Hello , I must go to the "civil court" for business misappropreation

[helle]

Good afternoon, I (plaintiff)  have to go to the "civil court" for a company case. The first time I was there I just had to sign a document in order to open the investigation.  I suspect that all investigative actions have been completed (such as : I was interviewed by the police, I gave them incriminating documents concerning the case....)

My question is ? Will I be allowed to read the case-file ? If so, when and where ?

 

attachement "invest. agreement between Belgium - luxembourg and kingdam Thailand"

[stoffel45]

Hi there Helle,

 

I think like a lot of us reading your post....we are hoping you have a very good Thai lawyer. (very, very rare people)

 

I won't go into the merits of your case - but. 

 

You wrote: (such as : I was interviewed by the police, I gave them incriminating documents concerning the case....)

 

I do hope that is wrong. For example, "whom did these documents incriminate?"

 

As for.....
My question is ? Will I be allowed to read the case-file ? If so, when and where ?

 

When you refer to the case file - I am going to assume that there is a case extant AGAINST you or your company. This "Case file" you refer to is that of the Pursuer/Plaintiff/ Prosecutor - as it is obvious you can read your own. 

 

Well Helle, in Thailand, unless you have EXTRAORDINARY lawyers you will not have a sight of the "other side's file" until you are IN court and the case is running. If it is a Police case you may never see it. Normally in Belgium (where the Laws are comparatively primitive being a mix of Code Napoleone and Roman Dutch Law) you would be entitled to Discovery before Trial of much of the case against you. Alas, unless you are able to "grease the wheels with vast quantities of fragrant cash" you will see nothing. 

 

You mentioned the Police (above) so whilst you say this is a "civil Case" ......Is it?

 

In Belgium and most other countries, for example, "defamation of a person or institution" is not a criminal case and is accordingly of no interest to the Police.

In Thailand, "Defamation" is a CRIMINAL offence and is handled by the Police. 

 

I say this because you refer to Belgium and Thailand. 

 

I am sure there are those who can advise you much better than I - but suffice it to say, that many a farang with a seemingly strong case finds himself on the wrong side of the Prosecutor.

 

Regardless - don't go anywhere near any Court until you have had your position explained in detail by a competent Thai Lawyer. 

 

If you have a Summons to Court - and there is an element of criminal procedure - then ask a Thai lawyer to seek a continuance and get the matter sorted out.

 

If you are short of funds ( and legal pleadings in Thailand soak up funds faster than a showgirl) then I suggest if there is any criminal offence latent - that you take yourself to Belgium and acquaint the legal eagles there before doing anything.

 

Incidentally, it is extremely unlikely that Belgian Law (such as it is) will have any bearing on a case in a Thai Court.

 

Whatever - be VERY circumspect in all regards. Best wishes,

Edited December 29, 2013 by stoffel45

[helle]

thank you for you reply

 

The agree ment between Belgium and thailand = Intern. Law and must be resectid

 

and the case is very simple

 

You have a "LTD" ,go to Belgium for some months and if you come back the thai Manager / Director makes fals papers from a special meeting, give to the government and stop the "LTD" and do the same business on thr same spot ,but now on private name from de Manager /Director .

 

No minutes , no year  account , no stock list, nothing ,  and all the money of the LTD in the pocket of the manager /director

 

Civil case = section 1168 and 1173 ,...of the ccc

and Criminal = misappropriation section 352 -353 , and 267--268 and  341

 

And I  know "not easy to find good lawyers to help a farang in Thailand ! (maybe  I must start my own  "legal advice office" for farang in Thailand !)

 

Regards

 

newby HELLE

 

[cassde]

I have an excellent English lawyer practicing in Thailand. Send me an IM and I will provide his name and contact details. I am sure he will try and help you.

[Baerboxer]

I have an excellent English lawyer practicing in Thailand. Send me an IM and I will provide his name and contact details. I am sure he will try and help you.

 

I thought "lawyer" was a reserved profession for Thais only?  

 

Can an English lawyer plead in a Thai court? 

 

I'd be interested if anyone can clarrify.

[simple1]

 

I have an excellent English lawyer practicing in Thailand. Send me an IM and I will provide his name and contact details. I am sure he will try and help you.

