Culture Clash Pt II

[ourmanflint]

I thought I'd post this here as there was such an excellent thread on "toplessness" ie `'Culture Clash I"...

http://www.dailyexpress.com.my/news.cfm?NewsID=41250

PUTRAJAYA: The local government has the power to establish by-laws to prosecute citizens who behave in a disorderly manner in public, the Federal Court ruled Tuesday.

Chief Justice Tun Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim, together with Federal Court judges Datuk Alauddin Sheriff and Datuk Richard Malanjum, unanimously held that the Datuk Bandar of Kuala Lumpur (DBKL) was correct to charge two students for behaving indecently by hugging and kissing at the Kuala Lumpur City Centre Park.

The court ruled that Section 8(1) of the Park By-Laws, the section invoked by the Datuk Bandar to punish persons caught behaving indecently in public was constitutional.

Following the ruling, two students, Ooi Kean Thong, 24, and Siow Ai Wei, 22, will have to defend themselves against the charge levelled against them at the Kuala Lumpur City Hall Court.

Their case is fixed for mention on June 1. Both had pleaded not guilty to committing the offence at the park at 5.20pm on Aug 2, 2003. If convicted, they could be fined not exceeding RM2,000 or jailed up to a year, or both.

Ahmad Fairuz said the (Federal) court's answer to constitutional question referred to them, whether Section 8(1) is ultra vires the Local Government Act 1976 and infringed Article 5(1) of the Federal Constitutional (relating to freedom of life) was in the negative.

The two students had challenged the validity of Section 8(1) contending that the Local Government Act 1976 which is the parent act governing local authorities did not empower the Datuk Bandar to make local by-laws on matters of decency.

They alleged that they were given a summons because they refused to bribe the enforcement officers. In January last year, the two officers pleaded not guilty to corruption charges in the Sessions Court and their case is pending.

Counsel S. Selvam, for the students, submitted Tuesday that Datuk Bandar had failed to take into consideration the fact that Malaysia was a multiracial country and that the act of hugging and kissing was an expression of love which should be encouraged.

"The students should be given freedom to live but there was serious infringement by the Datuk Bandar of the two students' fundamental liberty and constitutional rights," he said.

Ahmad Fairuz said: "So, they should be given freedom to live as they like? The constitution allows all citizens to do that (hugging and kissing) even by the roadside, in public park?

"In England, those acts are acceptable to the people in that country but is kissing and hugging acceptable to Malaysian citizens?. Is the act according to the morality of the Asian people?"

Selvam replied that there was nothing wrong with hugging and kissing because it was an act to express their love. He said that the Datuk Bandar had created a law which was prejudicial and caused hardship to both students and this was unfair.

Deputy Public Prosecutor Manoj Kurup argued that it should be left to the trial judge to decide whether the act of hugging and kissing was a disorderly behaviour.

He said there was no need to have specific words in the act to legislate by-laws for a specific purpose. - Bernama

So regarding many peoples opinion that as tourists we should just accept "Asian customs", don't you think that we can have a beneficial impact in some very specific areas, this being one of them! Or do you think that Kissing & Hugging in public is an inappropriate act??

Being young and in love is one of the most magical things that can happen in a persons life, to legislate against what is our natural and normal behaviour is crazy...... I personally think these laws and customs are nonsensical, falsely modest and serve no use whatsoever.... but maybe I'm weird!!!

Edited April 5, 2006 by ourmanflint

[khall64au]

Malaysia is a Muslim state. Indonesia is considering the same 'laws'. Thai people, from my limited understanding do not publicly display affection as the norm. "Weird" or not Mars Bar, these are real cultural practices in these parts and what say do we westerners have? When in Rome.......?!

[ourmanflint]

No takers..... I guess I must be out on my own on this one then!! It wouldn't be the first time and I t will not be the last!!

Maybe after I've been in the sun for a while I'd be chilled out enough that this kind of thing wouldn't upset me..... but I really doubt it!!

adios!!

Edited April 8, 2006 by ourmanflint

[sbk]

Just not really sure how you see it related to Thailand is all. Malaysia, is, after all, a different country with a very different culture.

[Donz]

dam someone is actually going to court over it??

