South African Family's Phuket Holiday Nightmare

[BOS2BKK]

This story smells fishy. Why would anyone exchange their cash at a travel agency instead of a bank? Why would you bring US Dollars to Thailand instead of Thai Baht? It just doesn't make sense...

There is nothing fishy about this. Alot of African currencies fluctuate in value too much. Many cash exchange places refuse to deal with them. For the same reason the currency of Choice in Zimbabwe, Sudan, Cambodia etc is US Dollars, they are one of a few reliable currencies used in travel. It is not at all uncommon for a South African, Russian, Brazilian, to change his local paper which may or may not be accepted, into Dollars, which he knows will be accepted in any country he travels.

Also it not being his home currency, it is perfectly plausible that he may have even been given one or two high end counterfeits during his transfer. There are plenty of counterfeits out there that are virtually indistinguishable from real bills...unless you have the warnings with the fake serial numbers, like a cash exchange place would have. Scam wise, taking it to the next level, it would not be impossible for the exchange service to have a few fakes tucked under the drawer to swap out when the opportunity to sham a rich guy presents. Just like the vendor selling the Ganjha pipes on Patong always has a dime bag handy to sell you, and a cop buddy handy to signal too. As for the changing of money at the travel agent, it was probably viewed as a convenience provided by a full service travel agency, rather than a fishy move of some sort.

Rule of thumb in any foreign country. Whenever I cash in Gold coins (I always keep a stash for emergencies, and the current gold price has led me to cash them in) or a large sum of money, I always have a local do it for me. It is worth it to drop a couple hundred baht tip to some waiter or hotel maintenance man. Often they will know someplace off the street that give a better exchange rate, and you may make out. Of course the best way is to avoid the situation altogether, take the hit and just use ATM's. Yeah they have the ridiculous charge, but hey...vacations cost money. If you are sweating a 150 baht bank fee, then you probably can't afford to be on Holiday anyway.

I totally agree with your last point about using an ATM! As for the rest it's all about luck and timing...

Unfortunately there are quite a few countries out there that don't have access to internationally accepted plastic. It's a real burden. I work with alot of people from a number of countries and I am constantly having to use my credit card for them and taking the cash. Most of the non industrialized world still runs on cash in hand.

It's tough dealing with foreign currencies too. I spent a good deal of time in Sudan where US hundreds are the currency of choice. I was constantly refusing counterfeits when drawing money from local bank. All the bank did was put them back in the cash drawer for the next schlub who maybe didn't notice. I have grown up with the feel, look, and weight of US currency, and on some of them even I wasn't sure. It is not at all implausible that someone like this guy picked up a few fakes when changing his money. There are some estimates out there that as many as 1% of US hundreds, and 2% of Euro Bin Laden's are counterfeit. This ranges from badly done laser printer jobs to fakes so good the only way to spot them is to check serial numbers against known print runs. Even the US treasury admits there are "super dollar" fakes out there that are essentially indistinguishable from real money.

All this is of course predicated on the idea that he actually changed fake money. My point is, even if he did, the guy deserves the benefit of the doubt. Even in the US if you try to pass a counterfeit bill or two when changing money all that happens is they confiscate the bill and record your ID, on the assumption that you were likely unaware it was fake...do it more than now and then and I am sure you will get a knock on your door...

As for some of the above postings about exchange rates...I feel your pain. I too arrived in Thailand when the Baht was 46. Life moves on. If you are taking advantage of your holiday funds to try and make out a few hundred dollars on currency speculation then again I wager you can't really afford your holiday to begin with. While it is certainly something we frequent travelers pay attention too, merry makers are subject to the whim of lady luck when it comes to exchange rates.

