Defoliants

[Gatorade]

Near to my house a field has been cut right back and now everything green is turning a dark shade of brown. It would seem some sort of chemical has been sprayed on it.

I've now seen this many times in Samui and the finished appearance is very much like the chemicals used, such as 'Agent Orange' in Vietnam.

It would seem to be totally irresponsible if defoliants are being used here as the chemicals will pass through into the water table.

God knows what the effects will be long term on the fauna and flora if such chemicals are being used.

Perhaps there are stockpiles of the stuff left over from the Vietnam war, it would hardly be surprising.

I think that I know the answer but I wonder what sort of safety measures are in place when using this stuff? If it can reduce a whole field into a bare brown patch in a couple of days it's got to be pretty potent.

Anyone know? It's very worrying.

[sbk]

I know the stuff you mean, its not a defoliant per se but seems to attack certain grasses. However, spraying near our avo trees in years past has reduced the flowers and fruit. I've never found out the name as I try to stay as far away from it as possible.

I agree wholeheartedly that it can't be a good thing for anyone.

[kokesaat]

It's likely Roundup or a generic glyphosate that does the same thing. Wiki will tell you all about it. The sugar cane farmers in the Northeast use it after planting a new crop to keep the weeks to a minimum. Generally speaking, only a light mist is needed to kill the weeds.....and little, if any, is absorbed into the ground. Runoff into standing water, on the other hand, is not good for aquatic life.

Roundup isn't Agent Orange....although some people might like you believe that it's the same thing.

[Atmos]

Paraquat

commonly used where we were living in Sa Kaeo province; never seen anything work so fast, no Roundup/glyphosate takes effect that quickly.

Infinite Opportunities Ahead for Paraquat Industry in China

June 2, 2011 As a non-selective herbicide and with so many years' promotion, paraquat has witnessed fast development in the past decades in China, and it has been playing an increasingly important role in weed control of orchards, corn fields, no-tillage fields and mulberry fields in China.

It is reported that most paraquat (including technical and formulations) produced in China is used for export, which takes up a large proportion of the total output every year. Thailand is the largest export destination of Chinese paraquat technical by volume

Edited July 13, 2011 by Atmos

[maccaroni man]

Paraquat

commonly used where we were living in Sa Kaeo province; never seen anything work so fast, no Roundup/glyphosate takes effect that quickly.

Infinite Opportunities Ahead for Paraquat Industry in China

June 2, 2011 As a non-selective herbicide and with so many years' promotion, paraquat has witnessed fast development in the past decades in China, and it has been playing an increasingly important role in weed control of orchards, corn fields, no-tillage fields and mulberry fields in China.

It is reported that most paraquat (including technical and formulations) produced in China is used for export, which takes up a large proportion of the total output every year. Thailand is the largest export destination of Chinese paraquat technical by volume

isnt that what they used in the 70's in mexico to control marijauna.

[xen]

Paraquat , Triquat or any of the other herbicides in that family only work on green soft tissued plants and will not be effective on Woody plants as a herbicide (that is not to say that they don't have envirionmental side effects) .

Most likely what was sprayed was 24D or 245 T or another formulation from that family of herbicides if it is more than grasses that were sprayed. These commonly have ammine salts as a major incrediant and these were a large component in Agent Orange herbicides. They work as a hormone that promotes rapid plant growth and the plant cells will "burst" and kill the plant. Twisted and disfigured plant growth is a sign of these herbicides being used, particularly in the stem areas of woody plants . These chemicals are still available for woody plant and tree killers . They have a distintive smell that lasts for days if they have been sprayed and the effects will be visable within hours of application , just like paraqauat .

[NALAK]

glyphospate is is systemic and kills he plant by starving the root of food, could possibly be that, i use it around the garden. paraquat is highly toxic it wont be that as its residual and stays in the soil preventing anything from growing again for a while. many people use for suicide . not a nice way to go. i just had pa pa water installed as to many sprays around where i live. if we sold paraquat in Uk had to be to a known proffesional person, the poison book that was kept in a safe had to be filled out and was regularly inspected by police. amazed it can be purchased off the shelf here. 24 d is selective broad leave killer which could also have been used. those guys spray it on and dont even where a mask, madness they will be dead in years. glyphospate used a lot in UK and i suspect USA on oil seed rape to desicate it. but yes if your drinking from a water course near by i would be worried

