Democrat Party Rebuilds Strength

[sushiman]

Dear people,

if you don't support the Democrats (or any opposition) during these weeks and months, you indirectly without maybe wanting it, are supporting one single party.

Please let us know a bit more clearly what is in the med-to longterm so good about

TRT?? Noone can tell me. The only experts I talk to, and read from (people how know about politics and economic cycles etc.) clearly warn Thailand from Thaksins short-minded politics, which has one goal, which we all know now.

You are telling us that the Democrats have no goal. What is the goal of TRT?

If you are honest, please dish up some goodies here, for the benefit and long-view for Thailand, so we all could get hungry for more...

Thaksinomics, I never understood, and I would never support, as it is short-term policy, and not med-to long term and was so clever installed with only one main goal; to keep the party growing and let noone interferre, with their benefits which are then coming along by staying in power and controlling nearly 100% of Thailand.

Thaksin proved himselve what these politics are for himselves, and now is trying to hold the camp, son noone can come and snick in to have a closer look.

How can his wealth with his companies (ups sorry his daughters and sons and maids companies) grow 4 x more (and don't forget during the bang in 97/98? he was the only one who made profits during this time) during a 5 year period were most companies couldnt' even double their profits? A bit an illusion to believe, he didn't do it with the help of his own party politics. Isn't that corrupt? It's even more, it's according Thai law against the rules that you do business while leading the country.

Didn't he just do that?

TRT ...what is it about?? (please don't tell me again helping the poor. Again did you read the figs, how many people are bankrupt and in dept, and didn't build up anything with this money but rather just spending it??).

Guys wake up and support the right party, before the sinking ship will sink whole Thailand.

I guess it's time for justice and change and more realistic politics for this country.

If they wouldn't fear justice, why will they not let it be checked, so people can understand more? Very clear, if you are honest if no replies are coming.

It will get worse but not better by suppressing, and locking up voices which are logical and are summed up on various fronts (forget about it's only the Democrats and PADs and The Nation and Bangkok post etc. etc.) again go and talk with most intulectuels in this country and read some Thai local newspapers, who are not afraid of telling the truth.

You guys (maybe with a sense of rightness from your side of view) are just looking back in the past and our supporting the poor, which maybe have some more pocket money "now" in their pockets. But my friends, how long do you think Thaksinomics will work, you really believe will be better off in let's say 5 years time? Is anyone helping them, to be more independent (guess the opposite is happening now, see also the FTA fears), which would be the best goal, instead of just shuffeling money to them, and making hospitals bankrupt and feed again their own companies with more profit.

By the way my girlfriend from Isaan was just complaing today, that the money they can lend makes no sense, as all prices gone so far up, that the money they have now more, the can buy less things. Most companies are owned by whom and are regulated from where? mhhhmmm interesting ...

I really don't get your point, why you (maybe indirectly for sure) support TRT?

Please explain with facts... but this time from the view point and with TRT?

What can and will they bring this country, do you believe?

I will be happy to read again in about 4 weeks, but now i'm off and need a clear

Talk-sin break.

Make a choice, but don't just say all is crap, will not help Thailand for sure this attitude (of course for the ones who can vote, or influence their surroundings) and continue also your good postings and info-snippets from all sorts of media.

Both sides could of course help each other, but TRT is more concentrating now on locking up people, this will be the next typical TRT move, to ensure power and corruption will continue, even on a bigger scale as they will get stronger unfortunatelly, as no one thought that they would misuse an oppostion election strike (again a stupid unneeded, election for only one purpose. Right?) and will brake all rules, and twist all laws, so they can now soon graps the whole cake alone.

You will see the political reforms will be 100% controlled and only approved by them.

Well done, I would say. If you support this...sorry... tricked again, I would say..

Good night I say for Thailand, if they don't change their own attitude and not try to clean up their own ship and finally approach other parties and people for the good of the country and start to be a real party, with multiple voices, and not only one voice nearly alone.

cheerio

take care

Sushiman

Edited April 15, 2006 by sushiman

[sushiman]

Have a good trip home

Thank you Lukamar, and hope you will be save back too.

Talk to you later!

cheerio

Sushiman

PS/ Try to see the division in the country, as a learning process. Eventually the corruption in the long term, will not win, as Thai people may get used to it, but they will never accept in the longterm on a too big scale.