 

I thought "lawyer" was a reserved profession for Thais only?  Can an English lawyer plead in a Thai court? 

 

I'd be interested if anyone can clarrify.

 

 

Foreigners cannot practice law at Court in Thailand, only as legal advisers/consultants, managing partner etc; details at URL below. In summary only Thai nationals can become licensed lawyers in Thailand (s.35 of the Thailand Lawyers Act 1985)

 

http://www.ibanet.org/PPID/Constituent/Bar_Issues_Commission/ITILS_Thailand.aspx

Edited December 30, 2013 by simple1

[rayongchelsea]

I am in a civil case at the moment. I have a very good Thai lawyer and use a translator to sit with me in court and summaries after each court session. There will also be a court memo issued by the court at the end of each hearing.If you attend you will need to sign it. I am conversant with our claim. Documents have been shown in court that we were not privy to previously and the judge ruled that copies be provided to us the plaintiffs. It's a long process and be prepared to go to appeal.

[rayongchelsea]

Just to add you will go through mediation first. This will be overseen by an appointed arbitrator . Usually 3 sessions, if this fails,then it will go before the court as to whether the case will be accepted. Good luck.

[helle]

Thank you for your reply

 

An additional problem for me is that it all plays  in the " Isaan " region 600km from BKK ( In this region , it is already difficult to find someone who speaks fluent English and  to find a lawyer or English interpreter.  And if you find someone speaking English well enough, it  is double hard to find someone willing to defend your case even though the evidence is clear.  Criminal actions should be prosecuted by the police prosecutor .

But if I found out in the books of the manager/director,  that there are regular payments to the local police, it is understandable that the police is not very willing to answer  my complaints. . Small example , a new motor (my property)  was  stolen by the manager / Director, is still used by the manager but is declared as 'given'.  I had transcribed from my personal account money tot the account of  the manager clearly stating that the money was to be used to purchase the motor on my personal name.  Now I realise that this is something you can't do in Thailand, (to purchase and to register a motor using different names.)

At the police station, while declaring the theft, the manager/director was called in and simply answered that the motor was a gift ! A few days later, my interpreter and I  were invited by the police to meet at the company, at the scene I made clear what belonged to me (what was my personal property, showing official documents to prove) and what belonged to the company. No pictures of photos were taken, I was denied acces to the company, the atmosphere was tense, threatening, chances of a 'brawl' so we were adviced to back to the police station.  Nothing was written down about what had happened.

 

I know you have the "isaan lawyers office" in isaan region , but they  represent the manager/director.

Regards.

Helle

[marcusd]

 

I have an excellent English lawyer practicing in Thailand. Send me an IM and I will provide his name and contact details. I am sure he will try and help you.

 

I thought "lawyer" was a reserved profession for Thais only?  

 

Can an English lawyer plead in a Thai court? 

 

I'd be interested if anyone can clarrify.

 

 

Thailand is part of The UN convention for Legal process (international) or some bloody thing like it I just cannot remember exactly...and as such legally trained professionals LAYERS SOLICITAORS BARRISTERS can practice here by being REGISTERED at the Thai equivalent of the Bar Association or Layer Registration offices.

 

I have an Ozzie Barrister friend in Pattaya who is registered that way even though he has NO WORK PERMIT HERE.

 

Justice is starnage and you can have foreign trained lawyers represent you.  GOD HELP THEM IN A THAI COURT where the spirits guide the decisions.
 

[helle]

Hi there Helle,

 

I think like a lot of us reading your post....we are hoping you have a very good Thai lawyer. (very, very rare people)

 

I won't go into the merits of your case - but. 

 

You wrote: (such as : I was interviewed by the police, I gave them incriminating documents concerning the case....)

 

I do hope that is wrong. For example, "whom did these documents incriminate?"

 

As for.....
My question is ? Will I be allowed to read the case-file ? If so, when and where ?

 

When you refer to the case file - I am going to assume that there is a case extant AGAINST you or your company. This "Case file" you refer to is that of the Pursuer/Plaintiff/ Prosecutor - as it is obvious you can read your own. 

