Thailand's Legal Team Accuses Cambodia Of Doctoring Preah Vihear Maps

[webfact]

Cambodia 'altering maps'
Supalak Ganjanakhundee
The Nation
The Hague


A group of Thai nationalists, aiming to hoist Thai flags in areas around Preah Vihear Temple in Si Sa Ket, confront security officials blocking their path.

Thai team: P Penh selective in its use of documents

THE HAGUE: -- Testifying at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) yesterday, Thailand's legal team rejected Cambodia's allegation that Bangkok had made a "unilateral delimitation" of the vicinity of the Preah Vihear temple, and accused Cambodia of doctoring maps submitted to the court.

The Thai government fully implemented the court's 1962 judgement, and this implementation was recognised by then Prince Norodom Sihanouk, Cambodia's leader at the time, when he visited the temple shortly after the judgement, said Thai agent Virachai Plasai.

"But now we are told, 50 years later, that this recognition was false," Virachai told the court yesterday.

The ICJ ruled in 1962 that Preah Vihear Temple is situated on territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia and ordered Thailand to withdraw troops from the temple and its vicinity.

Responding to the testimony, Cambodian Foreign Minister Hor Namhong said the facts put forward in the Thai presentation were wrong. He said the Thai team presented many maps, but the map used the its 1962 judgement is the Annex I map. Much of the material presented by Thailand was unnecessary, he said.

Cambodia on Monday said the right way to determine the temple's "vicinity" is to follow the lines on a French map of 1:200,000 scale. Virachai argued that Cambodia saw nothing wrong with Thailand's actions until 2007, when Phnom Penh wanted additional areas adjacent to the temple to be included in the inscription of Preah Vihear Temple as a World Heritage site.

According to Virachai, the disputed 4.6 sq km area was not at the core of the conflict in the previous case, and is larger than the area considered to be the vicinity of the temple in accordance with the second paragraph of the operative clause of the original judgement.

A map expert on the Thai legal team, Alina Miron, explained to the court that the dispute over the 4.6 square kilometres reflects the fact that different lines occur on different maps, which have been reproduced for different purposes.

Besides the Annex I map referred to by Cambodia, Miron showed the court that there were as many as 59 other maps and sketch maps brought before the court during the trial more than half a century ago.

Cambodia had ignored many maps and did not show a genuine version of Annex I to the court this time, she said. The Annex I map was used in the previous trial simply to demonstrate that Preah Vihear is situated on the Cambodian side, but this time Cambodia has asked the court to use the map for the purposes of demarcating the border itself, she said.

Map expert's points

- Both countries submitted 59 maps to the court in 1959-1960, but Cambodia focused on Annex I.

- The overlapping area of 4.6 square km did not exist in the previous case, and the new disputed area of 4.6 square km is the result of reproducting the Annex I map

- Many versions of Annex I maps express different boundary lines

- Lines on old maps cannot be transformed into lines on modern maps.


-- The Nation 2013-04-18

[virtualtraveller]

Cambodians are tricky, the ICJ should not overlook this. Just look at their conduct in the past few years vis-à-vis the starting of border spats, the hosting of a fugitive criminal to stoke political tension, Hun Sen's remarks about Abhisit, and of course let's not forget the burning down of the Thai embassy in 2003.

[sjjmmi]

Waste of time and money as both side cannot lose face here

[DLock]

If only the ICJ was more like a Thai Land Office - where a thick brown envelope could solve all these problems.

[webfact]

Thailand satisfied with legal team statement on Preah Vihear case
By English News



The HAGUE, April 18 -- Thai Deputy Prime Minister/Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul expressed satisfaction with the Thai legal team's statement delivery to the International Court of Justice (ICJ) during a hearing on the Preah Vihear temple dispute at The Hague, the Netherlands.

Mr Surapong said that what Thailand argued in the Court on Wednesday closely follows the approach prepared in advance, which was to request the Court to dismiss Cambodia’s request for interpretation of the 1962 judgment.

But if the Court finds Cambodia’s request admissible, he said, it should decide that there is no reason to interpret the judgment, as the judgment is clear and Thailand has already implemented all the obligations contained therein.

Thailand's statement on Wednesday was the first round of the country's presentation of oral arguments to the World Court in the public hearings following the Cambodian verbal statement on Monday.

Thailand's legal team, led by Thai ambassador to the Netherlands Virachai Plasai, rejected Cambodia's allegation that Thailand had made a "unilateral delimitation" of the vicinity of the Preah Vihear temple, and accused Cambodia of falsifying maps submitted to the court.

