Culture Clash

[sriracha john]

Going topless on a beach doesn't hurt anyone...fact!! The few Thais that frequent beaches are there for a reason, to leer!

not true. some are out there to generate an income for themselves with the filming...

[dantilley]

Going topless on a beach doesn't hurt anyone...fact!! The few Thais that frequent beaches are there for a reason, to leer!

not true. some are out there to generate an income for themselves with the filming...

Or perhaps to make money selling fruit, sarongs, drinks, etc; or to play and swim in the sea, or to play beach volleyball, or to play football, or maybe they work in a bar / cafe on the beach, or maybe they're with other farrang friends who are sunbathing, or they're with their kids who are playing in the sand and sea, or..... there are plenty of reasons Thais go to the beach other than to leer. And you can't imagine the many Thai girls you see on beaches are leering!

[thaibebop]

Going topless on a beach doesn't hurt anyone...fact!! The few Thais that frequent beaches are there for a reason, to leer!

But... I am totally against people strutting round in their swimming costumes away from the beach, this is where most tourists are going to come in contact with ordinary Thais and they should show some respect, just like they should anywhere else.

There really is nothing culturally wrong with being topless, people do it all over the world, it is purely a "civilised" and possibly religious snob thing, where the so called civilised upper stratum look down on all those below.. dictating social etiquette.. complete twaddle!

Wow, so what does that make Yankland? Try that here and you'll see jail time.

[dantilley]

Going topless on a beach doesn't hurt anyone...fact!! The few Thais that frequent beaches are there for a reason, to leer!

But... I am totally against people strutting round in their swimming costumes away from the beach, this is where most tourists are going to come in contact with ordinary Thais and they should show some respect, just like they should anywhere else.

There really is nothing culturally wrong with being topless, people do it all over the world, it is purely a "civilised" and possibly religious snob thing, where the so called civilised upper stratum look down on all those below.. dictating social etiquette.. complete twaddle!

Wow, so what does that make Yankland? Try that here and you'll see jail time.

Not quite sure what your first sentence is trying to say about "Yankland", wherever that is. Please explain that a bit more.

As for your second comment, you mean to say you will be in Jail if you sunbathe topless in Thailand? If so, that's utter rubbish.

[thaibebop]

Going topless on a beach doesn't hurt anyone...fact!! The few Thais that frequent beaches are there for a reason, to leer!

But... I am totally against people strutting round in their swimming costumes away from the beach, this is where most tourists are going to come in contact with ordinary Thais and they should show some respect, just like they should anywhere else.

There really is nothing culturally wrong with being topless, people do it all over the world, it is purely a "civilised" and possibly religious snob thing, where the so called civilised upper stratum look down on all those below.. dictating social etiquette.. complete twaddle!

Wow, so what does that make Yankland? Try that here and you'll see jail time.

Not quite sure what your first sentence is trying to say about "Yankland", wherever that is. Please explain that a bit more.

As for your second comment, you mean to say you will be in Jail if you sunbathe topless in Thailand? If so, that's utter rubbish.

If you get naked in public in Yankland (America) you will be thrown in jail. Now, read ourmanflints last bit and ask, what does that say about America?

[Howe A Dee]

[

Not quite sure what your first sentence is trying to say about "Yankland", wherever that is. Please explain that a bit more.

As for your second comment, you mean to say you will be in Jail if you sunbathe topless in Thailand? If so, that's utter rubbish.

If I may, this quote like so many reveals an unwillingness to let facts get in the way of a strong opionion. Unknown to many of the "experts" here it is perfectly legal for a woman to go topless in the state of New York including of course Coney Island. More or less goes the same for Texas, parts of Oregon, Florida, California and all federally owned land, you see laws regarding nudity are strictly local. If tourist areas in an affulent conservative southern state like Florida can adjust their laws for german tourists then I'm sure the resorts of southern thailand can do the same without jepordizing thai culture.

Many of the posts here discouraging toplessness are so filled with contradictions you have to wonder whose sensibilities they are trying to protect. To wit, examine the story of the elephant handler allowing the molestation of a paying guest and decide for yourself who was disrepecting whom. Equally amusing are the breathless descriptions of Thais staring and photographing the "offense".

Pity the tourist like the OP who were lured to LOS with the promise of sublime relaxation only to be told upon arrival that you can't put your feet up without offending someone.

It sounds like many here would like to see the thai tourist authority redirect their ads to the nations of the middle east in order to attract a class of tourist more able to fit in with their view of Thailand.

