Palm Oil Trees In Issan

[guyshown]

I am sure that there is other post about this already... but has any one planted palm oil trees around Sakon Nakhon?? Thank you in advance

[udon]

See http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...m+oil,or,rubber

[Gary A]

I think the south is a far better place for rubber and palm oil trees. The rainfall in our area (Loei) is just not consistant enough without irrigation. Less than half a kilometer from where we have ten rai a farmer planted a large field with rubber trees just last year. The last I looked at them at least 80 percent had died from lack of rain. The local farmers say that the weather patterns have changed and it now seems like WAY too much at one time or more often than not, not enough.

I had planned on putting in a large pond but have been pretty well convinced that the chance of having a big dry hole was too high for me to try.

[Vegemite]

I think the south is a far better place for rubber and palm oil trees. The rainfall in our area (Loei) is just not consistant enough without irrigation. Less than half a kilometer from where we have ten rai a farmer planted a large field with rubber trees just last year. The last I looked at them at least 80 percent had died from lack of rain. The local farmers say that the weather patterns have changed and it now seems like WAY too much at one time or more often than not, not enough.

I had planned on putting in a large pond but have been pretty well convinced that the chance of having a big dry hole was too high for me to try.

Why doesnt anyone put down a bore and pump it out of the ground?

In a visit to upcountry this year I asked " them that know " if it could be done and was told it could but that it cost a lot.

Water could be found at about 50 meters so I was told. Doesnt seem to deep to me.

Mind you if the numbers for depth are anything like the numbers for time, it could be 150 meters.

[Gary A]

A drilled well is fine except there is no electricity there either. By the time you drill the well and buy a generator to power the pump it would too expensive. It would take too long to recover the costs.

Why doesnt anyone put down a bore and pump it out of the ground?

In a visit to upcountry this year I asked " them that know " if it could be done and was told it could but that it cost a lot.

Water could be found at about 50 meters so I was told. Doesnt seem to deep to me.

Mind you if the numbers for depth are anything like the numbers for time, it could be 150 meters.

[ThaiRanger]

A drilled well is fine except there is no electricity there either. By the time you drill the well and buy a generator to power the pump it would too expensive. It would take too long to recover the costs.

Why doesnt anyone put down a bore and pump it out of the ground?

In a visit to upcountry this year I asked " them that know " if it could be done and was told it could but that it cost a lot.

Water could be found at about 50 meters so I was told. Doesnt seem to deep to me.

Mind you if the numbers for depth are anything like the numbers for time, it could be 150 meters.

Gary A

I drilled a well at my house 15 meters (45 feet) in the village. I want to do the same out in the families rice land where we have a good size pond. I drilled 5 to 10 feet of sandy soil and 5 meters of rock (Sandstone maybe) beneath that plenty of cold clear water. The water appears high in calcium but not salty(Na+) in fact I measured the conductivity and my water was better than the town water and equal to rain water. I water most all my houseplants and veggies with it but wife and son refuse to wash the car because of residue from Ca++. It only cost me 3000 baht for drilling (Two Days ) 3" hole (to small 4 to 5 inches required). and about another 3000 baht for pump. I did not run dry last dry season. The water rises to within 1-2 metres of ground level. The driller was very poor and did not even plumb his rig. He also was totally ignorant of pumps recipocating or jet. That was my fault because I did not investgate sufficiently before had him start work. The main problem is that you may go 1 Km away or less and find salt. Loei is generally higher elevation than I am in Ban Prang Amphur Kong. I would tend to believe that would enhance your water quality but also the depth of your well would increase but not necessarily. You may even get an artesian effect from near by hills. I do think there has been a comprehensive hydrological survey of the Korat Plateau. However I have not seen one. I think the US military did some studies and drilling in the 60's and 70's.

Gary sorry for the rant but I was interested in your knowledge of farming. I am not a farmer but from origanally New Hampshire and now Texas. I am a interested observer of my son who is an accomplished rice, fruit trees and veggies farmer (Green Thumb we would say) We have jointly invested in some cows I am just the curious type.