Division if peacefully and done with talks, is Democracy at it's best. The more honest hardworking party will win, I hope. This will take some time, especially against Golliath

[sushiman]

POLITICS

Democrats seek direct tie to public after poll boycott

Party looks for ways to keep in touch with people, expects turbulence ahead

The Democrat Party will keep in touch with constituents by a series of public forums, having boycotted the recent election, its chief adviser Chuan Leekpai said yesterday.

"The Democrats will not be involved with the new House of Representatives. We expect to use non-parliamentary venues to communicate with the people," he said.

Chuan said he fully supported the boycott, adding that party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva had made the right decision not to help launder the misrule of Thai Rak Thai Party leader Thaksin Shinawatra.

"Without any House seat, the Democrats can still make their stand known on pertinent matters by speaking directly to the people instead of making speeches on the House floor," he said.

He said his party would not need the privilege of parliamentary immunity because the facts were the best legal shield against any attack on the party by the government.

Commenting on the outcome of the election, he said local politics would proceed through an uncharted and "strange" course because of complete parliamentary domination by the ruling party.

"Political tensions will probably escalate as the ruling party is trying to fill 500 House seats by dubious means," Chuan said.

He said he expected turbulence for the foreseeable future because those involved had yet to address the damage that had been done by Thaksin.

Although Thaksin agreed not to accept the post of prime minister in the new government, problems stemming from his misrule remain, he said.

For example, many independent organisations are under Thaksin's influence and no office-holders have resigned to pave the way for rehabilitation, he added.

With or without Thaksin, a faulty system lacking in checks and balances has not yet been put to rights, he said.

In the case of the National Counter Corruption Commission, many candidates for the job should have withdrawn from the nomination process because they know they have government backing, rendering them ineffective as graft-busters, he said.

In another development, Democrat deputy leader Alongkorn Pollabutr took a group of selected reporters to inspect the Beverly Hill housing estate on Chaeng Wattana Road.

Alongkorn said Thaksin's sister Yaowapha Wongsawat had allegedly exerted political influence to allow her daughter to acquire the estate at a cut-rate price.

The estate had a market value of Bt3 billion, he said, but Yaowapha allegedly helped her daughter Shinnisha Wongsawat to buy it for Bt950 million.

He said he would petition the NCCC to look into the matter in the next 10 days.

He also said he would alert the Anti Money Laundering Office and the Office of the Auditor-General to investigate whether Yaowapha had become unusually wealthy.

Source - The Nation - 16 April 2006

[jdinasia]

Let's hope that some steps are made to deal with checks and balances of power.abuse.cronyism.gov't contracts etcetc etc

[jdinasia]

Democrats offer to help

SUPAWADEE INTHAWONG

The Democrat party has offered to provide legal and financial assistance to three candidates from a little-known party who are facing legal action from the Election Commission (EC) after confessing they were hired to run in the April 2 general election in a southern province. Democrat secretary-general Suthep Thaugsuban said the party would pay the expenses for candidates Nipha Chanpor, Ratchanu Trangsri and Suvit Ob-oun, who represented the Progressive Democratic party, to fight the case in court.

The Democrats' offer follows a decision by the EC to dissolve the Progressive Democratic party and seek the prosecution of the three candidates.

The candidates earlier told the EC they were paid to run in Trang province.

Mr Suthep denied claims his party employed the three candidates to expose election fraud involving a major party. The Democrats wanted to help the three people unconditionally. The party would help anyone with evidence of poll fraud.

Mr Suthep lashed out at the EC's claim no evidence existed which could implicate a major party in the hiring of candidates to create a competition.

All election commissioners should resign if they are unable to bring the wrongdoers to justice, Mr Suthep said.

''If you think you can do nothing, just quit. You should not have challenged people to lodge a complaint if the commission was wrong. In my view, [EC chief] Pol Gen Wassana should be the first to resign.'' He submitted a letter to the EC chief and other commissioners asking them to look into the fact that many candidates from small parties who ran in the election were allowed to enter by-elections in other constituencies when the results of the April 2 polls were still not official.

Mr Suthep said the EC had created confusion in several southern constituencies. Some candidates who were disqualified by local election panels from running in Songkhla, Chumphon and Pattani were later found to have registered their candidacies for by-elections in Nakhon Si Thammarat, Surat Thani, Phatthalung and Phuket.