I have lived in many countries over many years and traveled extensively. My one lesson is...you are going to lose a little money when you change currencies, whether it be fees or rates... Now and then you will luck into a positive rate, but more often than not you will lose. Just accept it as an expense of traveling and do everything in yoru power to be safe and sound on your trip. This includes using plastic as much as humanly possible, and if you must deal with cash, break it up. Use different cash counters. Figure out what the optimal exchange amount/fee ratio is and change only that amount. Changing a large sum at one time may seem more convenient put it also tells any number of minimum wage employees and maybe their friends or immediate family, and any nearby people, and their immediate family and acquaintances that you are cash heavy. Just because the girl at the counter is sweet doesn't mean her boyfriend is. Also remember "not alot of money" is a very relative term. Changing $1000 to pay a hotel bill may not seem like a big deal, but it might be 6 months wages to the person collecting bottles from the trash bin ten feet away. Temptation takes many forms. When on holiday, in any country, be alert, be discreet, and be safe by being the man who doesn't stand out.

[bangkokbruce]

Here recently I'm hearing alot of nightmare holidays coming out of Phuket. Tuk tuk and taxi scams, jet ski scams, timeshare scams, suspicious deaths, and the indian goons trying to get you to try their indian curry. I prefer Danang and Nha Trang in Viet Nam. The Thai's greed in Phuket are in a hurry screwing up the tourism unfortunately.

[Jimi007]

LMAO -- I don't think you could be more far from reality.

Hotels are business and they want assurance they are going to be paid for the service they provide and they don't go by looks. If there are hotels in Thailand that allow guests to stay for a day, let alone a month, without payment or assurance of payment they are very very few and far between.

Bangkok, Trang, Pattaya, Koh Samat, Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Korat.

Hotels and guest houses have never asked me for anything in advance (staying 1 night, 1 week, 1 month).

I had thought this was normal practice for all customers in Thailand (never left ID at desk either).

Apparently not, you have found it to be different, which I am going to assume says more about YOU and ME, than about the various hotels business plan.

I would have to say you're wrong and you know what they say about assume? With very few exceptions, if they don not take a credit card, they will want payment up front and many with a damage deposit as well. All hotel are required to write your name, country and passport number on a form, but I've never had one try to hold my passport.

[Jimi007]

This story smells fishy. Why would anyone exchange their cash at a travel agency instead of a bank? Why would you bring US Dollars to Thailand instead of Thai Baht? It just doesn't make sense...

There is nothing fishy about this. Alot of African currencies fluctuate in value too much. Many cash exchange places refuse to deal with them. For the same reason the currency of Choice in Zimbabwe, Sudan, Cambodia etc is US Dollars, they are one of a few reliable currencies used in travel. It is not at all uncommon for a South African, Russian, Brazilian, to change his local paper which may or may not be accepted, into Dollars, which he knows will be accepted in any country he travels.

Also it not being his home currency, it is perfectly plausible that he may have even been given one or two high end counterfeits during his transfer. There are plenty of counterfeits out there that are virtually indistinguishable from real bills...unless you have the warnings with the fake serial numbers, like a cash exchange place would have. Scam wise, taking it to the next level, it would not be impossible for the exchange service to have a few fakes tucked under the drawer to swap out when the opportunity to sham a rich guy presents. Just like the vendor selling the Ganjha pipes on Patong always has a dime bag handy to sell you, and a cop buddy handy to signal too. As for the changing of money at the travel agent, it was probably viewed as a convenience provided by a full service travel agency, rather than a fishy move of some sort.

Rule of thumb in any foreign country. Whenever I cash in Gold coins (I always keep a stash for emergencies, and the current gold price has led me to cash them in) or a large sum of money, I always have a local do it for me. It is worth it to drop a couple hundred baht tip to some waiter or hotel maintenance man. Often they will know someplace off the street that give a better exchange rate, and you may make out. Of course the best way is to avoid the situation altogether, take the hit and just use ATM's. Yeah they have the ridiculous charge, but hey...vacations cost money. If you are sweating a 150 baht bank fee, then you probably can't afford to be on Holiday anyway.

I totally agree with your last point about using an ATM! As for the rest it's all about luck and timing...

Unfortunately there are quite a few countries out there that don't have access to internationally accepted plastic. It's a real burden. I work with alot of people from a number of countries and I am constantly having to use my credit card for them and taking the cash. Most of the non industrialized world still runs on cash in hand.

