Cheua Chaat

[camerata]

Anyone know of a suitable or official English word for cheua chaat other than "nationality of father"?

[taxexile]

ancestry or lineage.

origin or race.

[BambinA]

Race

[Rikker]

Or even "ethnicity".

[meadish_sweetball]

I think 'ethnicity' is the best word.

'Race' is a bit more loaded with negative baggage. Both 'race' and 'ethnicity' are used in translations of the Thai and Lao arrival cards, respectively.

As you probably already know, there is a distinction between 'cheua chaat' and 'san chaat', 'san chaat' more or less corresponding to nationality, whereas 'cheua chaat' is about your origin.

It would be interesting to suss out exactly where the boundaries for 'cheua chaat' go though -

let's say

1. Two French citizens move to Thailand and live here, and later acquire Thai citizenship - then they have a child here.

What would the 'cheua chaat' of the baby be?

2. The baby (male) grows up in Thailand as a Thai citizen, and eventually ends up marrying another Thai citizen with French parents.

What 'cheua chaat' would their baby be?

[Johpa]

I think 'ethnicity' is the best word. ....

let's say

1. Two French citizens move to Thailand and live here, and later acquire Thai citizenship - then they have a child here.

What would the 'cheua chaat' of the baby be?

2. The baby (male) grows up in Thailand as a Thai citizen, and eventually ends up marrying another Thai citizen with French parents.

What 'cheua chaat' would their baby be?

Or try me kids where dad is Farang, and mom speaks Kham Muang as a native tongue, Karen as a mother (and father) tongue. and speaks Central Thai with a slight accent. What is their cheua chaat?

[camerata]

From my experience with Immigration and the local khet office yesterday, I'd say that in general conversation the idea of cheua chaat is race or ethnicity. That's how Thais think of it. But for documentary purposes, it is considered to be the nationality of your father. On your Alien's Book, Residence Certificate or in the records pertaining to your tabien baan, your cheua chaat is supposed to be the same as your father's nationality (although they don't ask for proof of this). So, if your father was Canadian, your cheua chaat must be Canadian. You can't put down "Caucasian" or "Negro" or any other race designation on these particular documents.

[meadish_sweetball]

I guess it makes sense to have a more narrow definition just like you say Camerata.

It must cause a fair amount of confusion for Thai people though, that the popular definition and the legal definition are a bit different.

[sabaijai]

From my experience with Immigration and the local khet office yesterday, I'd say that in general conversation the idea of cheua chaat is race or ethnicity. That's how Thais think of it. But for documentary purposes, it is considered to be the nationality of your father. On your Alien's Book, Residence Certificate or in the records pertaining to your tabien baan, your cheua chaat is supposed to be the same as your father's nationality (although they don't ask for proof of this). So, if your father was Canadian, your cheua chaat must be Canadian. You can't put down "Caucasian" or "Negro" or any other race designation on these particular documents.

I think that even in general conversation some Thais confuse cheua-chaat (ethnicity) with san-chaat (nationality). Highly educated Thai speakers seem to understand the difference immediately but not so the hoi polloi, for whom nationality and ethnicity seem almost inseparable.

[meadish_sweetball]

Asked GF about 'cheua chaat', and her personal interpretation was the nationality of the father AND mother, so that a look khreung would be for example Thai - German... She was very surprised when I told her the official definition.

[sabaijai]

From my experience with Immigration and the local khet office yesterday, I'd say that in general conversation the idea of cheua chaat is race or ethnicity. That's how Thais think of it. But for documentary purposes, it is considered to be the nationality of your father. On your Alien's Book, Residence Certificate or in the records pertaining to your tabien baan, your cheua chaat is supposed to be the same as your father's nationality (although they don't ask for proof of this). So, if your father was Canadian, your cheua chaat must be Canadian. You can't put down "Caucasian" or "Negro" or any other race designation on these particular documents.

This is a clear example of the confusion. Obviously there is no such ethnicity as 'Canadian' (unless you prefer to classify Canada's Amerindian population as 'Canadian', although Amerindian is what anthropologists prefer). So here we see that the official definition of cheua-chaat in fact implies san-chaat or nationality more than it does ethnicity.

Of course even the English terms 'ethnicity' and 'race' are thorny to define, when you get down to it. Is it keyed to language? Skin colour or other physical features?

[bannork]

Of course with globalisation you get all these informal mixes, Issanites who have travelled call themselves, tongue in cheek, Lao Inter. My girlfriend calls me farang- Lao because I like to wear the check shirts and floppy hats of farmers and Issan lottery sellers.

How many generations back does a person's ethnicity go back? When does a Thai- Chinese with grandparents, one or both of Chinese origin, become ethnically Thai?

[bina]

I think that even in general conversation some Thais confuse cheua-chaat (ethnicity) with san-chaat (nationality). Highly educated Thai speakers seem to understand the difference immediately but not so the hoi polloi, for whom nationality and ethnicity seem almost inseparabl

nationality has a real definition: common language, land, and something else forgot what (from anthropology 101, i think, army (including geurilla armies etc)

ethnicity can actually be based somewhat also on genetics (propensity to specific deseases etc)....

hence: i am an american(born to americanized eastern european jews), nationality: jewish(thats what ji always wrote in the states on forms, and what it says on my israeli id card), country : israel, religion: (born jewish practicing budhism), ethnic: ashkenazi (austrohungarian/galicia jewish-- potential tay sachs gene carrier)..... thats the reason so many problems in my little politicized country

let the thai people beware when they start with this, it never ends (the 'who is a jew question for instance' so 'who is a thai?' can become dangerous too!!

a rose by any other name is a flower with a good smell.... who cares what its called...

[camerata]

The reason this came up was because Immigration assumed my cheua chaat was the same as my san chaat. According to their rules, this is not the case if my father has a different nationality. But when I spoke to one officer later, she give me the example that some Chinese insist their cheua chaat is American because they were born in America, but she knows they are Chinese because they have slanty eyes, and they have slanty eyes because their father is Chinese.

So, thinking of Immigration's rules, I said that if that Chinese-American's father was also born in America, the son's cheua chaat would be American. But she said, "No no no... he would still be cheua chaat Chinese because he has slanty eyes and looks Chinese!" Fortunately, another officer on another floor told be not to bother correcting my cheua chaat on documents because TIT and nobody cares and my cheua chaat is almost the same as my san-chaat anyway.

[meadish_sweetball]

So if she was right then, we are back to 'race' I guess.

[samran]

Just to mix it up a bit more, I've always informally translated cheau chat as 'hertiage'. Given that I am more euro looking than not (and to save the arguments with officialdom)I just do with that their pea brains can cope with and what the hua naa will sign off on. Once or twice, I have put 'Irish' as I was very much bought up in the Irish Catholic australian tradition, and that is where my dads forebears came from. For me, Australian is a state of mind anyway given we are a multi-cultural nation (latte anyone?)

I could try Thai/Burmese/chinese/irish/Australian with a hint of spanish, but the poor paper pusher would have a heart attack.

For paperwork purposes, san-chat is always, THAI.