Fraud By Frenchman Through Paypal

[englishinsiam]

I don't know if i am in the right area, however I provide a service for Money transfers to Thailand. And recently a French guy became a customer and transferred a decent amount of money through Paypal.

I paid the money into his Thai account and a month later he started a Chargeback. Paypal had to refund him because it's not a 'tangible' good even though I provided proof of transfer from my account to his.

They have taken the amount from my paypal account and it is sitting at a hefty minus. I've had to take my site offline until I sort this. So it's costing me a fortune in lost business too.

I want to report this as a fraud but as it's an online transaction and he used a French Credit card, I wondered if I should report it to the French Police as we know Thai Police would just say Som Num na and nothing would be done.

Maybe anybody here with an idea of the French Legal system could help me. I have approached him to pay me directly but obviously he's being very obstructive, although I have messages to say he knows it's his fault.

Thanks in anticipation.

[Soutpeel]

What did your mother tell you about trusting people who wear onions around their necks and smell of garlic ??

[vtjforyou]

Any police in the world will tell you Som Num na !

You played, you lost, and you didn't know about charge back ?

Sorry but your business has zero chance to survive...

[taninthai]

That what happens when you use paypal it's well documented all over the net any complaints from customers and paypal will refund there money direct from your bank account

[hands22]

Yes, paypal (and ebay for the matter) is best buddy with the buyers only. Even if you are a premier paypal member (or ebay top-rated seller), the buyer will have the upper hand in almost all their disputes.

Sorry to hear that you have been scammed.

You can read about chargeback scam here in paypal forum (just type chargeback in the search bar)

https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/US-PayPal-Community/ct-p/US

[MANICMINER]

Firstly, you are wide open to fraud: you simply cannot use paypal or any similar payment processors to do what you are doing, because all the fraudster has to do is file a dispute with paypal and paypal will refund their money. even if you do win the paypal case, the fraudster can go to their credit card company and report an unauthorised use of card, then the credit card company will get the funds back from paypal, and paypal will get the funds back from you, and probably charge you a fee also.

Secondly, i believe what you are doing is against paypal policy: there was a well known company that did a similar thing to you and they had to stop accepting paypal payments because paypal change their user agreement. If they find out what you are doing, they will freeze your accounts - if they haven't already done so, because of your negative balance.

[theblether]

That what happens when you use paypal it's well documented all over the net any complaints from customers and paypal will refund there money direct from your bank account

I don't agree with that, I have won the last three disputes I had with customers via Paypal. However I have stopped selling via Paypal as the amount of chancer's was getting out of control.

Even though I won the dispute's the money was held for 3 weeks till arbitration was finished, annoying.

Anyway, the to OP, what was the reason for the chargeback?, ,

[theblether]

Firstly, you are wide open to fraud: you simply cannot use paypal or any similar payment processors to do what you are doing, because all the fraudster has to do is file a dispute with paypal and paypal will refund their money. even if you do win the paypal case, the fraudster can go to their credit card company and report an unauthorised use of card, then the credit card company will get the funds back from paypal, and paypal will get the funds back from you, and probably charge you a fee also.

Secondly, i believe what you are doing is against paypal policy: there was a well known company that did a similar thing to you and they had to stop accepting paypal payments because paypal change their user agreement. If they find out what you are doing, they will freeze your accounts - if they haven't already done so, because of your negative balance.

I own a retail company, we do credit card transactions every day. If the OP has confirmation from the Frenchman that he was aware of the transaction then it is out and out fraud, the case will be easily won, assuming!! that the Frenchman owned the card in the first place.

If not, then whole new ball game.

[MANICMINER]

What the OP is doing is accepting paypal payments and then sending money to a Thai bank - he is not selling anything. If you sell tangible goods, and have proof of delivery, paypal will cover you. All you need to open a Thai bank account is a passport, so the Frenchman is long gone, and there is little chance of finding him. If he reported it to Paypal or the police, they will do very little, unless it was for a massive amount.

[Beechboy]

Any police in the world will tell you Som Num na !

You played, you lost, and you didn't know about charge back ?

Sorry but your business has zero chance to survive...

A bit harsh that. I would be reluctant to profer those judgements as there is no way I could know too much about the O/P's business.

Besides, I will always be on the side of the victim of a fraudster. These scummies make it harder and harder these days to even negotiate the Net without being totally on your guard, let alone buy things or embark upon some transaction or other.