[robitusson]

Many of the posts here discouraging toplessness are so filled with contradictions you have to wonder whose sensibilities they are trying to protect.

It's not asking much for people to cover up a bit in order to show a bit of respect towards the culture of the country they are temporarily visiting. Where's the contradiction? They're not being asked to wear head-scarves or being threatened with stoning if they don't do it. It's precisely because the Thais would say nothing when someone behaves immodestly and embarasses them, that people should show their own initiative and show a bit of restraint.

Edited March 23, 2006 by robitusson

[sbk]

If you get naked in public in Yankland (America) you will be thrown in jail. Now, read ourmanflints last bit and ask, what does that say about America?

Really? Where? I lived in California for years (on the beach, lucky me) and saw topless bathing on a regular basis, there were also several nud_e beaches. Never saw a policeman on the beach much less hauling off some hapless naked sunbather.

[thaibebop]

If you get naked in public in Yankland (America) you will be thrown in jail. Now, read ourmanflints last bit and ask, what does that say about America?

Really? Where? I lived in California for years (on the beach, lucky me) and saw topless bathing on a regular basis, there were also several nud_e beaches. Never saw a policeman on the beach much less hauling off some hapless naked sunbather.

Just not being enforced than. I can bet there is still a law on paper that says no to that.

[sbk]

Just like there are laws against sodomy --just because its there doesn't make it mean anything. And it certainly doesn't mean that you will be hauled off to jail as suggested.

[thaibebop]

Just like there are laws against sodomy --just because its there doesn't make it mean anything. And it certainly doesn't mean that you will be hauled off to jail as suggested.

Okay, you got me. I will refine my statement and say that in the midwest, you will be arrested.

[Sheryl]

Not too many beaches in the midwest....

But in point of fact, in my own experience, people do get fined or ordered to cover up for being topless in both California and New York. Only happens if someone else complains to the cops, in which case the cops in turn will come over and ask you to cover up; if you don't or get sassy, they fine you. Same story for being nud_e except the likelihood of being stopped is muich greater, and I have heard some cases of being arrested (charge: indecency).

Unofficial nud_e beaches exist and are tolerated as long as nobody complains; usually these are in remote areas easily avoided by those who prefer not to witness nudity.

Bottom line (no pun intended!) -- it isn't socially acceptable to sunbathe nud_e in most parts of the US, for sure. Toplessness if unobtrusive (i.e. not walking about, just sunbathing) is more tolerated, but not exactly acceptable and not widely practiced in most US beaches except for ones specifically frequented for that purpose.

It is also not acceptable to the majority of people in quite a number of other countries (for example, virtually all of Asia from the suncontinent to the far east). I may be wrong but I don't have the impression it's the norm in the U.K. either. It seems primarily a Western European custom, and last time I counted they don't add up to anything near a majority of the planet. Being topless or nud_e may very often offend some of one's fellow foreigners as well as the Thais.

Yes, Thais come to leer at the nud_e farang. And other Thais put up with the nudity in order to make a living. But the saddest part is the Thais who have to avoid beaches in their own country in order to adhere to their own cultural norms. (Granted, the fault lies with greedy Thai business folk who allow the practice). I know a lot of Thais who avoid the " farang" beaches for this very reason.

I'm in the process of planning a beach vacation with a close Cambodian friend --- and one of the things I'm having to take into consideration is the Naked European factor, which would definitely offend and cause discomfort.

So please folks -- in order that we can all get along and enjoy the sea shore, in a heterogenous and multicultural world -- keep your swimsuit on, at least when walking about.

[sbk]

and guys, make it something more substantial than a speedo, will ya?

[sylvafern]

and guys, make it something more substantial than a speedo, will ya?

especially a g-string one! (seen several times on Chaweng beach in Samui!)

[aaaaaa]

All over a shirt, I know. But really, just wear appropriate attire, that's all.

ha ! many farangs walk on the road without T-shirt - and NOT ONLY on Khaosan Rd, I saw on Sukhumvit, during day time. at night time - some drunk guys (group of 4 of them) pulled their shorts down - thanks God only back side - and walked few meters flashing their arces ! I couldn't believe my eyes !

at least it is much more pleasant to see topless farang ladies - nud_e breasts are somewhat "esthetic" unlike ugly fat male arces !

