Thai 'Yellow Shirt' Founder Sondhi Limthongkul Jailed For 20 Years

[Orac]

I don't really think he will serve even one month in jail but anyway it's a really great news

Why is it such a great deal when the Government states that it is seeking reconciliation? Presumably Jurgen wants revenge as are those praising this sentencing without any knowledge of the facts or the politics behind it. For my part I have no idea whether Sondhi is guilty or innocent of this charge ..... what I do know is that he has been very vocal in his opposition to the Thaksin regimes (both present and past) and that makes me suspicious. However, I do not know if the judiciary is independent or not. What I see is that the judiciary is praised when it comes down on the people you oppose and vilified when it convicts those you support. There is wrongdoing on all sides of the political spectrum and that happens because the Thais have no respect for the rule of law. Without the rule of law there is no environment in which democracy can prosper. The lack of respect for the rule of law is demonstrated on the streets every day: You only have to see the vast numbers of Thais (and some farangs) who ride their motorbikes without helmets to understand this. So Jurgen, we don't need bias here because its too transparent and not at all helpful. If Sondhi had been a Red then your post would have said what bad news this is ............

Very good point.

I would like to add as well, which is pointed out by Animatic a few posts before, precedent law doesn't exist in Thailand, which means the law itself doesn't develop and, even when it is applied, is not always used consistantly which leaves it wide open to political abuse by all sides.

[lannarebirth]

Al it is is a chip to be played when the "reconciliation that puts the past behind us and favors all sides" is presented. What have you got to trade?

[whybother]

Al it is is a chip to be played when the "reconciliation that puts the past behind us and favors all sides" is presented. What have you got to trade?

Except this case has nothing to do with politics ... well, directly, anyway. If Sondhi was given a free pass on this as part of reconciliation, then the whole reconciliation process is clearly screwed.

[OzMick]

This is a joke.

If some one has commited crime(s) so serious as sentenced to 20 years, will you let him out on bail?

My conclusion:

1. Either the sentence of 20 years is way too much or

2. His crime is so minor, that he should not be sentenced in the first place.

Recall that Red Shirts: on terrorism charges and let out on bail.

Not only, but also - some were handed MP status to delay their prosecution almost indefinitely, as a reward for their criminal actions.

[lannarebirth]

Al it is is a chip to be played when the "reconciliation that puts the past behind us and favors all sides" is presented. What have you got to trade?

Except this case has nothing to do with politics ... well, directly, anyway. If Sondhi was given a free pass on this as part of reconciliation, then the whole reconciliation process is clearly screwed.

Of course it is. The "Red Shirt Villages" should have provided a clue. It's never about reconciliation here, it's always about pressing a perceived advantage. Thaksin always, ALWAYS miscalculates his perceived advantage. Then people die.

[animatic]

Al it is is a chip to be played when the "reconciliation that puts the past behind us and favors all sides" is presented. What have you got to trade?

Except this case has nothing to do with politics ... well, directly, anyway. If Sondhi was given a free pass on this as part of reconciliation, then the whole reconciliation process is clearly screwed.

Of course it is. The "Red Shirt Villages" should have provided a clue. It's never about reconciliation here, it's always about pressing a perceived advantage. Thaksin always, ALWAYS miscalculates his perceived advantage. Then people die.

Sadly an instance where precedent DOES apply.

[OZEMADE]

He was accused by Thailand's Securities and Exchange Commission of falsifying documents used as collateral for a loan of almost 1.1 billion baht ($36 million) for his ASTV/Manager media empire.

He should have been given life for the Treasonous and Terrorist activities against Thailand at the airport. He was the leader.

[KRS1]

is anyone else getting tired of thai politics and the whole red/yellow thing and wish both sides would just blow themselves up ?

[ianf]

^

I couldn't resist ....

Well obviously you didn't read my post or your English language is not good enough to understand the nuance behind it or your prejudice runs so deep that you did not want to understand the nuance behind it. I wonder which it was Jurgen? Certainly you have a history of posting obscenities that blindly support Thaksin (obscene because you ignore the obvious) when in fact in my post I was trying to take a liberal stance and ask a wider question. Straight over your head, obviously.

[ianf]

He was accused by Thailand's Securities and Exchange Commission of falsifying documents used as collateral for a loan of almost 1.1 billion baht ($36 million) for his ASTV/Manager media empire.

He should have been given life for the Treasonous and Terrorist activities against Thailand at the airport. He was the leader.

Actually he wasn't but on Thai Visa (or elsewhere in the media) you are not allowed to state who the instigator was. (Mods: hope this post is OK?????)

Edited February 29, 2012 by ianf

[rixalex]

He should have been given life for the Treasonous and Terrorist activities against Thailand at the airport. He was the leader.

