English For Thailand

[mijan24]

There are many posts about teaching in Thailand and apart from IJWT most (not all) fail to separate TEFL and The other subjects (Science, History etc).

One gentleman I once had the privilige to work for often said "don't bring me a problem without a suggested (possible) solution".

IJWT and KK (and others) have posted on the possibility of a "Tier system" with regard to qualifications - Bangkok versus Non Bangkok.

I have endeavoured several times in the past to promote discussion in order to frame suggested (possible) solutions to the English for Thailand Problem. This is your opportunity to post the goods & the not so good possibilites.

Maybe KK as a mod or one of the Admins (ha ha Dr P nearly limited the Admin populace again) could create an area where after editing the possibilites could be summarised and then pinned or even (dread the thought) forwarded to an authority for consideration.

Lets roll the dice and see if all those educators and interested parties (come on guys & gals0 (farang & Thai) put your thinking caps on and provide some meaningful input or "forever hold your piece(sic)(no tipping please)

[PeaceBlondie]

mijan, I'm not sure what you want. We could all wax eloquently for countless words of how to solve problems with the overall educational system in Thailand, all to no avail. This may be a pessimistic view, but which sub-minister of education reads our posts and changes his positions based upon our views? Even in local settings, how many school directors listen to our views? We're not in charge of much.

The idea of bringing a problem to the attention of your supervisor, along with a proposed solution, doesn't apply to Thailand, where there are no problems., and the national anthem is "MAI BPEN RAI."

[mijan24]

mijan, I'm not sure what you want.  We could all wax eloquently for countless words of how to solve problems with the overall educational system in Thailand, all to no avail.  This may be a pessimistic view, but which sub-minister of education reads our posts and changes his positions based upon our views?  Even in local settings, how many school directors listen to our views?  We're not in charge of much.

The idea of bringing a problem to the attention of your supervisor, along with a proposed solution, doesn't apply to Thailand, where there are no problems., and the national anthem is "MAI BPEN RAI."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

PB - the question is not what do i want - but what does Thailand want to make the English education system workable.

Yes the superior/subordinate realtionship is different to other countries - that doesn't mean there is not a means to an end.

The ball is in "your" the TV posters court. If the answer is silence - so be it - You can take a horse to water you can't make it drink!

Edited October 22, 2005 by mijan24

[richard10365]

My one humble suggestion is to teach them how to read first before you teach them any conversational english or grammer. Spend at least a month or two mastering the sounds of vowels and consonants and how they form words in the English language. After you finish the reading part, move on to speaking.

[chownah]

Oh that life would be so sweet that a few teachers could sit down and put their minds together and agree on what is needed for efficient education....of anybody...anywhere in the world...any subject.

You're dreaming!

[mijan24]

Oh that life would be so sweet that a few teachers could sit down and put their minds together and agree on what is needed for efficient education....of anybody...anywhere in the world...any subject.

You're dreaming!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No worries Chownah it's early days yet and I am sure there will be some "educators or interested parties" concerned enough about Thailand to offer some productive input.

Suprising as it may seem the term "educators" in this post includes teachers + parents +++++ and of course don't be shy - if you don't feel you fall into the former then post as an interested party.

Edited October 22, 2005 by mijan24

[kenkannif]

My one humble suggestion is to teach them how to read first before you teach them any conversational english or grammer. Spend at least a month or two mastering the sounds of vowels and consonants and how they form words in the English language. After you finish the reading part, move on to speaking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Err mate if you're teaching them to read where do the 'sounds' come into it???

[Ijustwannateach]

Err... I think the "space" in which things can be created, tallied, expounded upon, and relisted is called a "thread," Mijan- and you've made one right here, no need for extra mod action!

Once again, I don't know how much experience you have on Internet forums, but it doesn't generally influence people to post when you imply that silence means they're incompetent or apathetic or losers or not right somehow. People post because they *want* to post- either something they have to say or a reaction to someone else. If they don't post much in response to your posts, that usually implies a lack of interest in the topic as presented. Change the topic, or change the presentation, and try again (in this case it's the presentation that I think suffers).

On the thread topic itself, I think that the TEFL market suffers from an artificially high supply (erstwhile "teachers" that simply desperately want some way to stay in Thailand) while the non-TEFL subject suffers from a correspondingly low supply (as the subject specialities are rarer even in a normally distributed population, and especially at the high school level here are too hard for most impostors to survive long).

One should predict that as time passes and the impostors are weeded out (which does take some time) one will see a corresponding diversion between the salaries of TEFLers and the salaries of other subject teachers. This process has already started, but I don't think the market reflects the actual extremities involved yet (wait until umpteen dozen EP programs are all looking for M6 calculus teachers- in English).

