Learning A Martial Art In Pattaya

[englishinsiam]

"Charge at someone who knows what they're doing with an elbow and you will lose. "

Who who ever charge at somebody with their elbow?

By the way, where do you train "WT"? In Pattaya?

I wish there was somewhere in Pattaya to do some Judo, not because I think its good for self-defence, but because its fun and great for all round fitness and conditioning. Pity it doesn't seem to exist in Pattaya. (Combined with some striking skill I do think its good for self-defence by the way, but the best self-defence is still to run at the first sight of trouble)

In general all I ever see in Pattaya is Muay Thai but for most falang that seems to involve making loud slapping sounds on a pad held by the Thai instructor, great for fitness but probably not much more.

We train just behind Carrefore on my mates roof. He has a shophouse and a few of us get together Mondays and Thursdays. Sifu Ron is a 2nd Technician in WT and started his own schools in England before moving to Pattaya a few years later. Ron and I are in England and Germany right now so there is no training until after mid July. But otherwise we are training all year round.

Back to the elbow chargers I have seen it and it's suicide against someone who has a basic grounding in defence.

Just for non-martial artists so they can stay in the conversation this is Wing Chun:

Note: All Wing Chun ever captured on video against a trained resisting opponent of any other style is not "real" Wing Chun. Occasionally "Wing Chun" fighters may be seen on video doing techniques like the sprawl and double leg- should they be successful these are considered Wing Chun techniques. If unsuccessful see above.

Personally I practice my own hybrid blend of Llap-Goch, Kosho, Mok'bara which I have awarded myself the rank of 27th Dan. I train with entirely through visualization of hero scenarios during which I rescue hot Asian chicks. Yet, I am absolutely certain that should I ever be called upon to use it in real life I will kick ass.

That might be Wing Chun but it's not WT Wing Tsun. We learn the final recognised system from Yip Man. Leung Ting was his final closed door student and this has been verified by Yip Mans son. What happened with Wing Chun is there are so many different schools now most of them started teaching before they learn't the full system and changed things for their own interpretation. This has resulted in many different ways of teaching Wing Chun. Leung Ting wanted to distance himself from it and thats how WT was formed. There are very strict guidelines for teaching and training in WT That video was just a drill same as some of these

Sadly Bernd Wagner here is no longer with us.

Emin Boztepe is from Turkey and an animal as a fighter.

These are just a few snippets.

Where I come from martial arts are usually non-profit groups, people do it as a hobby, not as a business. I didn't see any prices on their website, how much do you pay?

Our Sifu just asks for 1,000 Baht for an hour and a half session whether there is 1 of us or 5 of us. I often have extra private Chi Sao (Sticking/Rolling Hands) lessons with him And it is all training not loads of callisthenics . Not everyone is after loads of money but if you don't pay something then you don't see the value in what you are learning.

Not everyone wants the same from Martial Arts thats why we will always have differing views and thats one of the things that makes Martial Arts so much fun.

[KMBKK]

That might be Wing Chun but it's not WT Wing Tsun. We learn the final recognised system from Yip Man. Leung Ting was his final closed door student and this has been verified by Yip Mans son. What happened with Wing Chun is there are so many different schools now most of them started teaching before they learn't the full system and changed things for their own interpretation. This has resulted in many different ways of teaching Wing Chun. Leung Ting wanted to distance himself from it and thats how WT was formed. There are very strict guidelines for teaching and training in WT That video was just a drill same as some of these

Ah lineage. My teacher learned his basketball drills from his teacher, who learned those drills from Michael Jordan. Now I do those basketball drills- and they look really awesome, but I've never actually held a ball or played the game. But of course I can and will win against people who play every day- my style is descended from Michael Jordan and he was better than them. Lineage Logic.

Sadly Bernd Wagner here is no longer with us.

Emin Boztepe is from Turkey and an animal as a fighter.

Yup, that's Wing Chun. The Bigfoot of martial arts, impossible to capture the real thing in the wild on camera.

