Another Awful Cross-Border Relationship Story - Need "Legal" Counsel/Advise pl...

[atyclb]

The fact you actually need to come to an online forum and ask what to do in a situation like this pretty much sums it all up.

I disagree with you and also think many others would also disagree. The example I will use is the tragedy known as alcoholism/ drug addiction that also presents itself with seemingly "crazed, emotionally unstable, even psychopathic persons and many a loved one, family member, or friend distraught not knowing what to do. Online discussion forums can provide a tremendous source of insight and emotional healing. The reason being there are often others already experienced in such matters that offer pearls of wisdom. Quite often friends and loved ones regardless of their educational level and as there are emotions and feelings invoked, simply do not know how to deal with the affected persons apparent "insanity". Such internet discussion forums are the next best thing to attending actual support groups.

I tend to doubt there exists an actual support group that deals with the seemingly deranged behaviors we can see among the female demographic in Thailand thus fortunately or sadly the tv forum is probably the only place.

[atyclb]

Tell her your parents expect a dowry.

Why not. You are educated and your father is a surgical subspecialist ENT. Very good family, high education. She must respect the cultural beliefs of India. Could set the dowry at 10-15 million.

In case the OP doesn't know why this post is so popular it is because mant thai women try to get a dowry from the husband. In india the dowry comes from the wife.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Quite often friends and loved ones regardless of their educational level and as there are emotions and feelings invoked, simply do not know how to deal with the affected persons apparent "insanity". Such internet discussion forums are the next best thing to attending actual support groups.

If you have found a way of dealing with this sort of common female behaviour in Thailand that doesn't involve "run away and hide", please share. Otherwise, end of discussion.

[AgentYoghurt]

Simple solution: Absolute ignorance

Cheers.

[laislica]

Clearly, many of the posters here have been lucky enough never to have been in a relationship with the problems that this one has.

Some posters have and have courageously told their story and tried to help.

The OP has accepted that he has got himself into a mess and accepts the responsibility that comes with that.

He is at least partly to blame and he knows it.

It appears to me that he does not want to add to the hurt she is suffering, real or imagined and he wants it all to go away.

He has tried most of the easy fixes but they haven´t worked, he can´t hide and his life is being ruined.

When he gets nasty, she gets much nastier.

Money does not seem to be an issue.

The lady has a fixation, does not appear to be rational and the whole story is like a horror movie but with no end in sight, just continual torture.

If it were my problem, I would consider employing some local (to me) professional legal help to give me support and guidance and to bring the law on to my side. An official letter from my lawyer to her advising her that the relationship is over may do the trick. She may realize that you are no longer a soft touch and alone and have resources to fight her off.

Apart from giving up everything and becoming a Monk, I am at a loss as to what else to suggest.

The real question is, what would you do to end the fixation and allow them both to move on with their lives?

Good luck and may you find a solution soon.

Edited August 12, 2013 by laislica

[jvs]

This is not a case off a girl who loves you so much she wants to be with you no matter what,this is a story about a girl in control and she knows it!

You are in India and she is in Thailand,there is not a lot she can do.You think she can and that fits her just fine,i find it hard to believe that as a citizen from India the police will not help you when a crazed foreign person is at your door.

You say you don't want anymore contact but i think you are still talking to her.

You just have to tell yourself enough is enough,the only person who can end all this is you!

You can not control her actions and let everyone know this is the case,it is out of your hands.

However if you decide not to talk to her anymore just do that and do not talk to her anymore!

You may feel guilty but her problem is not your problem,she is trying to make it that way but it is not your responsibility.

And don't make the mistake to call her after a few weeks and ask her if she is all right,i have seen people do that and it will start all over again.

It is really simple.

[OttoSling]

This is not a case off a girl who loves you so much she wants to be with you no matter what,this is a story about a girl in control and she knows it!

You are in India and she is in Thailand,there is not a lot she can do.You think she can and that fits her just fine,i find it hard to believe that as a citizen from India the police will not help you when a crazed foreign person is at your door.

You say you don't want anymore contact but i think you are still talking to her.

You just have to tell yourself enough is enough,the only person who can end all this is you!

You can not control her actions and let everyone know this is the case,it is out of your hands.

However if you decide not to talk to her anymore just do that and do not talk to her anymore!

You may feel guilty but her problem is not your problem,she is trying to make it that way but it is not your responsibility.