Thai Ranger

[soap]

please correct me if i am wrong, i was told a pump

could only pump water up from about 9 to eleven metres down.

laws of gravity etc

[iono]

IIt only cost me 3000 baht for drilling (Two Days ) 3" hole (to small 4 to 5 inches required). and about another 3000 baht for pump.

What I was quoted 12,000 for the drillig of a well and anything between 12,000 and 15,000 for a pump, we would pay a local to come in with his tractor and pump or rice fields to avoid lugging a battery around. This would be near the Nong Ban Lamphu area? Dam am I stupid or what?

[ThaiRanger]

please correct me if i am wrong, i was told a pump

could only pump water up from about 9 to eleven metres down.

laws of gravity etc

Soap

Your are right a reciprocating pump can only lift water 32 feet max. However my pump is not even that deep even the though well was drilled deeper. Because the driller did not drill the well plumb and it was only 3" in diameter my original jet pump could not actually penatrate in to the unlimited water reservoir below the 15 meters. I had no problem the first ten meters because I have a 3" plastic pipe liner down the hole until it got to the sandstone because the well was not plump I could not get the jet pump (12-16" long bronze with two hose fittings (up line 1.5 " dia and one down line 1" in diameter and safet cable 1/4") into the reservoir. A jet pump will pump from a deeper well because of their design to force water down one pipe and get the venturi effect of the jet valve at the bottom. This allows water to be pumped from jet pumps from greater depths (220') as will electrically driven submesible pumps (1000'+). My driller(Thai) wanted me to cut off the second line on the jet pump because he had never seen one before. He only knew reciprocating pumps that work only on vacuum from the pump. a perfect vacumm being 32' of water (760mm HG). Because I could not actually get my jet pump into the reservior and the high volume that a jet pump can pump compared to a recipocating pump I was able to pump the 3" diameter 10 Meter Plastic liner dry in seconds. Once this happened I loss prime on the pump because the well was dry. untill the water could refill the the stand. I therefore had to go with the recipcating pump at 10 meters approximately with a standing head above the pump of 8 feet with a 3" diameter. As long as my well can refill the water as fast as or faster than the pump can pump then my ricprocating pump the well will remain primed and will countinue to pump as it has for the last two years.

Please feel free to come see my operation I am sure that there are better ways to do most everything and I will most welcome your imput. Above ground I have a stoage tank and Mistubshi tankless pump to provide water perssure to both floors of my house. I do not drink the water(only beer if I must) but probably could if I had an ultraviolet bactiera system and carbon filtration or an expensive Reverse Osmosis system of course.

Thai Ranger

[Gary A]

Everything is a big risk. There is a lot of salt that you are likely to hit and how deep you would have to go is another guess. A deep well needs an expensive powerful submersible pump. Being out in the boonies the temptation to steal that pump may be too great for the people who know it is there.

[chownah]

ThaiRanger,

Reciprocating pumps are not very efficient....and I think they cost more than centrifugal pumps and cost more in maintenance. I think that the centrifugal pump is a better choice. I can't think of an advantage for reciprocating pumps and have always wondered why you see them for sale. Am I missing something?

[ThaiRanger]

ThaiRanger,

Reciprocating pumps are not very efficient....and I think they cost more than centrifugal pumps and cost more in maintenance. I think that the centrifugal pump is a better choice. I can't think of an advantage for reciprocating pumps and have always wondered why you see them for sale. Am I missing something?

Chownah

You are exactly correct. Not a pump man myself. Reciprocating pumps are cheap initially but are limited by depth of well. I am not sure on initial cost of a centrifugal pump because I went the cheap way to start. (3"bore poor quality driller, etc) but it was fast and I still have water. Before I invest in my sons land I will be do more research as your post and others have valuably provided. I have replaced gaskets once last year and ready for another repair this year but labor in parts are cheap. Centrifugal pumps, jet pumps or ram pumps are better but the technology and local expertise falls rapidly as the technology increases. Submersibles are vunerable to the local kamoys as Gary A stated. The only advantage would be the depth of the device and strength that would be required to pull a pump and hoses full of water from 500 feet or more in the middle of the night.