I agree with Glauka - the only reason why people would do something which they won't in their own country, is a lack of respect.

and definetely I liked Kat's comment and glad she said what she said.

and of course all others who are against topless bathing.

about Katoys, as Boo's mentioned - perhaps Thais don't realy consider them as females? not in real sense - rather like some comical (as they are usually depicted in movies and TV programs, except perhaps "Beautifull boxer") personages about nud_e gals in bars - I disagree, that is more like private/ closed, not public/open place ! and "imported from the West" - not realy Thai thing

Edited March 25, 2006 by aaaaaa

[thaibebop]

Not too many beaches in the midwest....

You need a beach to sunbathe? I thought you just needed the sun.

[thaibebop]

and guys, make it something more substantial than a speedo, will ya?

especially a g-string one! (seen several times on Chaweng beach in Samui!)

I'll thrid this. Nothing worse than a man in a g-string. It's always the fat guys too.

[robitusson]

Thankfully a rare sight.

Edited March 26, 2006 by robitusson

[dantilley]

I saw a Thai guy frollicking around in a G-String a couple of weeks ago on Koh Samet. Most odd...

[gisele]

and guys, make it something more substantial than a speedo, will ya?

especially a g-string one! (seen several times on Chaweng beach in Samui!)

I'll thrid this. Nothing worse than a man in a g-string. It's always the fat guys too.

Yesterday, we went for a fruit juice at Santiburi (only thing I can afford there ), here we are, sitting at the beach cafe, admiring the site when a rather large farang appeared wearing a tiny back Speedo, but then he turned around to pick up something on the beach and we were privy to a full moon with a G-sting.

what a site.

[robitusson]

and guys, make it something more substantial than a speedo, will ya?

especially a g-string one! (seen several times on Chaweng beach in Samui!)

I'll thrid this. Nothing worse than a man in a g-string. It's always the fat guys too.

Yesterday, we went for a fruit juice at Santiburi (only thing I can afford there ), here we are, sitting at the beach cafe, admiring the site when a rather large farang appeared wearing a tiny back Speedo, but then he turned around to pick up something on the beach and we were privy to a full moon with a G-sting.

what a site.

You loved it, didn't you.

[gisele]

and guys, make it something more substantial than a speedo, will ya?

especially a g-string one! (seen several times on Chaweng beach in Samui!)

I'll thrid this. Nothing worse than a man in a g-string. It's always the fat guys too.

Yesterday, we went for a fruit juice at Santiburi (only thing I can afford there ), here we are, sitting at the beach cafe, admiring the site when a rather large farang appeared wearing a tiny black Speedo, but then he turned around to pick up something on the beach and we were privy to a full moon with a G-sting.

what a site.

You loved it, didn't you.

It's one of those images that is impossible to erase from your mind

Edited March 27, 2006 by gisele

[ourmanflint]

It is also not acceptable to the majority of people in quite a number of other countries (for example, virtually all of Asia from the suncontinent to the far east). I may be wrong but I don't have the impression it's the norm in the U.K. either. It seems primarily a Western European custom.....

Just to be really pedantic and a bit boring..... I'm gonna drag this thread back on topic!

nudity or partial nudity is common all over the world from Africa to South America, throughout Polynesia and until recently Indonesia, Malaysia, India and I'm just guessing here... Thailand!!! What changes is societies view of nudity.. always following the "civilised" western lead, one prude steps up and says it is "ungodly", then goes another and another!! Thank the Catholic church for covering up most of Asia and the world, preaching from the pulpit that it is a low and savage thing to do...

it is all nonsense concocted by preening politicians!

[Sheryl]

quote]

Just to be really pedantic and a bit boring..... I'm gonna drag this thread back on topic!

nudity or partial nudity is common all over the world from Africa to South America, throughout Polynesia and until recently Indonesia, Malaysia, India and I'm just guessing here... Thailand!!! What changes is societies view of nudity.. always following the "civilised" western lead, one prude steps up and says it is "ungodly", then goes another and another!! Thank the Catholic church for covering up most of Asia and the world, preaching from the pulpit that it is a low and savage thing to do...

it is all nonsense concocted by preening politicians!

It's been a few centuries since female nudity or even partial nudity (which I suspect is what you are referring to, i.e. toplessnes, since total nudity would be many centuries ago) was acceptable in India and many of the other spots mentioned...I wouldn't call that "recent". And Islam has and is doing far more covering up than the Christianity ever did. And the dress customs of most of India are a Hindu custom. Anyhow that's not the point. Standrds of modesty are cultural and change over time, sure. In some parts of the world the trend is towards wearing more, in others towards less (modern bikini would have been unthinkable in the West just 50 years ago) and these trends can and will reverse themselves and back again. Few people know or care what the origin of the prevailing standards are, or how these compare to other countries or their own in the past; they jusdt know when they feel uncomfortable. People are culturally conditioned to find certain levels of nudity unacceptable in certain contexts. And most of the world's population, today, find toplessness and total nudity unacceptable in public, even at the beach. If and when that changes, fine. But in the meantime what is gained by offending people and making them feel uncomfortable?