And don't make the mistake to call her after a few weeks and ask her if she is all right,i have seen people do that and it will start all over again.

It is really simple.

Yes I am still talking to her but only because she doesnt stop calling - not because I am sympathising (passed that stage long ago). Today she reached out to one of my colleagues in office via the office board line - lol. Its hilarious and damn pissing off. Yes I feel bad for her because she is doing all this because she is sick (I have no other complaints with her otherwise) and I know this sickness will not go.

So to summarise am not on a guilt trip any more - I am just systematically working on a way to stave it all off. I'll handle the rest of the crumbs later. But thanks.

[timewilltell]

If you live n Thailand and she is using your 90 day reports to get your address as they can, then rent a cheap place for a few thousand a month for 6 months - should be able to find somewhere near where you want to live. Then move to another place altogether and use the other rental address for your 90 day reports. Then she will to be able to find you.

Move all your money into another bank account.

Change your passwords on your email to a super strong one at least 10 characters long if possible.

Get office staff to screen your calls and keep an eye out for people following you home.

Alternatively bung the police a few thousand to stop her harassing you.

Will be cheaper than a lawyer. You might also want to change your social accounts passwords and remove or block her.

If you go the legal route you will be raped by the police and lawyers at every opportunity and the law in Thailand is not so robust. If you can avoid it - do!

If you are it in Thailand find a different Nationality to date and never come back again like many others are doing.

Edited August 12, 2013 by timewilltell

[OttoSling]

Clearly, many of the posters here have been lucky enough never to have been in a relationship with the problems that this one has.

Some posters have and have courageously told their story and tried to help.

The OP has accepted that he has got himself into a mess and accepts the responsibility that comes with that.

He is at least partly to blame and he knows it.

It appears to me that he does not want to add to the hurt she is suffering, real or imagined and he wants it all to go away.

He has tried most of the easy fixes but they haven´t worked, he can´t hide and his life is being ruined.

When he gets nasty, she gets much nastier.

Money does not seem to be an issue.

The lady has a fixation, does not appear to be rational and the whole story is like a horror movie but with no end in sight, just continual torture.

If it were my problem, I would consider employing some local (to me) professional legal help to give me support and guidance and to bring the law on to my side. An official letter from my lawyer to her advising her that the relationship is over may do the trick. She may realize that you are no longer a soft touch and alone and have resources to fight her off.

Apart from giving up everything and becoming a Monk, I am at a loss as to what else to suggest.

The real question is, what would you do to end the fixation and allow them both to move on with their lives?

Good luck and may you find a solution soon.

Laislica - you've said it very well. The 'monk' visual has crossed my mind a few times even ... LOL

But you are correct that there is no easy solution or escape - it won't go away next week. I probably should engage legal at my end and one in BKK - both these people together should (I hope) find an adequate legal platform/support with which then - I could start closing down all the doors. And pray

[OttoSling]

If you live n Thailand and she is using your 90 day reports to get your address as they can, then rent a cheap place for a few thousand a month for 6 months - should be able to find somewhere near where you want to live. Then move to another place altogether and use the other rental address for your 90 day reports. Then she will to be able to find you.

Move all your money into another bank account.

Change your passwords on your email to a super strong one at least 10 characters long if possible.

Get office staff to screen your calls and keep an eye out for people following you home.

Alternatively bung the police a few thousand to stop her harassing you.

Will be cheaper than a lawyer. You might also want to change your social accounts passwords and remove or block her.

If you go the legal route you will be raped by the police and lawyers at every opportunity and the law in Thailand is not so robust. If you can avoid it - do!

If you are it in Thailand find a different Nationality to date and never come back again like many others are doing.

Thanks ... so you mean to say that cases like these are fairly common huh?

And no I am not in Thailand. But your advise about BKK legal is taken - will keep in mind.

[jvs]

Just don't answer the phone! What is wrong with you?

I am starting to wonder who needs more help,you or here.

Sorry but you don't seem to see what or who is the problem here.

Stop answering the f;./';./g phone!

[nonthaburial]

Come to Thailand and get her a HOT MERCEDES (as in STOLEN).Then have your way with her a few times on the last night..fake a call that there is a Family emergency in Indiana ( where I think you are really from) and right before your plane leaves,,Rat her out to the Coppers and be sure and tell them there is cash and drugs in her apartment...and the in the seats of her stolen Mercedes...and that she has CD's of herself doing Porn in her computers and telephone and cameras..they will "confiscate" all electronics and lock her up...lol. Thank you for the e mini-book it is the 112,000th time I heard similar cases...but always good for a laugh.

