The North will rise again (Red shirts advocate secession)

[Larry]

We have to be prepared for secession now, so before someone else gets the idea, I've written a proposed national anthem.

RED SHIRT REBEL YELL: THE NORTH SHALL RISE AGAIN

PROPOSED ANTHEM: (THE NORTH IS RED)

TUNE: DIXIE

I'm glad to be in the Land of Lanna

Greatest place in Sipsongpanna

Look away, Look away, Look away, Lanna Land

In Old Chiangmai where I was born

On a smoky April morning

But I'll stay, yes I'll stay, right here in Lanna Land

Here we love our eatin' and kissin'

And you're welcome, friends from Issan

Look away, Look away, Look away, Lanna Land

Yingluck, she looks mighty pretty

We like KaoSoi in Chiangmai City

Every day, every day, every day in Lanna Land

Bangkok's flooding like a fountain

But here Suthep is just a mountain

Breakaway, Breakaway, Breakaway Lanna Land

Well, we're pleased to be in Lanna

Hooray, Hooray

In Lanna Land, we'll take our stand

To live or die in Lanna

Away, away, away up north in Lanna

Edited January 30, 2014 by Larry

[northernjohn]

Nice song but to long for a red shirt to remember.

[MESmith]

http://youtu.be/u72f-eMvATE

[dunrudin]

It's pretty obvious to me now that this move was planned all along. I was wondering who was going to move into all the new moo bans and condos.

[Microwave]

New nations' name: Lanna Thai or Shinawatrastan?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The North was separate for much longer than it was a part of Thailand. It's not that crazy an idea.

[96tehtarp]

The North was separate for much longer than it was a part of Thailand. It's not that crazy an idea.

Yes, the idea is not a crazy idea, but floating it in public would be considered by many to be treasonous, seditious, and a conspiracy to commit insurrection.

It seems like everybody these days is either committing treason, sedition, or in a conspiracy to start an insurrection. That's on both sides lately.

[Microwave]

The Patani kingdom began around the 13th or 14th century. It too therefore has the right to leave Thailand?

[Larry]

Catalan voted for secession, and Scotland is poised to do the same. States cobbled together by conquest or by foreign powers are always at risk of breaking up. Forcing them to stay together is usually a bad idea. Iraq, Syria and Libya come to mind. Sometimes, an amicable divorce beats a violent, brutal marriage.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Larry

[jaideeguy]

IF it should happen, it brings up a lot of questions in my mind.............

how will the North export it's products without going thru Enemy country [and visa versa]??

and how will we get to the beach??

and what will happen to the immigration dept??

and will there be border skirmishes??

and will there be a border fence and roadblocks along all the roads going north/south??

and what about the currency issues??

and lots more questions to be answered................

To my eyes, it will create more problems than it will solve.

Edited January 31, 2014 by jaideeguy

[northernjohn]

IF it should happen, it brings up a lot of questions in my mind.............

how will the North export it's products without going thru Enemy country [and visa versa]??

and how will we get to the beach??

and what will happen to the immigration dept??

and will there be border skirmishes??

and will there be a border fence and roadblocks along all the roads going north/south??

and what about the currency issues??

and lots more questions to be answered................

To my eyes, it will create more problems than it will solve.

To add to the list would the North have the gray matter necessary to set up a new country.

How ever it does have a ready made army uniform and all.

[naboo]

Alternative national anthem to the OP. Lets take a British football song, and adapt it:

"Forever and ever

well fight the creme,

were Lanna Kingdom, we reign supreme

well never be mastered

by you southern b******s

well keep the red flag flying high.

Forever and ever

well fight the creme,

were Lanna Kingdom, we reign supreme

well never be mastered

by you southern b******s

well keep the red flag flying high."

Repeat ad nauseum.

Disclaimer - this post in cannot be used as evidence to link myself with the red shirt movement.

[Sparkles]

Catalan voted for secession, and Scotland is poised to do the same. States cobbled together by conquest or by foreign powers are always at risk of breaking up. Forcing them to stay together is usually a bad idea. Iraq, Syria and Libya come to mind. Sometimes, an amicable divorce beats a violent, brutal marriage.