Keep the info coming

Thai Ranger

[naka]

Unlikely Oil Palm would do well in Loei, too far north, not enough rainfall.

What would you then do with the fruit ? It needs to be processed within 24 hours

otherwise it will rot.

Oil Palm Info

Irrigation does not sound feasible due to the distances between the trees.

Temperature : Roughly 22 to 32 degrees centigrade.

Rainfall : Minimum of 30 inches or not less than 2000 mm,

with fairly even distribution throughout the year.

Sunlight : 5 hours per day or 2000 hours annually.

Ideal Soil : Flat, heavy, water-retaining alluvial soil.

Plant Density : 120 to 150 seedlings per hectare or 128 seedlings at a spacing of 9.5 meters

More Here

Naka.

[udon]

Has anyone checked out Jatropha Curcas?

Inedible but a great source for Biodiesel.

Ideal for the Isaan climate & soil...

[udon]

BkkPost

PTT Plc, Toyota and Kasetsart University have joined forces to develop biodiesel from jatropha curcas for motor vehicles.

The parties yesterday signed an agreement worth 32 million baht for joint research and development of the biodiesel.

Under the agreement, Kasetsart University will select the variety of jatropha curcas plants and cultivation method. Toyota will support the state university with a fund of 5.6 million baht, three Hilux Vigo pickup trucks, four diesel engines and other components and parts worth 4.4 million baht for testing.

The Toyota Technical Center will supply components and parts of vehicles for testing and other technical support, costing about four million baht.

PTT will provide 18 million baht to test and analyse the quality of biodiesel and assess the use of jatropha-based biodiesel with all vehicle systems.

***************

News Extract:

Jatropha plant has been identified as suitable plant for producing bio-diesel under the Thai climatic conditions. It can be grown in semi-arid conditions, tolerate scanty to heavy rainfall and has low moisture demands.

The plant can withstand long periods of drought and can also grown on stony and shallow soil. The Jatropha tree begins to yield oil sheeds by the third year of its plantation and continue to bear fruit for about 25-50 years.

Bio-deisel can be extracted from the oilsheeds by expelling as well as by solvent extraction, the residue materials left is protien rich organic manure. Bio-diesel is a high-octane non edible vegitable oil which is completely combustible, completes the carbon dioxide cycle and has inbuilt oxygen content, it added.

[Gary A]

I did do some research on this crop and it seems perfect for marginal land and limited rainfall. Unfortunately there is TOO much information available. There are even forums warning of the toxic nature of this crop. Is there anything to it? I don't really know but the plant is regarded as a toxic weed in many places and is difficult to get rid of. It is accused of being a potent carcinogen as well as causing serious skin problems. Why is nothing simple?

Has anyone checked out Jatropha Curcas?

Inedible but a great source for Biodiesel.

Ideal for the Isaan climate & soil...

[timber]

Quote"According to Ochse (1980), "the young leaves may be safely eaten, steamed or stewed." They are favored for cooking with goat meat, said to counteract the peculiar smell. Though purgative, the nuts are sometimes roasted and dangerously eaten. In India, pounded leaves are applied near horses' eyes to repel flies. The oil has been used for illumination, soap, candles, adulteration of olive oil, and making Turkey red oil. Nuts can be strung on grass and burned like candlenuts (Watt and Breyer-Brandwijk, 1962). Mexicans grow the shrub as a host for the lac insect. Ashes of the burned root are used as a salt substitute (Morton, 1981). Agaceta et al. (1981) conclude that it has strong molluscicidal activity. Duke and Wain (1981) list it for homicide, piscicide, and raticide as well. The latex was strongly inhibitory to watermelon mosaic virus (Tewari and Shukla, 1982). Bark used as a fish poison (Watt and Breyer-Brandwijk, 1962). In South Sudan, the seed as well as the fruit is used as a contraceptive (List and Horhammer, 1969–1979). Sap stains linen and can be used for marking (Mitchell and Rook, 1979). Little, Woodbury, and Wadsworth (1974) list the species as a honey plant. "