Maxpratt what an idiot you and a lot of posters are. I have been in Asia since 1977 WORKING LEGALLY and have seen this many times in THAILAND (10 years) Philippines (6 years) Indonesia 2 years) and China (4 years) .

I believe, understand and accept what the OP says and have seen it before and can understand what the OP fears. Your comments show you as a total prick with no experience in Asia. Another dangerous idiot and pretender.

Eleven posts lol

[vhartling]

You have been given a lot of advice which you seem reluctant to follow. I believe that you are afraid to follow any of the sensible advice because you think that she might actually kill herself. As long as you demonstrate to her that you feel some responsibility for her behaviour, the madness will continue. You are not responsive for anything that she might do. She is the only person responsible for her actions.

You need to make a clean break and stick by it no matter what she does or threatens to do. Ask a lawyer to email her a letter, followed by a hard copy stating that the relationship is ended. Do not do it yourself as history shows that you just get involved in a long drawn out drama with her. Get restraining orders. Change all your contact info. Have a lawyer put a notice in the papers both in India and Thailand stating that you are no longer in a relationship with her and are not responsible for any of her actions from this day forward. Contact all friends, family, neighbours and colleagues and inform them if she contacts them to immediately disconnect or if she shows up in person to call the police immediately. Do not have any contact with her, her friends or family. Rent temporary accommodation for a few months and move out of your condo. Inform the condo management that they are to call the police if she shows up.

Yes you will feel terrible if she does succeed in committing suicide but that is her decision and you are not responsible for her decisions. I doubt very much that she will actually succeed in a suicide. If she had wanted to succeed she would have so before now. Hopefully at some point she will get the help that she needs but again that is her decision.

Unfortunately you have encouraged her outrageous behaviour by doing what she wants. When her threats stopped working she escalated her negative behaviour. You must have absolutely no contact with her. Sporadic contact will only more strongly reinforces her unacceptable behaviour. When she can no longer engage you in her drama she will find someone else who will.

You are not responsible for her in any way shape or form if you clearly and cleanly end the relationship.

[mickjn]

I like you you have gone to a great effort to make me smile,thank you

[monty1412]

Look Im soory you have to go through this but its in your hands just cut it off and cut all access points where you can... you never got married and their is no basis by which you are fiscally responsible for any repatriation of monies.. just cut it and move on...

[monty1412]

Don't shower for a month, wear used clothes and look as grubby as possible, when you're on your next Skype call have your mates call you pretending to be a collection agent.

If all else fails give her the link to this thread.

Hey he is Indian, this is normal... suggest something that is outa the norm.. this guy is a troll

[OttoSling]

Just don't answer the phone! What is wrong with you?

I am starting to wonder who needs more help,you or here.

Sorry but you don't seem to see what or who is the problem here.

Stop answering the f;./';./g phone!

You have been given a lot of advice which you seem reluctant to follow. I believe that you are afraid to follow any of the sensible advice because you think that she might actually kill herself. As long as you demonstrate to her that you feel some responsibility for her behaviour, the madness will continue. You are not responsive for anything that she might do. She is the only person responsible for her actions.

You need to make a clean break and stick by it no matter what she does or threatens to do. Ask a lawyer to email her a letter, followed by a hard copy stating that the relationship is ended. Do not do it yourself as history shows that you just get involved in a long drawn out drama with her. Get restraining orders. Change all your contact info. Have a lawyer put a notice in the papers both in India and Thailand stating that you are no longer in a relationship with her and are not responsible for any of her actions from this day forward. Contact all friends, family, neighbours and colleagues and inform them if she contacts them to immediately disconnect or if she shows up in person to call the police immediately. Do not have any contact with her, her friends or family. Rent temporary accommodation for a few months and move out of your condo. Inform the condo management that they are to call the police if she shows up.

Yes you will feel terrible if she does succeed in committing suicide but that is her decision and you are not responsible for her decisions. I doubt very much that she will actually succeed in a suicide. If she had wanted to succeed she would have so before now. Hopefully at some point she will get the help that she needs but again that is her decision.

