Poverty Amongst Farangs in Chiang Mai

[NoshowJones]

I have said this before on this forum, and I'm going to say it again. Before the first time I went on holiday to America, I was reading a magazine about American culture. It said be prepared to give about 20% of your spending money on tips,

Being the Rebel I am, I gave nothing for the four weeks I was there, or the few times I have been since. I am not a Cheap Charlie, but I decide what I do, not what any person, or magazine says. I got a few replies from posters slagging me off because of it, so here we go again.

Yes, you are a Cheap Charlie who cheated some waiters. Let me explain America to you.

Tipping is so ingrained in the culture that the IRS presumes a food server gets tipped and taxes her for it even if she doesn't get it. It is withheld from her check whether she got it or not.

Second, the US government has a minimum wage and each state can make it even higher. Even so, it is low. Because it is presumed that food servers get tips, and employer is allowed to pay a food server less than minimum wage. The server relies on the tips to make a basic, taxed wage.

So the next time you are so proud of yourself for not tipping an American food server (who I'll bet gave you great service) just remember that you actually cheated her and her family.

So here's one more poster slagging you off as not understanding either the culture or the laws.

Please stay home.

Was it not you who said much the same the last time I posted this, no employer should depend on tips to give their employees a decent wage, no matter whether it is in America or not. The only people who are cheating the waiters, are the American government, and to a lesser extent, the empioyer. But again that's capitalism.

[chiang mai]

My god, the arrogance is breathtaking, presuming to dictate how we must spend our money whilst eating in America, just because it's the done thing!

[eyecatcher]

But what did all those catering staff do with their 10bts....

Maybe they took your 10B tip and along with a few other 10B tips they paid a bill or bought something to eat. Ever think about that?

I know when I was in the university I worked at a restaurant waiting tables. If it wasn't for my tips I wouldn't have paid my bills, my salary was crap.

Tips fed me and paid most of my bills.

Yes but you can't expect customers to subsidise the salaries of other peoples staff.

I know that's of no comfort to those who cannot appeal for more but even in careers,education and business its the survival of the fittest....and always will be.

[robhufton]

Observe the Chinese, talk to local business owners, and you will find they are as cheap as they come, putting these "kineow" farangs to shame. The Chinese will demand discounts for Thai massages,180 instead of 200 THB, whereas the cheap farang will pay the full 200 and no tip or maybe 20THB.

I used to tease and give a little crap to cheap farangs who wouldn't tip. Now I say more power to them, and I myself have cut the amount of my tips by quite a bit. Some day I'll join the enlightened few.

The Chinese were known to be cheap long ago. About 15 years ago, I was in Pokhara in central Nepal. I had been hanging out for the day with a group of about 5 or 6 young Chinese that were traveling in Nepal. We were in a small shop and I watched the group do some hard bargaining with the shop owner. After about 20 minutes of bargaining, we left and they had bought nothing despite the hard bargaining. I was staying in Pokhara for a few days and went by the shop again a couple of days later. I spoke to the owner about what I had seen and he said he always hated to have Chinese come to his shop because they always wanted to bargain to get to the last rupee and then seldom bought anything. From what I have seen of the Chinese tourists in Chiang Mai, they haven't changed much in the past decade plus.

David

Are you sure that they weren't Indians?

[Loles]

Observe the Chinese, talk to local business owners, and you will find they are as cheap as they come, putting these "kineow" farangs to shame. The Chinese will demand discounts for Thai massages,180 instead of 200 THB, whereas the cheap farang will pay the full 200 and no tip or maybe 20THB.

I used to tease and give a little crap to cheap farangs who wouldn't tip. Now I say more power to them, and I myself have cut the amount of my tips by quite a bit. Some day I'll join the enlightened few.

The Chinese were known to be cheap long ago. About 15 years ago, I was in Pokhara in central Nepal. I had been hanging out for the day with a group of about 5 or 6 young Chinese that were traveling in Nepal. We were in a small shop and I watched the group do some hard bargaining with the shop owner. After about 20 minutes of bargaining, we left and they had bought nothing despite the hard bargaining. I was staying in Pokhara for a few days and went by the shop again a couple of days later. I spoke to the owner about what I had seen and he said he always hated to have Chinese come to his shop because they always wanted to bargain to get to the last rupee and then seldom bought anything. From what I have seen of the Chinese tourists in Chiang Mai, they haven't changed much in the past decade plus.