 

Well Helle, in Thailand, unless you have EXTRAORDINARY lawyers you will not have a sight of the "other side's file" until you are IN court and the case is running. If it is a Police case you may never see it. Normally in Belgium (where the Laws are comparatively primitive being a mix of Code Napoleone and Roman Dutch Law) you would be entitled to Discovery before Trial of much of the case against you. Alas, unless you are able to "grease the wheels with vast quantities of fragrant cash" you will see nothing. 

 

You mentioned the Police (above) so whilst you say this is a "civil Case" ......Is it?

 

In Belgium and most other countries, for example, "defamation of a person or institution" is not a criminal case and is accordingly of no interest to the Police.

In Thailand, "Defamation" is a CRIMINAL offence and is handled by the Police. 

 

I say this because you refer to Belgium and Thailand. 

 

I am sure there are those who can advise you much better than I - but suffice it to say, that many a farang with a seemingly strong case finds himself on the wrong side of the Prosecutor.

 

Regardless - don't go anywhere near any Court until you have had your position explained in detail by a competent Thai Lawyer. 

 

If you have a Summons to Court - and there is an element of criminal procedure - then ask a Thai lawyer to seek a continuance and get the matter sorted out.

 

If you are short of funds ( and legal pleadings in Thailand soak up funds faster than a showgirl) then I suggest if there is any criminal offence latent - that you take yourself to Belgium and acquaint the legal eagles there before doing anything.

 

Incidentally, it is extremely unlikely that Belgian Law (such as it is) will have any bearing on a case in a Thai Court.

 

Whatever - be VERY circumspect in all regards. Best wishes,

"" and legal pleadings in Thailand soak up funds faster than a showgirl"" I don't know the price of showgirl , I know "Legal advice" costs a lot of  money and a  thai lawyer can always refuse your case even after closer  investigations.  There is absolutely no garanty that he will represent you in the end before court. Although there is no doubt about who is right or wrong and even after we made a deal. 

 

Best Regards 

 

HELLE

 

Example , take  the "Belgium -Luxembourg/Thai chamber of commerce" the president  of this chamber is also "one of the best lawyers in Thailand" and adviced  after careful  look into  the papers " ""Yes Mr. Helle , In our opinion, you have a case  and you can take civil , criminal and cooperate law actions against the Manager / Director of the "LTD" and other person who have caused damage by burglaries to the company and Mr. Helle in his personal capacity .However, it is our statutory policy that we will not take criminal charge as in this case ! We would like to refer an experienced lawyer who might be....

 

Now i work from Belgium with "The Lawyers (J3) of ministry foreign affairs "  the people who monitor compliance with investment treaties.

[helle]

Just to add you will go through mediation first. This will be overseen by an appointed arbitrator . Usually 3 sessions, if this fails,then it will go before the court as to whether the case will be accepted. Good luck.

Like described in the investment agreement ! Attachement (post 1)

 

......and the time limit from " 1 - 3 - ... monts" to make a claim to the court ! corporate law , civil law and (Criminal law = i hope it's OK , with my complain at police station and asking for investigation   ? )

[rayongchelsea]

I think you need to carefully think about how much you have lost, what it will cost and can you trust anyone. I have had a lot of support, 2 lawyers who have ignored "offers" etc.. The defendants are very influential..I don't really expect to win..but I don't like being taken advantage of..but on reflection it has been stressful. I can ask my lawyer if they know someone in issarn if you are going to continue. You have learnt something about Thailand when it comes to business..as have I..my advise to you is to write it off and start again. So basically you opened a business with a partner ( this lawyer ), you are probably a minority shareholder, he used his responsibility to mis appropriate funds. I presume he had authority to sign checks etc..having agms, meetings etc..or not, no big deal here.. You trusted him.. Good luck

[harrry]

Of course you could not own a LTD only 49% of the shares.  This allows you to be over ruled in everything and if you claim to own more could lead you into more trouble for using nominees.

[rayongchelsea]

[quote name="harrry" post="7225901" timestamp="1388406291"]Of course you could not own a LTD only 49% of the shares.  This allows you to be over ruled in everything and if you claim to own more could lead you into more trouble for using nominees.[/quote] Agree. That's is why it is questionable as to the pursuit of this case. Plus documents are in Thai. What I have also discovered is that documents can magically appear that were supposedly done years ago..which probably didn't exist last week!!..