It is a wonderful medium which has been turned into a minefield by these crooks.

I have no way of knowing how to advise the O/P, except to say that you stand more chance with French authorities than Thai. The fraud squads in the UK are getting qute adept at tracking these barstools and convictions are now more and more commonplace. The same in France, I would assume.

[h90]

money laundry business?

[12DrinkMore]

money laundry business?

Yep, what is wrong with the normal channels?

The TT buying/selling rate from BKK Bank is currently 39.80 / 40.30

I cannot see any advantage worth taking the risk of going through some Paypal middleman.

The only reason I can come up with is that the Thailand based OP is sending EUR he doesn't want the authorities to see back home, and therefore offers a better rate than the banks.....

And if that is the case, then how can somebody cheating the authorities complain about being cheated himself????

Edited March 12, 2012 by 12DrinkMore

[vtjforyou]

Firstly, you are wide open to fraud: you simply cannot use paypal or any similar payment processors to do what you are doing, because all the fraudster has to do is file a dispute with paypal and paypal will refund their money. even if you do win the paypal case, the fraudster can go to their credit card company and report an unauthorised use of card, then the credit card company will get the funds back from paypal, and paypal will get the funds back from you, and probably charge you a fee also.

Secondly, i believe what you are doing is against paypal policy: there was a well known company that did a similar thing to you and they had to stop accepting paypal payments because paypal change their user agreement. If they find out what you are doing, they will freeze your accounts - if they haven't already done so, because of your negative balance.

I own a retail company, we do credit card transactions every day. If the OP has confirmation from the Frenchman that he was aware of the transaction then it is out and out fraud, the case will be easily won, assuming!! that the Frenchman owned the card in the first place.

If not, then whole new ball game.

You're wrong.

[theblether]

Firstly, you are wide open to fraud: you simply cannot use paypal or any similar payment processors to do what you are doing, because all the fraudster has to do is file a dispute with paypal and paypal will refund their money. even if you do win the paypal case, the fraudster can go to their credit card company and report an unauthorised use of card, then the credit card company will get the funds back from paypal, and paypal will get the funds back from you, and probably charge you a fee also.

Secondly, i believe what you are doing is against paypal policy: there was a well known company that did a similar thing to you and they had to stop accepting paypal payments because paypal change their user agreement. If they find out what you are doing, they will freeze your accounts - if they haven't already done so, because of your negative balance.

I own a retail company, we do credit card transactions every day. If the OP has confirmation from the Frenchman that he was aware of the transaction then it is out and out fraud, the case will be easily won, assuming!! that the Frenchman owned the card in the first place.

If not, then whole new ball game.

You're wrong.

Marvellous, I've won my last 3 Paypal dispute's and I transact credit card's every day in life and I'm wrong.

[MAJIC]

Personally I wouldn't deal with someone who can't transfer money,from his own Bank Account to a Bank in Thailand,the alarm bells would ring for me,before I started a business like the OPs.

The Fraudster couldn't cheat a Bank in this manner,and having to go through Paypal to try and retrieve his money,must be a nightmare.

There are many Internet scammers out their,so one must always be vigilant.

[englishinsiam]

I don't agree with that, I have won the last three disputes I had with customers via Paypal. However I have stopped selling via Paypal as the amount of chancer's was getting out of control.

Even though I won the dispute's the money was held for 3 weeks till arbitration was finished, annoying.

Anyway, the to OP, what was the reason for the chargeback?, ,

Unauthorised use of the Card - I told Paypal in that case their security must be up the spout as if thats the case I would have needed to get his Paypal login. And pay it to his GF's acct.... Surely if i was on the rob I'd pay my own account.

I own a retail company, we do credit card transactions every day. If the OP has confirmation from the Frenchman that he was aware of the transaction then it is out and out fraud, the case will be easily won, assuming!! that the Frenchman owned the card in the first place.

If not, then whole new ball game.

I cleared the business with Paypal and until this client was only doing the odd 5,000 and 10,000 baht here and there. The other part is phone credit, this guy is my first big client. I never wanted to compete with Banks on large transfers just make it easier for guys to send smaller amount without WU's huge fees and straight into Thai banks so no queueing at counters. I'd operated a year trouble free until this client. Hindsight I should have returned his money but phone conversations and emails with him I thought he was kosher.

money laundry business?

Not at all !!!

Yep, what is wrong with the normal channels?