It's unfortunate but generations without live sparring with other style have left most Kung <deleted> practitioners and their instructors without the foggiest idea of how to actually apply what they are doing or how it is relevant to actual fighting- because they avoid live open sparring like the rest of us avoid STDs.

In MMA we see the importance of the takedown and the dominant position- but that does not tell the full story. Under AoW rules in China, MMA fighters were able to use kicks to the head of a downed opponent. The Chinese Sanda fighters- while having absolutely no ground game, once they figured this out were able to use it with devastating effectiveness. With no time to pull guard, a clinch throw that transitions into a stomp can be very hard to defend (and death statistics from street fights in the UK support the real world lethality of the head stop.) This also makes the knock-down rules of TMA make a little bit more sense from a historical perspective.

So the clinch becomes of huge importance in the fight game - and we have seen how well skilled clinch fighters like Randy Couture have fared. It is a third range between ground, and standup- and there are precious few specialists. Grip fighting, the portion of the clinch that determines who gets the underhook and who get the overhook, elbow, wrist etc.- Shuai Jiao despite basically being a kung <deleted> style is very sophisticated in this respect. If you cannot get the grip, you cannot get the throw- so cannot quickly end the fight with a stomp.

If you look at Wing Chun, it is not totally dissimilar from the fighting for clinch position that you see in Greco-Roman wrestling, Judo, MMA, Shuai Jiao- with the exception that they don't know that's what they are doing because they have never applied it and they honestly think that slapping at each other will end a fight provided they do it super fast. It's a bit like learning the motion but never the application for a double leg takedown and thinking it was a shoulder strike to the pelvis.

Should you find a WC guy to train with (and most know better) they can't defend a low line takedown, but once mounted you'll find that a side armbar, or a keylock is reasonable well defended for someone who may never have seen one before and does not know what they are doing. This is an art made to dominate a clinch- and several generations back probably did.

The problems come when instead of doing what they are really good at- grip fighting, they try something silly like going all Bui Jee on the eyeballs- from the bottom of the mount, with the predictable result of going home without the use of their arms.

The problem with Wing Chun is not that the techniques were always ineffective, it's that it the art is so insular and dogma focused that the practitioners are not willing to eat crow and train openly with other styles long enough to make Wing Chun demonstrably effective again. The WC/WT/WV community can't get a handle on it's own politics, so can't afford to lose face (and students) to the other styles and do what is needed to be relevant again. That is unfortunate.

[morphic]

OK, sounds like Sityodtong is the only consistently recommended gym so far...any others?

Anyway, I am also skeptical of any style that doesn't involve competitive sparring and resistance. I also think sparring and resistance are a lot of fun and a very good way to stay fit and learn how to improve. So, my preferences would be Judo (try throwing against resistance and against someone who knows Judo and then you will begin to really learn how to throw/sweep/lock...practice against a cooperative and non-resistance "opponent" and you delude yourself...dangerous), BJJ (like Judo but much better once on the ground), Western boxing (wish I was younger and quicker), Muay Thai (if properly taught, not just smacking a pad endlessly) or even Krav Maga if I didn't think it was a rip off. Japanese Jujitsu would be fine too, as long as they are realistic, some of the techniques are amazing.

With any of these though you have to have safe training partners, as soon as I think a training partner will act in an irresponsible or uncontrolled manner, I back off...some of the techniques can kill/paralyze etc and a safe and civilized training environment is essential.

All this Wing Chun or WT stuff seems a bit silly to me. What happens when I get in close enough to sweep his legs away, as in Judo? And if all this sticky hands stuff works, why don't boxers use it, surely they would apply it to boxing? I've met some in the past and in sparring as soon as I just went in with a barrage of (soft) punches the black belt in this stuff went to pieces, he just seemed overwhelmed and couldn't respond and I promise you I was barely touching him, just that it was quite quick and continuous and I'm far from good at any of this stuff so this is really saying something.