Could use the South Korea /North Korea model

[wolf5370]

Nice song but to long for a red shirt to remember.

Yeah maybe a bastardisation of the Hagar the Horrible song "Crack skull, skull, skull, skull...crack skull, skull, skull, skull..."

//EDIT: Trying to get the bloody embed to work - as usual very hit and miss

Edited February 1, 2014 by wolf5370

[wolf5370]

IF it should happen, it brings up a lot of questions in my mind.............

how will the North export it's products without going thru Enemy country [and visa versa]??

and how will we get to the beach??

and what will happen to the immigration dept??

and will there be border skirmishes??

and will there be a border fence and roadblocks along all the roads going north/south??

and what about the currency issues??

and lots more questions to be answered................

To my eyes, it will create more problems than it will solve.

To add to the list would the North have the gray matter necessary to set up a new country.

How ever it does have a ready made army uniform and all.

The freed American (black) slaves set up Liberia - if ever there was a group uneducated (not through choice of course) - surrounded by the most dangerous and poor countries in the world - two major civil wars since 1980 (when they over threw the Americano-Liberian government). Half a million dead. Independent and peaceful since 2003 (11 years and counting - democratic since 2005 ) with 85+% below the poverty line. If it can be done there, then it certainly can be done here.

A split can be amicable - and include right of passage/right of movement etc - in fact it would benefit both North and South for that to be so - especially if Issan/central plains joined the North as much of the county's food comes from these areas - and account for a fair amount of the export money that goes currently mostly to Bangkok. It is likely at first both parts would absorb the laws of the land - and reform over time - that would include immigration, however a brain drain in the North might require some changes - and the opposite in the South (need for workers) - ASEAN and the need to accommodate would probably end most of those sort of problems anyway. The border would probably be open at first - unless there was a civil war (not amicable) - freedom of movement as said, makes sense at least in the short to medium term. Currency would probably be kept by both at first - assuming they both still keep the monarchy (which is likely and has precedence - such as the UK and Commonwealth) - a single currency would not make sense for long due to the single BOT/SET (supposing for example it is in the South - would impact the North) - so likely a split, sooner rather than later. Issues of citizenship is the real biggie - are they all citizens of both? decided by province of birth? what about where parents are from provinces on either side? International agreements and memberships?

If such a break up were to happen (which is unlikely I guess) then it would probably be better along the lines of devolution than national split - that is, autonomous regions with local parliament (such as currently with Scotland, Wales and NI - before any Scotland independence vote this year and excepting England which has no country level parliament) - and a single national/federal parliament for over reaching and non-local policy (with equal membership). In that way most stays the same - and there could be four regions (perhaps): North / Issan (NE) / Central (including Bangkok) / South (including islands).

//Edit: added the 's' in "The freed American (black) slaves set up Liberia" - apparently it was more than one

Edited February 1, 2014 by wolf5370

[northernjohn]

IF it should happen, it brings up a lot of questions in my mind.............

how will the North export it's products without going thru Enemy country [and visa versa]??

and how will we get to the beach??

and what will happen to the immigration dept??

and will there be border skirmishes??

and will there be a border fence and roadblocks along all the roads going north/south??

and what about the currency issues??

and lots more questions to be answered................

To my eyes, it will create more problems than it will solve.

To add to the list would the North have the gray matter necessary to set up a new country.

How ever it does have a ready made army uniform and all.

The freed American (black) slaves set up Liberia - if ever there was a group uneducated (not through choice of course) - surrounded by the most dangerous and poor countries in the world - two major civil wars since 1980 (when they over threw the Americano-Liberian government). Half a million dead. Independent and peaceful since 2003 (11 years and counting - democratic since 2005 ) with 85+% below the poverty line. If it can be done there, then it certainly can be done here.