The TT buying/selling rate from BKK Bank is currently 39.80 / 40.30

I cannot see any advantage worth taking the risk of going through some Paypal middleman.

The only reason I can come up with is that the Thailand based OP is sending EUR he doesn't want the authorities to see back home, and therefore offers a better rate than the banks.....

And if that is the case, then how can somebody cheating the authorities complain about being cheated himself????

Very simple sending smaller amounts through Banks is expensive and not everyone wants to send their teelak £500 + in one go. I had guys sending 5,000 baht a week so the girls didn't go mad.

I was not a money changer the clients paid me in Baht and I paid out in Baht ALL approved by Paypal at the start when the first payments were queried. They cleared that aspect and the phone credits too.

Thank you to those trying to offer help, but the main reason for my post is how i go about reporting the fraud to the French Police. I have emails from him requesting the money and whatsapp conversations on my phone even one i sent to him saying I've sent your last payment he replied 'Thanks' so I have plenty of proof I didn't do anything underhand.

The weird thing is he did 14 transfers over 2 months and only 5 have been investigated by his card company. Now i don't know if he used 2 different cards all I know is it came from the same Paypal ID.

So if anyone knows how I go about reporting to the French Police from Thailand I would appreciate it thanks.

Incidentally I have taken my site down and am in talks with another Payment processor as I can't deal with paypal in this way anymore. My acct hasn't been frozen but once the Police find in my favour then the liabilities on the Paypal account won't rest with me.

Edited March 12, 2012 by englishinsiam

[theblether]

I cleared the business with Paypal and until this client was only doing the odd 5,000 and 10,000 baht here and there. The other part is phone credit, this guy is my first big client. I never wanted to compete with Banks on large transfers just make it easier for guys to send smaller amount without WU's huge fees and straight into Thai banks so no queueing at counters. I'd operated a year trouble free until this client. Hindsight I should have returned his money but phone conversations and emails with him I thought he was kosher.

This is known as Long Firming, you get a drip drip drip of orders then you get hammered at the end.

It is highly prevalent in the area where I run my business...........the root of this now is a criminal complaint. You should have a note of the guy's registered Paypal address, the police in that area will take care of it. All you have to do is supply proof that he knew the transaction was going through. It's as simple as that.

You can also make a criminal complaint to the police in the area that you're Paypal account is registered to, all the better if that is in England as they are searingly hot on this type of crime.

The police will look at your proof that he knew about the transaction, and once satisfied that it is valid, they will contact Paypal. Paypal will fold like a pack of cards and hand over all the files. That will reveal the funding source of the card, and by definition the card issuer.

They will then provide what they know about the transaction, and if the police can match up the emails to the card transaction then voila!! fraud.

If you don't have any email proof though then you will have next to no chance. Where retailers get caught out most of all is telephone orders, we can take every detail required to authorise payments and still get a charge back. At that point we are beat because we have no written record of the transaction from the customers side.

[MANICMINER]

Firstly, you are wide open to fraud: you simply cannot use paypal or any similar payment processors to do what you are doing, because all the fraudster has to do is file a dispute with paypal and paypal will refund their money. even if you do win the paypal case, the fraudster can go to their credit card company and report an unauthorised use of card, then the credit card company will get the funds back from paypal, and paypal will get the funds back from you, and probably charge you a fee also.

Secondly, i believe what you are doing is against paypal policy: there was a well known company that did a similar thing to you and they had to stop accepting paypal payments because paypal change their user agreement. If they find out what you are doing, they will freeze your accounts - if they haven't already done so, because of your negative balance.

I own a retail company, we do credit card transactions every day. If the OP has confirmation from the Frenchman that he was aware of the transaction then it is out and out fraud, the case will be easily won, assuming!! that the Frenchman owned the card in the first place.

If not, then whole new ball game.

You're wrong.

Marvellous, I've won my last 3 Paypal dispute's and I transact credit card's every day in life and I'm wrong.

paypal disputes are easy to win: you just have to enter the parcel tracking number and you have won. The real question is how many fraud cases you have won? Yes, it is fraud, but the whole matter will take months to resolve, and during this time, his paypal account will be frozen and he cannot operate his business without it. So the OPs business model simply does not work. Also, he needs to check if he is adhering to Thai anti money laundering laws - i suspect he is not. If her reports to the police, he will put his own business under scrutiny, and he could find himself in trouble.