David

Just talk about Chinese tourists ...

But we have a big Chinese population here in BKK and they are the biggest "keenieow" team around the world, if they sale something they want to get a metric ton gold for nothing, and if they buy something their bargain plan is 1 Bath.

[Mousehound]

I notice that my tip has got smaller as I have got older. At this rate I will have no tip to offer anyone even if I would like to.

[FiftyTwo]

Go into any restaurant, ask to see the owner.

"Hi, I don't believe in tipping, can I eat here, or would you prefer me to go elsewhere"

What do you tippers think the answer will be?

Try it at the Dukes or Mad Dogs or Sausage King, the boss is usually hanging around.

PS

This is a trick question, I already know the answer.

Edited January 20, 2014 by FiftyTwo

[Ulysses G.]

Go into any restaurant, ask to see the owner.

"Hi, I don't believe in tipping, can I eat here, or would you prefer me to go elsewhere"

What do you tippers think the answer will be?

It might make more sense to ask the staff who will be handling your food.

[smotherb]

Looking at some of the posts on here, is poverty a real problem with farangs here?

You may have hit a raw nerve there...

Shhh... Don't disturb the elephant in the room

It seems obvious. Look at the numbers who claim to live well on less than B20k/mo; then see how many of retirement age can't even qualify for the monetary minimums needed for the visa; then look at the numbers of derelicts/drunks who use the convenient overstay option to remain in country.

[FiftyTwo]

Looking at some of the posts on here, is poverty a real problem with farangs here?

You may have hit a raw nerve there...

Shhh... Don't disturb the elephant in the room

It seems obvious. Look at the numbers who claim to live well on less than B20k/mo; then see how many of retirement age can't even qualify for the monetary minimums needed for the visa; then look at the numbers of derelicts/drunks who use the convenient overstay option to remain in country.

20k a month is 6k more than my bank's home loan manager is paid.

20k a month is 5k more than my kid's kindergarten teacher (government employee) is paid.

Do you need to have more than a Thai with an education and a good job earns to live well?

[chiang mai]

withdrawn, can't be bothered to debate this.

Edited January 20, 2014 by chiang mai

[smotherb]

Looking at some of the posts on here, is poverty a real problem with farangs here?

You may have hit a raw nerve there...

Shhh... Don't disturb the elephant in the room

It seems obvious. Look at the numbers who claim to live well on less than B20k/mo; then see how many of retirement age can't even qualify for the monetary minimums needed for the visa; then look at the numbers of derelicts/drunks who use the convenient overstay option to remain in country.

20k a month is 6k more than my bank's home loan manager is paid.

20k a month is 5k more than my kid's kindergarten teacher (government employee) is paid.

Do you need to have more than a Thai with an education and a good job earns to live well?

Sure, you are a falang, things will cost you more, you have different tastes. Now, if I wanted to live like a Thai, I would try a wealthier Thai. My Thai neighbors have businesses, they drive new cars and trucks, have nice houses, go out to eat, take vacations, send their kids to college, and the man usually has a mia noi or two on the side. More my style, yet I'll wager I still spend more than they do--and I am not supporting a wife/gf's extended family. Yet I still spend less than I would with the same lifestyle back home. It greatly depends on HOW you live. I've always thought you should go through life not caring what the prices were on the right side of the menu. If you want it, get it--within reason of course, I've only had one Bentley.

[sharktooth]

Looking at some of the posts on here, is poverty a real problem with farangs here?

You may have hit a raw nerve there...

Shhh... Don't disturb the elephant in the room

It seems obvious. Look at the numbers who claim to live well on less than B20k/mo; then see how many of retirement age can't even qualify for the monetary minimums needed for the visa; then look at the numbers of derelicts/drunks who use the convenient overstay option to remain in country.

20k a month is 6k more than my bank's home loan manager is paid.

20k a month is 5k more than my kid's kindergarten teacher (government employee) is paid.