safety measures, not a chance it can be purchased in home pro

Edited July 14, 2011 by NALAK

[xen]

glyphospate is is systemic and kills he plant by starving the root of food, could possibly be that, i use it around the garden. paraquat is highly toxic it wont be that as its residual and stays in the soil preventing anything from growing again for a while. many people use for suicide . not a nice way to go. i just had pa pa water installed as to many sprays around where i live. if we sold paraquat in Uk had to be to a known proffesional person, the poison book that was kept in a safe had to be filled out and was regularly inspected by police. amazed it can be purchased off the shelf here. 24 d is selective broad leave killer which could also have been used. those guys spray it on and dont even where a mask, madness they will be dead in years. glyphospate used a lot in UK and i suspect USA on oil seed rape to desicate it. but yes if your drinking from a water course near by i would be worried

safety measures, not a chance it can be purchased in home pro

Hi Nalak,

Is it true that paraquat is highly toxic - kills humans by paralysing the lungs so the persons actually dies from lack of air ,It is one of the most common suicde methods in many agricultual communities however it is not a residual in the soil. Try using it mixed with muddy water and you will find it is ineffective as a herbicide. There are a few different formulations like Triquat,Diquat .amongst others so perhaps the one u see being used has other residual herbicides in it.

The selective broadleaf weed herbicides that u mention contain other chemicals from a similar group of chemicals but as i said in my previous post, 24D is a non selective . In the professional turf industries we tend not to use them anymore and there are much more effective, less toxic and more envirionmentally safe chemicals but unfortunatly the huge chemical companies tend to dump their unwanted or surplus chemicals in markets such as Thailand.

[NALAK]

glyphospate is is systemic and kills he plant by starving the root of food, could possibly be that, i use it around the garden. paraquat is highly toxic it wont be that as its residual and stays in the soil preventing anything from growing again for a while. many people use for suicide . not a nice way to go. i just had pa pa water installed as to many sprays around where i live. if we sold paraquat in Uk had to be to a known proffesional person, the poison book that was kept in a safe had to be filled out and was regularly inspected by police. amazed it can be purchased off the shelf here. 24 d is selective broad leave killer which could also have been used. those guys spray it on and dont even where a mask, madness they will be dead in years. glyphospate used a lot in UK and i suspect USA on oil seed rape to desicate it. but yes if your drinking from a water course near by i would be worried

safety measures, not a chance it can be purchased in home pro

Hi Nalak,

Is it true that paraquat is highly toxic - kills humans by paralysing the lungs so the persons actually dies from lack of air ,It is one of the most common suicde methods in many agricultual communities however it is not a residual in the soil. Try using it mixed with muddy water and you will find it is ineffective as a herbicide. There are a few different formulations like Triquat,Diquat .amongst others so perhaps the one u see being used has other residual herbicides in it.

The selective broadleaf weed herbicides that u mention contain other chemicals from a similar group of chemicals but as i said in my previous post, 24D is a non selective . In the professional turf industries we tend not to use them anymore and there are much more effective, less toxic and more envirionmentally safe chemicals but unfortunatly the huge chemical companies tend to dump their unwanted or surplus chemicals in markets such as Thailand.

24d slective broad leaf weed killer google 24d first on the list states slective broadleaf killer i sold it under brand name grazon http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1TSEE_ENUK346&=&q=24d+weed+killer&aq=0p&aqi=p-p1g4g-s1g3g-s1&aql=&oq=24d

paraquat will prevent regermination for upto 2 weeks as its residual in the soil, where as glyphophate is not. sold paraquat as gramoxone and glyphosphate as round up.

35ml can be lethal dose.

all there to be googled and confirmed, regermination can be effected for upto 14 days with paraquat as its residual. http://www.jstor.org/pss/25555378

either way nasty stuff and is why i just had pa pa installed.

apparantly Thailand is one of the biggest exporters of paraquat an awful lot to China. if its for home use upto them but thailand is loosing contracts with major western buyers as repeated warnings of over use of chemicals went unheeded.

turf industry was interesting we supplied, wembley stadium, old trafford and rangers not directly but through growers we supplied seed to.

[Atmos]

^ Gramoxone - that's the one they use (my post #4) on the farm property.

No gloves or mask, just out with a backpack sprayer.

[NALAK]

^ Gramoxone - that's the one they use (my post #4) on the farm property.