Unfortunately you have encouraged her outrageous behaviour by doing what she wants. When her threats stopped working she escalated her negative behaviour. You must have absolutely no contact with her. Sporadic contact will only more strongly reinforces her unacceptable behaviour. When she can no longer engage you in her drama she will find someone else who will.

You are not responsible for her in any way shape or form if you clearly and cleanly end the relationship.

I understand what you are saying - I am not averse to "cutting-off" I totally understand every word of what you're saying - its been said by many other posters. Its not that I am not accepting these - trust me I know that these would work from my past younger days' experience - but dont forget this isnt really as normal a case as you may be thinking. I have also repeatedly said in my previous posts that every time I try cutting off the problem lands up at my doorstep - it doesnt remain long distance when I cut off, got it?

Pl understand that there is no way to prevent someone into entering your country without them having committed a serious cognizable public offence which has been recorded. Without that condition, it is tough. If some one lands up at your office and kicks up an embarrasing storm what would you do??? Call security? What will security do - manhandle an alone woman who's also dressed in expensive clothes carrying a Louis Vuitton bad??? Most Indian security personell will shit their pants if an up-market lady only glares at them - this one barks and bites both!

Then next - what would u do next? Call the police? The police will do their 3-4 hour drama yes but in the end they'll see it as a "personal problem" and they'll tell you look we'll have to call the embassy. Don't forget when a small petite woman sheds tears everyone points at the man - unless they have actually SEEN the offence with their own eyes. No one would even bother to check - unfortunately this is the truth in many countries. Yes it'd have been totally different in US and many WE countries (maybe, not sure) and it'd certainly be completely different in Gulf. But not in this "largest democratic republic"! So then it becomes a case between 2 foreign offices. Anticipatory bails, appeals, filings etc will start and continue for at least 3 years!!! I know India and I have a bit of understanding about Thailand as well.

Cutting Off wont work at THIS STAGE (maybe later with proper legal paraphernalia in place).

Hope I've explained.

[monty1412]

Don't shower for a month, wear used clothes and look as grubby as possible, when you're on your next Skype call have your mates call you pretending to be a collection agent.

If all else fails give her the link to this thread.

Hey he is Indian, this is normal... suggest something that is outa the norm.. this guy is a troll

Just read his post where he mentions slum dwellers and that to me equating her behaviour to slum dwellers is the key.. those that live in slums in India do very little interaction if any with upper/ middle class folks.. the class system there is very prevalent , certainly harassment of wealthier class fold by slumites is almost unknown. But more to the point, commentary by such folk re slum dwellers is taboo and they would never liken certain behaviours or characteristics to that of slum dwellers .. ....to do so would be to admit you know of their life and ways and no Indian of any standing would ever ever publicly admit to that.

The fact that you mentioned this to me is troll ID 101

So what is your motivation here

1) you write a post which is topical and likely to evoke numerous ;hopefully supportive and sympathetic, responses from all walks of life.

2) I dont believe it is popularity or supportive public response you are after.

3) Amongst the tome like dialogue is request for sympathetic assistance in identifying a suitable lawyer or entity that can help... presumably ideally by PM.

4) Presumably such a person who is willing to PM you has sympathy with your predicament.. ahhh you now have your potential catch.

From here you can play your games whatever they are.... I suspect a raft of empathetic folks sending you seemingly helpful PM's opens the door to start having side dialogue and trying on some sort of scam....

This to me is Scorpion Troll.. i.e troll with a sting...

Of course Im happy to be proven wrong and would publicly apologise to you if so but Im afraid the reference to slum dwellers just tipped your whole intent here into TROLL territory....

Hope the weather in Lagos is nice at present...

[monty1412]

Don't shower for a month, wear used clothes and look as grubby as possible, when you're on your next Skype call have your mates call you pretending to be a collection agent.

If all else fails give her the link to this thread.

Hey he is Indian, this is normal... suggest something that is outa the norm.. this guy is a troll

Just read his post where he mentions slum dwellers and that to me equating her behaviour to slum dwellers is the key.. those that live in slums in India do very little interaction if any with upper/ middle class folks.. the class system there is very prevalent , certainly harassment of wealthier class fold by slumites is almost unknown. But more to the point, commentary by such folk re slum dwellers is taboo and they would never liken certain behaviours or characteristics to that of slum dwellers .. ....to do so would be to admit you know of their life and ways and no Indian of any standing would ever ever publicly admit to that.