Regarding the airport occupations, there are charges that should be brought, not least of all for the leader, but not treason or terrorism.

[JurgenG]

I don't really think he will serve even one month in jail but anyway it's a really great news

Why is it such a great deal when the Government states that it is seeking reconciliation? Presumably Jurgen wants revenge as are those praising this sentencing without any knowledge of the facts or the politics behind it. For my part I have no idea whether Sondhi is guilty or innocent of this charge ..... what I do know is that he has been very vocal in his opposition to the Thaksin regimes (both present and past) and that makes me suspicious. However, I do not know if the judiciary is independent or not. What I see is that the judiciary is praised when it comes down on the people you oppose and vilified when it convicts those you support. There is wrongdoing on all sides of the political spectrum and that happens because the Thais have no respect for the rule of law. Without the rule of law there is no environment in which democracy can prosper. The lack of respect for the rule of law is demonstrated on the streets every day: You only have to see the vast numbers of Thais (and some farangs) who ride their motorbikes without helmets to understand this. So Jurgen, we don't need bias here because its too transparent and not at all helpful. If Sondhi had been a Red then your post would have said what bad news this is ............

Reconciliation is between PT and the democrats and their supporters, reconciliation is for people who believe in democracy. Remember that during the last election the PAD called for "vote NO". They don't believe in democracy, they refused to form a party and face the electors. Even the democrats realized that and that's why they started to distance themselves from the PAD during the Abhisit administration.

They are major political changes on the way. The democrats realized that to lead the future government they need to win the election, which means becoming a national party like PT and stop relying on alliances like until recently. Which is very good news.

The PAD won't accept the changes. Please note that when the army or the government warn about possible violence in the future, they always mention the PAD, never the democrats. The reconciliation is well on the way. I live amongst democrats and I can say the feelings have cooled dramatically in recents months, we are very far from the division and the hate that existed at the height of the confrontation between Thaksin's supporters and opponents. But I can also see that a number of publication that are linked to Sondhi are still trying to reignite the troubles.

My feeling is the democrats have accepted that PT won the election and more importantly that actually they lost the election. They are in the process to reform themselves to win democratically the next election.

Nobody but a few extremists support the PAD anymore but Sondhi remains a risk for democracy and should be sidelined. Now you know why I celebrated Sondhi's jail sentence.

[Puccini]

So did he get 20 or 85 years?

Yes.

Sondhi has been sentenced to 85 years in jail, but under the securities law, convicts can serve no more than 20 years in jail regardless of the original sentencing.

[rixalex]

Reconciliation is between PT and the democrats and their supporters, reconciliation is for people who believe in democracy.

Reconciliation where PTP/ Red Shirts is concerned, is merely flowery code for absolving and whitewashing Thaksin (plus a few token others for appearances of balance). That sort of reconciliation is for people who don't believe in democracy.

Remember that during the last election the PAD called for "vote NO". They don't believe in democracy, they refused to form a party and face the electors.

There may be an argument that PAD is anti-democratic, but them calling for people to vote No and them refusing to form a party, is a very weak way of making that argument.

[Reasonableman]

There is no PAD Party, and equally there is no Red Party. There are pressure groups, however, who align with and support the party of their preference, sometimes peacefully and sometimes not.

But these pressure groups are not parties themselves. Please discuss (or not, as you please).

[anterian]

The guy is a fool, he has been challenging fate for a long time, like many elite Thais he thought untouchable.

[lannarebirth]

is anyone else getting tired of thai politics and the whole red/yellow thing and wish both sides would just blow themselves up ?

I think we got tired of it a couple of years ago, but thankfully that's when the Yellow Shirts died. They live now , only in some people's memories.,

Edited February 29, 2012 by lannarebirth

[bigbamboo]

I guess we can look forward to Sondhi's Skype messages to his followers from abroad now.

[waza]

Reconciliation is between PT and the democrats and their supporters, reconciliation is for people who believe in democracy.

Reconciliation where PTP/ Red Shirts is concerned, is merely flowery code for absolving and whitewashing Thaksin (plus a few token others for appearances of balance). That sort of reconciliation is for people who don't believe in democracy.

Remember that during the last election the PAD called for "vote NO". They don't believe in democracy, they refused to form a party and face the electors.

There may be an argument that PAD is anti-democratic, but them calling for people to vote No and them refusing to form a party, is a very weak way of making that argument.

On June the second 2009, the PAD formed a political party called New Politics Party or NPP...........The PAD state they stand for uncorrupt politics, promoting justice and the rule of law, while fighting against corruption among politicians and civil servants. They also claim to be upholding the constitutional monarchy and oppose those they view as wanting to alter the monarchy's status. However, it should be noted that two days after the 2006 Thailand coup, the PAD voluntarily dissolved itself after announcing its goals had been accomplished.^[4].......