I thought this law was the same as J-walking, yeah its a law but nobody enforces it. Although i have been warned once.

Hugging is ok, kissing as in a quick peck is fine in my books.

But full on pashing probaly should be kept more private.

[ourmanflint]

Just not really sure how you see it related to Thailand is all. Malaysia, is, after all, a different country with a very different culture.

It was because I have read often here that similar things are taboo throughout Thailand as well, whilst not actually being illegal, they certainly seem to be frowned on! Not holding hands and it seems any public displays of affection have been cited often as being the "thai way". From my own limited personal experience, I don't recall seeing many thais holding hands apart from boys and men funnily enough!

So a couple of things come to mind, one being the Thai attitude to the many farang walking around holding hands and kissing ( much more on the islands especially after a big party), and wether you all as residents have stopped behaving in such a manner to "fit in" as it where....

and if so why???? After all this is not quite the same as going topless ( which is why I named the thread Culture Clash Pt2 ) is it? I suppose I just didn't understand the way many people thought on that other thread, in essence saying that as farangs we have to fit in in every way and respect the Thai way of life. I just can't agree that we should have to, I think that incoming minority cultures, just as they have all over the world, can have a beneficial effect on a society in some small ways by bringing with them their own customs and manners, I'm not advocating wholesale culture overhaul here, but I think by keeping some of our more liberal views and practices such as being young and love, and being able to show that to all and sundry without fear of societies disproval, we can have some small beneficial effect.

[Donz]

Just not really sure how you see it related to Thailand is all. Malaysia, is, after all, a different country with a very different culture.

It was because I have read often here that similar things are taboo throughout Thailand as well, whilst not actually being illegal, they certainly seem to be frowned on! Not holding hands and it seems any public displays of affection have been cited often as being the "thai way". From my own limited personal experience, I don't recall seeing many thais holding hands apart from boys and men funnily enough!

So a couple of things come to mind, one being the Thai attitude to the many farang walking around holding hands and kissing ( much more on the islands especially after a big party), and wether you all as residents have stopped behaving in such a manner to "fit in" as it where....

and if so why???? After all this is not quite the same as going topless ( which is why I named the thread Culture Clash Pt2 ) is it? I suppose I just didn't understand the way many people thought on that other thread, in essence saying that as farangs we have to fit in in every way and respect the Thai way of life. I just can't agree that we should have to, I think that incoming minority cultures, just as they have all over the world, can have a beneficial effect on a society in some small ways by bringing with them their own customs and manners, I'm not advocating wholesale culture overhaul here, but I think by keeping some of our more liberal views and practices such as being young and love, and being able to show that to all and sundry without fear of societies disproval, we can have some small beneficial effect.

In the tourist places i see it as no problem, most thai's know about farangs holding hands and hugging. The pashing is a different thing IMO.

But not all Thai's are familiar with the foreigners way of hugging etc. So naturally some will look at it as being disrespectful. But you cant satify everyone.

[robitusson]

I thought I'd post this here as there was such an excellent thread on "toplessness" ie `'Culture Clash I"...

http://www.dailyexpress.com.my/news.cfm?NewsID=41250

PUTRAJAYA: The local government has the power to establish by-laws to prosecute citizens who behave in a disorderly manner in public, the Federal Court ruled Tuesday.

Chief Justice Tun Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim, together with Federal Court judges Datuk Alauddin Sheriff and Datuk Richard Malanjum, unanimously held that the Datuk Bandar of Kuala Lumpur (DBKL) was correct to charge two students for behaving indecently by hugging and kissing at the Kuala Lumpur City Centre Park.

The court ruled that Section 8(1) of the Park By-Laws, the section invoked by the Datuk Bandar to punish persons caught behaving indecently in public was constitutional.

Following the ruling, two students, Ooi Kean Thong, 24, and Siow Ai Wei, 22, will have to defend themselves against the charge levelled against them at the Kuala Lumpur City Hall Court.

Their case is fixed for mention on June 1. Both had pleaded not guilty to committing the offence at the park at 5.20pm on Aug 2, 2003. If convicted, they could be fined not exceeding RM2,000 or jailed up to a year, or both.

