most innovative approach in teaching high-frequency, situational Thai I've seen in a long while. The time is split between in class study of useful vocab and time where a Thai teacher takes you around Bangkok and helps you USE the Thai in the real life situations where you're likely to come across it. As far as their price point goes; it’s not even as much as some Thai language schools are charging for private 1-on-1 lessons!! Plus the class size is limited to no more than 3 people, so you definitely get “bang-4-the-baht”. I’m thinking of taking the course after Songkran when AUA re-opens to gauge the efficacy of this teaching methodology.

Anyway, just thought you should know about it.

BTW: I'm NOT affiliated with AUA, and only offer out my opinions and observations. .

Edited April 11, 2011 by tod-daniels

[Puschl]

Dead syllables have D T or G ending sound. The rest are live.

Just to be precise, dead syllables are syllables ending in a P, T or K sound, or syllables ending in a short vowel. An easy rule: dead syllables end abruptly, while you could stretch the final sound of a live syllable as long as your breath allows.

For learning the consonant classes, I found the following two resources on thai-language.com extremely useful:

plains, sonorants and aspirates and Pali-style tabulation of Thai Consonants

From there on, together with the tone rules table, the hurdle becomes manageable.

What still causes me headaches are prefixes which sometimes do affect the tone of the following syllable, and sometimes don't.

Example:

ขจี (ขะ-จี) second syllable follows mid-class rule, no affect by high-class prefix

ขนม (ขะ-หฺนม) high-class tone rules apply for second (low-class initial) syllable

I bet there is some formal distinction between the two cases, but I don't see it. I vaguely believe to remember Rikker posting some rules on that issue, but if my memory serves me right they were beyond my grasp.

[DavidHouston]

As to your question regarding consonant clusters, Glenn Slayden has written the following as part of his larger essay on the subject:

With a sonorant second consonant, we observe tone carry-forward from first consonant:

สนุก /saL nookL/ - Second consonant of cluster is sonorant, so the Low tone of this syllable determined by high-class consonant ส

With non-sonorant second consonat, there is no tone carry-forward and the second consonant prevails:

แสดง /saL daaengM/ - Second consonant of cluster is non-sonorant (mid-class)

เกษียณ /gaL siianR/ - Second consonant of cluster is non-sonrant (high-class)

เฉพาะ /chaL phawH/ - Second consonant of cluster is non-sonorant (low-class)

[eric67]

What still causes me headaches are prefixes which sometimes do affect the tone of the following syllable, and sometimes don't.

Example:

ขจี (ขะ-จี) second syllable follows mid-class rule, no affect by high-class prefix

ขนม (ขะ-หฺนม) high-class tone rules apply for second (low-class initial) syllable

I bet there is some formal distinction between the two cases, but I don't see it. I vaguely believe to remember Rikker posting some rules on that issue, but if my memory serves me right they were beyond my grasp.

I think what you're asking about is also explained on thai-language.com:

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/cluster-tone

In short:

If the 2nd consonant in a cluster is sonorant (as in ขนม) then the tone is determined by the class of the 1st consonant.

If the 2nd consonant in a cluster is non-sonorant (as in ขจี) then the tone is determined by the class of the 2nd consonant.

Hope this helps...

[Puschl]

Neat. Thanks a lot, David & Eric.

Looks like I should go through the thai-language.com references section more systematically

With a sonorant second consonant, we observe tone carry-forward from first consonant.

With non-sonorant second consonat, there is no tone carry-forward and the second consonant prevails.

No rule without exception (ขมอย), but I won't let a word labeled as archaic distract me from learning a useful and easy rule (memory hook: หอ นำ, the silent, tone-changing ห, only occurs in conjunction with sonorants).