The confusion followed the EC's decision to allow unsuccessful April 2 candidates to run in new constituencies. The EC's act had violated the constitution and the election law, said Mr Suthep.

The Thai Ground, Pattana Chartthai and Progressive Democratic parties _which allegedly falsified documents to help their candidates in the previous round _ had candidates in the by-elections.

Some parties which did not contest the April 2 polls now had candidates in the by-elections _ People Power, Palang Dharma, Puen Kasetthai, Thai Chuay Thai, Green Party of Thailand, Siam and Better Life, Mr Suthep said.

=========

This is almost too funny to comment on. Demos report a group to the EC for falsifying documents and when the EC finds in the Demos favor and dissolve the party and charge the candidates the Demos offer to pay their legal bills and give them "financial assistance" and demand the resignation of the EC once again. ROTFLMAO. These guys deserve to be the Ex-Opposition or they are trying to cover something up so the charged candidates don't get to court and turn in the Demos as the masterminds.

Gotta love rampant speculation from .......

If there was in fact reasonable evidence that a MAJOR party had been involved in this fraud ... the party would be dissolved also .... would NOT be a good thing.

[jdinasia]

So, would you say "The Nation" is pro-Thaksin or anti-Thaksin?

Editorial policy seems to be pretty Anti-Thaksin ... but hel_l that could be because of all of Thaksin's lawsuits and quashing freedom of the press ... not to mention control of the rest of the media.

[Plus]

From the previous page:

I do have to disagree with you on your point that the 16 million votes for TRT shouldn't count because they came mainly from the poor, uneducated and possibly ill-informed peasant farmers of the north. Every free democracy on earth acknowledges that one mans vote is as good as anothers regardless of education standards or social class.

Two things:

- many of those 16 million votes were bought and so shouldn't be counted for anything, as every free democracy will readily acknowledge

- Thaksin was forced to resign becuase of his corruption. Election results had little to do with it - he resigned even though he passed his self-imposed 50% test

If the peasant farmers were ill-informed the democrats have to bear a lot of the burden of responsibility for that.

NO, the responsibility lies with the government that took complete control of the nation's media and denied air-time to any opposing views, including Democrats.

All the Democrats have to do is to get out there and swing 25% of the rural voters over and they would have a majority. Offering some incentive for the millions who abstained would also be of some advantage too. They failed to do that because they failed to consider the needs of the rural people. ... failure to put in the ground work in order to swing the rural vote and pick up some of the abstainers.

What on earth are you talking about? Democrats boycotted the elections - the were not swinging rural voters or picking up abstainers. Do you know that?

Unfortunately, just about all Thais have come to accept corruption in one form or another as a way of life in all levels of their society. They accept it but that doesn't mean they like it. I am sure just about all Thais would like to see an end to corruption...

Over ten millions of "no votes" and spoiled ballots were cast in protest against Thaksin's corruption, and they were listened to.

..however, for the poor there are more pressing immediate needs in their day to day life. Conversely, the more comfortable middle class Thais do not have to worry about losing the farm to a loan shark or selling their daughters into prostitution in order to feed the family. The middle class can have the luxury of pondering the ethics of the system of government. I am sure the rural poor would love to have the luxury of being in that position too. But right now, the rural people dont have that luxury. They are more concerned with things like basic health care, education for their kids and the ability to earn a livable income.

That might explain why middle class votes count for more in Thai society. People in power will start listening to rural voters if they start talking about the whole country's interests, not only about their basic needs. Don't also forget that virtually ALL rural NGOs are against Thaksin. That's what happens when rural folks start looking beyond the tips of their noses.

Certainly a lot of the rural poor are bad money managers as the poor in most countries usually are. This is not due to them being reckless, irresponsible people but rather due to poor education and little experience with money. Most of the rural poor are VERY hard working, kind hearted folk who worry about their kids future just as any other people do. They worry about basic health care, they worry about trying to improve productivity on the farm in order to gain the income to afford a better life.

To my knowledge there haven't been any TRT policies that concern improving productivity, only giving money and loans.

They worry about the family having to split up while some go to the city to find a decent paying job. They dont have time to worry about Thaksins family selling their shares to a Singapore company or if it was legal for them to dodge the tax on profits.