Ahmad Fairuz said the (Federal) court's answer to constitutional question referred to them, whether Section 8(1) is ultra vires the Local Government Act 1976 and infringed Article 5(1) of the Federal Constitutional (relating to freedom of life) was in the negative.

The two students had challenged the validity of Section 8(1) contending that the Local Government Act 1976 which is the parent act governing local authorities did not empower the Datuk Bandar to make local by-laws on matters of decency.

They alleged that they were given a summons because they refused to bribe the enforcement officers. In January last year, the two officers pleaded not guilty to corruption charges in the Sessions Court and their case is pending.

Counsel S. Selvam, for the students, submitted Tuesday that Datuk Bandar had failed to take into consideration the fact that Malaysia was a multiracial country and that the act of hugging and kissing was an expression of love which should be encouraged.

"The students should be given freedom to live but there was serious infringement by the Datuk Bandar of the two students' fundamental liberty and constitutional rights," he said.

Ahmad Fairuz said: "So, they should be given freedom to live as they like? The constitution allows all citizens to do that (hugging and kissing) even by the roadside, in public park?

"In England, those acts are acceptable to the people in that country but is kissing and hugging acceptable to Malaysian citizens?. Is the act according to the morality of the Asian people?"

Selvam replied that there was nothing wrong with hugging and kissing because it was an act to express their love. He said that the Datuk Bandar had created a law which was prejudicial and caused hardship to both students and this was unfair.

Deputy Public Prosecutor Manoj Kurup argued that it should be left to the trial judge to decide whether the act of hugging and kissing was a disorderly behaviour.

He said there was no need to have specific words in the act to legislate by-laws for a specific purpose. - Bernama

So regarding many peoples opinion that as tourists we should just accept "Asian customs", don't you think that we can have a beneficial impact in some very specific areas, this being one of them! Or do you think that Kissing & Hugging in public is an inappropriate act??

Being young and in love is one of the most magical things that can happen in a persons life, to legislate against what is our natural and normal behaviour is crazy...... I personally think these laws and customs are nonsensical, falsely modest and serve no use whatsoever.... but maybe I'm weird!!!

Interesting...but why is this in the Ladies section? This concerns everyone surely?

[britmaveric]

Affection in public is fine as long as its not overboard and of course varies on the environment you are in. Club/Disco with alcohol involved - dare say you'll fine a lot of affection being spread around.

[Patsycat]

Donz,

What is "pashing"?!

[Donz]

Its a tonguey

[Patsycat]

AAAAH - French Kissing!!!

[ourmanflint]

A bit off topic.... well not really!!! but do Thais kiss the same way we do... mouth to mouth.. I thought I read somewhere they kiss differently... or am i imagining it.. sometimes I just can't decide if I have made something up or not.... I think it's old age!

[britmaveric]

A bit off topic.... well not really!!! but do Thais kiss the same way we do... mouth to mouth.. I thought I read somewhere they kiss differently... or am i imagining it.. sometimes I just can't decide if I have made something up or not.... I think it's old age!

Sniff kiss? However they do kiss western style too!!!

[alexth]

Affection in public is fine as long as its not overboard and of course varies on the environment you are in. Club/Disco with alcohol involved - dare say you'll fine a lot of affection being spread around.

100%agree, showing some little affection in public is one, overdoing it is anotherone, thinking about it, this is not a bad education, afterall, bak in Europe, I've seen teenagers getting laid on the club's sofas and I'm telling you, even though im in y late 20's, I can't say that watching a live porn while while having my drink was exactly what I had in mind when I first came in

Europeans should learn something out of it...

Edited April 14, 2006 by alexth

[MishaMagic]

Affection in public is fine as long as its not overboard and of course varies on the environment you are in. Club/Disco with alcohol involved - dare say you'll fine a lot of affection being spread around.

100%agree, showing some little affection in public is one, overdoing it is anotherone, thinking about it, this is not a bad education, afterall, bak in Europe, I've seen teenagers getting laid on the club's sofas and I'm telling you, even though im in y late 20's, I can't say that watching a live porn while while having my drink was exactly what I had in mind when I first came in

Europeans should learn something out of it...

Really??? Which clubs???