planning to start a small restaurant

[thailiketoo]

My partner is an Executive Chef who I meet in Kenya where she was setting up a very up-market Thai restaurant in the capital. Now we have kids she has "retired" from her profession (she had worked in 17 different countries setting up facilities in hotels as well as restaurants) BUT has over the last 6 years back home set up a number small restaurants in and around Bangkok. My advice - it is bloody tough way to make money - competition is fierce and the price of street food is down in the region of margins as thin as a film of oil on water.

The biggest problems - staff - train them and they leave and it doesn't matter how trusting they are when they start - any profit rapidly disappears out the back door. Very few Thais want to work in the trade so you are having to deal with Cambodians and Burmese (he says with a shudder). The only problem bigger are the relatives - who one is initially tempted to trust - they know I'm an expat (even though I'm totally banned from ever appearing at the facility) and believe my wife to be a successful self made businesswoman (which she is) and therefore honour bound to help out on ever single crisis in their side of the family from school fees to unexpected illness. The daily take shrinks, they blame the waitress and finally you discover it's them - now you have a real family problem - accusing an aunt of "theft". If you have had trouble with the ill laws in the past I can promise - you ain't seen nothing until you insist that your partner finally fire your MiL's sister and tell her she's not to ever come by the restaurant again.

I could go on and on but - the only way it has been marginally profitable was because my partner is a total hospitality professional and knows how to maintain stock - buying meat, prawns etc in BULK and spending hours preparing and freezing meal sized portions. It takes real skill to adjust your buying of vegetables to market and meal preference trends - if not you end up throwing away mountains of stuff.

The problems you can encounter from authorities would take more space than there is to post - but I promise you if you are there it will get worse and secondly if your wife is not bloody bright and experienced at handling life in the small business sector of Thailand - FORGET IT. Life with the SME parasites of Thailand - police, local licensing authorities, health officials, sanitation inspectors, etc etc - is particular difficult and at times harrowing..

Do they have sanitation inspectors in Thailand? How often do they come? What do they do?

[KevinB]

reading all of this fuc_king bull shit just confirms my resolve to go start a new society that is not a police state deep in the jungle!!!

You have obviously not run a restaurant in the States - police expecting a big slice of apple pie with their free coffee. OR a facility in UK - with nit picking health inspectors swabbing the drain plug for germs.

Must be honest I find the Thai police very reasonable and they deliver a service (like watching your property when you are away) for an extremely reasonable price Thb500 = US$16.66 - a lot less than a ticket to the police association Ball . We (our housing complex) as a community have established an excellent relationship with the local police station and get a great and very efficient service - stopping a gang of youth on bikes racing around, investigating suspicious people cruising the neighbourhood and I'm sure a rapid response to any call made when something really goes wrong. Don't know about you but something I'd like to see in any "new society" I go and set up.

[onionluke]

OP , good luck on your endeavour .

Will your restaurant sell local fare or will you have specialities from other parts of Thailand or overseas even ?

[john stevens]

hi..

its not a negative ok ............... but why bother it will only turn out to be a <deleted> night mare in a few months .............. for ever new 1 that opens ..... 10 will be closing .... think thaland has enough so called resturants ...............

good idea but think of something else .................. sorry ........ but been there and got the so called tee shirt like millions of other farngs .....

[doublephil]

I have owned several restaurants in Chiang Mai over the past few years - and 5 staff + wife is definitely OTT for only 10 tables - unless they are just part-time or you intend to pay them a lot less than minimum wage. You won't make any profit. You only need 1 cook and a helper who can help the cook, make drinks and serve the food to the customers + wife helping out when necessary. Police are not interested in a tiny restaurant like that - unless you really annoy someone.

[meatboy]

My partner is an Executive Chef who I meet in Kenya where she was setting up a very up-market Thai restaurant in the capital. Now we have kids she has "retired" from her profession (she had worked in 17 different countries setting up facilities in hotels as well as restaurants) BUT has over the last 6 years back home set up a number small restaurants in and around Bangkok. My advice - it is bloody tough way to make money - competition is fierce and the price of street food is down in the region of margins as thin as a film of oil on water.