Do you need to have more than a Thai with an education and a good job earns to live well?

20k a month seriously? I burn that in a week, excluding rent...

[theDukes]

 

I notice that my tip has got smaller as I have got older. At this rate I will have no tip to offer anyone even if I would like to.

 

I have also noticed that my tip has gotten smaller as I have gotten older. Part of this is because as my belly has grown it is harder to see. But I am willing to say that as long as I have something available, I will tip. As far as tipping for service goes I tip well and get great service.

[amykat]

20k a month is 6k more than my bank's home loan manager is paid.

20k a month is 5k more than my kid's kindergarten teacher (government employee) is paid.

Do you need to have more than a Thai with an education and a good job earns to live well?

20k a month seriously? I burn that in a week, excluding rent...

First, I want to say that this turning into a tipping thread, sucks! Next, I am not sure if Sharktooth just has not gotten out much in life, or what, but I think many and all standards of foreign people live here. The only missing portion might be very wealthy, for the most part, although there might be a few. Certainly we all are represented with various incomes and various responsibilities, or vices, or whatever.

Some foreigners have very good incomes, BUT, they support 12 Thai people, or 55 dogs, and charities, or both. Some are working age and work, and have a family, and pay for that, and try to save for retirement, and try to save for trips overseas for 6 people so they can visit their family, etc.

Some have disabilities, some have vice problems, some have women problems, some have no problems, and good money, little money, middle money ...what is the problem with this? Like everywhere, people have various amounts of money. And some people are good with money, some people are terrible with money, etc.

I am finding your comment, above, Sharktooth, a bit arrogant, but I think you may be new here, so it is totally understandable. Personally, I have a physical disability, and moved here rather young, as expats go here. Yet I SAVE about double what you SPEND each week, for the 9 years I have been here. But I SPEND less than you do, excluding rent too, as I own a home here, and my car, and whatever else. I also support a child here, in private schools, and do more than a normal share of contributing to animal welfare and my own personal (huge) pack of dogs.

Because I am totally self-supporting, my income has changed a bit due to the finanical crisis, and I found it necessary to really clamp down for some years, BUT, so that I could keep up with my savings goals mostly. And in order to not make my child suffer, I chose to cut things, where I suffered. And as well, I have a constant, and never-ending amount of medical bills, large enough that some people, could live on my medical expenses alone.

Am I poor? I don't think so. Am I worthy of some sort of disdain from you, or others because I tip, don't tip, tip too little, tip too much (because I am an American after all) or because I shop for cheese on sale at Rimping?? I think I am rather smart with money, which includes my decision to live in CM, or Thailand in general. This has enabled me to survive, rather well and with some comfort, I have been able to adopt a child, not have a child as mistake, or for some other reason. I have a big and serious love of animals which can be indulged here, and help some. I have managed to make money here, save for the future, just like if I had a good job in the US, but in my own way, that I can handle, and that I am good at. (I don't mean to say I have a business here, or do any work per se, I am just a decent investor.)

So, what are you trying to judge exactly? There are so many variables, to each person's life ..how can you judge that? I think most people who moved here, should be awarded several awards, for courage, for flexibility, for independence, for willingness to take risks, for trying to make the most of what they had, in ways both with money and other things, and for so many things, well I would need to really think this out to make the best response ...I can get back to you in a few days! But this is what came immediately to my mind.

Anyway, it would be great if this thread could get off tipping, who gives a damn! We really have much more important things we could be discussing in place of that!

[AngelsLariat]

Go into any restaurant, ask to see the owner.

"Hi, I don't believe in tipping, can I eat here, or would you prefer me to go elsewhere"

What do you tippers think the answer will be?

Try it at the Dukes or Mad Dogs or Sausage King, the boss is usually hanging around.

PS

This is a trick question, I already know the answer.

I'm sure that their answer must be that tipping is optional. But so what?

[Oscar2]

Looking at some of the posts on here, is poverty a real problem with farangs here?

You may have hit a raw nerve there...