[markuk]

i never have a problem going topless except my man boobs go bright pink!!

[ourmanflint]

Standrds of modesty are cultural and change over time, sure. In some parts of the world the trend is towards wearing more, in others towards less (modern bikini would have been unthinkable in the West just 50 years ago) and these trends can and will reverse themselves and back again. Few people know or care what the origin of the prevailing standards are, or how these compare to other countries or their own in the past; they jusdt know when they feel uncomfortable. People are culturally conditioned to find certain levels of nudity unacceptable in certain contexts. And most of the world's population, today, find toplessness and total nudity unacceptable in public, even at the beach. If and when that changes, fine. But in the meantime what is gained by offending people and making them feel uncomfortable?

Nothing at all is gained by offending anyone, you're right, I just wonder how many people are genuinely upset by it on a tourist beach... I mean really!! and not just responding to social pressure??

[gisele]

Standrds of modesty are cultural and change over time, sure. In some parts of the world the trend is towards wearing more, in others towards less (modern bikini would have been unthinkable in the West just 50 years ago) and these trends can and will reverse themselves and back again. Few people know or care what the origin of the prevailing standards are, or how these compare to other countries or their own in the past; they jusdt know when they feel uncomfortable. People are culturally conditioned to find certain levels of nudity unacceptable in certain contexts. And most of the world's population, today, find toplessness and total nudity unacceptable in public, even at the beach. If and when that changes, fine. But in the meantime what is gained by offending people and making them feel uncomfortable?

Nothing at all is gained by offending anyone, you're right, I just wonder how many people are genuinely upset by it on a tourist beach... I mean really!! and not just responding to social pressure??

More than you think, but they won't show their disapproval. It's not polite.

The same reason that I won't say to curb their language to the loud person sitting at the next table, injecting an explitive every second word they utter.

You put up with some behaviours even if it makes you uncomfortable.

Some people don't see anything wrong in being irreverent to other cultures, or any one else for that matter, and these people are tolerated, further, if they happen to have money and this is your source of income then there is not much choice in the matter.

Even back home, we don't tell our boss to change their behaviour, or even telling him we all know he's wearing a toupee or that his comb-over looks ridiculous.

[bina]

i have to say, when u live surrounded by the 'moral codes' of an other culture, u start to pick up on them: after living in jerusalem area (a conservative, predominately religious/orthodox even if secular people are living here) i tend to dress more conservatively (provincially as the tel aviv people would say); even the colours used here (what is sold, and what people buy,) are more conservative: mini micro skirts etc make me feel uncomfortable when i see a young girl, or a 40+ older woman wearing one, etc... definately nudity at the beach (i used to skinny dip!!) or topless.... its not that i'm a prude, but somehow, the surroundings seem to have rubbed off on me as to what i feel is appropriate dress for men or women .... also, the plumbers' crack thing that israeli guys like to show really bothers me too , havent noticed that with thai men yet...

havent started covering my head yet though!!!

also dont understand why anyone would expose all of his/her delicate areas to sun and cancer

im getting old .... tut tut tut!!!

[ourmanflint]

So what everyone is saying is that they let that sector of society that is "most offended" by something, what clothes you wear or don't wear etc, be the moral guiding light... this is such a dangerous path to follow!!

Freedom and Liberty are more important values than the possibility of offendiong someones sensibilities because they too have followed this rigid cultural passing on of morals. Modern Islam and Victorianism both did this to a very great degree, and neither should be tolerated.

Get your kit off wherever and whenever.. this may be your last chance!!

[robitusson]

So what everyone is saying is that they let that sector of society that is "most offended" by something, what clothes you wear or don't wear etc, be the moral guiding light... this is such a dangerous path to follow!!

Freedom and Liberty are more important values than the possibility of offendiong someones sensibilities because they too have followed this rigid cultural passing on of morals. Modern Islam and Victorianism both did this to a very great degree, and neither should be tolerated.

Get your kit off wherever and whenever.. this may be your last chance!!

We're not at home now. We're in Thailand. Trendy ideas about being anti-Islam and "free" are irrelevant. We don't make the rules here. They do. Showing your tits on the beach does not further the cause of freedom in any way. Give everybody else the "freedom" of not having to see other peoples wobbly bits in public.