[KMBKK]

All this Wing Chun or WT stuff seems a bit silly to me. What happens when I get in close enough to sweep his legs away, as in Judo? And if all this sticky hands stuff works, why don't boxers use it, surely they would apply it to boxing? I've met some in the past and in sparring as soon as I just went in with a barrage of (soft) punches the black belt in this stuff went to pieces, he just seemed overwhelmed and couldn't respond and I promise you I was barely touching him, just that it was quite quick and continuous and I'm far from good at any of this stuff so this is really saying something.

Well... in defense of traditional arts keep in mind that a "barrage of punches" only became possible once mufflers (boxing gloves) were introduced. Bare knuckle English boxers had to pick and place their punches VERY carefully over the course of fights that lasted hours because a broken hand would mean a loss by default- and the face is a very small target on someone whom is bobbing and weaving. They also used a guard of the sort reminiscent of Asian martial arts even prior to being exposed to them.

Even in UFC- punches only became viable once fighters had gloves to protect their hands. Prior to that many broke their hands early in the fight.

I don't practice TMA, but I think one has to be very careful about being entirely dismissive of them. At one point the idea of a martial art like Wrestling- largely unchanged for thousands of years would become so dominant once it's practitioners realized why the positions existed and what their game plan should be.

Even recently in MMA there have been a few very impressive knockouts with a sort of snapping front kick to the face which looks for all the world like a very silly TKD technique. Yet, a very good karate practitioner, who cross trained extensively figured out how to make it work against a professional fighter- and others have followed suit.

Edited June 13, 2011 by KMBKK

[englishinsiam]

Our European GM Kernspecht studied fighting for many years going to dockers towns and roughhouses across Europe and the far east and witnessed many fights.

He wasn't a WT man then he was a Body Builder but a scholar of combat, it fascinated him.

He has written many good books on the subject On Single Combat is I think his finest book. He is 2nd in the World now to Leung Ting in WT lineage. Anyway he devised the quick start system that all WT practitioners undertake in their early days called Blitz Defence. It was based on his studies of hundreds of brawls on how to react if confronted and on his previous and current training.

http://www.wingtsunwelt.com/artikel.php?id=942

Sticky hands or Chi Sao is used to build up sensitivity during training. The idea is if we have contact with the opponent we know what he is doing via impulses he gives. A good WT man should not give you any impulses but would use yours against you. Against a good WT man your flurry of punches (morphic) would most definately be brushed aside. I am by no means a good WT man yet but I have sparred against some very good martial artists and have yet to be intimidated.

[KMBKK]

For your enjoyment "Grandmaster Kernspecht":

http://youtu.be/w6O8T4RLZG8

Where do I sign up?

[englishinsiam]

For your enjoyment "Grandmaster Kernspecht":

http://youtu.be/w6O8T4RLZG8

Where do I sign up?

And your point is ?

[KMBKK]

And your point is ?

[morphic]

It may be called Krav Maga, or Isreali Jujitsu, but it is basically fast and aggressive Japanese Jujitsu and this guy is very very good...I would put my money on him versus WT...

I did Japanese Jujitsu for a couple of years before moving and changing to Judo as that is what was available. I wish I remembered it all, a lot of the techniques were very effective although we didn't train with this level of intensity, at least not at my level.

[englishinsiam]

Looks like we'll all have to agree to disagree.

All I know is I feel safe in the bars in Pattaya. I wonder how many others can say that? :-)

Enjoy your training guys.

[KMBKK]

It may be called Krav Maga, or Isreali Jujitsu, but it is basically fast and aggressive Japanese Jujitsu and this guy is very very good...I would put my money on him versus WT...

Who knows? I can't find any videos of the guy that are not staged demos. He is certianly not using any techniques that could not be used in full contact sparring. Wing Chun, Kali- all do awesome demos and movie fight choreography. If looking super cool won fights the Shaolin dudes would be on top. Some KM schools do quite vigorous, non cooperative force on force training. Not sure why I would single the guy out who seems to be doing nothing but throwing willing students around as "best".

[KMBKK]

All I know is I feel safe in the bars in Pattaya. I wonder how many others can say that? :-)

Pretty much every drunk in the bar "feels safe" and thinks he can kick all the other guys asses. That's kind of the problem, there's no particular lack of self confidence going around once the liquor starts flowing.