Shhh... Don't disturb the elephant in the room

It seems obvious. Look at the numbers who claim to live well on less than B20k/mo; then see how many of retirement age can't even qualify for the monetary minimums needed for the visa; then look at the numbers of derelicts/drunks who use the convenient overstay option to remain in country.

20k a month is 6k more than my bank's home loan manager is paid.

20k a month is 5k more than my kid's kindergarten teacher (government employee) is paid.

Do you need to have more than a Thai with an education and a good job earns to live well?

i think you will find that higher ups in banks earn a lot more than 20K per month. the wife has a close friend in Bangkok who has worked for a number of major banks. i believe she works for SCB, not sure. i don't know what her exact title is but she makes about 65K per month and drives a Benz.

[sharktooth]

20k a month is 6k more than my bank's home loan manager is paid.

20k a month is 5k more than my kid's kindergarten teacher (government employee) is paid.

Do you need to have more than a Thai with an education and a good job earns to live well?

20k a month seriously? I burn that in a week, excluding rent...

First, I want to say that this turning into a tipping thread, sucks! Next, I am not sure if Sharktooth just has not gotten out much in life, or what, but I think many and all standards of foreign people live here. The only missing portion might be very wealthy, for the most part, although there might be a few. Certainly we all are represented with various incomes and various responsibilities, or vices, or whatever.

Some foreigners have very good incomes, BUT, they support 12 Thai people, or 55 dogs, and charities, or both. Some are working age and work, and have a family, and pay for that, and try to save for retirement, and try to save for trips overseas for 6 people so they can visit their family, etc.

Some have disabilities, some have vice problems, some have women problems, some have no problems, and good money, little money, middle money ...what is the problem with this? Like everywhere, people have various amounts of money. And some people are good with money, some people are terrible with money, etc.

I am finding your comment, above, Sharktooth, a bit arrogant, but I think you may be new here, so it is totally understandable. Personally, I have a physical disability, and moved here rather young, as expats go here. Yet I SAVE about double what you SPEND each week, for the 9 years I have been here. But I SPEND less than you do, excluding rent too, as I own a home here, and my car, and whatever else. I also support a child here, in private schools, and do more than a normal share of contributing to animal welfare and my own personal (huge) pack of dogs.

Because I am totally self-supporting, my income has changed a bit due to the finanical crisis, and I found it necessary to really clamp down for some years, BUT, so that I could keep up with my savings goals mostly. And in order to not make my child suffer, I chose to cut things, where I suffered. And as well, I have a constant, and never-ending amount of medical bills, large enough that some people, could live on my medical expenses alone.

Am I poor? I don't think so. Am I worthy of some sort of disdain from you, or others because I tip, don't tip, tip too little, tip too much (because I am an American after all) or because I shop for cheese on sale at Rimping?? I think I am rather smart with money, which includes my decision to live in CM, or Thailand in general. This has enabled me to survive, rather well and with some comfort, I have been able to adopt a child, not have a child as mistake, or for some other reason. I have a big and serious love of animals which can be indulged here, and help some. I have managed to make money here, save for the future, just like if I had a good job in the US, but in my own way, that I can handle, and that I am good at. (I don't mean to say I have a business here, or do any work per se, I am just a decent investor.)

So, what are you trying to judge exactly? There are so many variables, to each person's life ..how can you judge that? I think most people who moved here, should be awarded several awards, for courage, for flexibility, for independence, for willingness to take risks, for trying to make the most of what they had, in ways both with money and other things, and for so many things, well I would need to really think this out to make the best response ...I can get back to you in a few days! But this is what came immediately to my mind.

Anyway, it would be great if this thread could get off tipping, who gives a dam_n! We really have much more important things we could be discussing in place of that!

Yeah you're right sweetheart, I don't get out much. Worked in six different countries last year. My arse is killing me sitting at home doing nowt. Didn't judge on the poverty level of farangs, merely observed and asked a question. If you want to spit the dummy, then that's your choice. Edited January 20, 2014 by sharktooth

[Mapguy]

Lovely post above, amykat! Poverty is relative to personal taste, habits, goals and (especially for the elderly) medical condition. It is not to judge, but in extreme circumstances, there can be a significant problem.