The biggest problems - staff - train them and they leave and it doesn't matter how trusting they are when they start - any profit rapidly disappears out the back door. Very few Thais want to work in the trade so you are having to deal with Cambodians and Burmese (he says with a shudder). The only problem bigger are the relatives - who one is initially tempted to trust - they know I'm an expat (even though I'm totally banned from ever appearing at the facility) and believe my wife to be a successful self made businesswoman (which she is) and therefore honour bound to help out on ever single crisis in their side of the family from school fees to unexpected illness. The daily take shrinks, they blame the waitress and finally you discover it's them - now you have a real family problem - accusing an aunt of "theft". If you have had trouble with the ill laws in the past I can promise - you ain't seen nothing until you insist that your partner finally fire your MiL's sister and tell her she's not to ever come by the restaurant again.

I could go on and on but - the only way it has been marginally profitable was because my partner is a total hospitality professional and knows how to maintain stock - buying meat, prawns etc in BULK and spending hours preparing and freezing meal sized portions. It takes real skill to adjust your buying of vegetables to market and meal preference trends - if not you end up throwing away mountains of stuff.

The problems you can encounter from authorities would take more space than there is to post - but I promise you if you are there it will get worse and secondly if your wife is not bloody bright and experienced at handling life in the small business sector of Thailand - FORGET IT. Life with the SME parasites of Thailand - police, local licensing authorities, health officials, sanitation inspectors, etc etc - is particular difficult and at times harrowing..

never a more true'r word spoken,i used to do accounts for independent retailers so I know all the ins and outs of trying to make a BOB or two.i know quite a few who are trying to make a living and by Christ its hard.even if you make it a success there will always be someone who will set up next to you or will want a slice of the pie.lets hope the op.thinks it over before committing himself and his few bob.

[finnomick]

Most important thing: without a work permit you can of course be in your restaurant. But most likely you'll attract attention from the police and they will track every movement. Even you do the slightest of work (serve a plate, wash dishes) they will hold up the law against you.

simply supervise as she will be hiring 1-2 "chefs" and 3 wait-staff

which should suffice for 10 tables.

Seems overkill to me. Think about the overhead. You'll be unlikely to make a profit unless you serve expensive high margin food.

Mate of mine has a bar in one of the ' resorts '. He does nil work in the bar but often sits at the bar for a drink. He has been fined ( I'm not sure if it was by the police or Immigration police ) for greeting the bar's customers...waste of time owning a bar if that's the treatment you can expect

[sniffdog]

Correct, I don't say it would happen outside Bangkok/Pattaya, but I know there are documented cases where the 'director' of a small bar/restaurant in Patttaya served a drink and was promptly arrested.

[canuckoverseas]

My partner is an Executive Chef who I meet in Kenya where she was setting up a very up-market Thai restaurant in the capital. Now we have kids she has "retired" from her profession (she had worked in 17 different countries setting up facilities in hotels as well as restaurants) BUT has over the last 6 years back home set up a number small restaurants in and around Bangkok. My advice - it is bloody tough way to make money - competition is fierce and the price of street food is down in the region of margins as thin as a film of oil on water.

The biggest problems - staff - train them and they leave and it doesn't matter how trusting they are when they start - any profit rapidly disappears out the back door. Very few Thais want to work in the trade so you are having to deal with Cambodians and Burmese (he says with a shudder). The only problem bigger are the relatives - who one is initially tempted to trust - they know I'm an expat (even though I'm totally banned from ever appearing at the facility) and believe my wife to be a successful self made businesswoman (which she is) and therefore honour bound to help out on ever single crisis in their side of the family from school fees to unexpected illness. The daily take shrinks, they blame the waitress and finally you discover it's them - now you have a real family problem - accusing an aunt of "theft". If you have had trouble with the ill laws in the past I can promise - you ain't seen nothing until you insist that your partner finally fire your MiL's sister and tell her she's not to ever come by the restaurant again.