It's tough dealing with foreign currencies too. I spent a good deal of time in Sudan where US hundreds are the currency of choice. I was constantly refusing counterfeits when drawing money from local bank. All the bank did was put them back in the cash drawer for the next schlub who maybe didn't notice. I have grown up with the feel, look, and weight of US currency, and on some of them even I wasn't sure. It is not at all implausible that someone like this guy picked up a few fakes when changing his money. There are some estimates out there that as many as 1% of US hundreds, and 2% of Euro Bin Laden's are counterfeit. This ranges from badly done laser printer jobs to fakes so good the only way to spot them is to check serial numbers against known print runs. Even the US treasury admits there are "super dollar" fakes out there that are essentially indistinguishable from real money.

All this is of course predicated on the idea that he actually changed fake money. My point is, even if he did, the guy deserves the benefit of the doubt. Even in the US if you try to pass a counterfeit bill or two when changing money all that happens is they confiscate the bill and record your ID, on the assumption that you were likely unaware it was fake...do it more than now and then and I am sure you will get a knock on your door...

As for some of the above postings about exchange rates...I feel your pain. I too arrived in Thailand when the Baht was 46. Life moves on. If you are taking advantage of your holiday funds to try and make out a few hundred dollars on currency speculation then again I wager you can't really afford your holiday to begin with. While it is certainly something we frequent travelers pay attention too, merry makers are subject to the whim of lady luck when it comes to exchange rates.

I have lived in many countries over many years and traveled extensively. My one lesson is...you are going to lose a little money when you change currencies, whether it be fees or rates... Now and then you will luck into a positive rate, but more often than not you will lose. Just accept it as an expense of traveling and do everything in yoru power to be safe and sound on your trip. This includes using plastic as much as humanly possible, and if you must deal with cash, break it up. Use different cash counters. Figure out what the optimal exchange amount/fee ratio is and change only that amount. Changing a large sum at one time may seem more convenient put it also tells any number of minimum wage employees and maybe their friends or immediate family, and any nearby people, and their immediate family and acquaintances that you are cash heavy. Just because the girl at the counter is sweet doesn't mean her boyfriend is. Also remember "not alot of money" is a very relative term. Changing $1000 to pay a hotel bill may not seem like a big deal, but it might be 6 months wages to the person collecting bottles from the trash bin ten feet away. Temptation takes many forms. When on holiday, in any country, be alert, be discreet, and be safe by being the man who doesn't stand out.

I agree. Good post! But we are talking about Phuket, which accepts plastic. According to the article it's how he paid off the police and lawyer, who probably took the bulk of the money.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Jimi007

[DGS1244]

Surely if he is staying at a 5-Star Hotel then the hotel would normally accept US Dollars anyway, maybe at not too good exchange rate. Seems there is more to this than we know.

[mikechudej]

Thai Bank won't exchange South African Rand. There are only a few places in Thailand that would accept Rand mostly the travel agency. This might be the same case in South Africa. Most countries accept US dollars and this is what many tourists do exchange their currency into US dollar (notes, traveler cheques, etc.).

[Jimi007]

Surely if he is staying at a 5-Star Hotel then the hotel would normally accept US Dollars anyway, maybe at not too good exchange rate. Seems there is more to this than we know.

I agree! But no, businesses don't take US Dollars here in Phuket. But they probably would taken his credit card!

Edited October 2, 2011 by Jimi007

[ParadiseLost]

This topic seems to be going round and round in circles, on one side 'experts' on everything and anything to do with Phuket, Thailand and currency exchange; hell bent on trying and convicting a man accused of exchanging $1000 in counterfeit money. No evidence supports this, and if it was such open and shut case WHY WAS HE ALLOWED TO LEAVE?

On the other side most people are saying the same: in this, one of the most notorious countries for corruption in the world a man landed up getting his bank accounts emptied of 700,000 baht for a crime involving 30,000 baht...

Who cares if he was naive, or just plain dumb? The question is why presume he is guilty? Do you guys have nothing better to do? Do you think he deserved what he got - no day in court, no official fine or sentence, no support from his embassy and condemnation from armchair warriors who actually know very little about international banking, exchange or for that matter anything else.

Here's hoping nothing similar happens to you, the shock will surely kill you and I am sure you will be shouting foul at all and sundry for not helping you...