[helle]

Of course you could not own a LTD only 49% of the shares.  This allows you to be over ruled in everything and if you claim to own more could lead you into more trouble for using nominees.

hello , there are shares paid for and shares not paid for.  In my case, my shares (max. 49% of all the shares)  were paid but the shares of the Thai person were not.  The accountant made the mistake by mentioning the shares of the Thai person under the heading 'paid shares' on the official shareholdersdocument. The responsibility of this paper is the responsibility of the accountant and director NOT the shareholders. The shares which were not paid by the thai person were supposed to be fully paid in the course of the years to come, depending on the profits of the company.  This was stipulated in the minutes of the general meeting.

 

thank you for the reply

[harrry]

 

Of course you could not own a LTD only 49% of the shares.  This allows you to be over ruled in everything and if you claim to own more could lead you into more trouble for using nominees.

hello , there are shares paid for and shares not paid for.  In my case, my shares (max. 49% of all the shares)  were paid but the shares of the Thai person were not.  The accountant made the mistake by mentioning the shares of the Thai person under the heading 'paid shares' on the official shareholdersdocument. The responsibility of this paper is the responsibility of the accountant and director NOT the shareholders. The shares which were not paid by the thai person were supposed to be fully paid in the course of the years to come, depending on the profits of the company.  This was stipulated in the minutes of the general meeting.

 

thank you for the reply

 

Sorry...that counts as nominee...

Check on the laws regarding nominees here and the potential penalties.

[helle]

 

Of course you could not own a LTD only 49% of the shares.  This allows you to be over ruled in everything and if you claim to own more could lead you into more trouble for using nominees.

Agree. That's is why it is questionable as to the pursuit of this case. Plus documents are in Thai.
What I have also discovered is that documents can magically appear that were supposedly done years ago..which probably didn't exist last week!!..

 

Yes , i know " LOS = is for me now LOG (Land Of Greed )

[helle]

I think you need to carefully think about how much you have lost, what it will cost and can you trust anyone. I have had a lot of support, 2 lawyers who have ignored "offers" etc.. The defendants are very influential..I don't really expect to win..but I don't like being taken advantage of..but on reflection it has been stressful. I can ask my lawyer if they know someone in issarn if you are going to continue. You have learnt something about Thailand when it comes to business..as have I..my advise to you is to write it off and start again. So basically you opened a business with a partner ( this lawyer ), you are probably a minority shareholder, he used his responsibility to mis appropriate funds. I presume he had authority to sign checks etc..having agms, meetings etc..or not, no big deal here.. You trusted him.. Good luck

why does one need the law or agreements, if there is no justice (justice must be seen to be done ! Also in Thailand partner of the UN)

[helle]

 

 

Of course you could not own a LTD only 49% of the shares.  This allows you to be over ruled in everything and if you claim to own more could lead you into more trouble for using nominees.

hello , there are shares paid for and shares not paid for.  In my case, my shares (max. 49% of all the shares)  were paid but the shares of the Thai person were not.  The accountant made the mistake by mentioning the shares of the Thai person under the heading 'paid shares' on the official shareholdersdocument. The responsibility of this paper is the responsibility of the accountant and director NOT the shareholders. The shares which were not paid by the thai person were supposed to be fully paid in the course of the years to come, depending on the profits of the company.  This was stipulated in the minutes of the general meeting. width=32 alt=coffee1.gif>

 

thank you for the reply

 

Sorry...that counts as nominee...

Check on the laws regarding nominees here and the potential penalties.

 

. The responsibility of this paper is the responsibility of the accountant and director NOT the shareholders and all papers in thai ! And sign by accountend and Director !

 

For me (shareholder) i'ts a investment !