[Parker1973]

All I know is I feel safe in the bars in Pattaya. I wonder how many others can say that? :-)

Pretty much every drunk in the bar "feels safe" and thinks he can kick all the other guys asses. That's kind of the problem, there's no particular lack of self confidence going around once the liquor starts flowing.

englishinsiam merely said he felt safe in bars in pattaya,he never mentioned being drunk......im also english and feel safe too,and i dont drink.......

[englishinsiam]

Pretty much every drunk in the bar "feels safe" and thinks he can kick all the other guys asses. That's kind of the problem, there's no particular lack of self confidence going around once the liquor starts flowing.

englishinsiam merely said he felt safe in bars in pattaya,he never mentioned being drunk......im also english and feel safe too,and i dont drink.......

Thank you Parker - People like KMBKK seem to make assumptions that aren't there. hence my close in the Debate on the arts with him.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Pretty much every drunk in the bar "feels safe" and thinks he can kick all the other guys asses. That's kind of the problem, there's no particular lack of self confidence going around once the liquor starts flowing.

englishinsiam merely said he felt safe in bars in pattaya,he never mentioned being drunk......im also english and feel safe too,and i dont drink.......

Thank you Parker - People like KMBKK seem to make assumptions that aren't there. hence my close in the Debate on the arts with him.

Perhaps a quote from the "Master" is in order: "Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it."--Bruce Lee

[KMBKK]

Thank you Parker - People like KMBKK seem to make assumptions that aren't there. hence my close in the Debate on the arts with him.

What assumption? That drunks have little fear, hence confidence alone is a poor qualification for a martial art if the same can be found at the bottom of a pint glass?

Pretty much every drunk in the bar "feels safe" and thinks he can kick all the other guys asses. That's kind of the problem, there's no particular lack of self confidence going around once the liquor starts flowing.

You really read this as an insult? Either against you, or Englishmen? I have don't problem with a lively discussion- and defended TMA including aspects of WC articulately from several point of views where the historical record supports them. I don't mind if you are getting bored with it, but you chose to take insult where clearly none was offered and use me, instead of simple lack of interest (or evidence) as an excuse to remove yourself. Poor form.

[Parker1973]

Thank you Parker - People like KMBKK seem to make assumptions that aren't there. hence my close in the Debate on the arts with him.

What assumption? That drunks have little fear, hence confidence alone is a poor qualification for a martial art if the same can be found at the bottom of a pint glass?

Pretty much every drunk in the bar "feels safe" and thinks he can kick all the other guys asses. That's kind of the problem, there's no particular lack of self confidence going around once the liquor starts flowing.

You really read this as an insult? Either against you, or Englishmen? I have don't problem with a lively discussion- and defended TMA including aspects of WC articulately from several point of views where the historical record supports them. I don't mind if you are getting bored with it, but you chose to take insult where clearly none was offered and use me, instead of simple lack of interest (or evidence) as an excuse to remove yourself. Poor form.

I totally agree with u that drink causes most fights and makes the aggressor braver than he would be if sober,however, u made the comment in reply to englishinsiam that 'pretty much every drunkin the bar feels safe',i was merely pointing out that he said he felt safe,due to his martial arts training,not on the account of being drunk.....

[raro]

Chill pills please or I need to use my secret moderator skills...

[morphic]

Thank you Parker - People like KMBKK seem to make assumptions that aren't there. hence my close in the Debate on the arts with him.

What assumption? That drunks have little fear, hence confidence alone is a poor qualification for a martial art if the same can be found at the bottom of a pint glass?

Pretty much every drunk in the bar "feels safe" and thinks he can kick all the other guys asses. That's kind of the problem, there's no particular lack of self confidence going around once the liquor starts flowing.

You really read this as an insult? Either against you, or Englishmen? I have don't problem with a lively discussion- and defended TMA including aspects of WC articulately from several point of views where the historical record supports them. I don't mind if you are getting bored with it, but you chose to take insult where clearly none was offered and use me, instead of simple lack of interest (or evidence) as an excuse to remove yourself. Poor form.