And just my final point, there is no official exchange rate between ZAR and THB - a cross rate is always used based on USD. This is the same for all currencies outside of those pegged to USD.

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post has been removed.

[Jimi007]

This topic seems to be going round and round in circles, on one side 'experts' on everything and anything to do with Phuket, Thailand and currency exchange; hell bent on trying and convicting a man accused of exchanging $1000 in counterfeit money. No evidence supports this, and if it was such open and shut case WHY WAS HE ALLOWED TO LEAVE?

On the other side most people are saying the same: in this, one of the most notorious countries for corruption in the world a man landed up getting his bank accounts emptied of 700,000 baht for a crime involving 30,000 baht...

Who cares if he was naive, or just plain dumb? The question is why presume he is guilty? Do you guys have nothing better to do? Do you think he deserved what he got - no day in court, no official fine or sentence, no support from his embassy and condemnation from armchair warriors who actually know very little about international banking, exchange or for that matter anything else.

Here's hoping nothing similar happens to you, the shock will surely kill you and I am sure you will be shouting foul at all and sundry for not helping you...

And just my final point, there is no official exchange rate between ZAR and THB - a cross rate is always used based on USD. This is the same for all currencies outside of those pegged to USD.

Whatever... I get tired of all the Phuket bashing and Thai bashing in general. So, now I get bashed for questioning a story that isn't backed up by any facts or any other source!

[Richard4849]

The question is why presume he is guilty?

No, the question is "why presume he is innocent?"

[ludditeman]

The question is why presume he is guilty?

No, the question is "why presume he is innocent?"

Off topic

One of the questions Thais always ask me , why do white people appear to hate each other (especially some posting on expat forums).

The answer I have to give is, it's not all white people, merely some living long term in Thailand.

Whatever drove them out of their home countries damaged some of those people mentally, beyond hope of recovery and they have become instinctive 'haters'.

I may be wrong and an alternative view could be that these people were sociopaths to start off with.

On topic

Because the western system of justice has a 'presumption of innocence' built into it.

Edited October 2, 2011 by ludditeman

[Netfan]

The question is why presume he is guilty?

No, the question is "why presume he is innocent?"

Oh, let's see. A man on holiday with his family. He had been exchanging dollars from the same lot all over and never had a problem before. The BiB and Phuket vendors of all kinds are known to be corrupt cheating, lying thieves.

So yes, why presume he is innocent?

[TAWP]

While still in the cell a police officer brought a statement written in Thai for Sequeira to sign. He refused as he didn’t understand the document. But a New Zealander introduced to him as a tourism police officer and one of the few officials who could speak English, told him it was safe to sign the document as it was “just a formality”

Anyone been able to ID this New Zealander yet?

Edited October 2, 2011 by TAWP

[Jimi007]

The question is why presume he is guilty?

No, the question is "why presume he is innocent?"

Oh, let's see. A man on holiday with his family. He had been exchanging dollars from the same lot all over and never had a problem before. The BiB and Phuket vendors of all kinds are known to be corrupt cheating, lying thieves.

So yes, why presume he is innocent?

Another Thai basher. Now Thai Banks and Police are out to get honest tourists? Really... All tourist here are just wonderful. Here is one that wasn't: Beach Thief.

[Netfan]

The question is why presume he is guilty?

No, the question is "why presume he is innocent?"

Oh, let's see. A man on holiday with his family. He had been exchanging dollars from the same lot all over and never had a problem before. The BiB and Phuket vendors of all kinds are known to be corrupt cheating, lying thieves.

So yes, why presume he is innocent?

Another Thai basher. Now Thai Banks and Police are out to get honest tourists? Really... All tourist here are just wonderful. Here is one that wasn't: Beach Thief.

And this proves that this South African man in question is guilty? Or that the Thai police department isn't corrupt? Sorry, don't get your point.

[Orac]

Surely if he is staying at a 5-Star Hotel then the hotel would normally accept US Dollars anyway, maybe at not too good exchange rate. Seems there is more to this than we know.

I agree! But no, businesses don't take US Dollars here in Phuket. But they probably would taken his credit card!

