Fish Farms 201

[sjefrie]

When you prepare your EM-A don't forget to loosen the cap every day a few times to release gas generated during the fermentation process else your bottle can explode.

Or use a fermentation lock (airlock)

When you not can find a fermentation lock you can use a balloon instead

Or build your own fermentation lock

How to build a fermentation lock

Edited June 8, 2013 by sjefrie

[mengfarmer]

Many many thank you to Red Bull Horn and Sejfrie

RBH, I saw in another thred that you write that in cement tank best to use original strength EM. Is that correct or have I missunderstood?

Also I want to ask all guys out there, how do you empty your cement tank of water in best way? My tank have plug in the bottom for empty but sometime small fish get out of plug when open so I think this is not good way to change water. Anyone how have a better way, please tell me!

Also I want to ask if you have any tips for books or website where I can learn about basic fish farming that isent already on thaivisa? I reallt want to learn for myself so I dont have to bother you guys with question all the time

[David48]

Also I want to ask if you have any tips for books or website where I can learn about basic fish farming that isent already on thaivisa? I reallt want to learn for myself so I dont have to bother you guys with question all the time

Have you read all of the Threads in the opening post #1 of this thread?

After that ... look at post #5, #12 and #13, #14, #27, #30 and #31, #35, #52, #57, #62, #65 - 68, #74 and #75,

... that's got to be at least a weeks worth of reading and watching!

Just that Fish Farming comes in all varieties from the domestic use to commercial operations, let alone the fish species and methods of feeding them.

Doubt one book would cover them all.

You got the best that Thailand can offer here on this thread ... that was the idea ... to bring the collective knowledge together under one roof.

Don't even get me started on Prawns ...

.

[RedBullHorn]

Many many thank you to Red Bull Horn and Sejfrie

RBH, I saw in another thred that you write that in cement tank best to use original strength EM. Is that correct or have I missunderstood?

Also I want to ask all guys out there, how do you empty your cement tank of water in best way? My tank have plug in the bottom for empty but sometime small fish get out of plug when open so I think this is not good way to change water. Anyone how have a better way, please tell me!

Also I want to ask if you have any tips for books or website where I can learn about basic fish farming that isent already on thaivisa? I reallt want to learn for myself so I dont have to bother you guys with question all the time

Yes it is best... but not a better practice. The "economical method" would be to expand the EM into ready-to-use storage EM-A. There's a guide line on a standard EM-A, which is 1/3 of EM, 1/3 of mollases and 1/3 of water. Depending on storage period, you can alter the mix to suit your usage. EM-A storage period vary from 7 days to 3 years.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/624074-fish-farming-when-it-goes-belly-up/?p=6232962

As for way of preventing fishes escape from the outlet plug, squeeze a rubber grill mesh into a ball shape push it into the tube/plug inside the tank (not into the tube outside the tank), water drained and no fish would escape. Rubber grill mesh comes in square or hexagon shape and size 2mm, 3mm, 5mm, 7mm, 9mm, 12mm......

Colours - Black, yellow, red, green...

Edited June 11, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ray23]

Well we finished off our 400 Pla Duk, to my surprise we netted about 500 baht.

Went with the filter design of the water forced up to the top from the bottom Works great and I only needed modify my existing filter. Works great.water stay nice and clear a long a you clean the filter, we do it daily. But, that might be over kill.

We are taking our first shot at Pla Mor, which I know nothing about, we have sit up cement tanks for them. They still say we can get a 100 baht market price. we are about to find out.

I assume they can eat the 25% Pla Duk Food ?

My second question is are they like Pla Nin and need an oxygen source?

Or are they like catfish and don't?

Our fish operation is more a hobby then anything else, nothing wrong with a hobby that pays for itself.

We sold our first worms the off spring worm farmers worms. We purchased them for bait, hey maybe we will have free bait in years to come. 200 worms 200 baht

Following the advice of Red Bull or water is as we need it for the Plan Nin now.

Anyway I would like to think Aussie Don an Red bull for their patience with me.

[ray23]

You know I'm always amazed by what I find here, Pla Mor ( Climbing Fish ) air breathers like Pla Duk. But I will still add oxygen in the tanks just to be sure. Got the equipment already so no big deal. They can live loe oxygen level no need o push it though

I think I will add netting over the top, when I put the Pla Duk in the holding tank darn things jumped out. So I put netting over the top and stop the escapes.

Reviewed RBD's post again, spot on. I would never try to make a living with fish here. But it;s good to keep the mind active and try a few things a long as you can afford it.