Yes, good point. And as an example I wouldn't mind a few lessons in "sticky hands", just to see whether there is more to it than at first sight. Use of balance of sensing an opponents movement is very subtle and difficult to see, you have to feel it. Perhaps there are lessons in balance and sensitivity to learn, without having to dedicate too much time and without getting sucked into believing it is by itself an effective form of combat or self-defence compared to the others discussed here.

I have only ever been on one bar fight and that was a decade ago when I was attacked, when drunk, by a big drunk American. I had at that time learned just a little Japanese Jujitsu and as this guy charged I used a simple technique, a beginners when, not aggressively at all, to take his balance and bring him to the ground. He wasn't hurt, I didn't continue, the fight ended almost before it began. He wasn't a dangerous type really, just a big drunk and certainly not a martial arts type. The point is I was able to react in a measured way because I had learned a few different techniques. The more you know, the more appropriate your response can be. Imagine if all I had known was Krav Maga, maybe I would have gone balistic with elbows and knees, inflicting unnecessary damage, maybe ending up in jail myself.

I have known people to use very dangerous techniques on people who were really not a danger, a few blocks would have sufficed, not breaking a jaw and knocking someones teeth out. I actually hate violence, it is truly horrible, I hate the idea of actually breaking another human being, unless they happen top be truly evil or to be a serious danger. Violence also scares me. So for me, its about being proportionate, not a thug. There is a big difference between staying fit and enjoying sparring/rabdori/ground fighting in a gym and fighting in the street which is just plain ugly.

So perhaps sticky hands is more practical in low level situations where you really just need to neutralise a low level attack, rather than throw/strike/break. We don't always need the most devastating method, but we always need an appropriate one.

[morphic]

Pretty much every drunk in the bar "feels safe" and thinks he can kick all the other guys asses. That's kind of the problem, there's no particular lack of self confidence going around once the liquor starts flowing.

englishinsiam merely said he felt safe in bars in pattaya,he never mentioned being drunk......im also english and feel safe too,and i dont drink.......

Thank you Parker - People like KMBKK seem to make assumptions that aren't there. hence my close in the Debate on the arts with him.

Perhaps a quote from the "Master" is in order: "Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it."--Bruce Lee

Ooops, I replied to the wrong person before:

Yes, good point. And as an example I wouldn't mind a few lessons in "sticky hands", just to see whether there is more to it than at first sight. Use of balance of sensing an opponents movement is very subtle and difficult to see, you have to feel it. Perhaps there are lessons in balance and sensitivity to learn, without having to dedicate too much time and without getting sucked into believing it is by itself an effective form of combat or self-defence compared to the others discussed here.

I have only ever been on one bar fight and that was a decade ago when I was attacked, when drunk, by a big drunk American. I had at that time learned just a little Japanese Jujitsu and as this guy charged I used a simple technique, a beginners when, not aggressively at all, to take his balance and bring him to the ground. He wasn't hurt, I didn't continue, the fight ended almost before it began. He wasn't a dangerous type really, just a big drunk and certainly not a martial arts type. The point is I was able to react in a measured way because I had learned a few different techniques. The more you know, the more appropriate your response can be. Imagine if all I had known was Krav Maga, maybe I would have gone balistic with elbows and knees, inflicting unnecessary damage, maybe ending up in jail myself.

I have known people to use very dangerous techniques on people who were really not a danger, a few blocks would have sufficed, not breaking a jaw and knocking someones teeth out. I actually hate violence, it is truly horrible, I hate the idea of actually breaking another human being, unless they happen top be truly evil or to be a serious danger. Violence also scares me. So for me, its about being proportionate, not a thug. There is a big difference between staying fit and enjoying sparring/rabdori/ground fighting in a gym and fighting in the street which is just plain ugly.

So perhaps sticky hands is more practical in low level situations where you really just need to neutralise a low level attack, rather than throw/strike/break. We don't always need the most devastating method, but we always need an appropriate one.