This will happen more through market forces than anything else, as the Thai system has shown it is entirely unequal to the task of centrally managing qualifications and salaries.

"Steven"

Edited October 25, 2005 by Ijustwannateach

[Rhys]

English for Thailand...hmmmm ... start with integrated remedial tutorials.. a good start.. next, for class controls.... a electric zapper for the sleepers, the ya dom inhalers, and the talkers, while you are lecturing.. Lastly, a load of.... for the administrators who believe in the high tech low touch response to teaching language.. FACE to FACE is nice.. but not with a screen..

[mijan24]

Oh that life would be so sweet that a few teachers could sit down and put their minds together and agree on what is needed for efficient education....of anybody...anywhere in the world...any subject.

You're dreaming!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chownah it looks as if you hit it right on the button!!

IJWT if you believe that any of the following:

#This is your opportunity to post the goods & the not so good possibilites.

#put your thinking caps on and provide some meaningful input or "forever hold your piece(sic)(no tipping please

#The ball is in "your" the TV posters court. If the answer is silence - so be it - You can take a horse to water you can't make it drink!

implies - incompetence, or losers.

You my friend (sic) are a lost soul and certainly don't live up to your "nic". I think there was an old remedy for SOL - yes 1 or 2 tablespoons of cod liver or castor oil.

Apathy is everywhere but can be overcome by pressing the correct motivational buttons - If only we could play that tune "Bolero" which in itself has many meaningful messages - only forthcoming when the clip is viewed too.

[carlthailand]

Well for starters, how about the Thai English teachers. They should be able to read, write and do the grammar properly. Sick of kids being taught the wrong way.

Nice idea but with the system they have here I can't honestly see too much happening. It will take as long as the airport was to be built. That was what 30-40years.

C

[richard10365]

My one humble suggestion is to teach them how to read first before you teach them any conversational english or grammer. Spend at least a month or two mastering the sounds of vowels and consonants and how they form words in the English language. After you finish the reading part, move on to speaking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Err mate if you're teaching them to read where do the 'sounds' come into it???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Ken,....I should have added using equivalent or close to sounds of the Thai alphabet.

[Ladphrao]

What makes anyone think foreign teachers in Thailand have the answers to this "problem"? I know of very few English teachers in Thailand that have mastered a foreign language, but somehow they are experts on mastering languages. The Japanese have a hard learning English too, just like American, Brits and Aussies have trouble learning foreign languages. Some people pick it up easily (Lucky bstards) and others of us struggle after years of trying. It is complex, and we all know people learn in different ways and have different motivations to learn. I have no problem with foreigner teachers working within the system to try to make it better, but simple answers to the complex problem of how to learn a foreign language, mostly from those who haven't mastered a foreign language themselves, isn't going to be of much use.

Frankly, this is something that is really better left to the experts and researchers in the field who have studied previous research on language learning and understand language learning theories.

Just because one is a brick-layer (even a good one) does not make one an expert on how to make the best bricks. Just because one is an English teacher (even a good one) does not make one an expert on designing language learning programs for an entire country. If there was really an easy answer, don’t you think it would be in use now?

Just my satang and a half worth, this isn’t even worth two satang

Edited November 1, 2005 by Ladphrao

[fxm88]

My one humble suggestion is to teach them how to read first before you teach them any conversational english or grammer. Spend at least a month or two mastering the sounds of vowels and consonants and how they form words in the English language. After you finish the reading part, move on to speaking.

This is very good advice for students or babies or anyone. I taught my son using this method and it came as no surprise that his first spoken word was "ambidextrous". On the minus side he didn't speak another word until he was 17.

[richard10365]

What makes anyone think foreign teachers in Thailand have the answers to this "problem"? I know of very few English teachers in Thailand that have mastered a foreign language, but somehow they are experts on mastering languages. The Japanese have a hard learning English too, just like American, Brits and Aussies have trouble learning foreign languages. Some people pick it up easily (Lucky bstards) and others of us struggle after years of trying. It is complex, and we all know people learn in different ways and have different motivations to learn. I have no problem with foreigner teachers working within the system to try to make it better, but simple answers to the complex problem of how to learn a foreign language, mostly from those who haven't mastered a foreign language themselves, isn't going to be of much use.

Frankly, this is something that is really better left to the experts and researchers in the field who have studied previous research on language learning and understand language learning theories.

Just because one is a brick-layer (even a good one) does not make one an expert on how to make the best bricks. Just because one is an English teacher (even a good one) does not make one an expert on designing language learning programs for an entire country. If there was really an easy answer, don’t you think it would be in use now?