The Thai legal team also argued during the testimony that the territorial claim over an area of 4.6 square kilometres was new and arose from Cambodia’s wish to inscribe the Temple on the World Heritage List.

The line adopted by Thailand’s Council of Ministers in 1962 marks an area that corresponds to the “vicinity” of the temple in the 1962 judgment. Cambodia understood and accepted this as it never protested that Thailand had not withdrawn its forces from that area.

After the conclusion by the Thai side, Judge Abdulqawi Ahmed Yusuf from Somalia asked Thailand and Cambodia to submit their own geographic coordinates of the area in the temple's vicinity on their own maps to the court before April 26.

The judge also asked the two countries to present only new information at the second round of hearings which begins today.

Thailand's foreign lawyers' performances in court won much praise from many Thais who closely monitored the oral statement . They particularly showed appreciation of Romanian lawyer Alina Miron who explained the maps of the Thai-Cambodian border. (MCOT online news)

-- TNA 2013-04-18

[apetley]

"......lines on old maps cannot be transformed into lines on new maps".

If that is one of the so called Thai experts talking I would be seriously worried about the Thai case.

I worked for Ordnance Survey, UK's National Mapping Agency, for over 24 years and it is relatively straightforward to establish continuity of data over different map sets. In fact a simple walk in the field with the relavant maps is all that would normally be required.

[animatic]

'Yes, we said something good.'

'It matched the party line we like.'

Of course that is not necessarily an argument the court will find valid.

There are maps valid at the beginning of the dispute, and since it was not adequately resolved, any maps since then would be considered invalid or drawn in a particularly partisan manner and thus continue the impasse that the court is in charge of.

Edited April 18, 2013 by animatic

[waza]

here where the trouble started.................

Another fine mess you got Thailand in Thaksin.

[Thai at Heart]

here where the trouble started.................

cambodia Thailand.jpg

Another fine mess you got Thailand in Thaksin.

Oh noooo. Not a paper signed by both sides that they agree.

[kjun12]

The Thais are behaving like children about this, but this is regular for Thais. They talk on and on and get as far from the original topic as possible. For God's sake, don't tell the truth. Thai's are full of crap about this and many issues.

[khunken]

The Thais are behaving like children about this, but this is regular for Thais. They talk on and on and get as far from the original topic as possible. For God's sake, don't tell the truth. Thai's are full of crap about this and many issues.

Tell us why.

Is Cambodia a paragon of truth? Hun Sen?

There are two sides to this and both sides have behaved badly. I do hope the ICJ can find a solution that allows both sides to claim some sort of victory. It's possible.

[Thai at Heart]

The Thais are behaving like children about this, but this is regular for Thais. They talk on and on and get as far from the original topic as possible. For God's sake, don't tell the truth. Thai's are full of crap about this and many issues.

Tell us why.

Is Cambodia a paragon of truth? Hun Sen?

There are two sides to this and both sides have behaved badly. I do hope the ICJ can find a solution that allows both sides to claim some sort of victory. It's possible.

I would say virtually impossible, and I hope the translations we are reading don't convey the entire Thai argument because they don't sound very convincing.

[khunken]

The Thais are behaving like children about this, but this is regular for Thais. They talk on and on and get as far from the original topic as possible. For God's sake, don't tell the truth. Thai's are full of crap about this and many issues.

Tell us why.

Is Cambodia a paragon of truth? Hun Sen?

There are two sides to this and both sides have behaved badly. I do hope the ICJ can find a solution that allows both sides to claim some sort of victory. It's possible.

I would say virtually impossible, and I hope the translations we are reading don't convey the entire Thai argument because they don't sound very convincing.

It's not impossible. The land could be divided allowing access to the temple from the Thai side - is just one possibility.

As the dispute is part legal & part political, the findings may well put more emphasis on the political side of things in order not to end up being one-sided. IMO of course.

[Thai at Heart]

The Thais are behaving like children about this, but this is regular for Thais. They talk on and on and get as far from the original topic as possible. For God's sake, don't tell the truth. Thai's are full of crap about this and many issues.

Tell us why.

Is Cambodia a paragon of truth? Hun Sen?

There are two sides to this and both sides have behaved badly. I do hope the ICJ can find a solution that allows both sides to claim some sort of victory. It's possible.

I would say virtually impossible, and I hope the translations we are reading don't convey the entire Thai argument because they don't sound very convincing.