[KMBKK]

I totally agree with u that drink causes most fights and makes the aggressor braver than he would be if sober,however, u made the comment in reply to englishinsiam that 'pretty much every drunkin the bar feels safe',i was merely pointing out that he said he felt safe,due to his martial arts training,not on the account of being drunk.....

He implied that it was unusual to feel safe in a bar. I pointed out that was not the case as bars also have drunks in them, and drunks feel safe. At no time did I say or imply anything about his consumption of alcohol. He made it clear that his confidence came from Wing Chun. My concern is that a little confidence can be a dangerous thing, so in a thread where a beginner is looking for an effective system confidence versus empirical evidence needs to be addressed.

None of us would decline to use a condom just because our friends have told us stories of not doing so and being fine- or gain confidence from past unprotected encounters. We've all heard of Thai girls who seek to protect themselves from STDs with amulets- equally well grounded in mysticism and anecdote. These ladies have absolute confidence in the protection that these objects and rituals offer as well. We quote the science and the evidence and declare it foolishness. If mystic martial arts are "real" without video or forensic evidence then so are ghosts- and videoed "demonstrations" of some guy running around in a sheet credible proof that ghosts exist. Sensei, Sifu, Grandmaster, Monk whatever mystics decide to call themselves, just because they tell you something- does not make it so.

Why should a health risk of such overwhelming importance as physical assault be held to a less rigorous scientific standard? Would you try to get your blood pressure down by standing on leg and wiggling your ears just because some guy insists his teachers, teacher said it would work? Or would you see what professionals do, and what has empirical evidence to support it's efficacy?

[morphic]

I totally agree with u that drink causes most fights and makes the aggressor braver than he would be if sober,however, u made the comment in reply to englishinsiam that 'pretty much every drunkin the bar feels safe',i was merely pointing out that he said he felt safe,due to his martial arts training,not on the account of being drunk.....

He implied that it was unusual to feel safe in a bar. I pointed out that was not the case as bars also have drunks in them, and drunks feel safe. At no time did I say or imply anything about his consumption of alcohol. He made it clear that his confidence came from Wing Chun. My concern is that a little confidence can be a dangerous thing, so in a thread where a beginner is looking for an effective system confidence versus empirical evidence needs to be addressed.

None of us would decline to use a condom just because our friends have told us stories of not doing so and being fine- or gain confidence from past unprotected encounters. We've all heard of Thai girls who seek to protect themselves from STDs with amulets- equally well grounded in mysticism and anecdote. These ladies have absolute confidence in the protection that these objects and rituals offer as well. We quote the science and the evidence and declare it foolishness. If mystic martial arts are "real" without video or forensic evidence then so are ghosts- and videoed "demonstrations" of some guy running around in a sheet credible proof that ghosts exist. Sensei, Sifu, Grandmaster, Monk whatever mystics decide to call themselves, just because they tell you something- does not make it so.

Why should a health risk of such overwhelming importance as physical assault be held to a less rigorous scientific standard? Would you try to get your blood pressure down by standing on leg and wiggling your ears just because some guy insists his teachers, teacher said it would work? Or would you see what professionals do, and what has empirical evidence to support it's efficacy?

Yes, points taken about misplaced confidence, especially when alcohol driven. Over confidence is always dangerous and I very much doubt WT would be effective against a capable attacker, or a group, or against weapons, not from what I've seen. But that doesn't mean it is useless, just not the most effective against a serious attacker.

Self-defence isn't always about fighting for your life, using potentially lethal techniques, braking limbs, striking in the weak points etc. I think its good to have a range of tools, to be able to react in a way that is proportionate. Also, what is effective in a gym when sparring against an opponent also versed and capable, doesn't always translate into a real life situation.

Sure, WT doesn't look effective compared to Jujitsu, Krav Maga etc. It wont work on the ground that's for sure. And it probably won't work against any serious attacker.

But, there may still be lessons to learn from it, perhaps little tricks of balance and blocking that could be just the right thing for a low level attacker that doesn't justify a full fledged attack.