Again, that's why millions of their votes didn't count for much when Thaksin resigned.

TRT under Thaksin has recognized the needs of these rural voters and tapped into this huge reserve of democratic votes.

There was nothing democratic in how TRT gained those votes - media control, direct vote buying, using state officials and funds, bribery and so on. The list is too long to even remember.

The Democrats have failed to do this and will remain in opposition until they do.

On the contrary, one would hope that Democrats will NEVER "do this". It's TRT that should clean up its act, not Democrats who should engage in vote buying.

I believe the democrats have put the cart before the horse in trying to reform the constitution without the support of the majority of voters.

What are you talking about again? No one is opposing reforming the Constitution and TRT are right at the front there with Bhokin's proposal. What "support of the majority of voters" that is lacking in your opinion?

I think that most of us here agree that the democrats hold the moral high ground at the moment, but just being right isn't enough in a true democracy. You need to have the support of the people to bring about permanent change. And support of the majority of people, not just the educated elite minority.

I doubt there would be any farmers on Constitution reform commitee, or any farmers presenting their views on what and how should be changed. Until they don't have an opinion they are just pawns to make up numbers and won't be counted for much. If they don't have a "voice", they will not be "heard", or listened to. Removing all political discussion from public life is a sole TRT's responsibility. Farmers used to be very active under Democrat's government, and had "elite minority" and The Nation on their side.

Right at the moment the democrats have all their eggs in one basket. They are hoping for a big win in the courts that will vindicate their actions and bring about reform.

What are you talking about ecxactly, again? The only court win they expect is on registering candidates for April 23 by-elections, and it has nothing to do with any reform.

Things will drag on and there will be a lot of pressure on the courts to come to a decision and get the countries government functional again. Court decisions are likely to be expedient rather than idealogical based. And that will surely favour Thaksin and the TRT for the simple reason that they have the support of the vast majority of the countries voters.

Do you mean that Constitution Court will endorse forming an incomplete House where many constituencies are not represented? It might turn it into legal, but not legitimate. If an elected MP has only 10% support against 90% of "no votes" he is looking for trouble. People clearly didnt want TRT from Bangkok all the way down South.

It appears to me that the democrats have been outwitted by Thaksin who simply followed the most basic principles in the democratic process of going out and attracting the most votes.

Substitute "attracting" for "buying" and it will be correct. Do you support vote buying?

I think the democrats attempt at a coup (all be it a bloodless coup) is an outdated strategy that will be rejected in the courts and the military as well.

What coup? Are we talking about the same country? Coups are daily attempted in Phillipines, not here.

If Thaksin can hold the TRT together to weather this storm they will be stronger than ever and the democrats will have done the people of Thailand no favours.

PAD, and Democrats, will see to it that TRT doesn't get any stronger with Thaksin pulling strings in the background. PAD hasn't announced their strategies yet, wait until after holidays, but Democrats talk about destroying the system already.

When the democrats finally figure out that they need to get outside their intellectual think tanks and actually doing something to encourage the majority of people to vote for them (even the poor uneducated rural people), then maybe they will be in a position to bring about change.

Hold this talk until they actually participate in the elections, it's a but premature at the moment.

Lukamar, I have no problem with "Democrat bashing" if it has any ground to it. The posts like above are mostly nonsense. I took just one as an example.

[lukamar]

Lukamar, I have no problem with "Democrat bashing" if it has any ground to it. The posts like above are mostly nonsense. I took just one as an example.

That's not true, you pounce on anyone who does not agree with you. I happen to think that ando made some good posts stating his opinion in a very clear, concise and mature manner, probably because this forum has been calm the last few days and he felt safe doing so. There are others that probably think your viewpoint is nonsense but you are entitled to it, as ando is to his.

[ando]

The concept that the rural vote should not count because of the unconfirmed "assumption" that many of theses votes were bought goes against the basic principle of democracy.

One mans vote is as good as anothers regardless of social status. To say otherwise is undemocratic.

If anyone has evidence of vote buying on the massive scale alleged, it should be reported to the electoral commission. 3 million voters who otherwise would have voted "no" would have had to have been bribed to change their vote in order to get the result that occured and increase it from an even 13 million each. You can not call financial assistance to farmers and small businesses in order that they might increase productivity, "vote buying". That financial assistance is part of economic reform that benifits the whole country.