Just my satang and a half worth, this isn’t even worth two satang

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with parts of your aurgument that experts are needed to research language,however; your implications that teachers shouldn't try to come up with the answers themselves is somewhat narrowminded.

A teacher who dosen't try to find ways to teach better is probably not a good teacher.

When a foreign teachers starts teaching in Thailand, they probably have assumptions about how to teach. Some things work and other things don't.

Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, the teachers ask other more expierenced English teachers what to do.

If teachers aren't around, some reley on forums for ideas to improve their teaching skills.

In the army, generals sometimes ask the soldier in the foxhole their opinion on the battle. Front line troops have first hand knowledge on how equipment and strategies are working in a war zone.

Foreign English teachers are the front line troops in battle to learn English in Thailand. They have knowledge of what works and what dosen't.

Foreign English teachers opinions are important and do matter.

Thats why I think foreign English teachers in Thailand have the answer to this problem.

The real problem is, no one listens to them.

[Ladphrao]

richard10365

No argument with the gist of what you said. I agree input from teachers is important, but teachers, especially foreigners teacher, generally see things from a very narrow single perspective.

Teachers are responsible for "solving" the English language problems in their classrooms, but that is a very different thing than running the educational system for the entire nation.

"A teacher who dosen't try to find ways to teach better is probably not a good teacher."

Totally agree, but there is a big difference between trying to improve as a teacher and finding someone to blame for your students not learning.

It is human nature for people to take credit for their successes and blame others for their failures. Teachers for the most part are very typical in this respect.

When students learn, most teachers think they have had something to do with it.

When students fail to learn, it is never the teachers fault, but the fault of the "system" or the students, or for the least imaginative teachers they just blame it on "Thai culture."

Being an ex-military man, I understand your example, but it doesn't really matter what occupation you are in, those doing the work always think they know more about what is going on than those at the top. Privates in the Army always think they know how to run the Army better than the generals do, voters always know how to run a country better than the politicians do, factory workers know how to run a company better than the bosses do, and teachers know how to run an educational system better than those in charge do.

However, those at the top have to balance the needs of many conflicting forces, while those of us at the bottom are only worried about what we see. Those running the educational system have to worry about costs, parental perceptions, teachers of other subjects, government agencies, and countless other things we can conveniently ignore when making our suggestions. For example, We can say, we should be given more money if we have more qualification without having to worry about whether Thai parents are willing to pay higher tuition fees for these qualifications. Most English teachers are solely focused on teaching English, but a case could be made that not everyone in the country really needs to know English.

It is ok for a teacher to make suggestions about improvements in the system, but just because these suggestions are not taken up does not mean the administrators are stupid. How many teachers do even an informal cost-benefit analysis while making suggestions? Many suggestions come off to the administrators as being more concerned with the teacher's benefit than with the students', the schools' or the benefit of the country we are working in.

Teachers should focus more on working within the system rather than working to change the system which is in place for a reason; although it is often difficult to see the reason when one is seeing things from a narrow perspective.

Ah, forget all of that, it really is easier to blame others.

The reason any teacher in Thailand is not completely happy and successful in Thailand is because of "them" out there that don’t know anything. If only foreign English teachers were put in charge of the system, all problems would be solved and we would live happily ever after. Is this last part more like it?

[Ijustwannateach]

^One might ask the same questions regarding the competency of said ex-military man to have opinions about either teachers or school administrators. Once one's occupation invalidates the ability of one to have a good, educated opinion on a topic close to him, the same kind of logic can be applied ad nauseum with no logical escape.

What you say about the needs of school administrators to juggle many factors is a good, if fairly obvious, point which actually does not escape most teachers. It is our struggle, if anything to LOBBY for the needs of education (which are, after all, theoretically the point of the whole exercise, unless it's babysitting) when put against those other needs. Granted, the budgets for schools are so small that it's robbing Peter to pay Paul (and it shouldn't be that to have textbooks means no janitorial services) but it's not always a lost cause to put your case before the PARENTS (without making it a case against the administration, of course) that there is a need for such-and-such a thing, and letting them run with it. Since the parents are also theoretically seeking education for their kids, it can't hurt to have them lobbying for you.

And finally, the blame game has a bad rap these days, because sometimes it is necessary for improvement or reform to blame someone for poor performance. So little of this takes place in Thailand because of face issues... I wonder how many have suffered as a result. Power and responsibility are supposed to come together. I suppose in the military when someone royally ****ed up he wasn't disciplined, then?