[timber]

Another interesting quote from an articles. "'Are you aware that four seeds of Jatropha can take life of normal person? It is true. Jatropha seeds are very poisonous. Unfortunately it is under promotion in countries like India. The seeds are good in taste and this taste encourages the children to consume it. We have observed that as the Jatropha plantation is increasing the incidences of Jatropha poisoning are increasing. It is not a good sign. The toxic nature of its seeds have been reported.

'Toxicity

The poisoning is irritant, with acute abdominal pain and nausea about 1/2 hour following ingestion. Diarrhea and nausea continue but are not usually serious. Depression and collapse may occur, especially in children. Two seeds are strong purgative. Four to five seed are said to have caused death, but the roasted seed is said to be nearly innocuous. Bark, fruit, leaf, root, and wood are all reported to contain HCN (Watt and Breyer-Brandwijk, 1962). Seeds contain the dangerous toxalbumin curcin, rendering them potentially fatally toxic.'

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_en...s.html#Toxicity

Please protect your children from this exotic plant.In many states Jatropha is planted in school compounds and in surroundings of ponds.

Pankaj Oudhia"

[timber]

I think the last quote was from someone who was a bit of an extremist. There are many things in this world that can cause you harm or kill you if you eat them. The articles indicate that there should be some caution. Indian is growing a lot I think and eating the seeds hasn't been a problem. Eating rocks can hurt your teeth also.

[timber]

Crop production

MT/ha Fuel product /ha Energetic equivalent kwh/ha

Elaeis guineensis 18–20 3,600–4,000 33,900–37,700

Jatropha curcas 6–8 2,100–2,800 19,800–26,400

Aleurites fordii 4–6 1,800–2,700 17,000–25,500

Saccharum officinarum 3-5 2,450 16,000

Ricinus communis 3–5 1,200–2,000 11,300–18,900

Manihot eaculenta 6 1,020 6,600

[udon]

I did do some research on this crop and it seems perfect for marginal land and limited rainfall. Unfortunately there is TOO much information available. There are even forums warning of the toxic nature of this crop. Is there anything to it? I don't really know but the plant is regarded as a toxic weed in many places and is difficult to get rid of. It is accused of being a potent carcinogen as well as causing serious skin problems. Why is nothing simple?

Has anyone checked out Jatropha Curcas?

Inedible but a great source for Biodiesel.

Ideal for the Isaan climate & soil...

Gary, it's known as the "bellyache bush" in Aus and regarded as a weed/pest, in some areas.

As animals don't like to eat it, it was originally grown for it's use as a barrier hedge in India, Africa, et al..

[lannarebirth]

ThaiRanger,

Reciprocating pumps are not very efficient....and I think they cost more than centrifugal pumps and cost more in maintenance. I think that the centrifugal pump is a better choice. I can't think of an advantage for reciprocating pumps and have always wondered why you see them for sale. Am I missing something?

Reciprocating pumps are used when a greater head is required. Centrifugul pump capacities drop considerbly as you pump water up a hill. Reciprocating pumps do not, as they are "positive displacement" piston pumps. each "slug" of water pushes the next one up the line. Even uphill.

[lannarebirth]

I did do some research on this crop and it seems perfect for marginal land and limited rainfall. Unfortunately there is TOO much information available. There are even forums warning of the toxic nature of this crop. Is there anything to it? I don't really know but the plant is regarded as a toxic weed in many places and is difficult to get rid of. It is accused of being a potent carcinogen as well as causing serious skin problems. Why is nothing simple?

Has anyone checked out Jatropha Curcas?

Inedible but a great source for Biodiesel.