A split can be amicable - and include right of passage/right of movement etc - in fact it would benefit both North and South for that to be so - especially if Issan/central plains joined the North as much of the county's food comes from these areas - and account for a fair amount of the export money that goes currently mostly to Bangkok. It is likely at first both parts would absorb the laws of the land - and reform over time - that would include immigration, however a brain drain in the North might require some changes - and the opposite in the South (need for workers) - ASEAN and the need to accommodate would probably end most of those sort of problems anyway. The border would probably be open at first - unless there was a civil war (not amicable) - freedom of movement as said, makes sense at least in the short to medium term. Currency would probably be kept by both at first - assuming they both still keep the monarchy (which is likely and has precedence - such as the UK and Commonwealth) - a single currency would not make sense for long due to the single BOT/SET (supposing for example it is in the South - would impact the North) - so likely a split, sooner rather than later. Issues of citizenship is the real biggie - are they all citizens of both? decided by province of birth? what about where parents are from provinces on either side? International agreements and memberships?

If such a break up were to happen (which is unlikely I guess) then it would probably be better along the lines of devolution than national split - that is, autonomous regions with local parliament (such as currently with Scotland, Wales and NI - before any Scotland independence vote this year and excepting England which has no country level parliament) - and a single national/federal parliament for over reaching and non-local policy (with equal membership). In that way most stays the same - and there could be four regions (perhaps): North / Issan (NE) / Central (including Bangkok) / South (including islands).

//Edit: added the 's' in "The freed American (black) slaves set up Liberia" - apparently it was more than one

The American slaves were set free in 1865. My math tells me that 2003 is 138 years later.

Stick with Suthep's plan it is figured to be 1 year to 1 and 1/2 years. As for the rest of your post why separate if you are going to stay the same. The south would have no trouble getting workers from Cambodia and Burma. Where would the North get the brain power? There is not an unlimited number of Shinawatra's.

[Frank James]

The world is gradually devolving along tribal lines...a counter movement to One World/Globalization.

[wolf5370]

IF it should happen, it brings up a lot of questions in my mind.............

how will the North export it's products without going thru Enemy country [and visa versa]??

and how will we get to the beach??

and what will happen to the immigration dept??

and will there be border skirmishes??

and will there be a border fence and roadblocks along all the roads going north/south??

and what about the currency issues??

and lots more questions to be answered................

To my eyes, it will create more problems than it will solve.

To add to the list would the North have the gray matter necessary to set up a new country.

How ever it does have a ready made army uniform and all.

The freed American (black) slaves set up Liberia - if ever there was a group uneducated (not through choice of course) - surrounded by the most dangerous and poor countries in the world - two major civil wars since 1980 (when they over threw the Americano-Liberian government). Half a million dead. Independent and peaceful since 2003 (11 years and counting - democratic since 2005 ) with 85+% below the poverty line. If it can be done there, then it certainly can be done here.

A split can be amicable - and include right of passage/right of movement etc - in fact it would benefit both North and South for that to be so - especially if Issan/central plains joined the North as much of the county's food comes from these areas - and account for a fair amount of the export money that goes currently mostly to Bangkok. It is likely at first both parts would absorb the laws of the land - and reform over time - that would include immigration, however a brain drain in the North might require some changes - and the opposite in the South (need for workers) - ASEAN and the need to accommodate would probably end most of those sort of problems anyway. The border would probably be open at first - unless there was a civil war (not amicable) - freedom of movement as said, makes sense at least in the short to medium term. Currency would probably be kept by both at first - assuming they both still keep the monarchy (which is likely and has precedence - such as the UK and Commonwealth) - a single currency would not make sense for long due to the single BOT/SET (supposing for example it is in the South - would impact the North) - so likely a split, sooner rather than later. Issues of citizenship is the real biggie - are they all citizens of both? decided by province of birth? what about where parents are from provinces on either side? International agreements and memberships?

If such a break up were to happen (which is unlikely I guess) then it would probably be better along the lines of devolution than national split - that is, autonomous regions with local parliament (such as currently with Scotland, Wales and NI - before any Scotland independence vote this year and excepting England which has no country level parliament) - and a single national/federal parliament for over reaching and non-local policy (with equal membership). In that way most stays the same - and there could be four regions (perhaps): North / Issan (NE) / Central (including Bangkok) / South (including islands).

//Edit: added the 's' in "The freed American (black) slaves set up Liberia" - apparently it was more than one

The American slaves were set free in 1865. My math tells me that 2003 is 138 years later.