One person's wretched excess is another's basic necessity. On the other hand (and I hope this thread gets off the tipping discussion, which is hardly a reflection of basic economic condition), there are older foreigners in Thailand, many isolated from country and family, who really don't have a lot of money.

To oversimplify the situation --- and leaving out those who are young and carefree --- you might say you have three groups of elderly. You have the "loners," those who are isolated from home country by choice or circumstance, who might or might not have some sort of informal network (often really just similar foreigners) in Thailand. Some of them haven't stashed away too much cash and live on minimal government pensions. You have foreigners who have come as a couple so they are not really isolated. And you have those which have settled in with a Thai family, maybe simply a Thai partner or, if they are lucky, an extended family. You really can't tell if most have "enough." Enough for what? Mostly!

But look around. Clearly there is a group of foreigners from countries with social systems far advanced to what is available to them in Thailand who really shouldn't be here. They need to be back in their home country for appropriate support and care. Some are living so poorly that they can not afford to meet the simple generous minimal rules of Thai non-immigration policy. That's sad. And Thailand is really not geared to support them. They are like orphans left on the doorstep where there is no real orphanage. They really belong back where they came from.

[amykat]

Sharktooth,

I had to look up "spit the dummy" ...and it said, "to overreact to a situation in a childish fashion, in an angry or frustrated manner (for adults)" I can't see where, or how I have done this.

Appreciate the "sweetheart" but can only assume it was used in a manner, not normally intended to be "sweet."

So, if you get out so much, to so many countries, why aren't you in touch with various people, having various amounts of money and living in varied circumstances?

Or are we getting closer to the truth of the matter with your thread, that you were just trying to brag, more or less? And now you are feeling offended and spiteful to hear someone here makes more money than you, and she might be a woman to boot?? And she might not even have to WORK to do that?

Is this crushing some of your preconceived ideas about people? I really never would have expected this response from you, but it seems to say a lot.

[flamesfan]

I am a cheap charlie, I am also very wise with money and hence I am now very well off.

And despite some thinking that's mental illness I assure you I don't have it.

But remember we have to budget for the next 20yrs not the next month so I don't want to be panicking that's its all gone after 5 years....and I am sure you don't either

Too bad !! You will die a cheap charlie!! I can't believe the number of cheap charlies here in Chiang Mai! I own a restaurant here, and if you can't leave 5 baht for a tip to someone who makes 10% of what you make, you should not live here! Your not well off! You are a miser who will die with your money! You are what we call in Chaing Mai a worm! Go back to the rock you crawled under!!

[mimithewoof]

In an ideal world, we humans would be judged as to our humanity, not by our bank accounts. Unfortunately, neither Thailand nor our home countries nor anywhere else on this planet are ideal worlds. Consumerism rules, but it darn well shouldn't!

Sadly, I don't find much difference between the expat community here and the (occasionally sub-human)humans in my former UK business sector - this is one of the major disappointments of my move here. I'm aware that the same issue is found in the Thai middle classes and the elite, but in the local rural Thai community I don't see it expressed in the same manner, which is why I only come into town when it's absolutely necessary.

To me it's no coincidence that the longest threads with the most acid comments here are always about money! No change there, then...just an old life transferred from the West to the East. What's the point of that?

By the way, I live relatively frugally because that's the way I was brought up, not because I have to and, as for Brits never tipping, this lady does, provided the service demands it.

[dave2]

re

We really have much more important things we could be discussing in place of that!

yaaaaaaayyy

dave2

[funcat]

...at 'THE END'...what difference does it make ??!!...just be what/who you are...A Good Man/Person !! ...that's what counts...

[Thighlander]

I am a cheap charlie, I am also very wise with money and hence I am now very well off.

And despite some thinking that's mental illness I assure you I don't have it.

But remember we have to budget for the next 20yrs not the next month so I don't want to be panicking that's its all gone after 5 years....and I am sure you don't either

Too bad !! You will die a cheap charlie!! I can't believe the number of cheap charlies here in Chiang Mai! I own a restaurant here, and if you can't leave 5 baht for a tip to someone who makes 10% of what you make, you should not live here! Your not well off! You are a miser who will die with your money! You are what we call in Chaing Mai a worm! Go back to the rock you crawled under!!