With the Pla Duk I know we had some midnight fishing going on. Stocked with 400 got 200 out.

Don't know what I will do about it, don't want to live there.

They mess with my Plarooms. then I will build a small place for my brother in law out there. That is Redbulls saying of mushrooms and that is our real cash crop.

Our original thought was to move out there. But, the more I see of our neighbors everything is a one way street. I don't like being around that kind of enviornment. Sadly I don't think they will make good neighbors. But hey I got lots of areas for mushroom houses

[ray23]

Many many thank you to Red Bull Horn and Sejfrie

RBH, I saw in another thred that you write that in cement tank best to use original strength EM. Is that correct or have I missunderstood?

Also I want to ask all guys out there, how do you empty your cement tank of water in best way? My tank have plug in the bottom for empty but sometime small fish get out of plug when open so I think this is not good way to change water. Anyone how have a better way, please tell me!

Also I want to ask if you have any tips for books or website where I can learn about basic fish farming that isent already on thaivisa? I reallt want to learn for myself so I dont have to bother you guys with question all the time

Yes it is best... but not a better practice. The "economical method" would be to expand the EM into ready-to-use storage EM-A. There's a guide line on a standard EM-A, which is 1/3 of EM, 1/3 of mollases and 1/3 of water. Depending on storage period, you can alter the mix to suit your usage. EM-A storage period vary from 7 days to 3 years.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/624074-fish-farming-when-it-goes-belly-up/?p=6232962

As for way of preventing fishes escape from the outlet plug, squeeze a rubber grill mesh into a ball shape push it into the tube/plug inside the tank (not into the tube outside the tank), water drained and no fish would escape. Rubber grill mesh comes in square or hexagon shape and size 2mm, 3mm, 5mm, 7mm, 9mm, 12mm......

Colours - Black, yellow, red, green...

When I clean the filter I lose water each time and then replace it, so a constant rotation daily. I only empty the tank when it;s empty and I do good scrub down then, But, remember I'm talking a hobby here.

[ray23]

RBH went back and reviewed your formula with EMA and molasses, you said to mix it with pellets?

Do you mean 25% fish pellets?

Sometimes I have to laugh at myself, I do what you and Aussie Don recommend. I added salt as instructed didn't know why. Found it in reading through that again

Now I trying to figure out if Pla Duk and Pla Mor can be in the same pond. That is with them all being about the same size starting out.

When we emptied the Pla Duk pond did the lime treatment up front. If I understood correctly I might be able to get three growing cycles from that.

I may not be making money, But it's really interesting coming from no knowledge at all

[RedBullHorn]

RBH went back and reviewed your formula with EMA and molasses, you said to mix it with pellets?

Do you mean 25% fish pellets?

Sometimes I have to laugh at myself, I do what you and Aussie Don recommend. I added salt as instructed didn't know why. Found it in reading through that again

Now I trying to figure out if Pla Duk and Pla Mor can be in the same pond. That is with them all being about the same size starting out.

When we emptied the Pla Duk pond did the lime treatment up front. If I understood correctly I might be able to get three growing cycles from that.

I may not be making money, But it's really interesting coming from no knowledge at all

Only Pla duk "Big Oui" can be raise together with Pla Mor... But NOT Pla duk "Lard Sia". Pla duk Lard Sia will prey on Pla Mor or just plain attack due to their instinct and have the ability to wipe out all Pla Mor in a single pond. Pla duk Lard Sia is very aggressive, so much more aggressive than Pla duk Big Oui. When that happen, you won't be using a hoe to bury the death...you will paying for a backhoe to excavate a hole so big to bury them.

I have NEVER recommend fish pellet of 25% protein. I always recommend pellet size #1 - 32% protein starter size fingerlings of 3''-4'' and pellet size #2 - 30% protein for grow out. 35% frog feed for fingerlings size 2''-3''.

25% protein is a waste of money to raise Pla duk. 25% protein is recommended for scales fishes like Pla Nin or Pla Tub Tim but with herbivores ingredient as base. "All purposes" Pla duk feed are Trash Fishmeal base.

EMA is mix together with feed pellets and salt is diluted into tank/pond water... Please tell me you didn't mix salt into your feed~ !?!!

One more thing, I will share this with you so pay close attention.

If your pond's mud bed is more than 30cm up to your kneecap height, there is too much waste build up. High armonia and methyl build up will affect ADG (Average Daily Growth) and DO level and will affect overall growth performance. Hire backhoe to get rid of it...Of course you need to provide a dumping site - your paddy fields.

Edited July 28, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ray23]

No I didn't mix salt with feed. Odd i have never even seen 32% protein in Udon.