Stick with Suthep's plan it is figured to be 1 year to 1 and 1/2 years. As for the rest of your post why separate if you are going to stay the same. The south would have no trouble getting workers from Cambodia and Burma. Where would the North get the brain power? There is not an unlimited number of Shinawatra's.

Yes the slaves were set free a century later, but the country was run as an unflagged American dependency until the 1970s - it was basically an autocracy run by a small number (minority) pro-American set - called Americano-Liberians. The country was only independent after the 80s uprising and ousting of the ALs. So, in effect it only too 23 years (but two very bloody civil wars) - however, I'm just saying that any peoples can set up a country if they set their minds to it.

Suthep's "plan" is far from my mind - and the North would be the one with most issues I would think (as you imply too) - so Suthep would certainly have little to do with the Northern side of the split anyway - the South is already set up as that is where the seat of Government etc is already.

The point is that by devolving you are NOT splitting, but regionalising politics and policies relating to that region - that is, decentralising. This is a good way of giving some autonomy without dividing the country. This is how the UK works, and even the USA (state versus federal).

The brain drain would be caused only if there was a nation split (i.e. two countries) - because in all likelihood business and thus the educated workforce (bankers/it/etc) would move South; people originating in the rural North (N/E) etc would likely move home in fair numbers. Hence a drain of work force. This is all supposition of course/theory. This would settle with policies in the North to encourage business and thus white collar employment - it is also likely that education would get much better as it would be a priority and it would not have the BKK politics to deal with (and a lot of local pressure to do so). Likewise the South would encourage more workforce, as you say, from neighbouring countries. Both would "countries" therefore would be likely to make major changes to immigration and work permit rules at least for the short term - which was why I mentioned it, as by way of attempting to answer "and what will happen to the immigration dept??".

[wolf5370]

The world is gradually devolving along tribal lines...a counter movement to One World/Globalization.

I don't think this is a new phenomenon - the boundaries have always been fluid and new countries arrive and old ones disappear - and it always will, at least until there is a single global "country" that rules it all.

We tend to think that since the passing of those empire days/imperial power, that the world has been pretty static. However, there has been a lot of slitting, new countries and even old ones going over the last 100 years. Just look at the former UUR, China "reclaiming" Tibet and Hong Kong, Eire, Yugoslavia, French Indochina (split and split again), several African countries, and so on. Maybe even Scotland later this year.

[Larry]

I can see Lanna becoming a tax haven, or at least a duty-free zone between China, the new Burma, Singapore, etc. Naturally, rules against reasonable foreign ownership of land would change. Employment, education and transportation would increase markedly once Chiangmai and the north change from spoke to hub.

[jackr]

Catalan voted for secession, and Scotland is poised to do the same. States cobbled together by conquest or by foreign powers are always at risk of breaking up. Forcing them to stay together is usually a bad idea. Iraq, Syria and Libya come to mind. Sometimes, an amicable divorce beats a violent, brutal marriage.

In the case of Scotland, just give the English the chance to vote and you'll see how much they want them in the club.

[northernjohn]

I can see Lanna becoming a tax haven, or at least a duty-free zone between China, the new Burma, Singapore, etc. Naturally, rules against reasonable foreign ownership of land would change. Employment, education and transportation would increase markedly once Chiangmai and the north change from spoke to hub.

Naturally, rules against reasonable foreign ownership of land would change. Employment, education and transportation would increase markedly once Chiangmai and the north change from spoke to hub.

Where would the money come from to improve all these things. I agree they need improving but they would need money and a new way of thinking.

Why would the rules of foreign ownership change? I can understand big industry wanting to own their own land. But I can not understand them wanting to spend their money to get there products out to the rest of the world. They can all ready set up and get cheaper work force in Laos but they do not have accesses to shipping. Distribution would be a huge problem for them.

Would this red shirt country allow the PTP in?

[dave2]

an update of red shirt h q chiang mai two hours ago

the road outside has been sealed off and there were a group of what i thought were camera crews and about fifty people waiting for someone by the look of it and police were not letting anybody cross the front of the building

i did see one soldier with a rifle but there was no trouble . noise or signs of problems until a policeman saw me taking pics and told me to move off which i did

dave2

[kimincm]

Both areas would need access to transport through the others areas - that side of things could get worked out fairly easily.