The fact that you mentioned this to me is troll ID 101

So what is your motivation here

1) you write a post which is topical and likely to evoke numerous ;hopefully supportive and sympathetic, responses from all walks of life.

2) I dont believe it is popularity or supportive public response you are after.

3) Amongst the tome like dialogue is request for sympathetic assistance in identifying a suitable lawyer or entity that can help... presumably ideally by PM.

4) Presumably such a person who is willing to PM you has sympathy with your predicament.. ahhh you now have your potential catch.

From here you can play your games whatever they are.... I suspect a raft of empathetic folks sending you seemingly helpful PM's opens the door to start having side dialogue and trying on some sort of scam....

This to me is Scorpion Troll.. i.e troll with a sting...

Of course Im happy to be proven wrong and would publicly apologise to you if so but Im afraid the reference to slum dwellers just tipped your whole intent here into TROLL territory....

Hope the weather in Lagos is nice at present...

Ahh I wrote to soon.. I see you have already asked one sympathetic responder if you can PM him and in later posts additional requests for information on potential lawyers who might help seemingly thinly disused by the question on whether you should google it or not.... nice touch that.....point I unsure about is if you do get a raft of bleeding hearts that you can PM and presumably move to private email from there.. what is the plan to try and extort monies or alike from them...pretty sure about the motive but missing the sting bit...

[OttoSling]

I'm sorry - didnt mean to cause so much conjecture about my intentions, identity, nationality etc. I am not PMing any of you, don't worry. I just wanted to get some answers to a few questions I had which I've already stated openly. You can also see I am time n again trying to simply only stick to my question and I am not seeking a sympathy drive at all - that wouldnt help my purpose at all. I have looked and I couldnt get satisfactory results and hence I came to this forum (was referred by someone who believes that Thaivisa has a lot of people who may be able to help).

And yes I will PM some people IF I need to and that too with "their permission only". And if any of these people feel I tried a scam on them or tried extorting, well this is a forum - they can report me easily!!

So again ... pl do not worry about all that.

If you at all have the info I am looking for, pl be kind enough to provide, it will really help me more than you can imagine right now.
Thank you very much, all.

Edited August 12, 2013 by OttoSling

[atyclb]

Quite often friends and loved ones regardless of their educational level and as there are emotions and feelings invoked, simply do not know how to deal with the affected persons apparent "insanity". Such internet discussion forums are the next best thing to attending actual support groups.

If you have found a way of dealing with this sort of common female behaviour in Thailand that doesn't involve "run away and hide", please share. Otherwise, end of discussion.

It is the OP, not I, seeking answers. Hopefully the content of this discussion will have helped him. He is free to "take what he wants, and leave the rest"

[MegaRanter]

I had like 3 of such psychos on mind at different times, back in the day. One, the richest and most educated one was total wacko. She can't handle alcohol but but consume half a bottle of American honey in I hour, just to embarrass me in public. Manipulating expert, made me punch out some guys lights in hua hin Hilton. When I am traveling overseas, always had me on the phone, sometimes with the phone on but idle.

I one day asked her never to contact me or else. She tried once or twice and I have never heard from her since then in 2006. Probably flew off a balcony.

You ve been through divorce, should be able to handle women better with a firmer resolve.

[Secondmouse]

not another one who writes a book.

yeah, this guys got far too much time on his hands......doesn't need advice, needs a straightjacket....

[NCFC]

You seem to want to go the legal route which to my thinking is the trickiest, messiest and most expensive way of doing it. But maybe you want this route because it puts the onus on your lawyer and not you to deal with the problem? You need to deal with this yourself. The legal route requires firm evidence that the law has been broken. If she is that smart then she'll stay just within the boundaries of the law.

To me the solution is simple. To the majority of Thai women we are merely 'opportunities'. That seems to be how she sees you. Therefore you have to make yourself no longer an attractive proposition to her and she'll lose interest and start looking elsewhere. Plenty of good suggestions on this thread on how to do that. But as she is a smart one, you need to construct a believable scenario. Fake some papers that show you or your business is insolvent. Fake medical records. Send them to her. Ask her to bail out you or your company.

If you are no longer an attractive opportunity she will be gone.

[Gsxrnz]

In my ever so humble opinion, it's about time we gave the OP the "Troll of the year" award and put this baby to bed. Even in the remote possibility that his original post had a semblance of truth, the additional diatribe in the additional posts is just milking it for far too much.