My nephew is one of those rural poor who support TRT. Under Thaksin he has been able to buy a rice husking machine and start a small business servicing other local farmers. The rice husks go to feed pigs which also bring in extra income. With borrowed money he has been able to buy a farm truck. He has diversified his crops which now include sugar cane. Again increasing income. He has been able to give his kids a good education. His eldest daughter was able to complete high school and now has a good job as a secretary in a nearby town. He works hard 12 hour days 7 days a week, but now at least he has the chance to give his family a better life.

I would not want to be the person to say to him that his vote should not be counted because there are rumors of vote buying in the rural community, or because he is not educated enough to understand what is good for him and his family.

The simple facts are that while the democrats focus on city based support from the educated elite and ignore the vast majority of rural voters, they will never get into political power where they might be able to bring about the reforms they are striving for. No amount of mud slinging or street protests in Bangkok will swing over the rural vote while they can see positive results on the ground in their own communities under TRT. Until the democrats realize that in a democracy you need to put forward positive policies that will attract the most voters and give long term prosperity to the country, they will be doomed to remain in the political wilderness crying foul over all that is unfair in society.

Edited April 16, 2006 by ando

[Jai Dee]

The Democrat Party is preparing to file a lawsuit against EC

The Democrat Party members will discuss with their lawyers tomorrow a plan to press charge against the Election Commission (EC).

Democrat Party Secretary-General Suthep Thuagsuban (สุเทพ เทือกสุบรรณ) stated that his party will hold a meeting tomorrow to file a lawsuit against the EC as the party deems that EC has used its authority in an inappropriate manner.

He said that his party dislikes the behavior of the chairperson of the Election Commission (EC), Mr. Wassana Permlarp (วาสนา เพิ่มลาภ), who has challenged people in discord with EC actions, to file a lawsuit against him and his organization.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 16 April 2006

[jdinasia]

Hope they have something and it is not just another empty lawsuit!

[Plus]

The concept that the rural vote should not count because of the unconfirmed "assumption" that many of theses votes were bought goes against the basic principle of democracy.

Unconfirmed assumption? Vote buying is widely acknowledged in Thailand. Should we go to "basics" and discuss it? Pull the quotes, pull the evidence, dig up stories? Seems like a waste of time. Why don't you start a thread "I don't believe in vote buying", see how far can you get.

One mans vote is as good as anothers regardless of social status. To say otherwise is undemocratic.

Even bought votes? I'm saying that bought votes shouldn't count. BOUGHT votes, again.

If anyone has evidence of vote buying on the massive scale alleged, it should be reported to the electoral commission.

In the first senate elections and the first Lower House elections hundreds of candidates were disqualified on vote buying suspicions. Present EC disqualified only 3. You can report all you want to the EC, they are not going to do a ###### about it. When Thaksin gave away money at his election rally on TV, the EC said it could have been for magazine subscriptions, not for votes. The only way they going to catch someone is if they confess. Or wait, some did just that - the small party candidates confessing on video that they have been offered bribes by TRT. EC didn't believe them.

How about this - anyone who thinks that the EC will disqulify TRT candidates for vote buying should report to a mental institution. Nothing personal, Ando, but it's not going to happen. EC is rotten to the core. Their chairman was disqualified for vote buying himself when campaigning for the Senate.

3 million voters who otherwise would have voted "no" would have had to have been bribed to change their vote in order to get the result that occured and increase it from an even 13 million each.

You lost me here. Last year TRT got 19 mil votes, this year they are down to 16 mil. Opposition had 13 mil last year. What numbers are you talking about?

You can not call financial assistance to farmers and small businesses in order that they might increase productivity, "vote buying". That financial assistance is part of economic reform that benifits the whole country.

Again, which financial assistance scheme was to "increase productivity"? None. Village funds might have been, but now we know that the money was mostly spent on mobile phones and motorcycles.

For all the fanfare all these schemes added only 0.91% to total 6% GDP growth in 2004, if I remeber correctly. Not much of a benefit for the country - but a lot political points to TRT.