Ideal for the Isaan climate & soil...

Gary, it's known as the "bellyache bush" in Aus and regarded as a weed/pest, in some areas.

As animals don't like to eat it, it was originally grown for it's use as a barrier hedge in India, Africa, et al..

I grow about 200 trees of Sabudam or Jatropha in the hills near Chinag Mai. I'm just eperimenting with it. I'm not as yet convinced that it's not more costly to grow and harvest, than just buying the diesel. I wouldn't worry about toxicity. It's grown everywhere in Thailand as living fences.

[timber]

Nice to see someone working with Jathopha. Read a lot but not sure how real it was. I understand it isn't too hard to grow but harvesting is a bit of pain. I think if you have a bit of land grow a jathropha hedge and make biodiesel out ot the fruit. It really isn't that hard to make biodiesel that will run 100 percent in any diesel engine since 1993. You just have to make sure you do it right. You can make it in the garage.

[poorfarmer]

Jatropha Curcas......"Saboo Dam"

Yes on my research with friends at Kasetsart University ,Kampengsean campus. We run biodiesel from Jatropha Curcas in a small refinery. And more than 2000 rai plantation of this plant on site experimenting at Kampensean. If u wanna know technology of separation and washing of biodesel under Thai energy standards(base on USA std.) Can contract biodiesel centre at ku. kampengsean campus.

In issan area, the soil type is sandylome and less in soil fertilzer, then palm oil is ok for growing there but the moisture content is unsuitable. The yield of oil v. from this plant in isaan area less than growing at east or south.

From..thaiverypoorfarmer

[udon]

poorfarmer

Welcome to Thai Visa.

Do you know when KU are having their Open Day in February?

[timber]

thaiverypoorfarmer,

When you say contact biodiesel centre at ku. kampengsean campus how do you mean that? Go and see directly or do they have a website? hmmm... probably in English. Do you have any good web sites in English to recommend? In a couple of years hope to do some work with bio-diesel. Have read a lot and my wife has some oil palm down south. Hope to move their in a couple of years. Some good information. Thanks. It sounds like they are making some breakthroughs on the use of bio-mass for ethenol. This may change things a bit if they get a good handle on it. Coming from a heavy equipment background I think bio-diesel is the best solution in the short term.

[Maizefarmer]

Checkout:

www.jatropha.de/Thailand/index.htm

At the bottom of the page is a link to a document which contains a rather good study - specifically aginst the background of Thai conditions.

You will need to download a copy of Winrar (any Winrar programme will do - not just the one advertised) to open it.

You will see the theory is somewhat different from reality - look at it like this:

1 hectare (about 6-7rai) will give you about 400kg of biodiesel per year or about 6-7 tankfuls for the average pickup (and that is with everything working just right based on around 4kg of seed to 1kg of biodiesel).

Compare the cost of diesel to the cost of producing that and ask yourself how much you need to produce per year a) for your own consumption, and then for it to be economically viable as a farm crop or business project.

Tim

Edited September 19, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[timber]

Thanks Maizefarmer it is good to know Thailand is doing something like this. There are a lot of advantages to using Jathropha as a hedge which would normally be nonproductive ground. If you have some land a jatropha hedge could fuel your farm equipment.

[poorfarmer]

poorfarmer

Welcome to Thai Visa.

Do you know when KU are having their Open Day in February?

Thx u very much Udon.

Ku campus at Kampangsean will have open Day in Dec,4-9 of this year But Ku (central=main) in Bkk at Bangkhen area will have open day at the end of Jan till 5 of Feb. next year.

Welcome u to see the innovations of renewable energy made by bio-mass from plants, animals and others.

Udon, if you need guide I will let you see our technologies(biodiesel processing, gasohol blending , 100% palm oil for automobile diesel engine or biogas(CH4) from pig farm. I mean personal contract but in official.

From your nice Thai Friendly, hope you will be happy by our attend services.

Note: Pls contact me by e-mail.