I'm reminded of seeing endless footage of US policeman taking every person they encounter down in the same violent way, even frail and old people. Many of these police probably lack the finesse and knowledge to do anything else. They may not have a range of tools, just a single, very effective one that is overkill in most cases. To a person who only has a single tool, a hammer, every problem will look like a nail.

So, as I said before, I would be open to a few lessons in WT, just to see if there are any little techniques or tricks that may well be useful in certain circumstances.

[RusticCharm]

There's a Thai martial art that's more widespread than Muay Thai but less well-known. It's called 'Tenonone'. It's when ten Thai 'toughs' beat the crap out of a lone inebriated westerner.

[KMBKK]

Self-defence isn't always about fighting for your life, using potentially lethal techniques, braking limbs, striking in the weak points etc. I think its good to have a range of tools, to be able to react in a way that is proportionate.

I'm in full agreement, there is little point in saving your wallet if it means paying to get out of a Thai jail. This is where Use of Force models etc are essential- but unfortunately real Defensive Tactics require whiteboards and lectures so are not very popular with the sort people who usually comprise a large portion of martial art school student bodies (ie. got mugged once or bullied in their teens and now want to learn how to "kick ass".)

Krav Maga, due to it's background assumes no legal consequences and teaches techniques accordingly- even though their use outside of Israel, let alone by a civilian would have consequences far beyond the threat posed (in the US, you gouge someones eyes out, you are going to jail for a long time regardless of the provocation). One of the good things about MCMAP is uses simple, well founded techniques and it keeps *legal* use of force in mind throughout the entire curriculum.

Edited June 15, 2011 by KMBKK

[braverrouge]

It is funny to me when people equate Seagal with Aikido.

Why? Isn't he a high (?) dan black belt in Aikido?

and wasn't he a Aikido teacher before making movies?

And to come back to the subject, another place : http://www.aikido-pattaya.com/ near Big C Sukhumvit

Just want to let you guys know that Pattaya Aikikai Aikido has closed down due to some personal issues of the instructors.

[braverrouge]

It is funny to me when people equate Seagal with Aikido.

Dunno - this looks pretty real to me.

but then again maybe this is real too

From the perspective of an Aikido & Karate practitioner, I find that many people underestimating Seagals skills.

I agree that his later movies were not the best but that has still nothing to do with his skills.

Just watching the demos and seminar videos from Seagal available on Youtube, I've to say that Seagal has extremely fast and precise techniques.

Akido can be in any many ways effective as well as ineffective in a self defense situation.

Self defense situations are unpredicted situations where the defender has to react with what ever comes at him.

Whether you can walk away from the situation with a few scratches or serious injury depends on each individual and not on the martial art style itself.

[morphic]

It is funny to me when people equate Seagal with Aikido.

Why? Isn't he a high (?) dan black belt in Aikido?

and wasn't he a Aikido teacher before making movies?

And to come back to the subject, another place : http://www.aikido-pattaya.com/ near Big C Sukhumvit

Just want to let you guys know that Pattaya Aikikai Aikido has closed down due to some personal issues of the instructors.

Aikido is absurdly hierarchical, almost more of a cult, instructors demand to be worshipped, not merely respected. So ego based disputes between the instructor prima donnas throwing tantrums is something i've witnessed before with Aikido.

Personally I have zero interest in learning it and think Aikido is a waste of time, better to learn Judo or Jujitsu, same techniques, more or less, better attitude, infinitely better practice via sparring. In practical terms a Judo Green belt could probably beat the average Aikido black belt or higher Dan. That is because Judo is practiced against resistance in a highly competitive environment which balances safety with full power application. Aikido is just show, cooperation and role play.

[braverrouge]

Aikido is absurdly hierarchical, almost more of a cult, instructors demand to be worshipped, not merely respected. So ego based disputes between the instructor prima donnas throwing tantrums is something i've witnessed before with Aikido.