"Steven"

[ben01]

Tell you what, why dont you help the starving in Africa aswell....and the dismembered in Cambodia............and......

[richard10365]

Ladphrao, my orginal comments concern improving the quality of teaching and not the politics of teaching.

You don't teach someone algebra before you teach them addition and subtraction.

I think teaching kids how to read English properly during the Prathom years will solve many problems when they reach the Matayom years.

Your orginal comments seemed more of an attack on competency of Foreign English teachers to have any type of valuable opinion when it comes to teaching English.

If they could read, I think most of the older kids would be talking English and there wouldn't be an English problem.

[mijan24]

IJWT - Possibily a little off topic but why do you question the:

#competency of said ex-military man to have opinions about either teachers or school administrators.

If for some reason you believe that being ex-military - invalidates the ability of one to have a good, educated opinion on an educational topic then you are obviously ignorant of the occupation streams available in the Military.

I have no idea of Ladphraos employment discipline and to be honest I don't care as this thread is looking for comment/input from anyone and everyone. The more the merrier.

richard10365I think teaching kids how to read English properly during the Prathom years will solve many problems when they reach the Matayom years. No argument but what about augumenting this with simple conversation.

ladphrao"A teacher who dosen't try to find ways to teach better is probably not a good teacher." Totally agree, but there is a big difference between trying to improve as a teacher and finding someone to blame for your students not learning. So So True

When students fail to learn, it is never the teachers fault, but the fault of the "system" or the students, or for the least imaginative teachers they just blame it on "Thai culture."

We often read teachers posting " All they want (the students) is for us to play fun games.

I would ask is this so bad?? and before you answer think of the TV programmes in your home country - eg. Australia "Play School" Some character up there singing - Head and shoulders, Knees and toes - illustrating as each is mentioned - Anyone who does not believe this is part of the leaning cycle needs to rethink

The majority of Thai students do not have the benefit of this medium - English TV as a home learning tool so lets stop blaming the system and think about improving the outcome.

Now a bold statement - my limited experience shows - Thais warm to learning in the right environment - !!!

M24 Saying something positive about Thais you must be troppo

Its six of the best for you - Thats it you can't even count Can so to but an ex-military guy once told me always have one in reserve.

[Ijustwannateach]

Gee, just look at all these low-post count people with plenty controversial to say here today... you don't think they might be....

Mijan, you should probably stay out of arguments when they're not in your native language. You missed the point entirely. Use your finger to keep your place when you're reading.

[mijan24]

Gee, just look at all these low-post count people with plenty controversial to say here today... you don't think they might be....  

Mijan, you should probably stay out of arguments when they're not in your native language.  You missed the point entirely.  Use your finger to keep your place when you're reading.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IJWT you poor lost soul - Please indicate the post where you last made a positive comment about a topic or TV member.

IJWT your last post homed in on your favourite topic "peoples with low post counts" Of course you could not resist having a shot - No probs but being the expert on forums try to stay on topic or resist the temptation to post until after you clear up that bad case of SOL you so obviously suffer from.

About the language matey - no worries - not sure about the origins of Richard or Lad but happy to stay away from your american version of the Kings own.

Quote "I may well be a jackass, but you are at least as much one." Endquote - I rest my case

Edited November 1, 2005 by mijan24

[Ijustwannateach]

Ah, and once again someone who's not bitter at all waits and waits to drag in something I said long ago in another context on another thread... very bold.

Mijan, you wouldn't happen to be an incompetent Pakistani gentleman of my acquaintance, would you?

"Steven"

[Ladphrao]

Seems like I have stirred up a few people, I guess that’s not all bad.

I'm not sure what my being an ex-military guy has to do with the points I made. I would like to think my thoughts and opinions can stand up on their own. In academia, we have blind peer reviews of article so that it is the ideas being judged and not the individual advocating the ideas.

But if one needs to know, I am not an English teacher but I have in the past made my living solely teaching English and I have also done it is a supplement to my income from time to time.

I would like to think my perspective is of one who is familiar with English teaching in LOS, but not an expert, however I also am able to take a more objective view as I have no dog in any fight about English teaching in this or any other country.

I am also not sure what having a low post count has to do with anything, does it mean that some of us that use internet forums as an occasional outlet have less important ideas than those whose lives are centered around these forums?

Anyway, one of the interesting things I found out while doing some research for an article on job satisfaction in the workplace, was that study after study showed that employers and environmental conditions have little to do with job satisfaction. For example, pilots in WW II who were flying escort duty in the North Atlantic were found to have very high levels of job satisfaction. Although, they were doing a very dangerous job in near freezing temperature, with long hours, no chance of any social life, 7 days a week work schedule and so on.