Unless I find a source for Pla Mor, I will stick to Pla Nin as my hobby. Takes longer but, much easier to supplement, the food. Algae ect.

I plan on pumping the big pond in March and starting over, with them. Give it a chance to recover get my lime in properly ect. Not much mud in that one at all, primarily a rock bottom. So fishing is done with poles. That is why the worm farm, bait.

The ponds actually serve a dual purpose, water supply for the plarooms as well.

[IsaanAussie]

On the EM issue. The active is lactic acid bacteria, which feasts on the three nitrogen forms given off during the breakdown of feed and wastes. The recommendation I would make is to use 1 litre of EM per 700 sq metres of pond surface. I spray the surface as evenly as I can so the EM is first diluted in water (dilution rate doesnt matter). There is no need to use molasses, you want the LAB to thrive on the nitrogen and algaes in the pond.

The LAB will also assist in cleaning the skin of the fish and aid with their digestion. The EM ingests the nitrogen which is stored as amino acids (crude proteins). When the bacteria is consumed by larger water insects etc.. the protein is digested further. Obviously it ends up feeding your fish.

I would spray the feed with EM-A if you want it to float. When I want to introduce soil bacteria on the farm I dunk the fertiliser pellets in a EM diluted with water. You could do the same for feed. Use a blue mesh bag and give them a few minutes in the bucket. EM dilution about 1 in 500 should do it.

A side note. There are many strains of LAB. The one used in commercial EM is different to the one I brew. I have not noticed a difference in the garden but my stuff had a much better effect on livestock. It is for sale at 40 baht a litre if anyone is interested.

Final note: Commercial EM extension should be 1 litre EM, 1 litre molasses and 18 litres of water. At this rate EM-A will last 3 months or more if kept in the shade. To check simply take a look and a whiff. White yeast on the surface is good. The mixture should have a sweet smell, if it is rank then chuck it out.

[RedBullHorn]

I agree and had previously stated that the best form of EM comes straight from the original bottle. Just pour it in for optimum result.

Tips for those of you who are not familiar with EM usage...

The purpose of mixing EM with molasses is to mutiply the LAB (Live Active Bacteria) as it feed on the sugar in the brew (for economical reason) thus the name EM-A (Effective Micro organism - Activation) Also known as the expansion process.

Village school projects will have teachers teaching pupils the effectiveness of EM breaking down and degrading organic materials. To show examples to pupils, they were taught to put in bananas, oranges peel and even paddy straws. Just to show them the effects of EM doing its work and recording the degrading stages weekly, very much like the work of PE/EF earthworms.

The lessons were then pass on to educate agriculture farmer to solve the the problem created by "slash and burn" with this option - the "EM and plough" method, but farmers have a habit of keeping EM-A brew way pass their expiry period. So to solve this problem, they were then taught to do the pupils way by throwing in some bananas peels or other fruit waste. This act as an indication so they will have to use their brew before the peels waste are totally degraded.

Pupils and farmers were also taught to do EM mudball - Bokashi

The fish farmer version of Bokashi are usually made from Ram (rice husk) mixing with small amount of mud for firmness. Pla Nin feed on the supplement ram in the pond.

Two bottle of Lao Khao was used and consumed with the village Science teacher in the process of getting him to discuss the above mention about 5 years ago as i have no clue about the wonders of EM back then.

Edited July 29, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ray23]

Well I have an pond with no fish in it right now. It more then likely will stay that way till I find some Pla Mor ( not easy)

Our fry supplier is trying to track down some for us, he not even sure that he can find them. If he does it will be at least a week. So it seems this would be the best time to hit it with EM.

Is there a Thai word for EM?

Or am I way off base here?

Going back to Pla Nin, for a second, we have fish in that pond, would I need to make the balls to use it in that pond or can I apply it directly to the water surface.

I have to admit this is one heck of hobby, never stop learning

[RedBullHorn]

Google EM mudball - Bokashi

Thai also call it EM.

Edited July 29, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ray23]

will do thanks

[ozzydom]

So as not to hi-jack RBH,s catfish thread I will give this thread a bump,

Dancealot ,I will post some pics when I get a chance.

ray, no sign yet of koong ,which is not unusual.

We are flat out at the moment,huge amount of rain last 3 days and nights and the river has burst its banks.so we are on flood alert. Been stringing the safety fence in case it breaches our ponds bung walls.

Wifes niece,thought fish farming was a cinch so she did 2 x 1rai ponds next door to us problem was they made the bung walls 2 metres lower than the river embankment,result......10,000 Pla Nin 100-400 gram now in the river much to the delight of the villagers who are now in their dozens happily filling their coffers with their lift nets.