^{The People's Alliance for Democracy was re-established in Thailand on March 28, 2008 at Thammasat University auditorium.[51][52] Several issues were raised by the PAD, including the Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej's ties to Thaksin Shinawatra, ties between some People's Power Party members and the banned-Thai Rak Thai party, alleged interference in the justice system, and attempts to amend the 2007 Constitution.}

^.The PAD has been described as "nationalist" and is strongly opposed to what it claims to be infringements upon national sovereignty of Thailand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Alliance_for_Democracy

Edited February 29, 2012 by waza

[Reasonableman]

Thanks for that, Waza. Forgive my ignorance.

Did PAD field candidates in any Parliamentary elections? If so, were any successful? Where are they now?

And how about the Reds?

[Atoosa07]

In comparison Taksin got off very lightly 2 yr sentance and 20 yrs for Sondhi is a bit too much for this crime I would say.........

but this is Thailand and anything is possible.....

[NanLaew]

So did he get 20 or 85 years?

Paid 10 million baht and walked.

Hasn't served a day of the sentence(s) for his earlier conviction(s) either.

[Xangsamhua]

Did PAD field candidates in any Parliamentary elections? If so, were any successful? Where are they now?

My understanding is that, after the forming of the New Politics Party by the PAD there was a split, and most PAD leaders withdrew support from the NPP, arguing that the whole party political arena was so corrupt it was better not to participate as a party in the upcoming elections at all and to encourage people to mark their ballot papers with a "no" vote. (I believe there is a slot for this on ballot papers in Thailand.) One of the founding PAD leaders, Somsak Kosaisuuk, agreed to lead the NPP in the elections, but it was now just a rump and received very little support.

The PAD is monarchist and very nationalistic. They have also put forward, though later stepped away from, a corporatist vision of representation and government. To the extent that nationalism and corporatism were features of Fascist Spain and Italy, the term "Neo-Fascist" has been applied to the PAD, though obviously not by their friends.

I think the term "Fascist" carries so much baggage now that it's hard to apply it to anyone other than those who actually claim the title. And "Neo" - anything is an attributive term rather than a descriptive one. Would it be fair to describe Putin, for example, as a "Neo-Stalinist" or Nick Clegg as a "Neo-Liberal"? Certainly there is something of the Stalinist about Putin, and of Gladstone about Clegg, but these terms are just not appropriate to the present context, and nor is the term "Fascist" or "Neo-Fascist" appropriate to the PAD. Monarchistic yes, chauvinistic, yes, but to my knowledge not intentionally racist or totalitarian.

[Reasonableman]

Could be a trend in the making. Thailand's Midnight Express

So did he get 20 or 85 years?

Paid 10 million baht and walked.

Hasn't served a day of the sentence(s) for his earlier conviction(s) either.

[Slip]

Perhaps one change to the Constitution might be, to permit 'trials in-absentia' to go-ahead, thus Thaksin might finally get justice & they might end-up sharing a cell together long-term ?

Somehow I doubt that Sondhi will ever serve time, or Thaksin return to face his outstanding court-cases, but one can dream ...

Whatever, I'd view it as progress, that a former-PM or a big-businessman can nowadays face cases like these, and be found guilty.

Once again, it all boils down to enforcement and upholding the rule of law, not only the legal process leading up to the court's decision. Many suggest that the conviction may stand, but the convicted will walk. This reflects serious reservations about the effectiveness of the justice system. Allowing a convict, whoever they are, to travel overseas because they make a solemn promise to return is either extremely naive, or extremely disingenuous. Being freed on bail should not be a get-out-of-jail-free card to abscond.

Perhaps one change to the Constitution might be, to permit 'trials in-absentia' to go-ahead, thus Thaksin might finally get justice & they might end-up sharing a cell together long-term ?

Somehow I doubt that Sondhi will ever serve time, or Thaksin return to face his outstanding court-cases, but one can dream ...

Whatever, I'd view it as progress, that a former-PM or a big-businessman can nowadays face cases like these, and be found guilty.

Once again, it all boils down to enforcement and upholding the rule of law, not only the legal process leading up to the court's decision. Many suggest that the conviction may stand, but the convicted will walk. This reflects serious reservations about the effectiveness of the justice system. Allowing a convict, whoever they are, to travel overseas because they make a solemn promise to return is either extremely naive, or extremely disingenuous. Being freed on bail should not be a get-out-of-jail-free card to abscond.

I apologise ReaonableMan because I haven't read to the end of the thread before replying to this, so my point has probably been made many times already. However, the point is that it certainly isn't naivety that allows this to happen.