Personally I have zero interest in learning it and think Aikido is a waste of time, better to learn Judo or Jujitsu, same techniques, more or less, better attitude, infinitely better practice via sparring. In practical terms a Judo Green belt could probably beat the average Aikido black belt or higher Dan. That is because Judo is practiced against resistance in a highly competitive environment which balances safety with full power application. Aikido is just show, cooperation and role play.

It's kind of weird, I had Judo guys training Aikido under me and had the total opposite response from them.

Anyhow, those were actual martial arts practitioners ......

Talking about worship, none of my students worshiped me as an instructor neither did I asked for it.

All my students, regardless of grade, did call me by my name and not sensei or master.

However, that's past anyway

Edited June 21, 2011 by Phil Conners
Fixed botched quote

[englishinsiam]

Sorry guys I have not been on the forum for a few days.

And have just checked back here, interesting to see your view points on various arts including WT.

Just to re-iterate I am 40 years old and started my Martial Arts training at 14. I first started Goju-Ryu Karate Okinawan not Japanese Goju. And I obtained a 2nd Kyu in that discipline.

I then moved onto Tae-Kwon do as I moved home and didn't find a Goju school nearby. In my time I have moved home many times always learning an art nearby. In such I have learnt/studied and watched many if not most of the major disciplines. Including the fabled Ninjustu (Bujinkan Dojo) for a short while.

In all my training I have found WT the most street effective I have DVD's of groundwork in WT if you don't think we don't go to ground then thats a dangerous misconception if you come across a capable WT guy my ground game isn't very good at the moment as I am still learning however there are some very good guys out there.

Back to Chi Sao (Sticking Hands) we actually refer to it as rolling hands in WT as we roll from a <deleted> sao and a tan sao to a bong sao and back again. The idea is you keep contact with your training partner gradually speeding up and then trying to attack the other in numerous ways. You have to stop the attack by means of feeling as the eyes can be fooled touch can't be fooled in the same way. This takes many many man hours of training to achieve as you are changing your bodies reactions to react to touch rather than sight. Again I am no expert but I am getting a very good feeling and understanding of this and am now starting to react unconsciously and since I have been in England have sparred with my Brother in Law and Nephew both MMA/Jiu Jitsu guys my brother in Law is 6ft 7 and is considered one of the handiest guys in his town. He has tried grabs, locks, throws, punches and can't believe how quick I react to all of them. Now if he was a charging angry bull I don't know if my reactions would be quick enough yet but I know in time they would be.

I like to train as realistic as is reasonably safe because I know people wont give me a second chance in the street.

I agree with Krav Maga being just thuggery we always look at the Legal aspect of our actions in WT too. And we learn how to control and not destroy someone who is just sillily drunk or needs ejecting without breaking bones. However that is always a judgement call based on the situation and how confident you might be in controlling the situation without getting hurt yourself.

Judo Aikido and Jiu Jitsu are also very good in that regard. Someone said about a few blocks would suffice..... Errrm no that is suicide to think you can do that, while your standing there blocking the guy is building up confidence and adrenaline and every time you block you are in a new fight. You are keeping to his distance, get in close and control him immediately don't stand there trading punches or blocks as then the fittest or the bravest man will win.

[morphic]

Aikido is absurdly hierarchical, almost more of a cult, instructors demand to be worshipped, not merely respected. So ego based disputes between the instructor prima donnas throwing tantrums is something i've witnessed before with Aikido.

Personally I have zero interest in learning it and think Aikido is a waste of time, better to learn Judo or Jujitsu, same techniques, more or less, better attitude, infinitely better practice via sparring. In practical terms a Judo Green belt could probably beat the average Aikido black belt or higher Dan. That is because Judo is practiced against resistance in a highly competitive environment which balances safety with full power application. Aikido is just show, cooperation and role play.

It's kind of weird, I had Judo guys training Aikido under me and had the total opposite response from them.

Anyhow, those were actual martial arts practitioners ......

Talking about worship, none of my students worshiped me as an instructor neither did I asked for it.

All my students, regardless of grade, did call me by my name and not sensei or master.

However, that's past anyway

Fair points, wrong of me to generalise. Hope you manage to get started up again.