No gloves or mask, just out with a backpack sprayer.

total madness, heres what they have coming in the not to distant future ( Link). i just read your post again China exports paraquat to thailand one of its biggest importers. i read it as the other way round, but china is the exporter, i read it wrong. as this link shows its licensed in USA as it is in UK. its really tough to get it in UK. if they are spraying near buy i would close windows and stay inside until finished. it is diluted of course but still a lethal slow painful killer. many a british farmer took his life this way, surly shot gun under the chin must have been better option. i was the manager of Ag business and we used to store the stuff, what a nightmare, poison book, police, water authority, fire brigade, local authority health and safety all coming with do this do that, storeage to be able to contain 3 times amount of liquid held. i wanted to stop storing the stuff but head office insisted we did, but it was my neck on the block if anyhting happened.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001085.htm

[taninthai]

Interesting topic we have been using some chemical for our resort it says glycine derivate 48% isopropylamine salt 38% n-phosphonomethyl glycine

Also says glyphosate isopropylammonium

Do you know anything about this and would you consider it safe to use we dilute about 120 ml into 40 gallons of water

It takes around 5 days to kill off the weeds produced by monsanto

Edited July 15, 2011 by taninthai

[NALAK]

Interesting topic we have been using some chemical for our resort it says glycine derivate 48% isopropylamine salt 38% n-phosphonomethyl glycine

Also says glyphosate isopropylammonium

Do you know anything about this and would you consider it safe to use we dilute about 120 ml into 40 gallons of water

It takes around 5 days to kill off the weeds produced by monsanto

i use it around my property Monsanto developed the product glyphosphate, takes about 5 days as it prevents the roots taking in food so plant dies slowly over 5 days, not instantly like paraquat. Monsanto said it was safe to let cattle back into a feild day after using glyphospate, where as paraquat leave few days. the other products seem to be used in the make up of the glyphosate. found this in google about one of the contents. i was BACIS qualified ( means years at uni) to advise on use of both products in in UK so would say its ok to use for what your using for. i certainly use it around my house. problem as differnt strenghts of glyphophate so weaker the contents in the bottle the more you have to use. if the plants die your using enough if they dont it needs to be stronger thats the way i work with it. hope that helps but i would have no concerns

Chemical feedstockGlycine is an intermediate in the synthesis of a variety of chemical products. It is used in the manufacture of the herbicide glyphosate. Glyphosate is a non-selective systemic herbicide used to kill weeds, especially perennials and broadcast or used in the cut-stump treatment as a forestry herbicide. Initially, glyphosate was sold only by Monsanto under the tradename Roundup, but is no longer under patent.

[taninthai]

Interesting topic we have been using some chemical for our resort it says glycine derivate 48% isopropylamine salt 38% n-phosphonomethyl glycine

Also says glyphosate isopropylammonium

Do you know anything about this and would you consider it safe to use we dilute about 120 ml into 40 gallons of water

It takes around 5 days to kill off the weeds produced by monsanto

i use it around my property Monsanto developed the product glyphosphate, takes about 5 days as it prevents the roots taking in food so plant dies slowly over 5 days, not instantly like paraquat. Monsanto said it was safe to let cattle back into a feild day after using glyphospate, where as paraquat leave few days. the other products seem to be used in the make up of the glyphosate. found this in google about one of the contents. i was BACIS qualified ( means years at uni) to advise on use of both products in in UK so would say its ok to use for what your using for. i certainly use it around my house. problem as differnt strenghts of glyphophate so weaker the contents in the bottle the more you have to use. if the plants die your using enough if they dont it needs to be stronger thats the way i work with it. hope that helps but i would have no concerns

Chemical feedstockGlycine is an intermediate in the synthesis of a variety of chemical products. It is used in the manufacture of the herbicide glyphosate. Glyphosate is a non-selective systemic herbicide used to kill weeds, especially perennials and broadcast or used in the cut-stump treatment as a forestry herbicide. Initially, glyphosate was sold only by Monsanto under the tradename Roundup, but is no longer under patent.

thanks that has put mind at rest you certainly seem to know what your talking about

[NALAK]

Interesting topic we have been using some chemical for our resort it says glycine derivate 48% isopropylamine salt 38% n-phosphonomethyl glycine

Also says glyphosate isopropylammonium

Do you know anything about this and would you consider it safe to use we dilute about 120 ml into 40 gallons of water