I am sure the hotel would take USD but I would be amazed if he got a better exchange rate for them there than at a money exchange over the road.

[DP25]

The question is why presume he is guilty?

No, the question is "why presume he is innocent?"

Oh, let's see. A man on holiday with his family. He had been exchanging dollars from the same lot all over and never had a problem before. The BiB and Phuket vendors of all kinds are known to be corrupt cheating, lying thieves.

So yes, why presume he is innocent?

You're assuming that everything he said is true. Of course if he had fake dollars he's gonna say he changed them everywhere and never had a problem. He's not gonna say he was trying to get rid of his fake dollars in Thailand because he thought they were a soft touch. And maybe he didn't have a problem and other places didn't catch his fake. And he wasn't caught a Phuket vendor, he was caught by a bank that has no reason to randomly accuse him. Millions of tourists change money every year without a problem because they aren't using fake currency.

If this guy were Nigerian instead of a white South African everyone would be assuming that he was guilty. It's also entirely possible that the money was counterfeit and he didn't know that it was. It's a fact that international criminals are distributing counterfeit US dollars in South Africa

[Jimi007]

No, the question is "why presume he is innocent?"

Oh, let's see. A man on holiday with his family. He had been exchanging dollars from the same lot all over and never had a problem before. The BiB and Phuket vendors of all kinds are known to be corrupt cheating, lying thieves.

So yes, why presume he is innocent?

Another Thai basher. Now Thai Banks and Police are out to get honest tourists? Really... All tourist here are just wonderful. Here is one that wasn't: Beach Thief.

And this proves that this South African man in question is guilty? Or that the Thai police department isn't corrupt? Sorry, don't get your point.

The point is, there aren't any facts. There is a one sided story, which most farangs want to believe. Until there are some facts reported and from other sources there isn't enough information to make any kind of judgement. But in the mean time everyone on here is bashing Thais and me for questioning his side of the story. Also that there are tourist here that do break the law...

[frankiebaby]

You gotta carry weapons 'cos you always carry cash! Glen Frey - 'The smugglers blues'.

[SteeleJoe]

Haven't read the thread and may not bother to do so. Moreover, I don't know much about the case ata ll. But I thought I'd mention that in the taxi this morning I heard some Thai commentators discussing it -- I came in at the very end -- and they expressed consternation and pity about the event. They felt it was a real shame that there were Thai police 'doing things like this' (They likened it to a TV drama).

Then an exchange that went like this:

"Tourists are now going to go to Dubai" (don't ask me -- that's what he said)

Another replied, "Escaping from the Tiger and running into a crocodile (a Thai idiom that should be clear -- their version of "Out of the frying pan, into the fire"), they will get worse there! (Dubai)!".

One of his colleagues said "Oh, really?"

And he replied, "Well, everywhere is the same. There are bad cops everywhere. But most are good."

[Richard4849]

The question is why presume he is guilty?

No, the question is "why presume he is innocent?"

Oh, let's see. A man on holiday with his family. He had been exchanging dollars from the same lot all over and never had a problem before. The BiB and Phuket vendors of all kinds are known to be corrupt cheating, lying thieves.

So yes, why presume he is innocent?

"He had been exchanging dollars from the same lot all over and never had a problem before".

Perhaps not all the bills in the lot were bad.

Perhaps the places he had spent them before were not equipped with detection equipment.

Seems there would be a lot more chance of the above than to assume that the bank and the police colluded to pull a scam on a random, hapless traveler who was happily exchanging genuine US dollar notes.

[Netfan]

The point is, there aren't any facts. There is a one sided story, which most farangs want to believe. Until there are some facts reported and from other sources there isn't enough information to make any kind of judgement. But in the mean time everyone on here is bashing Thais and me for questioning his side of the story. Also that there are tourist here that do break the law...

Uh oh, a tourist basher.

Edited October 2, 2011 by metisdead
Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes.

[SteeleJoe]

. But a New Zealander introduced to him as a tourism police officer and one of the few officials who could speak English, told him it was safe to sign the document as it was "just a formality".

Unbeknown to Sequeira, by signing the statement he was acknowledging guilt.