[rayongchelsea]

[quote name="helle" post="7226066" timestamp="1388409209"][quote name="rayongchelsea" post="7225893" timestamp="1388406133"]I think you need to carefully think about how much you have lost, what it will cost and can you trust anyone. I have had a lot of support, 2 lawyers who have ignored "offers" etc.. The defendants are very influential..I don't really expect to win..but I don't like being taken advantage of..but on reflection it has been stressful. I can ask my lawyer if they know someone in issarn if you are going to continue. You have learnt something about Thailand when it comes to business..as have I..my advise to you is to write it off and start again. So basically you opened a business with a partner ( this lawyer ), you are probably a minority shareholder, he used his responsibility to mis appropriate funds. I presume he had authority to sign checks etc..having agms, meetings etc..or not, no big deal here.. You trusted him.. Good luck[/quote] why does one need the law or agreements, if there is no justice (justice must be seen to be done ! Also in Thailand partner of the UN) [/quote] There is a law and even if it is unfair they are still answerable to the law.There is justice but in part it's questionable how strong your case is. Small company, non majority owner etc..importance of the defendants..etc.. Guys who have gone to court in terms of divorce or custody have prevailed so it's not a complete loss...but in business, real estate etc..that's another issue.

[helle]

 

 

I think you need to carefully think about how much you have lost, what it will cost and can you trust anyone. I have had a lot of support, 2 lawyers who have ignored "offers" etc.. The defendants are very influential..I don't really expect to win..but I don't like being taken advantage of..but on reflection it has been stressful. I can ask my lawyer if they know someone in issarn if you are going to continue. You have learnt something about Thailand when it comes to business..as have I..my advise to you is to write it off and start again. So basically you opened a business with a partner ( this lawyer ), you are probably a minority shareholder, he used his responsibility to mis appropriate funds. I presume he had authority to sign checks etc..having agms, meetings etc..or not, no big deal here.. You trusted him.. Good luck

why does one need the law or agreements, if there is no justice (justice must be seen to be done ! Also in Thailand partner of the UN)

 

There is a law and even if it is unfair they are still answerable to the law.There is justice but in part it's questionable how strong your case is. Small company, non majority owner etc..importance of the defendants..etc..

Guys who have gone to court in terms of divorce or custody have prevailed so it's not a complete loss...but in business, real estate etc..that's another issue.

 

I know , i'ts not a game "justice" and i  trust the business court in all countries where Belgium has a agreement, I suspect, the judge in "Isaan" has knowledge of this investments agreement, I handed over to the police interrogation officer " translated in thai!" The hearing of the police officer was requested by the judge of the civil court !

 

Yes I think the "invest agreement  and the "LTD" law CCC" is verry important and clear in my case.

TRUST,PATIENCE, and HONESTY !

[helle]

My question is ? Will I be allowed to read the case-file ? If so, when and where ?

Edited January 6, 2014 by metisdead
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[rayongchelsea]

If you are the plaintiff your lawyer will have to submit the claim, if that is what you refer to the case file, I see no reason why not. Sorry if I have misunderstood. The claim ( case file) will have to have been submitted at the civil court by your lawyer.At that time you will be assigned the date for arbitration.

[helle]

If you are the plaintiff your lawyer will have to submit the claim, if that is what you refer to the case file, I see no reason why not. Sorry if I have misunderstood. The claim ( case file) will have to have been submitted at the civil court by your lawyer.At that time you will be assigned the date for arbitration.

My lawyer make the papers and I pay the court 2% off the claim ! Claim in time to the civil court ! and my lawyer make appointment for the first confrontation !

 

The first confrontation at the civil court the the defendant wanted to make a deal ( pay1/5 of the claim  and i told his lawyer "no")

 Also The first time I was there I just had to sign a document in order to open the investigation.  

 

At the 2nd session (six weeks later) the defendant was not there! My lawyer made ​​a second claim against the director personal name (so, 1 claim but not only the Director /Manager of the "LTD" also on the personal name "off the Director".

 

In Europe "if the defendant does not appear at a court hearing" is considered "contempt of court" and become generally condemned in absentia (Easy!)

 

? = Will I be allowed to read the case-file ?

Case -file = Questions put to the accused by the police and the answers of the accused ! (All) The "official" police papers of the investigation.(Like in Europe !)

[helle]

? = Will I be allowed to read the case-file ?