OP - please provide the address of your bridge so the Mods can send you the award. Somewhere near Brixton was it?

Edited August 13, 2013 by Gsxrnz

[toybits]

I am surprised you allowed all those thing to happen. No warning bells lit up at all? Why did you have to endure all those things? Why not just pack up and go?

You raise more questions by not doing so...

[belg]

a troll a day keeps the doctor away

good fun

but no way this guy is indian

troll troll down the stream

[manly100]

Is this the same girl who was horribly electrocuted over several hours due to faulty wiring in the shower tomorrow?

[vhartling]

Just don't answer the phone! What is wrong with you?

I am starting to wonder who needs more help,you or here.

Sorry but you don't seem to see what or who is the problem here.

Stop answering the f;./';./g phone!

You have been given a lot of advice which you seem reluctant to follow. I believe that you are afraid to follow any of the sensible advice because you think that she might actually kill herself. As long as you demonstrate to her that you feel some responsibility for her behaviour, the madness will continue. You are not responsive for anything that she might do. She is the only person responsible for her actions.

You need to make a clean break and stick by it no matter what she does or threatens to do. Ask a lawyer to email her a letter, followed by a hard copy stating that the relationship is ended. Do not do it yourself as history shows that you just get involved in a long drawn out drama with her. Get restraining orders. Change all your contact info. Have a lawyer put a notice in the papers both in India and Thailand stating that you are no longer in a relationship with her and are not responsible for any of her actions from this day forward. Contact all friends, family, neighbours and colleagues and inform them if she contacts them to immediately disconnect or if she shows up in person to call the police immediately. Do not have any contact with her, her friends or family. Rent temporary accommodation for a few months and move out of your condo. Inform the condo management that they are to call the police if she shows up.

Yes you will feel terrible if she does succeed in committing suicide but that is her decision and you are not responsible for her decisions. I doubt very much that she will actually succeed in a suicide. If she had wanted to succeed she would have so before now. Hopefully at some point she will get the help that she needs but again that is her decision.

Unfortunately you have encouraged her outrageous behaviour by doing what she wants. When her threats stopped working she escalated her negative behaviour. You must have absolutely no contact with her. Sporadic contact will only more strongly reinforces her unacceptable behaviour. When she can no longer engage you in her drama she will find someone else who will.

You are not responsible for her in any way shape or form if you clearly and cleanly end the relationship.

I understand what you are saying - I am not averse to "cutting-off" I totally understand every word of what you're saying - its been said by many other posters. Its not that I am not accepting these - trust me I know that these would work from my past younger days' experience - but dont forget this isnt really as normal a case as you may be thinking. I have also repeatedly said in my previous posts that every time I try cutting off the problem lands up at my doorstep - it doesnt remain long distance when I cut off, got it?

Pl understand that there is no way to prevent someone into entering your country without them having committed a serious cognizable public offence which has been recorded. Without that condition, it is tough. If some one lands up at your office and kicks up an embarrasing storm what would you do??? Call security? What will security do - manhandle an alone woman who's also dressed in expensive clothes carrying a Louis Vuitton bad??? Most Indian security personell will shit their pants if an up-market lady only glares at them - this one barks and bites both!

Then next - what would u do next? Call the police? The police will do their 3-4 hour drama yes but in the end they'll see it as a "personal problem" and they'll tell you look we'll have to call the embassy. Don't forget when a small petite woman sheds tears everyone points at the man - unless they have actually SEEN the offence with their own eyes. No one would even bother to check - unfortunately this is the truth in many countries. Yes it'd have been totally different in US and many WE countries (maybe, not sure) and it'd certainly be completely different in Gulf. But not in this "largest democratic republic"! So then it becomes a case between 2 foreign offices. Anticipatory bails, appeals, filings etc will start and continue for at least 3 years!!! I know India and I have a bit of understanding about Thailand as well.

Cutting Off wont work at THIS STAGE (maybe later with proper legal paraphernalia in place).

Hope I've explained.

You have more excuses to do nothing proactive than a soi dog has fleas.

[hawker9000]

Never wanting to see anybody silenced, but is this anything more than a trolling/not-trolling debate at this point? Let's just have a poll - those who think it is vs those who remain sympathetic - and be done with it. Anybody with a bright idea not already mentioned could still PM the OP.