With all due respect to the upright and law abiding Kiwi Tourist Police Volunteer that appears to have lied to the gentleman from South Africa, does anyone else consider this another nail in the coffin of their credibility?

Of the South African's credibility? Yes.

Why does this detrimentally impact the South African's credibility?

[SteeleJoe]

If you do proper research into scams and corruption before visiting Thailand you will never come here...

Unless you are from South Africa

I don't get it...

Perhaps someone can help me out, is this retort childish, or is it childlike - I can never decide when faced with puerile off topic goads?

Hint ... South Africa is generally considered very corrupt too.

Is it? Well, S. Africa ranks 54th out of 178 countries on the 2010 Transparency International Corruption Perception Index (same as Kuwait, slightly better than Malaysia and compared to Thailand's ranking of 78 -- the lower the number the less perceived corruption).

But how is that relevant? Because South Africa is generally considered very corrupt too someone from South Africa would still come here even after doing proper research into scams and corruption before visiting Thailand?

[HerbalEd]

This story smells fishy. Why would anyone exchange their cash at a travel agency instead of a bank? Why would you bring US Dollars to Thailand instead of Thai Baht? It just doesn't make sense...

Are you serious?? You may be willing to buy baht at a very high price outside of Thailand, but smart people bring dollars, Euros, etc., or a debit card, and get a much better exchange rate.

[SteeleJoe]

They were about to check out of their hotel when Sequeira crossed the road to exchange $1 000 (R7 800) at the bank in order to settle his hotel bill.

Every time I have paid in cash for a hotel in Thailand, I needed to pay up front.

Same with me, if you can't give them plastic they want the accommodation charge up front as well as a bond. With good reason. I know it's a generalisation, but people who pay cash for everything usually have something to hide. Does he wander around J'burg with loads of folding?

It's been said here many times already - Credit/Debit Cards, travellers' cheques.

Once again it sounds like we're missing something here...

And I have had the exact opposite experiences in Thailand, I have never paid for anything upfront.

Hotel bills, one night or 1 month, pay at the end, always cash.

Car and m/c repair bills, always paid after, always cash.

I know its a generalisation, but people who have to pay cash in advance must look untrustworthy or a bit iffy.

I've stayed at hotels without paying up front many times. Not as long as month though. More than a couple days and I've generally been asked to pay something or at least when will I do so.

Mind you this goes back a few years and at 3 star type places...

And certainly I've paid many other bills in cash after the service was done.

[Jimi007]

This story smells fishy. Why would anyone exchange their cash at a travel agency instead of a bank? Why would you bring US Dollars to Thailand instead of Thai Baht? It just doesn't make sense...

Are you serious?? You may be willing to buy baht at a very high price outside of Thailand, but smart people bring dollars, Euros, etc., or a debit card, and get a much better exchange rate.

No, I was joking. And you're right, smart people would use a debit card and not risk becoming a target by carrying around a lot of cash.

[FOODLOVER]

The question is why presume he is guilty?

No, the question is "why presume he is innocent?"

Off topic

One of the questions Thais always ask me , why do white people appear to hate each other (especially some posting on expat forums).

The answer I have to give is, it's not all white people, merely some living long term in Thailand.

Whatever drove them out of their home countries damaged some of those people mentally, beyond hope of recovery and they have become instinctive 'haters'.

I may be wrong and an alternative view could be that these people were sociopaths to start off with.

On topic

Because the western system of justice has a 'presumption of innocence' built into it.

Some of my best friends are white.

[housepainter]

hello? Excuse me ..................... dollars = international currency accepted anywhere, convenient to change. Wise choice.

Bring them, use them, change them, get stuck with them, no problem.

Just a thought but the US currency tends to be a tad more accepted and respected than the Thai baht.

Then there's the good old Thai police, those found in Phuket being a good example of the standards of honesty and decency one can expect to meet. Hence, false imprisonment and extortion seems to be tthe call.

Will anything be done? Perhaps. The boss will most likely carpet them for not getting away with it and attracting this little local difficulty, which lik all the rest will mean more palms to be greased higher up the food chain.

Corruption / Phuket / Police / ......................next.