Since you are their boss, it would seem like you would be the main reason they make 10% of what the retiree makes. High prices almost always mean less tip. I made a lot more dollarwise and percentage wise delivering valuewise Italian food than selling 6 Dollar beers to drunks at pro baseball games.

[puukao]

Based on the responses, a nerve was hit. Ah, no need to explain yourselves. If i see some 400 pound guy spend 30,000 on whatever, trust me, I don't care. If he was fit, rich, smart, and had a great g/f/wife, then I might wonder a little more. Money is clearly only one part of the human "puzzle" in search of happiness. I am definitely cheap in CM; cheap rooms, cheap living, cheap food (5 days a week), and 150 to 200 baht massages. I walk or bike instead of tuk-tuk, and spend almost nothing on alcohol. I bought a laptop and bike; 90,000 baht on things i felt were important to me. I also left 150,000 baht under budget, which was fine. it's like a game. I am going to a poorer country to experience something. When I went to NYC, I spent $300 on a meal with a friend. That's the game there. IF I didn't travel alone, I would certainly ask my g/f where she would want to stay. and that could change everything. which is also fine.

[Chiengmaijoe]

I don't think many people here have anything against people living within their means, living a quiet life or even being frugal with their money, but what is clear to anyone that peruses TVCM is that it comes across that a disproportionate number of people living here are obsessive about the price of everything and not only that, have a bad attitude that comes across as believing that everyone is out to cheat them so consequentially they are miserable moaning wingers. Half of these guys are not struggling to get by on fixed incomes, they are just having trouble adjusting to a different culture, have lost the plot and are sad and unhappy. Unfortunately for us they need to share their misery with someone and this forum seems to be the main avenue of their grievances.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's who I think the op was referring to and if that's the case I'm in full agreement, as you are probably aware already.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Chiengmaijoe

[Thighlander]

It's kind of a game, and since we can't work, why not? Walking with a nice cold beer vs. taking a tuk-tuk? Those are some of the tough decisions we can make, partially because we have the time to do so. Make no mistake about it; the Thais are great students and teachers of the same game. I remember a Thai friend asking me how much I had spent for my haircut in Hang Dong. I was proud of myself and perfectly content getting a good haircut and some nice bump and grind for 50 THB, and add 20 THB for the 19 yo daughter to pick me up and take me home on the motorbike. But my Thai friend shook his head and said pointed to his hair and said "som sip Thighlander."

[Chiengmaijoe]

It's also worth noting that it is the tight-arsed moaners that normally introduce the topic of tipping to these posts and that is not because they want to justify their own non- tipping habits but rather they want to castigate those that do tip because it is 'spoiling it for the rest of us', which is another of their catchphrases.

All I can say to that one is ' thanks guys', because by tipping I now know that not only am I making a small contribution to easing someone's financial burden I'm also getting the benefit of irritating a mean-spirited moaner.

As I said, I have nothing against the people happily getting by, minding their own business, living within their means, it's the mean-spirited moaners who seem to delight in telling us about their short-fallings that interest me. Some are annoying, but to be fair, most of of them I find amusing. In fact, so much so that my wife now knows that if I happen to wake her up at 3am by laughing out loud from the next room, it's probably because I'm looking at TVCM. Keep 'em coming.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Chiengmaijoe

[Chiengmaijoe]

It's kind of a game, and since we can't work, why not? Walking with a nice cold beer vs. taking a tuk-tuk? Those are some of the tough decisions we can make, partially because we have the time to do so. Make no mistake about it; the Thais are great students and teachers of the same game. I remember a Thai friend asking me how much I had spent for my haircut in Hang Dong. I was proud of myself and perfectly content getting a good haircut and some nice bump and grind for 50 THB, and add 20 THB for the 19 yo daughter to pick me up and take me home on the motorbike. But my Thai friend shook his head and said pointed to his hair and said "som sip Thighlander."

We can't work? Not only do some of us work, we have to. Lucky you, I say.

You don't really walk along the street drinking beer do you? Where I'm from only down and out winos drink in public.

.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Chiengmaijoe