[whybother]

Manager Group Founder Accepts Court's Verdict

BANGKOK: -- Sondhi Limthongkul, the founder of Manager Media Group, says he will accept the court's final verdict after he was handed down a 20-year prison sentence on loan fraud by the Criminal Court yesterday.

Yesterday, the Criminal Court handed down an 85-year prison sentence to Sondhi Limthongkul, the founder of Manager Media Group, for violating 16 counts of the Securities and Exchange laws.

However, the sentence was halved to 42 years and six months due to his confession. The sentence was further commuted to 20 years as the law allows the maximum penalty for such offenses at 20 years.

Sondhi told reporters afterward that he will appeal the sentence but will accept the final verdict of the Appeals and Supreme courts and will not flee to show that Thai people can still rely on the judicial system.

-- Tan Network 2012-02-29

[ianf]

I don't really think he will serve even one month in jail but anyway it's a really great news

Why is it such a great deal when the Government states that it is seeking reconciliation? Presumably Jurgen wants revenge as are those praising this sentencing without any knowledge of the facts or the politics behind it. For my part I have no idea whether Sondhi is guilty or innocent of this charge ..... what I do know is that he has been very vocal in his opposition to the Thaksin regimes (both present and past) and that makes me suspicious. However, I do not know if the judiciary is independent or not. What I see is that the judiciary is praised when it comes down on the people you oppose and vilified when it convicts those you support. There is wrongdoing on all sides of the political spectrum and that happens because the Thais have no respect for the rule of law. Without the rule of law there is no environment in which democracy can prosper. The lack of respect for the rule of law is demonstrated on the streets every day: You only have to see the vast numbers of Thais (and some farangs) who ride their motorbikes without helmets to understand this. So Jurgen, we don't need bias here because its too transparent and not at all helpful. If Sondhi had been a Red then your post would have said what bad news this is ............

Reconciliation is between PT and the democrats and their supporters, reconciliation is for people who believe in democracy. Remember that during the last election the PAD called for "vote NO". They don't believe in democracy, they refused to form a party and face the electors. Even the democrats realized that and that's why they started to distance themselves from the PAD during the Abhisit administration.

They are major political changes on the way. The democrats realized that to lead the future government they need to win the election, which means becoming a national party like PT and stop relying on alliances like until recently. Which is very good news.

The PAD won't accept the changes. Please note that when the army or the government warn about possible violence in the future, they always mention the PAD, never the democrats. The reconciliation is well on the way. I live amongst democrats and I can say the feelings have cooled dramatically in recents months, we are very far from the division and the hate that existed at the height of the confrontation between Thaksin's supporters and opponents. But I can also see that a number of publication that are linked to Sondhi are still trying to reignite the troubles.

My feeling is the democrats have accepted that PT won the election and more importantly that actually they lost the election. They are in the process to reform themselves to win democratically the next election.

Nobody but a few extremists support the PAD anymore but Sondhi remains a risk for democracy and should be sidelined. Now you know why I celebrated Sondhi's jail sentence.

I don't think anyone who understands Thai politics could possibly call Thaksin, the Reds or the ruling party democratic.

[Shantaram]

A political sentencing. !!!!!!!!!!!!

Thaksin deserves the same.

NOT faIr.

If you want FAIR, go back to the nursery school, this is about politics and power, not fairness.

[nurofiend]

I don't really think he will serve even one month in jail but anyway it's a really great news

Why is it such a great deal when the Government states that it is seeking reconciliation? Presumably Jurgen wants revenge as are those praising this sentencing without any knowledge of the facts or the politics behind it. For my part I have no idea whether Sondhi is guilty or innocent of this charge ..... what I do know is that he has been very vocal in his opposition to the Thaksin regimes (both present and past) and that makes me suspicious. However, I do not know if the judiciary is independent or not. What I see is that the judiciary is praised when it comes down on the people you oppose and vilified when it convicts those you support. <snip

pffft yeah right, if someone made those points about thaksin you'd be straight down their throats along with most of the forum...

you don't know all the facts behind what charges you vilify thaksin for either... and i mean facts, indisputable facts.

does it not make you very suspicous about the thaksin charges that came about, being a man who was also very vocal in his opposition or dissaproval of certain figures???

and do you know if the judiciary was independent or not during thaksin's similar time?

you're very open to question the charges and the circumstances surrounding sondhi but methinks you're not in the slightest bit open regarding the same for thaksin.

and then you have the audacity to say to the poster :

"we don't need bias here because its too transparent and not at all helpful"

yes, the kettle is black.

[JurgenG]

I don't think anyone who understands Thai politics could possibly call Thaksin, the Reds or the ruling party democratic.

Here we are again

So Jurgen, we don't need bias here because its too transparent and not at all helpful. .

And this time you truly deserve it