It takes around 5 days to kill off the weeds produced by monsanto

i use it around my property Monsanto developed the product glyphosphate, takes about 5 days as it prevents the roots taking in food so plant dies slowly over 5 days, not instantly like paraquat. Monsanto said it was safe to let cattle back into a feild day after using glyphospate, where as paraquat leave few days. the other products seem to be used in the make up of the glyphosate. found this in google about one of the contents. i was BACIS qualified ( means years at uni) to advise on use of both products in in UK so would say its ok to use for what your using for. i certainly use it around my house. problem as differnt strenghts of glyphophate so weaker the contents in the bottle the more you have to use. if the plants die your using enough if they dont it needs to be stronger thats the way i work with it. hope that helps but i would have no concerns

Chemical feedstockGlycine is an intermediate in the synthesis of a variety of chemical products. It is used in the manufacture of the herbicide glyphosate. Glyphosate is a non-selective systemic herbicide used to kill weeds, especially perennials and broadcast or used in the cut-stump treatment as a forestry herbicide. Initially, glyphosate was sold only by Monsanto under the tradename Roundup, but is no longer under patent.

thanks that has put mind at rest you certainly seem to know what your talking about

no problem glad to have helped, was not aware the Monsanto brand was available here, will have to look out for it as thats the real deal, what i buy is a cheap generic which is not that good. do you get it at one of the big stores?

[taninthai]

I get it from a small thai shop sort of shop that sells strimmers ,water pumps and general diy stuff not on samui by the way I'm located around krabi

Thanks again

[samuijimmy]

Just to "weigh in" here, there have been some good replies to this post...

Glyphospate AKA "Round up" is commonly used here and in the "west" for control of Perennial weeds and grasses... (couch grass, etc)

I just checked my bottle, it has no reference to Monsanto.... just bottled under a Thai name... 48% and sounds the same in Thai and English.... Same with Gramoxone

Gyphoshate will kill anything that is green, but really intended for perennial weeds / grass etc....(slowly absorbs to the roots... therefore if used roots should not be disturbed for at least 7 to 10 days......the longer the better... but really should be applied long before seeds develop, because in the time it takes to kill the weed the seed heads would have popped.... therefore the cycle starts again, much faster. I've noticed everyone when using always waits too long before applying.... not just the Thai's but "Farangs" too.... Wait at least 4 hours before allowing pets or even humans off areas where it is applied.

It was not until recently I knew that Gramoxone was available here, as long banned in most "western countries" now, I would guess... No antidote to it. again as already pointed out should be used (if at all) with great care and protective clothing and mask... It is bluish green colour and has a very distinctive smell to it...

It is a fast killer of annual weeds, and will only kill back the tops of perennial weeds. So if it is used it's important to know the difference between annual weeds and perennial ones.... otherwise it sort of defeats the purpose.

Keep and use all chemicals out of reach of Children....also, never spray if it is windy!

That's my two bits worth!

[BergRace]

35% Vinegar mixed 1:2 with water. Sounds to good to be true?

Here is an article with pics although in Norwegian: http://www.dinside.n...vann-mot-ugress

Click on the link saying "Klikk her for å se alle 7 bildene" . Two scenarios, first pic before spraying, second pick an hour later, third pic two and a half days later. The last picture is what happens to your lawn after two and a half days.

J.

[NALAK]

the great hing about gramoxone its works fast, we had a much hated lecturer at Uni, he was also a warden and the one that awarded late passes back into dorms, as in after 11. he was a liitle hilter. on the day we got our degrees big cermony all parents attending and local dignatories. 2 fellow studens got some gramoxone and wrote in the chem on the nice lawn eveybody had to dive past, Twiggy is a C***. great there on the lawns for all to see. perannial grass, how ever creeping fescue so would have eventualy filled in. slightly off topic but good at the time.

48% gramoxone, i find even when i double up the strenght comes no where near the monsanto round up pro, but then again maybe it evaporates in the heat and does not get absorbed at the same rate as in UK.

biggest use now in UK is for desication of oil seed rape.

scary stuff seeing the Thais spraying Gramoxone no mask with back pack sprayer, short lives for sure and painfull ending. best left alone stick with the glyphosphate

Edited August 14, 2011 by NALAK

[samuijimmy]

BergRace, on Yesterday, 18:46 , said:

35% Vinegar mixed 1:2 with water. Sounds to good to be true?