My nephew is one of those rural poor who support TRT. Under Thaksin he has been able to buy a rice husking machine and start a small business servicing other local farmers. The rice husks go to feed pigs which also bring in extra income. With borrowed money he has been able to buy a farm truck. He has diversified his crops which now include sugar cane. Again increasing income. He has been able to give his kids a good education. His eldest daughter was able to complete high school and now has a good job as a secretary in a nearby town. He works hard 12 hour days 7 days a week, but now at least he has the chance to give his family a better life.

For every success story there's a failure. It's the total picture that counts. Farm sector incomes grew under Thaksin, but, apparently, due to high agrcicultural product prices. Rubber grew from 49 to 76 baht a kilo, for example. TRT then introduced rubber trees in Isan and it flopped in many areas - poor seedlings, unsuitable climate.

The simple facts are that while the democrats focus on city based support from the educated elite and ignore the vast majority of rural voters, they will never get into political power where they might be able to bring about the reforms they are striving for.

Democrats defended their turf very well, though. Let's see if they will be able to expand in Isan, they had some MPs there before, but it's TRT factions turf, not theirs. No one can beat people like Newin or Suwat at home. TRT just absorbed them - they took every crook and scoundrel for sale. I doubt Democrats will take them in, no matter how many MPs they bring with them. Let them into a coalition, but not in Democrat party.

No amount of mud slinging or street protests in Bangkok will swing over the rural vote while they can see positive results on the ground in their own communities under TRT. Until the democrats realize that in a democracy you need to put forward positive policies that will attract the most voters and give long term prosperity to the country, they will be doomed to remain in the political wilderness crying foul over all that is unfair in society.

Yes, but they've got a chance now, don't they. If they, and PAD, can manage levelling the playing field, they'll have their fair shot, and they'll probably lose anyway, but then TRT will win on policies, not on media control and vote-buying. The country wins, ultimately.

Lukamar, if you

"think that Ando made some good posts stating his opinion in a very clear, concise and mature manner,"

then why don't you comment on them rather than compain of "pouncing"? Why don't you discuss the facts, not emotions.

"There are others that probably think your viewpoint is nonsense but you are entitled to it, as ando is to his."

Viewpoints and opinion cannot, arguably, be nonsense. The wrong facts and perceptions they are based on, could.

I sense some subtle shift from the subject matter and onto personalities in you post.

[ColPyat]

Two things:

- many of those 16 million votes were bought and so shouldn't be counted for anything, as every free democracy will readily acknowledge

What on earth are you talking about? Democrats boycotted the elections - the were not swinging rural voters or picking up abstainers. Do you know that?

Over ten millions of "no votes" and spoiled ballots were cast in protest against Thaksin's corruption, and they were listened to.

On the contrary, one would hope that Democrats will NEVER "do this". It's TRT that should clean up its act, not Democrats who should engage in vote buying.

Your assumptions on the massive scale of vote buying in these elections are nothing but assumptions. It has to be proven in court beyond reasonable doubt that this has happened on the scale you imply here.

It is my personal observation in the few villages in the north that i am familiar with that in these elections the amount of "vote buying" was far less then in the previous elections.

You stated that you hope that the Democrats hopefully "never do this and should not engage in vote buying". This is an outlandish statement - Democrat politicians have all along suffered exactly the same accusations of votebuying as any other party in Thailand, and have had to deal with exactly the same corruption issues as any other party. May i remind you of the Sor Por Kor 401 issue that brought the Chuan 1 government to fall.

To count the spoiled ballots and "no" votes as a protest to Thaksin's corruption and support of the PAD is conjecture and a generalisation. A large amount of those happened in the South and were based on the traditional support for the Democrats, as the Democrats are basically a regional party. This is not a general statement against corruption as the Southerners have never had much of a problem with corruption of the Democrat party, which was in their favour.

Many of the spoilt ballots have definately been a form of protest, but many have been spoiled simply because many voters are simply on such a low educational level that they did not understand the ballots. This happens every election on a large scale.

You have to understand that this political fight here is not just a fight for democracy and against Thaksin. This is wishful thinking. Far wider and more complex issues are coming into play here, such as the regional differences between South and North/Isaarn, the gap between rich and poor. The accusation that the rural poor mainly think about their own needs is of course partially true, true though is also that those rural poor have not received anything at all from previous governments, and therefore less than under Thaksin, and true is also that the urban middle classes backing the PAD demonstrations have not cared much about the problems of the rural poor.