I say bring it on, saves the country ripping itself to pieces in a civil war.

A referendum would make sense.

I'd like to see your proposed "border" drawn on a map of Thai.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Both areas would need access to transport through the others areas - that side of things could get worked out fairly easily.

I say bring it on, saves the country ripping itself to pieces in a civil war.

A referendum would make sense.

I'd like to see your proposed "border" drawn on a map of Thai.

That doesn't sound too hard? Just along historical/cultural/linguistic lines. Roughly Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Lamphun, Lampang, Phayao, Phrae, Nan and Mae Hong Son.

Muang people.

Not saying this at all likely or even sensible, but it's not hard to draw lines between the various regions / ethnic backgrounds in Thailand; the North was separate from Siam not too long ago. It has been aligned with Siam pretty much since kicking the Burmese out in the late 18th century, and then became a part of it pretty much near the end of the 19th century IIRC.

Edited February 2, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[khwaibah]

an update of red shirt h q chiang mai two hours ago

the road outside has been sealed off and there were a group of what i thought were camera crews and about fifty people waiting for someone by the look of it and police were not letting anybody cross the front of the building

i did see one soldier with a rifle but there was no trouble . noise or signs of problems until a policeman saw me taking pics and told me to move off which i did

dave2

Bomb. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/701748-chiang-mai-bomb-found-in-front-of-redshirt-radio/

[dave2]

re

Bomb.

ohhhh dear !

so thats what they were waiting to see or film ?

not good ... dave2

ps .. the red shirt rally site at chiang puak gate has been

taken down today and there was no activity at their

hq this morning

[ianf]

I think the best idea is to make Red Lanna a part of the United Kingdom, with Parliamentary elections using the first past the post system, sending Thaksin and his family to Whitehall.

This would create huge benefits:

For me: I wouldn't have to renew my Visa every year and report every three months;

For the Mrs: We wouldn't have to go through a thousand hoops to get her to the UK on holiday every year

For Thaksin: It would give him the opportunity to buy the Houses of Parliament, Big Ben and another football club

For Yingluck: She would get some protection from Britain's political correctness

For the Reds: It would give them some idea of what democracy is about.

For the police: They would have access to all the training facilities that the British Bobby enjoys

Shall I propose all this to Doi Suthep and Chalerm so they could have the basis for some negotiation?

[Larry]

I think the best idea is to make Red Lanna a part of the United Kingdom, with Parliamentary elections using the first past the post system, sending Thaksin and his family to Whitehall.

This would create huge benefits:

For me: I wouldn't have to renew my Visa every year and report every three months;

For the Mrs: We wouldn't have to go through a thousand hoops to get her to the UK on holiday every year

For Thaksin: It would give him the opportunity to buy the Houses of Parliament, Big Ben and another football club

For Yingluck: She would get some protection from Britain's political correctness

For the Reds: It would give them some idea of what democracy is about.

For the police: They would have access to all the training facilities that the British Bobby enjoys

Shall I propose all this to Doi Suthep and Chalerm so they could have the basis for some negotiation?

Sure...after all, the UK is likely to lose Scotland with its beautiful highlands, so they can get Lannaland with its beautiful highlands, instead. Better climate, at least.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Larry

[northernjohn]

I think the best idea is to make Red Lanna a part of the United Kingdom, with Parliamentary elections using the first past the post system, sending Thaksin and his family to Whitehall.

This would create huge benefits:

For me: I wouldn't have to renew my Visa every year and report every three months;

For the Mrs: We wouldn't have to go through a thousand hoops to get her to the UK on holiday every year

For Thaksin: It would give him the opportunity to buy the Houses of Parliament, Big Ben and another football club

For Yingluck: She would get some protection from Britain's political correctness

For the Reds: It would give them some idea of what democracy is about.

For the police: They would have access to all the training facilities that the British Bobby enjoys

Shall I propose all this to Doi Suthep and Chalerm so they could have the basis for some negotiation?

By all means Chalerm will have it done in 90 days.