I could go on and on but - the only way it has been marginally profitable was because my partner is a total hospitality professional and knows how to maintain stock - buying meat, prawns etc in BULK and spending hours preparing and freezing meal sized portions. It takes real skill to adjust your buying of vegetables to market and meal preference trends - if not you end up throwing away mountains of stuff.

The problems you can encounter from authorities would take more space than there is to post - but I promise you if you are there it will get worse and secondly if your wife is not bloody bright and experienced at handling life in the small business sector of Thailand - FORGET IT. Life with the SME parasites of Thailand - police, local licensing authorities, health officials, sanitation inspectors, etc etc - is particular difficult and at times harrowing..

This is why I love this forum. Expert advice.

I also lived in Nairobi for 3 years, still miss their excellent restaurant scene.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited February 11, 2014 by canuckoverseas

[holeyman1]

Thanks for all the valuable advices

So I'll put my foot down and only get a cook and one more to prep the food and also one wait-staff and see the outcome. I'll only do the sauces!

I agree, good staff are hard to come by and risk having them fly the coup

Will be serving up a collection of food

from asia with the help of local produce

My wife and I both come from a food and beverage background in Hong Kong, Malaysia & singapore and am willing to ride this tsunami (reads willing to loose the invested amount)

Now, looking at pricing of food. Will need to tie in some wholesale vendors to price menu. 15 dishes max.

Since minimum wage is bht 300, what would be considered fair for cook, prep staff and wait-staff?

Thanks

somtam palah

[puppy009loko]

As far as I know a farang in Thailand can't work or sell food as for helping your wife in the restaurant it depends where you opening cause I own an Internet shop in north of Thailand and I also have a marriage visa and I am about to get a new born child and I don't have a work permit but it's me Whois working most of the time in it knowing police station is just 5 meter from my shop.so far no problem but if you are in pattaya it would be very different as the police over there they would like a piece of you.better talk to a high ranking police officer and take guaranty from him against few thousands a month but then I am not sure of the good revenue that would make for you a small restaurant. Why don't you go for a gaming Internet? It will work absolutely great if you find a good location near nui or school or in the middle ofa populated area.up to you this is just my opinion that I was happy to share it with you I hope none of my words did offend u

[CaitlinHappyMeal]

thanks for the replies guys,

wife will not cook, simply supervise as she will be hiring 1-2 "chefs" and 3 wait-staff

which should suffice for 10 tables.

It always makes me smile when so many staff are needed to run a business over here. 3 waiting staff for 10 tables, a blind man should be capable of taking care of 10 tables, we are talking tiny. ?

[meatboy]

thanks for the replies guys,

wife will not cook, simply supervise as she will be hiring 1-2 "chefs" and 3 wait-staff

which should suffice for 10 tables.

It always makes me smile when so many staff are needed to run a business over here. 3 waiting staff for 10 tables, a blind man should be capable of taking care of 10 tables, we are talking tiny. ?

my father used to say,

beware of the big man with small idea's,

the little man with big idea's,

and the man with no idea's.

[elliottm]

You are correct, you are allowed to do nothing for the business whether remunerated or not (look at the Working Aliens Act) without a work permit.

Within a week or so of opening our shoe shop, officials came and took pics of our sign, tax is few hundred baht a year.

You will also need to register the business (amphur, revenue department etc).

No police or thugs have visited us in our 1st month in a small town in central Thailand.

One cousin's child received a free pair of shoes (first meeting since born), other family members got opening discounts commensurate with other customers.

Hope that helps.

[Scarpolo]

Where are you based ?

That may be a factor in some of the costs.

You may well be invited to have a 'red box'. That would involve paying the police 500 Baht + pm. Avoid getting involved with the police at all. Let your wife handle this (and almost all other things).