Case -file = Questions put to the accused by the police and the answers of the accused ! (All) The "official police " and other papers (documents) of the investigation.(Like in Europe !)

 

[noodle]

My lawyer make the papers and I pay the court 2% off the claim ! Claim in time to the civil court ! and my lawyer make appointment for the first confrontation !

Confrontation = negotiated settlement = Compromise.

In Europe "if the defendant does not appear at a court hearing" is considered "contempt of court" and become generally condemned in absentia (Easy!)

Compromise meetings are not court hearings so no contempt.

? = Will I be allowed to read the case-file ?

I assume that a judge ordered these compromise sessions in which case the case from your lawyer has been accepted by the court (the court accepted the 2% fee). The case file is basically the one submitted by your lawyer and is available to read at the court office or from your lawyer.

My understanding (not quite sure) is that police and defendant lawyer files will not be entered until the case gets to taking evidence stage inside a court room. Edited December 31, 2013 by noodle

[rayongchelsea]

[quote name="noodle" post="7227523" timestamp="1388456840"]My lawyer make the papers and I pay the court 2% off the claim ! Claim in time to the civil court ! and my lawyer make appointment for the first confrontation ! Confrontation = negotiated settlement = Compromise. In Europe "if the defendant does not appear at a court hearing" is considered "contempt of court" and become generally condemned in absentia (Easy!) Compromise meetings are not court hearings so no contempt. ? = Will I be allowed to read the case-file ? I assume that a judge ordered these compromise sessions in which case the case from your lawyer has been accepted by the court (the court accepted the 2% fee). The case file is basically the one submitted by your lawyer and is available to read at the court office or from your lawyer. My understanding (not quite sure) is that police and defendant lawyer files will not be entered until the case gets to taking evidence stage inside a court room.[/quote] Well explained. you as the plaintiff will not have access to their case file, the only access you will have will be when the defendant submits documents to the court during the court hearing. Good luck.

[helle]

 

My lawyer make the papers and I pay the court 2% off the claim ! Claim in time to the civil court ! and my lawyer make appointment for the first confrontation !

Confrontation = negotiated settlement = Compromise.

In Europe "if the defendant does not appear at a court hearing" is considered "contempt of court" and become generally condemned in absentia (Easy!)

Compromise meetings are not court hearings so no contempt.

? = Will I be allowed to read the case-file ?

I assume that a judge ordered these compromise sessions in which case the case from your lawyer has been accepted by the court (the court accepted the 2% fee). The case file is basically the one submitted by your lawyer and is available to read at the court office or from your lawyer.

My understanding (not quite sure) is that police and defendant lawyer files will not be entered until the case gets to taking evidence stage inside a court room.

Well explained.

you as the plaintiff will not have access to their case file, the only access you will have will be when the defendant submits documents to the court during the court hearing.

Good luck.

 

thank you ,  'good luck' that's what I'll need. In Thailand one  never knows. ! This time I'll not have my translator with me  (translator  asks  6000Bath for little work- 6000 Bath in this  region of Thailand = very well paid for little work ! )  I think these prices are so high  (I call them "bangkok prices") because they don't want to work 'against' their own compatriots, especially not in favour for a foreigner (like many lawyers)

 

And as  for 2014 I hope that  the prosecutor  will eventually start a criminal case against the director ! or that the Belgian  government will find the right key to open a criminal case. If not, the director of the company (even convicted by civil court) will have wun and as a result this won't be an incentive to prevent future cases of theft, burglary, threat  or forgery.

[recycler]

I would advise to work with a law firm that is recommended by the Belgium/Thai Chamber that has experience with similar cases. This will most likely be a BKK firm, so it's gonna cost you. Get an estimate and weigh it against our losses.

 

Proceedings in a Thai court are in Thai and so is the case file and it's not very likely that the judge or other dignitaries present will understand a lot of what you will say in English. I've met a lot of legal professionals in Thailand and most of them don't speak proper English. You will have to rely on a lawyer and your best change of a good English speaker is BKK anyway.

 

I have seen similar cases before and this can take very long to resolve, you will need patience, persistence and money to get this through. Make very sure that you can trust your lawyer, they should preferably depend on referrals from your Belgian Chamber.

 

Good luck!