I designed our ponds to all overflow through strainers into the big pond which is 1.6 rai and 4 metres deep in the centre ,so 2x 3inch pumps have been going 24/7 to leave capacity for the overflow.

Its only 2 weeks ago the ponds were so hot and river level so low I had to instal 2 new ring aerator systems to keep our fish going, talk about "from the sublime to the ridiculous"

Edited July 31, 2013 by ozzydom

[ray23]

When I installed my ponds I was meter above the surrounding farm levels added two eight inch pipes in case of overflow. So far in the Udon area really have been getting rain in the right amounts. Like you I had to add aerator systems and now have nine outlets and two pumps going.

The water treatment that you and RBH managed to save enough for this years crop. They are small so Missed my advantage of having a full year for them to grow. This year I want to try the EM mudballs, befoer I get into that time frame again.

When you find the EM do you find it in the fish supply place and is it marked EM?

That research led me to a location that talked about using it for compost. In that they talked about using wheat mill. I was wondering if that could be used with a combination of Lom and mud to make the balls. The other things I wondered was does it have any effect of Algae growth.

Did ya get enough shrimp for the Barbie. I was just by there, I should have stopped and asked.

I have 6.5 H.P gas pump that is sitting at the moment if you need to borrow it come and get it,

[ozzydom]

When I installed my ponds I was meter above the surrounding farm levels added two eight inch pipes in case of overflow. So far in the Udon area really have been getting rain in the right amounts. Like you I had to add aerator systems and now have nine outlets and two pumps going.

The water treatment that you and RBH managed to save enough for this years crop. They are small so Missed my advantage of having a full year for them to grow. This year I want to try the EM mudballs, befoer I get into that time frame again.

When you find the EM do you find it in the fish supply place and is it marked EM?

That research led me to a location that talked about using it for compost. In that they talked about using wheat mill. I was wondering if that could be used with a combination of Lom and mud to make the balls. The other things I wondered was does it have any effect of Algae growth.

Did ya get enough shrimp for the Barbie. I was just by there, I should have stopped and asked.

I have 6.5 H.P gas pump that is sitting at the moment if you need to borrow it come and get it,

Hi Ray, any of the shops that sell farm chemicals ,stock feed etc carry EM and mollasses.

We harvest the shrimp at the same time as the fish.

Just remembered, Global house stock EM

[ray23]

Thanks Dom.

[IsaanAussie]

I agree and had previously stated that the best form of EM comes straight from the original bottle. Just pour it in for optimum result.

Tips for those of you who are not familiar with EM usage...

The purpose of mixing EM with molasses is to mutiply the LAB (Live Active Bacteria) as it feed on the sugar in the brew (for economical reason) thus the name EM-A (Effective Micro organism - Activation) Also known as the expansion process.

Village school projects will have teachers teaching pupils the effectiveness of EM breaking down and degrading organic materials. To show examples to pupils, they were taught to put in bananas, oranges peel and even paddy straws. Just to show them the effects of EM doing its work and recording the degrading stages weekly, very much like the work of PE/EF earthworms.

The lessons were then pass on to educate agriculture farmer to solve the the problem created by "slash and burn" with this option - the "EM and plough" method, but farmers have a habit of keeping EM-A brew way pass their expiry period. So to solve this problem, they were then taught to do the pupils way by throwing in some bananas peels or other fruit waste. This act as an indication so they will have to use their brew before the peels waste are totally degraded.

Pupils and farmers were also taught to do EM mudball - Bokashi

The fish farmer version of Bokashi are usually made from Ram (rice husk) mixing with small amount of mud for firmness. Pla Nin feed on the supplement ram in the pond.

Two bottle of Lao Khao was used and consumed with the village Science teacher in the process of getting him to discuss the above mention about 5 years ago as i have no clue about the wonders of EM back then.

RBH, go back and ask the teacher again "without the Lao whiskey". LAB is Lactic Acid Bacteria, and EM-A is Extended Effective Micro-organisms, EM-1 is the mother culture. Ram is the bran not the husk. Mudballs are not really bokashi, they are mud mixed with a form of bokashi. Now the molasses, it is added to LAB to stabilise it extending its shelf life under anaerobic conditions. When water and air is added the EM is activated. The purpose is not to multiply the LAB but the fungal microbes, they eat the sugars but multiple slowly. Confused yet? Well the original commercial EM is not just LAB, it also contains photosynthetic bacteria and forms of fungi. The genuine EM is made here under licence to EMRO Japan. There are a number of local companies copying the original model. There are also other brews of benefical microbes not just those based on LAB.