Here is an article with pics although in Norwegian: http://www.dinside.n...vann-mot-ugress

Click on the link saying "Klikk her for å se alle 7 bildene" . Two scenarios, first pic before spraying, second pick an hour later, third pic two and a half days later. The last picture is what happens to your lawn after two and a half days.

I think we need Big C to translate this for us!!! wonder if he's back yet?

Seriously though, trying to find 35% vinegar might be a little difficult here... Usually sold @ 5%.... Is 35% the pickling vinegar, I don't really remember...

I think that's going to be a hard find here! ... Mae Mee!

A few years back in was promoted in Canada as a "weed killer" but from my trials with it was never very effective... and buggered up my sprayers...; if I remember, the mixture also had salt in it... Salt would kill plants anyway....

Salt is actually more toxic than many chemicals, in large amounts. ...

I see in the picture on that link, they are showing Dandelions, I have my doubts that it would fully kill back perennial weeds... it may kill back the top.... but dandelions are not a problem here... neither is clover...

I often get people asking why there is no "weed and feed" here, well the reason being,is simple, they contain selective weed killers, for things like, clover, dandelions etc.... NOT grass...

The best solution is to prevent weeds especially in lawns is not to allow the weeds to go to seed... That sensitive plant can be a menace here, with its prickly stems creeping along the ground... (closes up the leaves when you touch it... and not nice to walk on in bare feet.

Prevention always better than cure... Prevent plants from going to seed, if at all possible...; But as I mentioned in an earlier post, Gyphosphate is useless on annual weeds, which will seed before they die... so avoid by hoeing... in garden situations... The blue flowered weed, is the most common annual weed you see here.

Nalak: I'm, surprised you had Gramoxone around the skool at that age, or at all for that matter.; The teacher we would have done that to, was Mr Hunt.... I'll say no more....

Edited August 14, 2011 by Rooo

[nocturn]

Interesting topic we have been using some chemical for our resort it says glycine derivate 48% isopropylamine salt 38% n-phosphonomethyl glycine

Also says glyphosate isopropylammonium

Do you know anything about this and would you consider it safe to use we dilute about 120 ml into 40 gallons of water

It takes around 5 days to kill off the weeds produced by monsanto

i use it around my property Monsanto developed the product glyphosphate, takes about 5 days as it prevents the roots taking in food so plant dies slowly over 5 days, not instantly like paraquat. Monsanto said it was safe to let cattle back into a feild day after using glyphospate, where as paraquat leave few days. the other products seem to be used in the make up of the glyphosate. found this in google about one of the contents. i was BACIS qualified ( means years at uni) to advise on use of both products in in UK so would say its ok to use for what your using for. i certainly use it around my house. problem as differnt strenghts of glyphophate so weaker the contents in the bottle the more you have to use. if the plants die your using enough if they dont it needs to be stronger thats the way i work with it. hope that helps but i would have no concerns

Chemical feedstockGlycine is an intermediate in the synthesis of a variety of chemical products. It is used in the manufacture of the herbicide glyphosate. Glyphosate is a non-selective systemic herbicide used to kill weeds, especially perennials and broadcast or used in the cut-stump treatment as a forestry herbicide. Initially, glyphosate was sold only by Monsanto under the tradename Roundup, but is no longer under patent.

Glyphosate is still in use extensively in the Canadian forestry industry as Vision. I put myself through university spraying and mixing the stuff.

[Atmos]

Watch this space - vacant property adjoining ours is being sprayed this morning, man and woman, no masks/gloves etc.

Whatever they're spraying, it stinks.

So I'm inside the house with every window closed.

Will post some progress pics in a few days.

Couple of pics from cellphone attached.

****

and - just noticed this is in Samui forum, there's some good info here, more useful maybe in Farming?

[Atmos]

as above after 7 days.

[samuijimmy]

as above after 7 days.

Classic way not to do when seeds ready to pop... the cycle starts again much faster!

Round Up / Glyphospate really does not have a smell, so lord knows what they added to it, but had it been Gramoxone, it would have turned brown much faster... (That does smell! )....

To Nocturn's comment, about used by the Canadian forestry industry ... not only forestry but just about all farming Canada and else where.around the world...

It's the big controversy over genetically produced farm crops, that are made to be resistant to Glyphoshate.... Wheat, Corn... the list probably goes on and on....

Edited August 31, 2011 by samuijimmy