It's not impossible. The land could be divided allowing access to the temple from the Thai side - is just one possibility.

As the dispute is part legal & part political, the findings may well put more emphasis on the political side of things in order not to end up being one-sided. IMO of course.

Let's see. I could believe that the Thai side won't accept a shared agreement. But I don't read the Cambodian papers so have no knowledge of how seriously they are taking this case.

[whybother]

I would say virtually impossible, and I hope the translations we are reading don't convey the entire Thai argument because they don't sound very convincing.

It's not impossible. The land could be divided allowing access to the temple from the Thai side - is just one possibility.

As the dispute is part legal & part political, the findings may well put more emphasis on the political side of things in order not to end up being one-sided. IMO of course.

There are two possible outcomes of this case:

- The court rules in favour of Cambodia, stating that the 1962 decision includes the 4.6 km2.

- The court rules in favour of Thailand, stating that the 1962 decision does not include the 4.6 km2.

One way, the land becomes Cambodia. The other way, the ownership of land stays in dispute.

Edited April 18, 2013 by whybother

[Thai at Heart]

I would say virtually impossible, and I hope the translations we are reading don't convey the entire Thai argument because they don't sound very convincing.

It's not impossible. The land could be divided allowing access to the temple from the Thai side - is just one possibility.

As the dispute is part legal & part political, the findings may well put more emphasis on the political side of things in order not to end up being one-sided. IMO of course.

There are two possible outcomes of this case:

- The court rules in favour of Cambodia, stating that the 1962 decision includes the 4.6 km2.

- The court rules in favour of Thailand, stating that the 1962 decision does not include the 4.6 km2.

One way, the land becomes Cambodia. The other way, the ownership of land stays in dispute.

I agree, the court will not compel them to agree to share. That is not what proper courts do. They judge clearly

[annabel]

Oye...! This is so ridiculous .. Is this really worth all of this hullabaloo ! There are so many other important pressing issues in the world...!! Really .. Like who cares which country this place belongs to ... Oh ! Is there a lot of money involved here from the tourists ...?? Ha !! So that is the reason ...?? Jeeezzz!!

It's not impossible. The land could be divided allowing access to the temple from the Thai side - is just one possibility.

As the dispute is part legal & part political, the findings may well put more emphasis on the political side of things in order not to end up being one-sided. IMO of course.

Let's see. I could believe that the Thai side won't accept a shared agreement. But I don't read the Cambodian papers so have no knowledge of how seriously they are taking this case.

[Potosi]

Can somebody please tell the Thai activists, that's not a Thai flag on the pic, it's the French one upside down. It's blue, white, red from the left. Stupid. And what's this regiment of bodies on a dirt road facing a motor vehicle? Put a tank there instead.

[rubl]

With all positive statements on the situation and their own performance, negative statements on the Cambodian performance, possible misconduct, etc., etc. it would almost look like the Thai delegation is building up to inciting the Thai population in general and certain nationalists in particular. IMHO

[webfact]

PREAH VIHEAR CONTROVERSY
Cambodia-backed map was 'never endorsed'
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Previous governments led by the Thai Rak Thai and People Power parties never accepted the 1:200,000-scale map used by Cambodia to make its case to the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the Preah Vihear dispute, a legal adviser to former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra said yesterday.

Full story: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/633744-preah-vihear-cambodia-backed-map-was-never-endorsed-by-thai-rak-thai-and-people-power-parties/

[waza]

Interrelation between secret oil agreement and PreahVihear Temple issue (2)

In order to ensure a smooth implementation of the above-exposed secret oil agreement, Thaksin promised Hun Sen to let the Cambodian government deal, as it pleases, with the PreahVihearTemple, including registering the Temple as a World Heritage site with UNESCO. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/khmerintelligence/message/722

[ZhouZhou]

here where the trouble started.................

cambodia Thailand.jpg

Another fine mess you got Thailand in Thaksin.

That was all fine. UNESCO heritage - good and nice. in bi national agreement.

Abhisit in his obsession and his ultra nationalistic friends used it to create trouble.

[PoodMaiDai]

"......lines on old maps cannot be transformed into lines on new maps". If that is one of the so called Thai experts talking I would be seriously worried about the Thai case. I worked for Ordnance Survey, UK's National Mapping Agency, for over 24 years and it is relatively straightforward to establish continuity of data over different map sets. In fact a simple walk in the field with the relavant maps is all that would normally be required.

There is no telling what levels of buffoonery they will sink to in order to save face.