Ray, don't use the mudballs technique it is a waste of time if you let them dry out. The LAB will die. The fungal growth that results from bokashi making will survive in a dormant state and revive in water but fish do not have root systems or leaves so they will be of little use. All the mudballs used in the Bangkok floods were completely ineffective. At above 30 to 40% moisture the LAB will survive but the mudball will not. To use them correctly you will need to dry them completely but put them in a LAB solution to soak before you use them. The balls float when put in and are ready when they sink. Leave them too long and you are back to mud.

Just try to spread the EM as I suggested at the top of this page.

[IsaanAussie]

Oh yeah, you do not get LAB from bananas. Lactic Acid is normally associated with milk. The pure cultures smell as you would expect, like yogurt, what I call scientifically sick milk. Lactic acid bacteria is present in the environment and you can culture it using many different medias, much as you do with mushrooms. The easiest one here is to start with the wash water from your pre rice cooking.

[RedBullHorn]

dam_n ! Looks like i only got half of my liquor worth

Oh well~ It is expected.

IA - My turn to troll.

Edited July 31, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[RedBullHorn]

Double post...again~

Edited July 31, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[RedBullHorn]

Triple post...damn Internet Explorer

Edited July 31, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[RedBullHorn]

.

Edited July 31, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[IsaanAussie]

No problems RBH.

[ray23]

Ok guys 64 dollar question can you just put the EM in the pond if fish are present?

actually I think that was already answered. It sounds to me like you would use the spray method the with an active pond.

Straight in if no fish are present.

Am I close guys?

Edited August 1, 2013 by ray23

[IsaanAussie]

Ok guys 64 dollar question can you just put the EM in the pond if fish are present?

actually I think that was already answered. It sounds to me like you would use the spray method the with an active pond.

Straight in if no fish are present.

Am I close guys?

Ray, it will not harm the fish as long as you do not just pour it in one spot and there happens to be a fish there. Even then it will dilute pretty quickly. It is acidic with a pH of 3.5 of less. I spray it because I can spread it evenly and further out over the pond. The dosage rate of 1 litre per 700sq metres should be a starting point. Lets say you have a smell issue indicating nitrogen in one of other form. If it persists the next day repeat the dose each day until the issue is solved. EM will not aerate your pond but if you can get a balanced condition it will take care of most of the other issues. In animals and fish the lactic acid bacteria accumulate in the digestive tract living off the else wise undigested protein (nitrogen). For the fish it increases the protein uptake, so the fish grows faster, shits less nitrogen, therefore the wastes cause less issue.

Your ponds are small if I remember so if you put 1/4 of a litre in a bucket of water and chucked across the surface 4 times from four different spots, you are done on a 700 sq metre pond.

I also use EM at 1 in 500 in water on my mushrooms and spray the rooms every few days. It makes a difference to the mushrooms and prevents moulds and contamination.

[IsaanAussie]

Ok guys 64 dollar question can you just put the EM in the pond if fish are present?

actually I think that was already answered. It sounds to me like you would use the spray method the with an active pond.

Straight in if no fish are present.

Am I close guys?

Ray, it will not harm the fish as long as you do not just pour it in one spot and there happens to be a fish there. Even then it will dilute pretty quickly. It is acidic with a pH of 3.5 of less. I spray it because I can spread it evenly and further out over the pond. The dosage rate of 1 litre per 700sq metres should be a starting point. Lets say you have a smell issue indicating nitrogen in one of other form. If it persists the next day repeat the dose each day until the issue is solved. EM will not aerate your pond but if you can get a balanced condition it will take care of most of the other issues. In animals and fish the lactic acid bacteria accumulate in the digestive tract living off the else wise undigested protein (nitrogen). For the fish it increases the protein uptake, so the fish grows faster, shits less nitrogen, therefore the wastes cause less issue.

Your ponds are small if I remember so if you put 1/4 of a litre in a bucket of water and chucked across the surface 4 times from four different spots, you are done on a 700 sq metre pond.

I also use EM at 1 in 500 in water on my mushrooms and spray the rooms every few days. It makes a difference to the mushrooms and prevents moulds and contamination.

[ray23]

That's great easy to use. I don't have an odor yet. So I will start now. It is good thing Dom Mentioned Global it was the only place I could find it. Surprising that the fish supply places here don't have it, we tried three different places before we went to Global. Didn't see anything that resembled molasses

Got a 1,000 Pla Mor today so that adventure is under way.