Signs are charged by the square centimetre. All Thai wording is cheaper than a Thai/Farang mix and just Farang wording is most expensive. Get you wife to speak to the Amphur.

Your wife should know the answer to all these questions as well as what days can't we sell alcohol..

" You may well be invited to have a 'red box' "

is that what those red boxes are for?

I used to live opposite a consulate and I watched as every now and again 2 policeman on a motorbike would pull into the driveway and one would get off and put his hand inside the red box and collect a small envelope. I often used to wonder what that was, and I just assumed it was some kind of neighbourhood watch reporting or something like that.

But why would a consulate need to pay tea money?

"But why would a consulate need to pay tea money?"

I suppose it depends on how you define the payment and the service. When I was young in the US the police or fire men in our community would come around each year selling tickets to a policemen's ball or firemen's dance. Everyone with any sense bought the tickets and most of them didn't attend the dance. Or else they would sell raffle tickets ... whatever. If you didn't buy whatever they were selling, it was always possible the police or firemen would take some wrong turns and get lost responding to an emergency call at your address.

In the US and UK there are various charities that benefit the police and their families. Some businesses and individuals find it useful to make very visible contributions for reasons best known to themselves.

Some shops here, especially gold shops, hire police to sit in the shop during business hours. And in western countries, in some instances off-duty police or retired police are hired to beef-up or supervise security.

Farangs calling it tea money in Thailand seem blind to the "acts of charity" or "good business policies" that are common back in farang utopia ... and of course there is no shortage of actual police bribery in the more "developed" countries as Rupert Murdoch can assure you.

This description sounds more benign than the pukka sahib's use of the term "tea money."

The basic idea behind the boxes is this (and please please jump in if you know more): When a Thai (or community of Thais) feel the extra need to protect their homes or businesses beyond the traditional sleepy security guards, they make an agreement for the local police to come by every so often. At some point in this process a red box is attached to the side of the building in question. And for as many times as they’ve been paid, the local police stop by, open the box, sign a piece of paper to note they’ve been, and then close the box up again.

So all over Thailand (?) police are riding around in tandem, opening red boxes, signing white pieces of paper, and putting them back in the boxes. And getting paid for the service

Read more: http://womenlearnthai.com/index.php/thailands-mysterious-red-boxes/#ixzz2syrHaeH4

Nightclubs in some areas of the USA are REQUIRED to have police present at all operating times; in uniform, if they sell alcohol in residential areas:

this is an undisputable fact, so please, no attacks

what happens here is far different,

the police come, demand money, free services, food, cell phones, w/e they want, and provide nothing in return, other than this I observed in Chaing Mai

Bars stay open until the last straggler leaves and there is nothing on the street except ladyboys, and Australians on scooters seeking them,

however, after hours, they will stay open until they see the police come, then, its the twilight zone, every door comes down, to about 2 feet from the ground, implying you can leave, but you can not enter,

I walked past the police one night, as this was occuring, with a guitar on my back, and as I slipped it under the door, and entered, they said nothing,

I later learned the girl that owns the bar, pays the police, and also offers the bar girls to them, for free....

[Scarpolo]

My partner is an Executive Chef who I meet in Kenya where she was setting up a very up-market Thai restaurant in the capital. Now we have kids she has "retired" from her profession (she had worked in 17 different countries setting up facilities in hotels as well as restaurants) BUT has over the last 6 years back home set up a number small restaurants in and around Bangkok. My advice - it is bloody tough way to make money - competition is fierce and the price of street food is down in the region of margins as thin as a film of oil on water.

The biggest problems - staff - train them and they leave and it doesn't matter how trusting they are when they start - any profit rapidly disappears out the back door. Very few Thais want to work in the trade so you are having to deal with Cambodians and Burmese (he says with a shudder). The only problem bigger are the relatives - who one is initially tempted to trust - they know I'm an expat (even though I'm totally banned from ever appearing at the facility) and believe my wife to be a successful self made businesswoman (which she is) and therefore honour bound to help out on ever single crisis in their side of the family from school fees to unexpected illness. The daily take shrinks, they blame the waitress and finally you discover it's them - now you have a real family problem - accusing an aunt of "theft". If you have had trouble with the ill laws in the past I can promise - you ain't seen nothing until you insist that your partner finally fire your MiL's sister and tell her she's not to ever come by the restaurant again.