Of course the accusations against Thaksin are mostly true, but that does not mean that the PAD leadership is one bit "better" than Thaksin in terms of "transparency", "democracy", and all that. Just look at the personal histories of the main powers and their allies.

And, most important, one of the main issues always is forgotten in this debate here, and that is the book "Royal Power", to which many of the PAD leaders and demonstrators subscribe to. The theories propagated in this book are not dissimilar to the theories of the "volkisch" movement out of which the NSDAP grew in Germany. This is for me the most uncomfortable aspect of the present political mess, and this will come to haunt us all in the coming economical crises.

The Democrats have just boycotted the elections, but they have until now failed to present any positive policies to the Thai population. Just being against Taksin is not enough of a platform to get back into power, and will only further the mess we are in.

[ColPyat]

Democrats defended their turf very well, though. Let's see if they will be able to expand in Isan, they had some MPs there before, but it's TRT factions turf, not theirs. No one can beat people like Newin or Suwat at home. TRT just absorbed them - they took every crook and scoundrel for sale. I doubt Democrats will take them in, no matter how many MPs they bring with them. Let them into a coalition, but not in Democrat party.

So, and a scroudrel such as Sanan Kachornprasart was not leading member of the Democrat Party, forced his choice Banyat over Chuan's choice as party leader, then leaving the Deomocrats and founding his Mahachon Party, which both contributed to the massive loss in last year's elections?

I believe you should put your rose colored glasses off and have a closer look at the Democrats.

[Plus]

Well, Democrats allowed Sanan to be banned for five years by NCCC, and also didn't cry much when he left to establish Mahachon. He was long considered their liability.

If TRT had the same standards, they wouldn't be so bad. When Snoh left them the perception was that the rest are even worse, and that's the difference.

Demos also don't pay for votes in the South. The culture is different there. Call it "North-South", "Have/Have nots" split or whatever. How about "Right/Wrong" split. The reason for it is Thaksin, not the Demos.

>>>>>>>>>>>

Vote buying in this election most probably was not as widespread as last year, yet according to reports people were bussed in and told how to vote just the same. The main reasonis that it was less rallies, less election heat, and no comptetition prior to elections - when most vote buying happens.

Regarding "proof in court beyond reasonable doubt" - read my earlier post. Will never happen with this EC.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

How can you manage to plug PAD and that book in every thread?

I don't think that it's such an issue. You, at least, never shown it to be. Last time we brought scholars' opinion on this you went quiet about it.

[ColPyat]

How can you manage to plug PAD and that book in every thread?

I don't think that it's such an issue. You, at least, never shown it to be. Last time we brought scholars' opinion on this you went quiet about it.

I don't think that i went quiet. I have given links to highly respected scholars that have clearly distanced themselves from the extremely dangerous ideas presented in this book. I can't do more as one of those articles posted by me was already deleted by a moderator given the potentially explosive content.

I plug PAD with that book into every thread as this book is a major inspiration for the most important PAD leaders and their followers, and the clear background for their calls of a "Royaly appointed interim Prime Minister".

I do not know if you discuss the present political situation with many Thais, and especially in their own language. I do. And in these discussion this book and the theories presented there is a major issue.

Please study the history of the German "volkisch" movement from the later 19th century onwards which led to the National Socialist ideology. There are very clear parrallels between the early ideas of the "volkisch" movement and the theories presented in "Royal Power" seen in a Thai context.

[jdinasia]

oi

You cannot be comparing the late 1800's in Germany to 2006 in Thailand can you?

Edited April 17, 2006 by jdinasia

[Plus]

I didn't see your links. You just told people to google the names, and I didn't find anything exept Chiang Noi's article (he/she regularly writes for The Nation).

Here's his latest.

Such a strange election

On the night of April 3, the day following the election, Thaksin appeared on television to claim victory with 16.2 million votes on the party list. This figure has been repeated around the world. Where did it come from?

Every elector received two ballots, one to choose a candidate in their constituency (the constituency vote), the other to select a political party for the 100 seats decided by proportional representation (the party-list vote).

Starting late Sunday night, results from the constituency vote started to appear on television. Many voters had taken the "no-vote" option, and surprisingly many had spoiled their ballot papers.