[autan]

1. I am very sorry to tell the OP that as things stand, no crime has been committed at not by the person who paid the OP to transfer the money.

2. the Authorities you would need to complain to would be the French Police. This is because it is convention that any complaints made against a person should always be done in the defendants jurisdication. Therefore the French Courts have supremacy.

3. The type of business you are are running is actually illegal money laundering if you do not hold a licence in your country of registration. Having no country of registration makes it illegal too.

My advice is to take the hit and stop using Paypal.

[autan]

What fraud has been commited ???

In what jurisdication are you basing your assumptions ???

Certainly, Not Thailand, UK or France. No fraud has been committed as of yet.

The only offence what can be arrestable is that of unlawful money laundering by way of transmitting emoney without secure kyc regulations which is a fine of 5000k in the UK, which is most certainly does not have jurisdicational supremacy in this case.

[wana]

What fraud has been commited ???

In what jurisdication are you basing your assumptions ???

Certainly, Not Thailand, UK or France. No fraud has been committed as of yet.

The only offence what can be arrestable is that of unlawful money laundering by way of transmitting emoney without secure kyc regulations which is a fine of 5000k in the UK, which is most certainly does not have jurisdicational supremacy in this case.

What fraud has been commited ???

the french guy sends 500 euro or whatever to op's paypal account

op takes a commission and then transfers it to thailand bank

once its safely in his friends thai bank ,frenchie can open a paypal dispute or a credit card chargeback and get back his original 500 euro

leaving him with 1000 euro ,500 in france and 500 in the thai bank

and leaving the op with a negative balance of -500 euro

how can that not be considered a fraudulant act ?

(by the way ,these type of businesses are probably illegal ,you need to be licenced + regulated or youre just ike a hawala broker )

[autan]

how can that not be considered a fraudulant act ?

(by the way ,these type of businesses are probably illegal ,you need to be licenced + regulated or youre just ike a hawala broker )

No sorry even given the cirmstancence you laid out, providing Frenchie gave his real details, its just a civil dispute, not fraud.

The only illegal activity in law is the money launderer. (The OP). They are the only people who the Police would have an interest to speak to if he reported it. Like I said it it would be the French Police who would have jurisdictional supremacy. Just because he might be English doesnt mean it falls under English law. Thai Law might be relevant if h could prove they were both in Thailand at the time of the transfers.

[wana]

how can that not be considered a fraudulant act ?

(by the way ,these type of businesses are probably illegal ,you need to be licenced + regulated or youre just ike a hawala broker )

No sorry even given the cirmstancence you laid out, providing Frenchie gave his real details, its just a civil dispute, not fraud.

The only illegal activity in law is the money launderer. (The OP). They are the only people who the Police would have an interest to speak to if he reported it. Like I said it it would be the French Police who would have jurisdictional supremacy. Just because he might be English doesnt mean it falls under English law. Thai Law might be relevant if h could prove they were both in Thailand at the time of the transfers.

how can stealing 500 euro like that be just a civil thing rather than a crime ? its like buying a 500 euro laptop and saying there was a brick in the box when it arrived ie : (stealing the principal + using a trick to get back a full refund )

i know in this situation ,nothing will be done but this kind of fraud is so common i get emails daily for it

sell something on gumtree and you see what i mean .....

[pmarlin]

money laundry business?

That was my first thought and without all the facts but with what the OP has provided it can't be legal .

[wana]

its pretty clear to me the french guy has conned the other person

and benefitted from the transaction + the refund

it gets murky when people start to question why was such a transaction necessary in the first place ?

the reasons given about wanting to send money to thai girl\friends in small amounts etc doesnt wash

thai girlfriends are perfectly capable of opening their own paypal accounts and the need of this type of service

is very questionable when there is already western union and moneygram and a t/t wire transfer and paypal to paypal

and moneybookers and a million other LEGAL ways to send someone cash

[englishinsiam]

Thanks for the replies...

It is fraud and my next stop is the French Police.

I only transferred Small amounts as a rule and am close going with a new payment processor where the software will have strict limits on transactions.

These will only be lifted after I am very confident the Client is honest, i.e. after a few months operating.

Now I just need to know how to report to the French Police from Thailand. I thnk a call to the French embassy might suffice as a first step.

[englishinsiam]

I have been sent a link to report it online, thanks to the member that provided it.

I will get it sent over to them tomorrow.

Thanks for the helpful members on here.