On the other hand, all of us have heard of pro athletes or famous musicians or actors complain about their working conditions even when the conditions they work in are the envy of 99.8% of the world's population.

The studies show, that instead of the external environment having a major factor in job satisfaction, it is the maturity level of the individual. More mature people show generally higher levels of job satisfaction than immature ones. Happiness on the job truly does come from within, not from someone else, and the studies confirm this.

For any of us who have been here in Thailand for years, we have seen dramatic changes in the English teaching situation in the country. There are far more options for an English teacher to work than in years gone by, the wages are generally a little bit higher, working conditions are generally a little bit better and so on. However, many of the old-timers who were here in years gone by who used to constantly complain about the old conditions are still here and still complaining about the new conditions. Chances are the English teaching situation in Thailand will continue to grow and change, but whatever direction it takes I am sure that the majority of those complaining today, if they are still around, will complain about the new conditions in the future, regardless of what those conditions will be liked. Unhappiness with one's job tells more about the person who is unhappy than about the job, at least that is what the research shows.

richard10365

"Your orginal comments seemed more of an attack on competency of Foreign English teachers to have any type of valuable opinion when it comes to teaching English. "

Not at all, it was that English teachers are typical of employees. Not worse and not better than others in other jobs.

Q. What do Secretaries do after work or on their free time?

A. Complain about their bosses

Q. What do construction workers do after work and on their free time?

A. Complain about their bosses

Q. What do soldiers do after work and on their free time?

A. Complain about their bosses

Q. What do factory workers do after work and on their free time?

A. Complain about their bosses

Q. What do English teachers do after work and on their free time?

A.?

As far as being involved in actual teaching techniques, sure a teachers input is important. But aren't teachers generally given a lot of freedom to teach in the style they want to in the classroom? (I have in all of my teaching jobs?) True, we can’t control the quality of the incoming students and have to work with what we have, but from what I have seen no one much tells teachers how to do their jobs, so what is the big "problem" it is being proposed to solve if it is not changing the system?

[mijan24]

Ah, and once again someone who's not bitter at all waits and waits to drag in something I said long ago in another context on another thread... very bold.

Mijan, you wouldn't happen to be an incompetent Pakistani gentleman of my acquaintance, would you?

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IJTW - Yes, from another thread - just shows I am well read and have a good memory - - competent or incompetent rating depends upon the competencency of the assessor.

IJWT - No, does your Pakistani aquaintaince come from Australia too?

You failed to answer the question on "last positive post", surely you could assist the thread by adding some content instead of just "cheep" shots @ us (me & IPG) lower food chain types.

[richard10365]

Maybe I misunderstood the topic of this thread,....would someone give me their interpretation of what the OP is trying to say?

From the responses I am reading, either I am way off in left field or someone else is.

[Ladphrao]

the "English for Thailand Problem" was never defined and there was never any evidence presented that there was a problem.

The main point I was trying to make was to question the obvious underlying assumptions of the points that were made, which are there is a serious problem in Thailand about learning English and Teachers (white ones) know how to fix the problem that those in charge (Thais) don't know.

Is the "problem" mainly in the environment or in the minds and perceptions of the foreign teachers?

Sure, the Englsh teaching system in Thailand could be improved, is there any system in the world that is perfect?

But before one addresses a problem, it is helpful to understand the pespective one has and to realize it is not the only one.

The assumptions in the initial post were my concerns.

In some ways, the initial post came off as nothing more than an invitation for those who don't like teaching in Thailand to express their grievances, but there is an entire internet forum (ajarn.com) that is solely devoted to whining teachers (At least that was all that was there the last time I checked it out) and I thought the level of discussion would be a little higher here (maybe not).

If one has to accept the initial underlying assumptions and position of the original poster to respond, than yes my posts shouldn't be here questioning whether these underlying assumptions and positions are in fact true.

[chownah]

Oh that life would be so sweet that a few teachers could sit down and put their minds together and agree on what is needed for efficient education....of anybody...anywhere in the world...any subject.

You're dreaming!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok: "whining teachers" remark + low post count- marks LP as a troll; I was waiting for something like that. Fellow users, please ignore.

Edited November 2, 2005 by Ijustwannateach

[Ijustwannateach]

P.S. Actually, Mijan, I have no idea where the Pakistani gentleman most recently lived before Thailand. It could have been Australia.

And I wasn't aware that I was supposed to fill a "compliment quota" of some sort. Last I recall, I complimented Moog's father-in-law's artwork in the Bedlam forum earlier this week. Happy now?