In the previous election last year, spoiled ballots comprised 2.9 per cent of all votes cast for the party list and 6 per cent of the constituency vote. This time, the figure for the constituency vote was more than double at around 13 per cent. Many ballot papers were defaced with slogans and abuse directed against Thaksin. Many were probably left blank because people thought that "no vote" meant not marking the ballot at all. Lots of these spoiled ballots were clearly protest votes, but we cannot tell how many.

Most of the television channels and newspapers did not report details on the "no-vote" tally and spoiled ballots, but Channel 11 displayed the full data, and Matichon newspaper printed a fairly complete set for 397 of the 400 constituencies. Adding these data up showed that about 52 per cent of all votes nationwide went to Thai Rak Thai, 2 per cent to other parties, 33 per cent to the "no-vote" option and 13 per cent were spoiled.

Thai Rak Thai got 15.4 million of this constituency vote. Where did the other 800,000 votes for the party list come from?

In last year's election, Thai Rak Thai gained 2.4 million more votes on the party-list vote than on the constituency vote. Some voters used their constituency vote to choose a local candidate they liked but then used their party list vote to select Thai Rak Thai. That behaviour makes sense.

But in this year's contest, the choices facing the elector on the constituency vote and the party-list vote were not really any different. The minor parties were not important. On both polls, the voters' real choice was between Thai Rak Thai on the one hand, or a protest vote ("no vote" or spoiled ballot) on the other.

But the percentage distribution of votes between Thai Rak Thai, minor parties, abstentions and spoiled ballots was very different for the two different types of ballots. On the constituency vote it was 52-2-33-13, and on the party list it was 56-7-31-6.

The most striking difference is that 3.8 million people spoiled their ballots for the constituency vote but only 1.6 million for the party-list vote. In other words, at least 2.2 million people spoiled one ballot but not the other. In addition, at least 600,000 decided to cast a "no vote" on one ballot but not on the other.

It's very difficult to understand why the number of protest votes ("no vote" or spoiled ballot) was around three million higher on the constituency vote than on the party-list vote. You'd expect the opposite. If you wanted to register a protest against Thaksin, it would make more sense to do it on the party-list ballot. On top of that, more people voted for minor parties in the party-list vote than on the constituency vote. Again, you'd expect the opposite.

No details have come out regarding the party-list returns except for Bangkok. Comparing the constituency vote and the party-list vote produces some odd results. In Bangkok constituency 15 for example, more than one in five of all voters made a different choice on the two ballot slips. They apparently went into the polling booth and within the space of a few seconds marked one ballot slip in one way and the other in another way. It's difficult to imagine why.

All of the Bangkok constituencies are similarly wayward. There is a general trend of fewer spoiled ballots on the party-list vote compared to the constituency vote. But in other respects, the differences seem almost random. Sometimes Thai Rak Thai scored higher on the party-list than on the constituency vote. Sometimes the "no vote" was higher. Sometimes votes for the minor parties are higher. It's very difficult to understand what was going on. Perhaps these early figures are wrong. Perhaps they are a clumsy effort to reach a target.

On the afternoon of April 2, Thaksin was televised at Chiang Mai Airport. Full of confidence, he insisted that all parties would have to abide by the result of the election because it was the will of the people.

He called a press conference in Bangkok that evening. It was rumoured he would claim victory. At the last moment, the press conference was cancelled. We know that Thai Rak Thai had conducted an exit poll, and presumably it would have shown something close to the 52-2-33-13 result on the constituency vote.

When the television channels started their election coverage early the next day, there were some surprising features. None of the free-to-air channels made any attempt to add up constituency-by-constituency returns to give estimates of regional or national patterns. No returns from the party list were reported at all. The website of the Election Commission (EC) was designed to hide information about the "no vote" and spoiled ballots.

Later in the day it was announced that Thaksin would appear on television that evening. The television reporting of the election tailed off. Channel 11 stopped displaying the results and showed monks chanting in the Temple of the Emerald Buddha.

That evening Thaksin claimed victory with 16.2 million votes on the party list. He said the data came from the Interior Ministry, which was strange because that ministry was not involved in running the election. The 16.2-million figure represented 60 per cent of the valid votes cast. By coincidence, the equivalent figure in last year's poll was almost exactly the same. The EC has since adjusted the figure even higher, to 16.4 million.

Such a strange election.

Chang noi

http://nationmultimedia.com/2006/04/17/opi...on_30001818.php