I could go on and on but - the only way it has been marginally profitable was because my partner is a total hospitality professional and knows how to maintain stock - buying meat, prawns etc in BULK and spending hours preparing and freezing meal sized portions. It takes real skill to adjust your buying of vegetables to market and meal preference trends - if not you end up throwing away mountains of stuff.

The problems you can encounter from authorities would take more space than there is to post - but I promise you if you are there it will get worse and secondly if your wife is not bloody bright and experienced at handling life in the small business sector of Thailand - FORGET IT. Life with the SME parasites of Thailand - police, local licensing authorities, health officials, sanitation inspectors, etc etc - is particular difficult and at times harrowing..

And let me add,

I am American, and the first few months here insisted on eating at buffets where they catered to foreigners, ie., Swissotel for ex.

Then I met my thai g/f and, I still maintained my eating habits, taking her to places like Fuji, BBQ Plaza, etc., so again, I could eat like I was in the US.

I also visited the Dubliner Pub, near Sukhumvit, which gave me home cooked food, strong drinks, english speaking patrons, and occaisionally very good music, but then.

there were times we would eat "my way" and a few hours later the g/f would say, I am hungry again, I just want to go to the noodel stand on the corner, so off to the noodle stand we went, I watched as she conversed and ordered, and then paid 60 baht, for two plates of food, then another time, 50 baht, then, I would "sample" on her insistence, everything that didnt have pork on some dirty water fish in it, and soon,

I began eating at thai restautants, vietnamese restaurants, and my eating bills starting dropping like mad,

then I moved in w her and shop at Gourmet markets mostly, getting high quality food, and cooking it myself,

We still go to the buffet's, Fuji is still a favorite, and you can eat very cheaply, in air conditioned comfort, and then leisurely stroll thru the air conditioned malls, but last night we were at Huai Kwang market where she buys her creams, and, she took home a ton of food, total cost, maybe 300 baht....

We considered opening a restaurant bar in Chaing Mai, and I still want to do it, but she has been warned off because the only bars there making money, aren't the crowd he wants to be in,

we are now considering a "guest house"

we are told there are no police bribes required and no harrassment, as long as you do not have an actual bar,

you can sell beer from a glass fridge and not get hassled, but, any bars, and they are coming for bribes,

on the positive note,

if you do won a bar, and you do pay the police,

when you do have a problem, the only person they talk to is the owner,

if the owner tells them there is no problem, they leave,

I have watched a group of australians nearly kill two guys in fist fights, where they ganged up on two guys, who didnt have a chance, and someone called the police, nobody moved as the bar owner spoke in thai to the police, whi then got back on their bikes, and left,

in the US everyone would have been harrassed, and someone would have gone to jail, maybe many people,

one thing I have also seen, is the police will come in, and pat everyone down looking for drugs, if they get a call, and usually, someone gets arrested,

not sure of the implications of that here, but serve one underage girl in a bar in the US and kiss your license and your business, goodbye

[metisdead]

A profanity post has been removed as well as the replies. An off topic post has been removed as well as a reply.

[Scarpolo]

I have owned several restaurants in Chiang Mai over the past few years - and 5 staff + wife is definitely OTT for only 10 tables - unless they are just part-time or you intend to pay them a lot less than minimum wage. You won't make any profit. You only need 1 cook and a helper who can help the cook, make drinks and serve the food to the customers + wife helping out when necessary. Police are not interested in a tiny restaurant like that - unless you really annoy someone.

how would you rate your experiences as a restaurant owner in Chiang Mai, and if you were younger, would you do it again now?